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Source: (consider it) Thread: I call all homophobes to Hell - especially Russ
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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Russ can fuck himself. His self-revulsion as a result should be impressive.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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I don't usually post smilies in Hell, though that might change if the vomit smiley reappears. I don't usually post smileys anywhere. For Eliab, though?

[Overused] [Overused] [Overused]

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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[Projectile]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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Wasn't there a different one with a daisy before?

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

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It is amusing that the Russ attitude on how to treat minorities as defective, corrupted, and permissible to shame into silence is likely to come back at him.
He's already in a minority now; as witness the recent vote. And we know that once Gay people are visible more and more people realize there's nothing wrong with them as neighbors. The turds like Russ become an embarrassing minority and there are these handy precedents for how to treat such defective minorities.

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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You may be interested to know that if you google image "impressive testicles", literally the first result is Tom Cruise in a tuxedo. Make of that what you will ...

Someone thought he was a scale model?
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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All of you back off Eliab. I already asked him to marry me several years ago, and the response got Quotes Filed.
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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It is amusing that the Russ attitude on how to treat minorities as defective, corrupted, and permissible to shame into silence is likely to come back at him.

There is a huge difference 'tho. Russ chooses his attitudes and could change them at any time. He knows folk can be converted from wrong paths. So all that's needed now is the motivation for him (and his like) to do so.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
All of you back off Eliab. I already asked him to marry me several years ago, and the response got Quotes Filed.

Queer fool: marriages still have the fundamental attribute of being voluntary. Eliab's marital status with you (or anyone else) is not necessarily an impediment to him having his impressively-testicled way with the rest of us - his adoring harem.
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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[Mad] Combed back 15 pages of the Quotes File a still couldn't find the damn quote.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I think you might want this post.

Took me a couple of minutes to find.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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It's here - unless they've done this more than once.

(Search in print form, find the date)

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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You're not supposed to say how to find things. You're supposed to leave them in awe of your nearly miraculous searching ability.

Besides, I got there first [Razz]

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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LOL - I was trying to get dressed because I should have left for work, which didn't help.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631

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So, despite my teeny post count, I have been a daily lurker for far too many years...

...and TODAY was the first time I ever realised that the Quotes File is an actual real THING and not just something people say.


Clearly I don't hang out at The Circus enough.

*hangs head in shame*

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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Come join us, we're fab amd we have clown shoes [Big Grin]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Russ
Old salt
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I think you object to giving people who disgust you equal status with yourself.

I don't think that's quite Russ's objection here. I think, in a very section 28-style way, he's objecting to the "promotion of the homosexual lifestyle". I think:

1. Russ thinks "being a practicing homosexual" is bad.

2. Russ divides people into three groups - the irredeemably gay, the straight, and those who could go either way.

3. Russ is prepared to tolerate the first of these three groups being gay in private.

4. Because of 1, Russ thinks it would be wrong to provide the third group with any encouragement to be gay. From this follow most of his desires to restrict the behaviour of gay people.

He doesn't want to make being gay low-status because he finds being gay disgusting; he wants to make being gay low-status because he's worried that being gay is catching.

Russ - am I close?

Pretty close, Leorning Cnight.

At least three groups, one of which is the born gays, and one of which is the "confused or going through a phase" people who have the capability to find heterosexual fulfilment. And who will get there with a little bit of encouragement to stay on the straight narrow path...

If I were a drunkard, then my drunkenness would be something you might tolerate as long as it doesn't harm others. But if I were encouraging vulnerable young people to excessive drinking, in order to feel better about my own state, you might think that action reprehensible.

Yes, a few of that "confused" group may turn out to be "born gays" who don't know it yet. So the message needs to be nuanced enough to address their needs also.

In terms of "restricting the behaviour of gay people" I don't want to do that. Beyond the minimum necessary to:
- avoid misleading the vulnerable (which is the point you're addressing here)
- be discrete (with just an ordinary everyday politeness in respect of what others find disgusting)
- not obstruct research into possible causes and cure
- not offend those with a "higher" view of sacraments than mine by taking in vain the name of one of the sacraments of the Christian religion .

People should be as free as possible to choose the course of their own lives. The "born gays" should have equal legal rights, including the right to form a civil contract which gives partnered gay couples the same legal rights., tax status etc as married couples. I'm not looking to oppress anyone...

Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
At least three groups, one of which is the born gays, and one of which is the "confused or going through a phase" people who have the capability to find heterosexual fulfilment. And who will get there with a little bit of encouragement to stay on the straight narrow path...

...

Yes, a few of that "confused" group may turn out to be "born gays" who don't know it yet. So the message needs to be nuanced enough to address their needs also.

