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Source: (consider it) Thread: I call all homophobes to Hell - especially Russ
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
the traditional view that autism is a disorder that society should seek to cure

What "traditional view"? The "traditional" approaches include locking those with autism away in hospitals, some attempts at blasting their brains with electric shocks or giving them various poisons (also called "medicine") to keep them in easily handled near vegetable states, and most commonly therapies that don't change who they are but equip them to cope with the difficulties of living in complex society.

There is simply no current "cure" for autism, much less one that can have developed as a "traditional view".

Of course, autism does include some similarities to homosexuality. For a start all those methods people have used to "treat" autism have been applied to homosexuals - throwing in confinement in extermination camps for good measure.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Are those who take the traditional view that autism is a disorder that society should seek to cure (in children - of course adults shouldn't be cured against their will) deemed to fear and hate autism ? Derided as "autophobes" ?

Seems to me that this is about pride.

That term isn't used but there is a palpable loathing among autistic folk for organisations like "autism speaks" that are run by non-autistics and focus almost entirely on a supposed "cure", with the subtext that testing so that they can abort likely autistics is a good second place to that. I wasn't diagnosed as autistic as a child (that was much later), but had someone come at me pathologising who I was and promising a "cure" I, putting it politely, would not have dealt with it well. Of course my autism is high functioning, low functioning forms that prevent people caring for themselves are more obviously debilitating. Conditions like my own are the only ones that offer a valid comparison with minority sexualities, in that they both represent difference without disability. To those trying to make out that a "cure" is something desirable, never mind possible, I say: go fuck yourself, and the horse you rode in on.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Originally posted by Russ:

quote:

The tendency to polarise, to see only two possible views of homosexuality - unconditional approval or hatred/fear

Acceptance. How about trying that?

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sado-masochism is a sexual practice. Homosexuality and heterosexuality aren't.

There are sexual acts. There are desires to commit sexual acts. And there are long-term tendencies to desire certain sorts of sexual acts.

We do not choose our desires or our tendencies.

If you think that what you do is any way morally above what sado-masochists do just because gays have become more politically organised, then I disagree.

I suggest that what moral law asks of you regarding your sexual acts is exactly what it demands of sado-masochists (or vanilla heterosexuals, come to that). Something like:

a) concern for the well-being of the other party or parties (which for the avoidance of misunderstanding I fully believe you have - I'm really not accusing you of anything at all in this regard)

b) discretion in not bringing your activities unnecessarily to the attention of those who find them distasteful

c) respect for the innocence of children

I neither fear nor hate you. Contrary to what others may have led you to believe...

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There is simply no current "cure" for autism

That's a fact.

The question is whether it is appropriate to seek one.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Acceptance. How about trying that?

How does that differ from tolerance ? And how does it differ from unconditional approval ?

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Conditions like my own are the only ones that offer a valid comparison with minority sexualities, in that they both represent difference without disability.

Something's lost, but something's gained.

And you know what you've gained from the inside and what you've lost from the outside. While for those who don't share your condition it's vice versa.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Acceptance. How about trying that?

How does that differ from tolerance ?
You don't know the difference?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Are those who take the traditional view that autism is a disorder that society should seek to cure (in children - of course adults shouldn't be cured against their will) deemed to fear and hate autism ? Derided as "autophobes" ?

Seems to me that this is about pride.

Can you stop being offensive for just 5 minutes? If you're not autistic you have no say in whether or not how they feel about people who they feel attacked by is valid. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Shut the fuck up about it. It's neither productive nor kind nor helpful nor wise nor informed. You are speaking in ignorance and insulting people and following up with a "get over it" (implied by saying it's about pride, which implies they have no right to feel that way).

Stop. Just stop. Quit dragging other conditions into the conversation and then dumping on the people who have them. You are being extremely rude and offensive and just downright NASTY. It is unbecoming of a good human being, let alone a person who calls himself a Christian.

[ 23. August 2015, 21:53: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
"Disorder" (like "defect") is an unhelpful word to use, because it could just mean something going wrong in the biological sense, which in itself has no moral significance, but it could also imply moral disapproval.

