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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: I call all homophobes to Hell - especially Russ
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Discussing the various moral permutations of curing sexual orientation is as misguided as contemplating cures for hair colour. Stop pretending that there is harm in people being what they are - in loving ways - when the primary objections is that your personal preference is something else.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Did you deliberately compare deafness to homosexuality? Because there is an ongoing debate within the Deaf community about cochlear implants and deaf identity. Many deaf people do not choose to change when given the option. They don't see deafness as a disability or defect, but as a different identity.
It is kinda both. Deafness is a defect or damage but, like many things, becomes part of who we are. Some feel the need for change and some do not.
However, that need is very often driven by the lack of acceptance by the outside. That is what needs to change.
One problem in this discussion is the persistence of viewing homosexuality as a defect or a negative.
Another is that different is bad.
ETA: Partially x-posted with a much better summation.
[ 16. August 2015, 15:24: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... Consent is an important part of modern thinking. But the idea of consent assumes that those involved are "functioning adults". We don't allow paedophiles to invoke consent as the defence for their actions. ...
RUSS: ENOUGH WITH THE PEDOPHILE ANALOGIES. Just. Fucking. Stop. Jeezus H. Tapdancing Christ, it's like there's an additional Godwin's law for homophobes.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... Consent is an important part of modern thinking. But the idea of consent assumes that those involved are "functioning adults". We don't allow paedophiles to invoke consent as the defence for their actions. ...
Are you saying that gays are incapable of giving consent? Are not functioning adults? If not, what in the hell does this have to do with the conversation? Is this just a way of dragging in a gratuitous comparison between gays and pedophiles?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Russ, your ability to be offensive seemingly knows no bounds. The reason we don't allow paedophiles to invoke consent as the defence for their actions is because there isn't consent!
For heaven's sake man! That makes about as much sense as saying "we don't allow eaters of ball bearings to invoke nutrition as a reason for their actions". Or "we don't allow having a license to be an excuse for unlicensed drivers".
[ 16. August 2015, 23:21: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... Consent is an important part of modern thinking. But the idea of consent assumes that those involved are "functioning adults". We don't allow paedophiles to invoke consent as the defence for their actions. ...
Are you saying that gays are incapable of giving consent? Are not functioning adults? If not, what in the hell does this have to do with the conversation? Is this just a way of dragging in a gratuitous comparison between gays and pedophiles?
Reading along, and thought exactly what mt has just said here. Why insert this ridiculous failure of an analogy? Are you trying to be offensive, Russ? Or are you just stupid?
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Russ--
A) Do you consider all inborn defects, mutations, disabilities, major differences, etc. to be equally bad?
B) Is being gay as bad as, say, having Down Syndrome or being a conjoined twin?
C) Is your view common where you live?
(Just trying to sketch out parameters.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Are you trying to be offensive, Russ? Or are you just stupid?
I called 'insufferable arsehat' back on page 1. I see no reason to change my mind yet.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Both naive and vicious, I thought. Is this a Christian thing? I guess not.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I called 'insufferable arsehat' back on page 1.
Is that a defect that can be treated?
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I called 'insufferable arsehat' back on page 1.
Is that a defect that can be treated?
It's chosen.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... Consent is an important part of modern thinking. But the idea of consent assumes that those involved are "functioning adults". We don't allow paedophiles to invoke consent as the defence for their actions. ...
Are you saying that gays are incapable of giving consent? Are not functioning adults? If not, what in the hell does this have to do with the conversation? Is this just a way of dragging in a gratuitous comparison between gays and pedophiles?
I think he walked into that one accidentally. He was trying to say babies don't give consent to being "treated" with eugenics. It just so happens to parallel another point he's arguing against.
OOPS.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
He was trying to say babies don't give consent to being "treated" with eugenics.
Something like that.
I'm saying that there are circumstances in which people are very very sure that children are unable to give consent until their mid-teens.
Therefore for anything to do with their development to adulthood, their consent is necessarily absent, and their parents have the duty and responsibility to decide in the child's interest.
So objecting to a move from childhood medicine and formation by education to genetic medicine and formation by genetic selection on the grounds that the child cannot consent doesn't seem to me to hold water. There may be good arguments against. That isn't one of them.
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The problem with this train of thought for homosexuality is that we won't know until the children can express themselves whether they are homosexual or not. The sorts of brain differences that can be detected have often been investigated post-mortem. For homosexuality to be detectable the child will have an opinion.