So you need to address the needs of all, how do you offer encouragement to those who are "born gays" in the confused group to stay on their own path? Your position appears inconsistent - you can't offer encouragement to some and not others if you also want to address the needs of all. The word for that sort of action is discrimination. You either actively encourage all to find out their own path, or let them find their path without any sort of interference or encouragement to any particular path.

quote:

If I were a drunkard, then my drunkenness would be something you might tolerate as long as it doesn't harm others. But if I were encouraging vulnerable young people to excessive drinking, in order to feel better about my own state, you might think that action reprehensible.

Oh, look another analogy using an irrelevant example.
[Disappointed]

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Annnnnd... Pat Robertson predicted that LGBT rights may cause God to wreck the US economy. (Huffpost)

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Russ:

Hi. Would you respond to this, please? You haven't yet.

Thx.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Russ--

As I and other posters have mentioned, the way you feel about LGBT is the way many people have felt about the Irish in America. Not normal, not quite human, unclean, don't let them into your store because they'll steal, don't marry one, don't hire one, don't let them live near you, don't let them be seen, don't let them breed. If you have the option, drive 'em away.

Were the anti-Irish folks right to treat them that way? People are *born* Irish. It's not a choice, unless someone marries in.

If the anti-Irish folks were wrong, then what about your posted thoughts about homosexuals and how they should behave??
[Confused]



--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Russ will you at least accpet that your vision of gay sexual identity as a disability is a function of your religious beliefs ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think you might want this post.

Took me a couple of minutes to find.

If I weren't already in awe of your abilities - that would do it.

As for Eliab - it's obvious from the few times he has quoted his daughter that she has studied at the feet of a Master.

[Overused]

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... be discrete (with just an ordinary everyday politeness in respect of what others find disgusting)...

You first. And learn the difference between discreet and discrete, you ignorant leprechaun-blowing mick.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Or, we can just keep on picking apart his arguments one point at a time.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Or, we can just keep on picking apart his arguments one point at a time.

What arguments?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Authoritative discourse on the nature of arguments.

I'm not implying anything about the quality of the arguments Russ has produced.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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There needs to be quality before anything can be implied about it.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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So, we can find no discrete statements* to pick apart?

 

* to avoid any implication that what Russ has stated constitutes an argument, even of the lowest quality

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... be discrete (with just an ordinary everyday politeness in respect of what others find disgusting)...

You first. And learn the difference between discreet and discrete, you ignorant leprechaun-blowing mick.
I Would steer well away from allowing Russ to claim he's being persecuted. That would please him. Poor wee Russ who only ever wishes everyone well but is so sorely misunderstood.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, we can find no discrete statements* to pick apart?

 

* to avoid any implication that what Russ has stated constitutes an argument, even of the lowest quality

Lots of analogies, and repeated but never supported claims that homosexuals are subhuman in some hard-to-elicit way, kinda like deaf people or child molesters or like that. Nothing that comes anywhere near an argument. Monty Python would blush.

[ 07. November 2015, 04:58: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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{Cue announcer. Announcer is poked with pool stick.}

And, by way of illustration of argument, the Monty Python Argument Room sketch.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
If I were a drunkard

What do you mean, if? It's the only excuse you have left for carrying on this offensive nonsense, and even then, most normal people don't become homophobic when drunk.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
most normal people don't become homophobic when drunk.

On the contary, I seen men throw their arms around each other and declare undying love when hopelessly influenced by alcohol .

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And, by way of illustration of argument, the Monty Python Argument Room sketch.

What is it with Johnny-come-latelies lately? The authoritative nature of Monty Python in the nature of arguments has already been stated.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Sorry. Just thought it would be fun to have access to the actual skit, and not just mention it. I did see MT's reference. I just happen to like this particular sketch.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
most normal people don't become homophobic when drunk.

On the contary, I seen men throw their arms around each other and declare undying love when hopelessly influenced by alcohol .
Perhaps that's Russ' problem then.

He's not drunk enough. Bottle of Jamesons, stat.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Sorry. Just thought it would be fun to have access to the actual skit, and not just mention it. I did see MT's reference. I just happen to like this particular sketch.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

I was not referring to anything mousethief said, you snotty faced heap of parrot droppings. Read back a few posts you vacuous toffee nosed malodorous pervert.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I'm sorry. Arguments are next door. This is insults.


You tit.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Your type really makes me puke.