You get the point. How would you put it ?...
That depends on what your purpose is. If you are making a "natural law" argument, that homosexuality is wrong because disordered, I suggest that you first define the "order" that you believe to be ethically important, and then make clear that you are using "disorder" to mean a deviation from that norm. If you aren't making that argument, then the word is best avoided - because even if you can make a case that homosexuality is a "disorder" from a biological viewpoint, it is simply not a relevant point at all.

What I'd like you to realise is that:

a) your language is insensitive and potentially insulting, whether you mean it to be or not;

b) no one who is arguing with you is saying that "bad" sexualities are wrong because they are "disordered", so the question of explaining why some "disorders" are OK is simply not a problem we have;

c) the onus is on you to explain why consensual and harmless activities are morally wrong, not on us to distinguish them from child abuse. We think it's obvious why they differ from child abuse. If you pretend that this is something that needs to be spelled out, then that makes you look like one of three things: a moral monster, a moral idiot, or a troll.

quote:
The question remains - do you think the consensual disorders (or whatever term you'd prefer) fall short of your ideal of human life, and if so in what way ? Do you hold these up to your children as something they may well choose to do with their lives, part of the diversity of human culture that should to be celebrated ? and if not what moral principle do you invoke for denying these acts the status of your full approval ? Given that they meet the harm test for what should be tolerated...
My "ideal" is virginity before marriage, fidelity after it, and respect, love and kindness always. My children know this, and know why I think what I think. My aim is to encourage them to be kind, loving, and true to their commitments (in all of life, not just in their sexual behaviour), not to feel that there's anything wrong or dirty about sexuality, to have some idea about what is and is not socially acceptable and polite so that they can function in society without embarrassment, and to ensure that they know that I'll love them no matter what. I don't think it's my job to "celebrate" the details of every sex act that they might consider - some things they are just going to have to find out for themselves.

Assuming that they come to accept my values, how does that work out if one or both of them discovers that they are gay? Or that they have some other minority sexual preference? There's no simple answer. Some kinks, while not to my taste, would be entirely compatible with my ideals. Some very normal, socially quite acceptable, behaviours are not. "Disorder" is simply a crap way of analysing the issues and ethics in either case, so I won't be playing that game.

On the gay thing specifically, there's absolutely nothing about being gay that would prevent someone from having exactly the same standard of sexual morality that I do. The only question for me is whether there's an argument from authority against it, which puts an additional burden of self-denial on gay people that just doesn't apply to straights, not whether it's "disordered" in a biological sense. Who cares whether it is or not? Someone born gay has to live exactly the same life and make exactly the same decisions whether the ancestral genes which contribute to his or her orientation were adaptive or deleterious.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Russ
Old salt
# 120

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Mousethief,

Fair enough. If you and others are that upset, we'll end the thread here.

My style of arguing by analogy, similarities and differences, is obviously making no headway. And I'm not getting back the particular sort of reasoned argument that would show me how to put the pieces together in a different way and thus change my mind.

You'll just have to believe me that it's possible for a well-meaning person to come to different conclusions from your own.

I have no wish to insult anybody here, and if that's all that you and others are getting from this then it's better we finish it here.

So long, and thanks for all the brickbats.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Mousethief,

Fair enough. If you and others are that upset, we'll end the thread here.

My style of arguing by analogy, similarities and differences, is obviously making no headway. And I'm not getting back the particular sort of reasoned argument that would show me how to put the pieces together in a different way and thus change my mind.

You'll just have to believe me that it's possible for a well-meaning person to come to different conclusions from your own.

I have no wish to insult anybody here, and if that's all that you and others are getting from this then it's better we finish it here.

So long, and thanks for all the brickbats.

That is some of the most patronising BS I have ever seen here. Which is going some.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Fair enough. If you and others are that upset, we'll end the thread here.