It's not comparable with something like a cleft palate, which is obvious immediately, and if left untreated can cause problems swallowing, eating and speaking so that there are good reasons to operate as soon as possible.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
it's like there's an additional Godwin's law for homophobes.
Apt comparison. Godwin notwithstanding, it's really useful to be able to trot out cases which everyone agrees involve real wrongdoing, as counter-examples to point up fallacious arguments.
For example if Orfeo were to say "homosexuality is morally neutral because it is innate" and I were to reply "isn't paedophilia innate ?" he might then realise that, whatever example he was thinking of at the time, it's not actually a logically valid argument.
It's useful precisely because everyone agrees that Nazism, paedophilia etc are Bad Things. It's something we can take for granted, and we don't then get sidetracked into questions of whether perhaps Hitler wasn't quite as bad as he's been painted... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
READ THE WORDS. If I say "consent is important" I am not drawing a similarity between consensual and non-consensual acts. I'm saying there is a difference, this is the difference, it is a big important difference.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
For example if Orfeo were to say "homosexuality is morally neutral because it is innate" and I were to reply "isn't paedophilia innate ?" he might then realise that, whatever example he was thinking of at the time, it's not actually a logically valid argument.
I am heartily sick of you attempting to clothe your idiocy by placing me in your examples. Kindly don't make it worse by sticking words in my mouth.
You don't fucking need to. It would be perfectly possible to make your arguments without using anybody's name in them.
You know, at the time this thread started I merely thought you were a bit stupidly misguided. But as it goes on you are increasingly showing yourself to be incapable of stringing many words together before you put your foot in it one way or another. It's coming down to two possibilities: you are so unbelievingly tone-deaf that you have no idea how you come across, or you just don't give a shit how you come across.
READ THE WORDS. PREFERABLY BEFORE POSTING THEM.
[ 17. August 2015, 23:01: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Also if this was supposed to get across "consent is important":
quote:
Consent is an important part of modern thinking. But the idea of consent assumes that those involved are "functioning adults". We don't allow paedophiles to invoke consent as the defence for their actions.
then you did a bloody poor job. "Modern thinking"? Frankly, Russ, that comes across as you dismissing the importance of consent. No-one around here would ever think you were positively associated with modern thinking. And why the quote marks on "functioning adults"? As several people have pointed out, it comes across as a suggestion that someone you're talking about is over 18 but not a "functioning" adult, and it's absolutely no wonder that people read it as a suggestion that homosexuals were deficient in adulthood.
When an entire string of posters all read your remarks in the same way, coming back with "READ THE WORDS" to blame the reader is an absolute cop-out. You are increasing the anger of other Shipmates - certainly my anger at least - through your poor choice of words. Let's face it, some of the ideas just suck anyway, but you're making it worse by your poor choices in expression.
[ 17. August 2015, 23:11: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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David
Complete Bastard
# 3
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Posted
Why wouldn't we cure Gingers if we could?
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... It's useful precisely because everyone agrees that Nazism, paedophilia etc are Bad Things. It's something we can take for granted, and we don't then get sidetracked into questions of whether perhaps Hitler wasn't quite as bad as he's been painted... ...
Well, how about left-handedness? That's innate. Within living memory, lefties were thought to be possessed by the devil and they were forced to use their non-dominant right hand. And guess what: most people now think that's ridiculous. But I guess that analogy won't push the same buttons, will it?
Every time you bring up pedophilia in a discussion about homosexuality, it's not an analogy. It's an insult with a very long history based on a myth - that because homosexuality is a "choice", homosexuals have to "recruit" children. You know this, and you've been asked nicely and not so nicely to stop and you've continued to do it. You are an ignorant, sick, trolling blob of santorum.
Oh, and I'm sure you'll be happy to know that Hitler is on your side in this fight - the pink triangle was invented in the Nazi concentration camps. Just like you, he was also very interested in genetics.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
Why wouldn't we cure Gingers if we could?
The question presumes there's something meaningfully wrong with them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Well, how about left-handedness? That's innate. Within living memory, lefties were thought to be possessed by the devil and they were forced to use their non-dominant right hand.
They were actually considered quite sinister...
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{Gently throws soft pillow at Pigwidgeon.} ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
Why wouldn't we cure Gingers if we could?
The question presumes there's something meaningfully wrong with them.
You say that like they aren't soulless abominations who feed on the sanity of hapless ensouled beings.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
Why wouldn't we cure Gingers if we could?