I prefer sans-serif.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Alan--

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Sorry. Just thought it would be fun to have access to the actual skit, and not just mention it. I did see MT's reference. I just happen to like this particular sketch.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

I was not referring to anything mousethief said, you snotty faced heap of parrot droppings. Read back a few posts you vacuous toffee nosed malodorous pervert.
{Stuffed penguin on top of computer explodes.}

I have a theory, and it is my theory, and it is mine: that if Poster 1 posts a link to "[a]n authoritative reference on the subject of arguments" with no further label other than an You Tube URL, Poster 2 may not follow the link--particularly if Poster 2 had only dial-up connection until a year ago, and never got into the habit of following You Tube links. My theory.

{Wanders off to a fish-slapping rave, watching flying sheep along the way.}

[ 08. November 2015, 05:13: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
My theory.

'Tisn't.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
'Tisn't.

is

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Isn't.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Drifting Star

Drifting against the wind
# 12799

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

I have a theory, and it is my theory, and it is mine: that if Poster 1 posts a link to "[a]n authoritative reference on the subject of arguments" with no further label other than an You Tube URL, Poster 2 may not follow the link--particularly if Poster 2 had only dial-up connection until a year ago, and never got into the habit of following You Tube links. My theory.

{Wanders off to a fish-slapping rave, watching flying sheep along the way.}

Those with crappy broadband speeds love your theory, and they love those who post links to text rather than video.

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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus

Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Well, it was meant to be watched, not read.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Russ will you at least accpet that your vision of gay sexual identity as a disability is a function of your religious beliefs ?

Yes, I think it's very much tied up with religion.

If you hold the sort of worldview that denies any objective reality to values, so that "good" means no more than something that the speaker happens to like, then how could you agree that perversion is not good ? That would then be only a statement of personal taste. And if somebody gets their kicks out of having their genitals nailed to a plank, then that's "good" for them and no-one else has grounds for making any sort of judgment at all.

The sense that there is such a thing as a good life, or a good society, is to do with religion (in the broad sense).

Eliab has expressed a couple of times his tolerance of and willingness to see the good in the type of religious people who take a low view of homosexuality on the grounds of religious authority. Even though he disagrees with that view.

But I believe neither in the absence of objective value, nor in objective value as dictated by an inscrutable Deity, but rather in a morality written into Creation to which we can observe and reason our way.

Otherwise, what are we doing here on this thread ?

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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I don't think that being here is necessarily about the 'morality written into creation', since I don't really understand what that means. If it means that gay people are castigated as not being written into creation, then no. It sounds retro-engineered to me.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

The sense that there is such a thing as a good life, or a good society, is to do with religion (in the broad sense).

Eliab has expressed a couple of times his tolerance of and willingness to see the good in the type of religious people who take a low view of homosexuality on the grounds of religious authority. Even though he disagrees with that view.

But I believe neither in the absence of objective value, nor in objective value as dictated by an inscrutable Deity, but rather in a morality written into Creation to which we can observe and reason our way.

Otherwise, what are we doing here on this thread ?

That's a fascinating view Russ - to explore it further I have started a new thread in Purg -
here.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
But I believe neither in the absence of objective value, nor in objective value as dictated by an inscrutable Deity, but rather in a morality written into Creation to which we can observe and reason our way.

And, so far your "reason" amounts to you find it icky.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Russ:

Hi. Would you respond to this, please? You haven't yet.

Thx.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Russ--

As I and other posters have mentioned, the way you feel about LGBT is the way many people have felt about the Irish in America. Not normal, not quite human, unclean, don't let them into your store because they'll steal, don't marry one, don't hire one, don't let them live near you, don't let them be seen, don't let them breed. If you have the option, drive 'em away.

Were the anti-Irish folks right to treat them that way? People are *born* Irish. It's not a choice, unless someone marries in.

If the anti-Irish folks were wrong, then what about your posted thoughts about homosexuals and how they should behave??
[Confused]


Hi Golden Key.

Seems to me that what you're talking about here is prejudice. Which is to say pre-judging. The injustice of sticking a negative label ("dirty", "dishonest", "stupid", "lazy", whatever) on an individual based on a distorted perception of the group to which they belong, and then reacting to that label rather than to the characteristics of the individual.

I hope that you and I and everyone else don't have to be able to identify with the group in question to see the unfairness of that.

But conversely, cultures and subcultures do have characteristics. It's widely accepted here in Ireland that Irish culture has more of a problem with alcohol than some other cultures do.

So that, for example, when appointing a barman, a landlord has to strike a balance between being fair to an Irish candidate (by not assuming that his Irish origin automatically indicates a drink problem, which would be pre-judging the individual) and being fair to the business (by considering the risk that this in fact the case).

Presumably you're raising this point to say that people who self-present as homosexual are frequently subject to prejudice ?

Which negative group-labels do you think individual homosexuals are innocent of ?

And what connection do you see between those specific prejudices and the argument I've been putting forward ?

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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