1. It's not about how "upset" I am. That's condescending, patronizing bullshit. It's about how offensive you are.

2. You don't get to say when the thread ends.

quote:
I'm not getting back the particular sort of reasoned argument that would show me how to put the pieces together in a different way and thus change my mind.
No, you're just not recognizing it when it happens. You clearly don't WANT to recognize it when it happens, because you have admitted you've only been skimming the thread. If you actually recognized it, you might have to change your mind about something. It's clear what's most important to you, and it's not logic and well-reasoned arguments. It's holding onto your prejudices and nastiness at all costs.

quote:
You'll just have to believe me that it's possible for a well-meaning person to come to different conclusions from your own.
I have seen no evidence to suggest you are a well-meaning person. None. Thus anything you say about well-meaning people is all third-party hearsay. I'll wait to hear it from them.

quote:
I have no wish to insult anybody here,
THEN WHY DO YOU KEEP DOING IT? Even though you have been told over and over just what it is about what you're doing is insulting. You've been given step-by-step instructions on how to change what you're saying into something that's not insulting, AND YOU REFUSE TO DO IT.

It is simply not possible to believe you don't wish to insult anybody. There is a massive amount of evidence telling the other way. What you do is so much louder than what you say. Because what you say bears no resemblance to reality.

quote:
So long, and thanks for all the brickbats.
No thanks at all for all the slime and aspersions and nastiness you have predicated on everybody who is in any way different from yourself. Rusty farm implements are too good for you.

[ 23. August 2015, 22:53: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sado-masochism is a sexual practice. Homosexuality and heterosexuality aren't.

There are sexual acts. There are desires to commit sexual acts. And there are long-term tendencies to desire certain sorts of sexual acts.

We do not choose our desires or our tendencies.

If you think that what you do is any way morally above what sado-masochists do just because gays have become more politically organised, then I disagree.

I suggest that what moral law asks of you regarding your sexual acts is exactly what it demands of sado-masochists (or vanilla heterosexuals, come to that). Something like:

a) concern for the well-being of the other party or parties (which for the avoidance of misunderstanding I fully believe you have - I'm really not accusing you of anything at all in this regard)

b) discretion in not bringing your activities unnecessarily to the attention of those who find them distasteful

c) respect for the innocence of children

I neither fear nor hate you. Contrary to what others may have led you to believe...

First, you're presuming that being homosexual means I "do" anything at all.

Second, you're presuming, again, that sado-masochists is some sort of separate category of the same kind. It's not. There are heterosexual sado-masochists, and homosexual sado-masochists. I don't know where the hell you got the idea that I thought I was "morally above" consenting adults.

Third, and most importantly, your list of principles has suddenly lost the bit where you suggest that what I "do" is wrong simply for involving two men rather than a man and a woman. Well done, Russ. That was the entire point of this discussion. You have finally shown signs you can stop being a homophobe.

What a pity it was right at the same time as you managed to display another example of how rude you can be to people who don't match you in some other way.

[ 23. August 2015, 23:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

I suggest that what moral law asks of you regarding your sexual acts is exactly what it demands of sado-masochists (or vanilla heterosexuals, come to that). Something like:

First, as has been explained time and again, S&M is not in the same category as sexuality. It just isn't.
Second, yes, hetero and homo sexuality should be viewed with the same moral code.* i.e. What you object to/accept in one, you should object to/accept in the other.

*Code, not laws. And, view, not demand.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There is simply no current "cure" for autism

That's a fact.

The question is whether it is appropriate to seek one.

Russ, you seem not to realise how many of the people posting on the Ship are on the autistic spectrum. The Ship and online communities are places where people with higher functioning ASC can function as easily as neurotypical people, because we all stand and fall by the words we type, not by reading body language and tone of voice.

Can you understand how offensive it is to sit there postulating a cure for ASC when there are so many brilliant minds who are doing incredible things, but struggle with certain functions in human life. I do realise that ASC is a broad spectrum and that some people (adults and children) with autism are severely disabled, but not all are. Are we going to abort all foetuses with autism, not knowing the extent to which they are affected? We would lose people like Daryl Hannah, Tim Burton, Courtney Love, Temple Grandin, Dan Ackroyd, Satoshi Tajiri (the inventor of Pokemon), Susan Boyle and all those people diagnosed in retrospect: Mozart, Einstein and Lewis Carroll.

People with ASC see things differently. If we went with your "disorder" that needs "curing" for anything that is not "the norm" we would lose that way of seeing things and that broadening of human experience.