The question presumes there's something meaningfully wrong with them.
You say that like they aren't soulless abominations who feed on the sanity of hapless ensouled beings.
You're getting confused with Tea Party members.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
They were actually considered quite sinister...
Not hellish but YAY someone like me. I had such a good giggle at this. One of my friends posted 'it's national left handed day' a while back and I made a 'that sounds sinister joke' and NO ONE GOT IT!
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Well, how about left-handedness? That's innate. Within living memory, lefties were thought to be possessed by the devil and they were forced to use their non-dominant right hand. And guess what: most people now think that's ridiculous. But I guess that analogy won't push the same buttons, will it?
Yes, my husband (58) was forced to use his right hand and was whacked on the knuckles any time he tried to swap hands. Has that made him right handed? Of course not! It's made him confused!
He writes (badly) with his right hand. Bowls left handed, bats right handed, uses a snooker cue and scissors left handed.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Assume we are sending a generation ship to an earth-like planet a few light years away.
If the crew is composed on red-haired men and women, then their chance to survive the trip and found an interstellar colony is about the same as for couples randomly chosen from the population. If there is lots of UV light at the destination planet, they might struggle a bit more, if there is a lot less they may do a bit better, but mutations will take care of that in a few generations.
If the crew is composed of all left-handed men and women, then their chance to survive the trip and found an interstellar colony is about the same as for couples randomly chosen from the population. They might be slightly less dexterous at handling some of the tech, but that's then because it was designed for right-handed people. If the population stays majority left-handed, they will convert everything into left-handed tech in a few generations.
If the crew is composed of all men or all women, then their chance to survive the trip and found an interstellar colony is zero.
If the crew is composed of all homosexuals, even in a 50:50 male-female mix, then their chance to survive the trip and found an interstellar colony is zero. Unless, that is, if they act against their sexual orientation and force themselves to have sex with the opposite sex. And this can only lead to a successful interstellar colonisation a few generations down the track under either of two conditions: 1. All children remain homosexual, but fantastic social discipline is executed that will lead to enough heterosexual acts to maintain the population; or 2. some children are heterosexual, and eventually they and their offspring maintain the population.
It is clear from this thought experiment that homosexuality is nothing like being re-haired or left-handed. One can of course add complications to this, but it remains a fundamental biological fact that homosexuality is a dysfunction of the individual, and a dysfunction precisely concerning the one thing that sex and genes are in the end about biologically: entering one's own genetic makeup into the gene pool of the next generation.
Whether such biological considerations should say much or anything at all about our social and political dealings with homosexuality is a completely different question. Whether in the regular setting of this world (with only a fraction of the population being homosexual) other biological consideration grip at the group level is a different question again. It is not my point that the basic considerations above decide everything, even the net effect of homosexuality on the population. Rather, my point is that the comparison of homosexuality to handedness and hair colour is absurd, biologically speaking. Whatever homosexuality truly is, it is decidedly not in the same biological ballpark as these.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
But IngoB, that is of course your underlying assumptions are that settlement of other planets by humans would be a good thing and continuing reproduction of humankind on Earth is wonderful. Anyone would think that overpopulation wasn't a thing.
I guess this comes from Genesis and humankind to rule over all dominions. Lots of science to say that isn't all that great.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If the crew is composed of all homosexuals, even in a 50:50 male-female mix, then their chance to survive the trip and found an interstellar colony is zero.
This is a case unlikely to arise in practice.
Furthermore, it is unclear whether it tells us anything more than the similar case in which the crew are all men. A crew with all women and a large sperm bank would be functional. I don't think that tells us anything much about whether men are dysfunctional.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
But IngoB, that is of course your underlying assumptions are that settlement of other planets by humans would be a good thing and continuing reproduction of humankind on Earth is wonderful. Anyone would think that overpopulation wasn't a thing. I guess this comes from Genesis and humankind to rule over all dominions. Lots of science to say that isn't all that great.
Sorry, but no. Interstellar colonisation was just a device to bring out that homosexuality is not in the same category, biologically speaking, as handedness and hair colour. The social, political, spiritual, economical, environmental, ... evaluation of this difference is a completely different issue. Maybe homosexuality is the bestest thing ever according to your evaluation standards, that would have to be discussed. My point above is however a simple one: equating these at the level of biology is simply wrong. Period. People should stop using this as an argument, because it does not hold any water.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
This is a case unlikely to arise in practice.