The incidence of ASC on the Ship makes this train of thought particularly offensive.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
There are sexual acts. There are desires to commit sexual acts. And there are long-term tendencies to desire certain sorts of sexual acts.

We do not choose our desires or our tendencies.

If you think that what you do is any way morally above what sado-masochists do just because gays have become more politically organised, then I disagree.

I think that morally we should be neutral about our children's sexuality as the suicide rate among homosexual young people is four times higher than among straight young people. Suicide is the second highest cause of death for young people between 10 and 24. Trying to change our children puts them at higher risk of suicide.

And that goes with the moral principle I cited above of not doing harm to others.

BDSM is hugely misunderstood and misrepresented in the press, so having parallels with homosexuality. But making it into something that we can be judgemental about and label as a disorder or deviant behaviour, we do a major disservice to those with those kinks. We don't give them the information or places to learn how to do this safely. We lay them open to blackmail and salacious press stories.

There is a character in one of the earlier Dick Francis books who is being blackmailed for his taste in S&M. That character's despair is so sympathetically drawn that it made me realise quite how difficult life can be if you're the round peg not fitting the nice square hole structured by society.
quote:
I suggest that what moral law asks of you regarding your sexual acts is exactly what it demands of sado-masochists (or vanilla heterosexuals, come to that). Something like:

a) concern for the well-being of the other party or parties (which for the avoidance of misunderstanding I fully believe you have - I'm really not accusing you of anything at all in this regard)

Yes, this is pretty much baseline and full consent is definitely a necessary. Full consent means that the person consenting has full understanding of what they are consenting to.
quote:
b) discretion in not bringing your activities unnecessarily to the attention of those who find them distasteful
There's a problem with this suggestion. That's very much saying anyone can object to various activities and insist they happen in private. And that has been known to add to the isolation and despair of those whose activities are found distasteful. You are basically saying that anyone who doesn't fit your moral code needs to keep any activities firmly in the closet. So a gay couple walking down the street hand in hand would probably count as distasteful? Or kissing in public?
quote:
c) respect for the innocence of children.
But children know when they are very young that they are gay. Are they to be left feeling isolated and frightened because everything around them tells them they are unnatural? Or can films and books aimed at children have homosexual characters? Is that against your moral law? What about the children being brought up by gay parents? I can think of quite a few, not in the public eye. I gave Eutychus pause for thought a few years back citing a lesbian couple I know with their own children. Can these children have no other role models because homosexual couples cannot appear in children's books?

This is not suggesting children should see explicitly sexual imagery - that's child abuse in England - but that same sex couples shouldn't be taboo in children's books.

I'm not including BDSM in this category as that is something discovered later, when people become sexually active and would be sexually explicit material.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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Hmm. As far as I know, I am not on the autistic spectrum (though there are a few faint indicators that might imply some facets of it in the family). As a teacher, I studied identifying factors - had to fill out a form once for one of the pupils - and had children who had been diagnosed as being on the spectrum over a number of years. (It was very difficult, as my teaching style was exactly the sort which would be ruled out by following the suggestions for making it easy for autistic children to follow, and which I had grown to use to enthuse the others.) Somewhere on my computer system there is probably a list of characteristics which I copied from the school server, where someone had untidily filed it.
I did develop a strong dislike for the term ASD, because in most of the cases, disorder did not apply.

This is building up to my making a careful suggestion that a few things on that list have brought themselves to my attention while reading this thread this morning.

The theory of mind - understanding that other people have minds which are separate from the observers, and may hold different beliefs and understanding.
Believing that other people know everything that the observer knows, even if there is no way that they could have that knowledge, with the corollary that if they claim to know something the observer does not know, they are wrong.
A need for the world around the observer to be predictable and to follow order and rules, creating difficulties when the expected pattern is breached.

It's not really easy to tell who here knows that they have features of autism, unless they state it somewhere. It must be very tricky for people who don't know that they have, when they can't read others successfully, even when things are spelled out for them.

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Are those who take the traditional view that autism is a disorder that society should seek to cure (in children - of course adults shouldn't be cured against their will) deemed to fear and hate autism ? Derided as "autophobes" ?

Seems to me that this is about pride.

You're damn right this is about pride. And you've got no right to tell aspies like me that we've got less right to be proud than other people.

But then the "traditional view" of anything is usually the one in which straight, white, neurotypical, cisgender men get to be admired and accepted, and allowed to have pride in themselves, while everyone else gets thrown under the bus. Don't expect the ones under the bus to be as enamoured of the traditional view.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Or, to the back of the bus.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

You'll just have to believe me that it's possible for a well-meaning person to come to different conclusions from your own.

If you were well meaning I would not have called you to hell.

I called you precisely because you have showed yourself to be the polar opposite of well meaning.

Saying 'best wishes' and 'I mean well'
DO NOT make it so.

How to mean well -

1. Listen to people.
2. Consider what they say.
3. Don't presume to know what their life is like.
4. Ask questions.
5. Listen to and consider their answers without pre-judging.
6. Don't compare people to the worst examples in society that you can think of and expect them to believe you are well meaning or wish them well.
7. Care about people, not labels.
8. Think about how you come across to others, not just those who agree with you.


And many more.

[ 24. August 2015, 13:11: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Can you understand how offensive it is to sit there postulating a cure for ASC when there are so many brilliant minds who are doing incredible things, but struggle with certain functions in human life. I do realise that ASC is a broad spectrum and that some people (adults and children) with autism are severely disabled, but not all are. Are we going to abort all foetuses with autism, not knowing the extent to which they are affected? We would lose people like Daryl Hannah, Tim Burton, Courtney Love, Temple Grandin, Dan Ackroyd, Satoshi Tajiri (the inventor of Pokemon), Susan Boyle and all those people diagnosed in retrospect: Mozart, Einstein and Lewis Carroll

How do you get from a cure, which would ameliorate or heal ill effects of ASC, to aborting foetuses that are predicted to have ASC? That's like saying that there's a cure of the common cold, which consists in shooting people dead who show first symptoms. The "traditional" Christian view can be accused of many things, but hardly of favouring abortion at the drop of a hat.

If a purported cure of ASC does nothing but improve the social capabilities of the individual, then just what exactly would be wrong with applying it? There's plenty of suffering left in the world, we really do not need to ring-fence any of it just to maintain a "broad perspective".

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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From Russ's post here

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Russ has talked about a "traditional view" of ASC, but no mention of "Christian" in there. Certainly with other conditions labeled as a "disorder" there have been moves towards pre-natal testing and abortion as a solution. I know of one couple with a Downs child who withdrew support from a charity for Downs when they started supporting the development of improved tests so that more Downs children would be aborted rather than born.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Mousethief,

Fair enough. If you and others are that upset, we'll end the thread here.

Dear Russ,

Thank you so very much for offering to end this thread. It warms my heart to see others stepping up to the pitch without prompting and taking up the job of hosting. However, if I may offer you a small piece of advice before you continue in your newly assumed volunteer position, you might want to make sure your posts are to the right thread.

Just sayin'.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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There are actual organisations funding research into foetal testing so that abortion will be an option, and they are pushing this as a kind of cure. It's not a cure for autism, of course, but it is a cure for parents having to deal with autistic kids.

This is not paranoia. This is actually happening, and is probably as close to a cure as will happen. Therapies/equipment etc that help with the difficulties that come with ASC are also being developed, and these are for the most part not controversial. The things that are controversial are the aforementioned attempts to wipe out autism before birth, and the pseudo-scientific "cures" that are often abusive and always useless.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
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IngoB

What do you think a cure would look like? And how much would it affect other aspects of the ASC person's character. Because I know what supporting ASC students to cope looks like.

I have worked with students on the ASC spectrum over a number of years, trying to support them to cope in a world they find confusing, both achieving academically as far as they are able and also explicitly teaching social skills. Trying to help them to a career where they can achieve and cope independently. This is both in mainstream and special schools.

I also have a neighbour who is on the spectrum who is struggling to cope independently and have had to work quite hard to persuade other neighbours to tolerate his quirks. Which would be a whole lot easier if he stopped self-medicating with alcohol.