As is true for most thought experiments. A thought experiment intentionally heightens and isolates some aspect of reality to allow clear thinking about it, if at the expense of being unlikely, impractical, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Furthermore, it is unclear whether it tells us anything more than the similar case in which the crew are all men. A crew with all women and a large sperm bank would be functional. I don't think that tells us anything much about whether men are dysfunctional.
If the sperm was selected so as to maintain the all female composition of the crew, then the chance to complete the trip and colonisation is again zero. At some point the finite amount of sperm will be exhausted, and then the final generation of women will die out. If the sperm was the usual 50:50, then population would be maintained eventually by virtue of male children being born. This corresponds to case 2 in my description of the "all homosexual" crew. At any rate, we learn from this the obvious, namely that an all female crew is not viable. The "sperm bank" as a kind of virtual but finite male presence, just delays the inevitable. Your comment that this does not teach us anything about men being dysfunctional is correct, but also entirely besides any point made by me.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Assume we are sending a generation ship to an earth-like planet a few light years away.
Well, it's good to know that Roman Catholic priests and bishops won't be permitted on board.
Honestly, Ingo, your propensity to suggest that anyone who doesn't contribute to the propagation is significantly reduced in "biological" value is hilarious, coming as it does with a colossal blind spot. Or are you suggesting that priests shall be released from their vows on this ship, for the sake of humanity?
The idea that any ship sent to outer space would consist of a monoculture, of any kind, is so fantastical as to be useless as a proposition. You are committing a colossal logical fallacy by trying to turn a characteristic of an individual into a characteristic of an entire population, as if one has any implication for the other.
Suppose a society consisted entirely of homosexuals. Suppose a car consisted entirely of wheels. Suppose a computer consisted entirely of input devices. Suppose a body consisted entirely of a liver. Suppose the inside of your head consisted entirely of empty space.
Fine, so I'm not so useful in one particular context. And? I can also provide you with a list of other situations I'm not your best choice in. Heavy manual labour. The visual arts. Situations where time is of the essence.
Would you like me to provide a list of situations where you're not the ideal candidate?
I don't want to live in a world where everyone is like me. (In fact, you don't have to go to outer space to work out it's a problem, just go the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and see if it makes sense to assume that all the men were gay). Half of the point of life is to connect with those who complement your own skills. A basic part of any successful organisation is that it identifies new employees who can provide the skills that existing employees lack.
The idea that a human being who doesn't procreate therefore doesn't contribute as much to humanity, or to your imaginary ship, is a blatant falsehood. Ask the Pope.
Let me finish with a real life example to illustrate just how absurd your reasoning process is:
If you eat nothing but rabbit you will die.
Seriously. Rabbit lacks an essential nutrient, meaning that you cannot survive on rabbit alone.
This is no way means that rabbit is poisonous, or not nutritious.
I doubt that it means that rabbit is somehow "biologically speaking" crucially different to beef or pork or chicken or mutton, although just what the hell that phrase means I'm sure I don't know. All it proves is that you need more than rabbit to make a diet.
All you've proved is that you need more than homosexuals to make a functioning society. Well, duh, who said otherwise?
You really are incredibly stupid.
[ 18. August 2015, 09:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Assume we are sending a generation ship to an earth-like planet a few light years away.
If the crew is entirely composed of Roman Catholics, your ship will arrive at Alpha Centauri full of the tens of thousands of dessicated corpses of good Catholics who never used birth control.
Next pointless analogy, please.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You are committing a colossal logical fallacy by trying to turn a characteristic of an individual into a characteristic of an entire population, as if one has any implication for the other.
I have provided a thought experiment that proves what it set out to prove, in a logically sound manner - namely, that biologically speaking homosexuality is not like handedness or hair colour. The step from the individual to the population is essential, and entirely valid: since the postulated difference is precisely that this step can be made for handedness and hair colour, but cannot be made for homosexuality. Homosexuals can only exist in the long run if there are heterosexuals. Red-haired people can exist in the long run with no other hair colour present. Left-handed people can exit in the long run without any right-handed people present. Homosexuality is hence not a biologically viable characteristic in and by itself, whereas having red hair and being left-handed are.
This is a significant biological difference. As mentioned, what the effects are on the population level is a different issue, as are our evaluations of this difference. But the idea that homosexuality, handedness and hair colour are biologically speaking in the same category of accidental characteristics is plain and simply false.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
At an evolutionary level the whole society has to be considered not individuals, so your logic of extrapolating from the individual falls down. If we purely consider individuals altruism is a sign of failure, but at a societal level it is a successful strategy.