None of these would necessarily welcome a cure. Temple Grandin says that living longer is a cure as she learns how to cope better.

But I have also met far more severely affected children when working in primary schools. Children who cannot communicate and sit and rock moaning when distressed, which is much of the time. Those are the children and people where a cure is suggested.

There's also another little quirk: diagnosis of ASC conditions is not necessarily possible until the child is 18 months to 2 years old. Which made the false link with the MMR vaccination so believable. The diagnosis coincided with the vaccination date.

So with that information, what would a cure look like?

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
However, on a point of order, what you wrote was this:
quote:
Men think they want to see women 'at it' because patriarchy is at work. Women don't seem to be much bothered about seeing two men 'at it' presumably for the same reason.
The 'presumably' here refers to the reasons why women 'don't seem to be much bothered' - according to you, they are not much interested in man-on-man action because patriarchy. My objection is to your initial assumption that they are not much interested. So you did claim special knowledge of women's desires when you assumed this, qualifying it only slightly by the word 'seem'.

But it's okay: you are trying, so I forgive you.

A fair cop....nice to see forgiveness on offer in Hell. Probably would have had more of a roasting in Purg for that slip. <Sorry late in returning>.

Coming back to this whole debate it's interesting to see it all come to hinge on the point of homosexuality being a 'disorder'. That surely has to be a moot point when looking at the universal disorder of the whole human condition since the dawn of humanity itself.
Motes, beams and eyes come to mind.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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I've just had the wicked thought that for a large part of human history, and currently in some parts of the world, there is a condition which could be called female disorder, and for which abortion and infanticide are still being applied as solutions.
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Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

4. Ask questions.

I do have a question, actually.

Do you think that the view that you have been putting forward is true ?

I know, bad form to say goodbye and then come back. But not very polite either to leave and not come back when other people are still talking to me. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. (What else would be the case in hell?)

On reflection, best compromise seemed to be to come back to engage with the points of style and process that your most recent post makes, while avoiding making any comment at all on the substantive issue on which we disagree. I'm suggesting we continue on that basis, if that is agreeable to yourself and to those who share your views.

If you catch me slipping into a comment that amounts to reneging on that, do please pull me up on it.

No way is there time to give an adequate reply to everyone who's contributed to this thread. In selecting the points to reply to, so far I've tried to focus on the substance - on what's true and obviously not true about the main issue. Maybe that was a mistake.

Now I will offend people's sensibilities no longer on that topic. And focus on your points, your thinking in calling me here.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

4. Ask questions.

I do have a question, actually.

Do you think that the view that you have been putting forward is true ?

I know, bad form to say goodbye and then come back. But not very polite either to leave and not come back when other people are still talking to me. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. (What else would be the case in hell?)

On reflection, best compromise seemed to be to come back to engage with the points of style and process that your most recent post makes, while avoiding making any comment at all on the substantive issue on which we disagree. I'm suggesting we continue on that basis, if that is agreeable to yourself and to those who share your views.

If you catch me slipping into a comment that amounts to reneging on that, do please pull me up on it.


You're not reneging for one moment, but you are waffling. YMMV but I'm sure that accounts for some of the problems on this and other threads.

I do wish people would write simply and clearly, instead of getting tied up in subordinate clauses such that I lose track of the subject and whether one is pro- or con-. More Hemingway, less Lyly please.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
There are actual organisations funding research into foetal testing so that abortion will be an option, and they are pushing this as a kind of cure. It's not a cure for autism, of course, but it is a cure for parents having to deal with autistic kids. This is not paranoia. This is actually happening, and is probably as close to a cure as will happen.

It is entirely possible that foetuses with detected "likelihood of future ASC" will be aborted systematically in the future. But whatever one might wish to call that, it cannot be called a proper cure.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
What do you think a cure would look like? And how much would it affect other aspects of the ASC person's character.

I do not know. One would expect though that quite apart from any direct physiological effects of the treatment, its actual success, the sudden achievement of social "normality", would have a profound impact on the character of a person.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
None of these would necessarily welcome a cure.

Generally speaking, if one suffers enough, then one wants a cure. I doubt many sufferers of severe depression would hesitate taking a drug that will cure them of depression once and for all by adjusting their brain chemistry. It is only when the suffering from the diseases is mild as compared to feared effects of the cure (effects like changing one's established life patterns, which has significant psychological costs) that a cure will be rejected. I'm not sure that there are simple answers for that situation, much depends on the individual and their circumstances, as well as the available resources in the community. However, also generally speaking these problems are much reduced or simply absent when the cure is applied during childhood, when the person is still changing strongly anyway.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
So with that information, what would a cure look like?

I do not know. The information you have provided is of no great help there.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Generally speaking, if one suffers enough, then one wants a cure.

Sometimes the "cure" is changing the world so that it no longer causes you to suffer.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Carex
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# 9643

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sado-masochism is a sexual practice. Homosexuality and heterosexuality aren't.

There are sexual acts. There are desires to commit sexual acts. And there are long-term tendencies to desire certain sorts of sexual acts.

Which is a nice broad statement, but doesn't seem to add anything to the current discussion.

While it is true that "there are sexual acts", there are NO uniquely homosexual sexual acts. Any sexual act that can occur in a same-sex couple also can (and does) happen in mixed-sex couples.

And, has has been pointed out already, many homosexuals do not engage in any sexual activity. Just like many heterosexuals.

Homosexuality is NOT defined by the participation (or not) in any specific sexual acts. Trying to equate it with other sexual activities is a category error.

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St Deird
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# 7631

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

4. Ask questions.

I do have a question, actually.

Do you think that the view that you have been putting forward is true ?

No. We're all pretending to disagree with you, just for kicks.
[Roll Eyes]

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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I do have a question, actually.

Do you think that the view that you have been putting forward is true ?

Yes, absolutely true. Homosexual people should not be treated differently from heterosexual people in any way whatsoever.

quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

On reflection, best compromise seemed to be to come back to engage with the points of style and process that your most recent post makes, while avoiding making any comment at all on the substantive issue on which we disagree.

Your style, it seems to me, is mainly passive aggressive. You say you are well meaning and you come over as friendly whilst saying the most appalling, de-humanising things with 'best wishes'.

Just like quite a lot of the Church does [Frown] [Tear]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Gee D
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# 13815

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When Madame and I are down the coast in summer, we like walking along the beach in the evening, sometimes chatting, sometimes just being together. In our mid-winter break a few weeks ago, we drove through the Central West of the state, again sometimes chatting, and at others just being together. No genital activity, but certainly times of deep sexual attraction to each other.

Russ, Kaplan Corday, Ingo B and all the others limit sexual activity to the genital. The genital is only part of the whole. What Orfeo asks is that we realise that in similar circumstances, his partner will be male, not female. His sexual attraction to men is not simply preferring to go to bed with them, it's in all activities. What on earth is wrong with that? I can't understand it any more than I can understand why I'm attracted to women; what matters is that he is as he is, and I am as I am.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Do you think that the view that you have been putting forward is true ?

If we weren't already in Hell this sentence would be worth a Hell call in its own right.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Russ, Kaplan Corday, Ingo B and all the others limit sexual activity to the genital.

Not at all. Homosexuality fails to realise the natural / God given complementarity of the sexes, and their unity in intimacy into a greater whole that transcends their sex. Homosexuality seeks union with another that is not complementary, but similar, and hence is deficient by not extending the person beyond their own sex. This understanding of a fundamental complementarity of male and female is Christian, but extends far beyond it. We find the idea in Plato as much as among the Daoists. Homosexuality, however, requires no encounter with and no accommodation of the "mysteriously other", there is no fundamental gap to be closed there by intimacy.

I think these statements are both true and at least as important as the modes of genital engagement. Unfortunately, these are also subtle concepts, almost poetic ones. The steamroller of "sexual equality" agitprop will of course make short work of them. Not everybody can see that yin-yin and yang-yang fail to harmonise with the structure of mankind and even the universe in the way yin-yang does. So instead we are reduced to discussing the design of penises and vaginas... That's OK though, the greater design of the universe can also be found there.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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There are some conditions which are unremittingly bad and cause suffering with no upside. Depression is one such condition. Arthritis, motor neuron disease, and diabetes are others (if anyone wants to present an upside to these go ahead. It's just about possible there is one that I've not thought of). I suffer from depression and anxiety, or rather I did up until I found the right combination of medication. You could call me a "sufferer of depression".