At a societal level a number of evolutionary benefits of homosexuality have been suggested, giving a variety of reasons for the prevalence throughout history and societies. Homosexuality within society is not a negative the way you depict IngoB. Evolutionary influences aren't so black and white as humans procreate and are successful in evolutionary terms versus humans don't procreate and they are not.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Let me finish with a real life example to illustrate just how absurd your reasoning process is: If you eat nothing but rabbit you will die. Seriously. Rabbit lacks an essential nutrient, meaning that you cannot survive on rabbit alone. This is no way means that rabbit is poisonous, or not nutritious. I doubt that it means that rabbit is somehow "biologically speaking" crucially different to beef or pork or chicken or mutton, although just what the hell that phrase means I'm sure I don't know. All it proves is that you need more than rabbit to make a diet. All you've proved is that you need more than homosexuals to make a functioning society.
To briefly use your own analogy to make the same point I've made above:
Assume that there is a food that does provide all necessary nutrients to a person in and by itself. Let's call it manna. Are manna and rabbit equivalent as foods? No, they are not. How so, given that both are nutritious? Well, precisely by the fact that people can only eat manna and survive, but the cannot only eat rabbit. But is it not the case that as part of larger, balanced diet one can survive eating rabbit as well? Yes, that is true, but it does not change that there is a significant nutritional difference between manna and rabbit. Maybe the situation that only one kind of food is available is rare and in that sense "unrealistic". But if we assume that situation as thought experiment, then it is obvious that we would want manna as the only available food, not rabbit - lest we should die. This thought experiment merely brings to the fore that as far as nutrition is concerned, manna and rabbit are different. Of course, this does not end the discussion. Perhaps manna is bland and a balanced diet including rabbit is wonderful. But that's really a different thing to talk about. It does not change that rabbit and manna are not equivalent as foods.
Obviously then, your own analogy also shows that homosexuality ("rabbit") and handedness / hair colour ("manna") are not the same biologically ("nutritionally"). The latter are viable as such, the former is not. Hence they are not equivalent in a biological sense. That does not decide the discussion about homosexuality at all, but it does mean that the claim fails that homosexuality is just like hair colour or handedness biologically.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Next pointless analogy, please.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
To briefly use your own analogy to make the same point I've made above:
<snip>
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
At an evolutionary level the whole society has to be considered not individuals, so your logic of extrapolating from the individual falls down.
I'm not extrapolating at all. I'm setting up extreme but possible compositions of society to demonstrate that there is a biological difference between different traits. This is entirely valid. In fact, it follows that one still has to discuss the effect of homosexuality in a more typical composition of society. Those equating homosexuality with hair colour and handedness attempt to avoid this discussion. Since we basically all agree that red hair and left-handedness should have no significant impact on social arrangements, equating these to homosexuality attempts to shortcut the discussion of what impact homosexuality should have on social arrangements. Pointing out that this shortcut does not work hence simply avoids a premature end of the discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
At a societal level a number of evolutionary benefits of homosexuality have been suggested, giving a variety of reasons for the prevalence throughout history and societies. Homosexuality within society is not a negative the way you depict IngoB.
I know of these suggestions, and in fact I have carefully referenced them above under "group selection". I have said diddley squat about the effect of homosexuality in our societies: I have said not a word whether this is positive, neutral or negative. What I have said is that homosexuality is not like hair colour and handedness, biologically speaking, and I have illustrated that with a thought experiment. Well, two by now.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Since we basically all agree that red hair and left-handedness should have no significant impact on social arrangements, equating these to homosexuality attempts to shortcut the discussion of what impact homosexuality should have on social arrangements.
Does it? Historically, left-handedness did have a significant social and cultural impact; at a not-so-serious level, it's only recently that society, as a whole, has worked out that can openers don't necessarily work for left handed people.
And the abuse and bullying people with red hair have to put up with - which I can only conclude comes from a residual anti-Irish or -Celts in general racism within dominant communities where red hair is not prevalent - means these things, these biological things, have social outworking.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This is a significant biological difference.
No, it isn't, italics notwithstanding. You've identified a biological difference. You've completely failed to demonstrate its significance except for its significance to a specific environment, namely, monocultures on spaceships. This is zero proof of its significance in any other environment.
I could quite happily provide you with a list of hypotheticals where the biological differences between men and women are of fundamental importance, and a list of hypotheticals where it matters not one jot. Do you really think you're being clever here?
Let's take your astounding insights further: left-handedness affects your chances of success in golf and tennis. Red hair does not. Oh my God it's a significant biological difference!. No, you blithering moron, it's a difference whose significance depends on the situation. Like every other non-identical comparison in the entire universe.
For heaven's sake, would you just go and do some reading about sickle cell anemia and malaria and come back when you've got a clue about how the significance of a trait depends on the context in which it occurs?
[ 18. August 2015, 11:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
PS If your ship full of red-heads land on a planet with a high UV index, they will all die when the supply of sunblock runs out.
PPS Your ship full of left-handers will be unable to carry out certain specialised professions and will have more accidents unless everything on the ship was carefully designed for them. They will probably excel at certain kinds of thinking but may have difficulty with other kinds.
larutannu ti eralced lliw uoy dna ylbirret uoy tespu ylbaborp lliw hcihw gnitirw fo mrof tfel-ot-thgir a detpoda evah lliw yeht erehwyna evirra yeht emit eht yb ,oslA
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Because I'm a good Host:
quote:
Also, by the time they arrive anywhere they will have adopted a right-to-left form of writing which will probably upset you terribly and you will declare it unnatural.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'm enjoying this significant difference bit too much.
I can fit an episode of classic Doctor Who in a half hour slot. I can't fit an episode of NuWho in a half hour slot. Oh my God they're significantly different TV shows!
I can speak English. I can't speak Spanish. In some parts of the world this will affect my ability to communicate with people. Oh heavens, they're significantly different languages!
My niece is allergic to eggs. She is not allergic to milk. Oh wow, it's like they're significantly different foods, even though vegetarians don't eat either of them!
Gold is yellow. Silver isn't. My goodness, they're significantly different metals, with different properties and different NAMES and everything!!
I think lilbuddha says some really interesting and thought-provoking things. Poking holes in Ingo's arguments is like shooting fish in a barrel. Oh my God, it's like they are two significantly different people!
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How pathetic can you be, to turn up on a thread and essentially declare "two non-identical things are significantly different from each other" as if you've made some important discovery that's eluded the rest of us? Do you really think that anyone was ever claiming that homosexuality, red hair and left-handedness were identical, in all respects? Do you really think that anyone who thinks that men and women should be treated equally hasn't noticed penises, vaginas or breasts, and would be surprised by them?
Do you really think?
[ 18. August 2015, 11:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can fit an episode of classic Doctor Who in a half hour slot. I can't fit an episode of NuWho in a half hour slot. Oh my God they're significantly different TV shows!
But now there's a nostalgia TV channel in the UK which is bundling entire serials of classic Who into 80 or 120 minute slots. depending on how many episodes they had. This must mean something.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can fit an episode of classic Doctor Who in a half hour slot. I can't fit an episode of NuWho in a half hour slot. Oh my God they're significantly different TV shows!
But now there's a nostalgia TV channel in the UK which is bundling entire serials of classic Who into 80 or 120 minute slots. depending on how many episodes they had. This must mean something.
It's blasphemy previously committed by the American VHS versions, and the end of civilisation as we know it. If Ingo's spaceship takes these versions with them it will fundamentally alter their understanding of space travel and the whole experiment will end in a bloodbath. Only watching discrete episodes can ensure the future of the human race, because there'll be time for fornication in between episodes.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
I think I shall go and get a cup of coffee so that I can splurt it over my keyboard in response to that post, orfeo.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
I think I shall go and get a cup of coffee so that I can splurt it over my keyboard in response to that post, orfeo.
COFFEE IS FOR DRINKING!! TO SPLURT IS TO USE THE COFFEE AGAINST ITS NATURAL FUNCTION!!!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Because of the set up of my desk, I will drink it using my left hand, despite being right handed. How deviant is that?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
This is a case unlikely to arise in practice.
As is true for most thought experiments. A thought experiment intentionally heightens and isolates some aspect of reality to allow clear thinking about it, if at the expense of being unlikely, impractical, etc.
The problem being that in doing so you may abstract away some significant aspect - and the unlikelihood may well be one of those aspects.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Because of the set up of my desk, I will drink it using my left hand, despite being right handed. How deviant is that?
Meh. Don't be such a Pharisee, nitpicking over every detail.
EDIT: Wait! WAIT! Which side of the mug has the picture?!???!!
[ 18. August 2015, 12:22: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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