I don't suffer from Asperger's, which is why I and others bristle when the term "sufferers" is used in relation to ASC. My aspie brain sometimes causes suffering when I'm in an environment which is not aspie-friendly. It causes joy and delight in other situations. When it's difficult, it's difficult because the world is not set up for people like me. I'm fortunate, however, that my own life is, and I have the confidence these days to live a life that is compatible with the brain I have. I'm also lucky enough to live in an age where technology allows me to play to my strengths. I can have a conversation with a large group of people online, but I find that completely impossible in person because my hearing doesn't process group conversations at all well. You won't see me at a shipmeet, or if you do I'll most likely be in a corner looking bewildered, wearing a pair of industrial ear defenders and not saying anything.

The trouble with seeing the answer to CK's question as "I guess you aspies will all become much better at socialising!" is that it reduces a very complicated set of traits into just one thing that is the most noticeable thing for people who are not on the spectrum. Are poor social skills a part of ASC? Yes. Well, I'd say it's more of a lack of talent in that area - you can learn. But were you to take away by ASC, what else would go? My very musical brain and perfect pitch? Probably. My brain is overly wired for both hearing and patterns, which has made me good at music. My personality? It'd change dramatically. My enthusiasm for my aspie interests and obsessions? I don't talk about my obsession on SoF because it makes me a bit too vulnerable but I have heard it said "I wish I got as much joy from anything as Liopleurodon gets from [obsession]."

So here's the crux of the matter. When you cure someone's depression, they move more into the fullness of who they are. Depression, pain, exhaustion - these symptoms of illness can cause a person to fade away like a wilting flower. They shrink away from themselves. Cure them and they spring back into themselves again. The fullness of who I am is very much tied to being mildly autistic. Take that element away and you'll be left with someone who isn't me. Therefore when someone says they want to cure all autism, I'm left with the impression that what they want is to remove me and replace me with someone else who looks like me but is more convenient to be around because she doesn't panic at the sound of a police siren.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Well said Liopleurodon. I feel very much the same about my ADHD. It is so much a part of who I am, you couldn't take it away and be left with me.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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The problem with Liopleurodon's statement is that it is making exactly the kind of assumptions I refused to make about a potential "cure", just in the negative. But since we know little about the mechanisms behind ASC, ADHD, etc. and even less about ways of "curing" them, this is simply not warranted.

We do not know, for example, that a "cure" of ASC, which would improve sociability, as a side effect would degrade above average ability. This is "Rain Man" thinking, pretending that there is somehow a finite amount of brain power and that if one wants to ramp up one bit of brain activity above normal, one has to reduce another below normal. But this is certainly not a general rule shown by science, indeed it's highly questionable and full of potential developmental confounds (if you are "special", you get "special" treatment by others, likely pushing you into further difference).

There are people with great musical talent who do not have ASC. And while I assume that anybody who is very musical would dislike the sound of a siren, not all of such people would be driven into a panic by the sound. For all we know, a "cure" of ASC might leave musical talent entirely untouched, indeed, improve it by tolerance of (rather than inability to hear) dissonance. As for obsessions, they can be unhealthy or powerful motivators, a distinction that is difficult to make and probably not one based on brain function alone. Here be Psychology. At any rate, many non-ASC sufferers do have obsessions, and again we have no idea what impact an ASC "cure" would have on them.

In short, speculations about potential "personality wrecking" side effects of a "cure" of ASC and like disease are not warranted. Not because such side effects could not be imagined, but because we simply have no idea whether they might occur. Of course, we also do not know that they won't. But one cannot reject researching a "cure" just on the basis that they might occur. That's irrational. And even if there were such side effects, I would prefer having the "cure" available in order to provide choice to the individual.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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But all you've done here is redefine ASC to include only the negative aspects of it. I don't think that we can do that. Do other people have musical brains? Yes. But my brain is massively overwired for sound, and it tends to overpower my other senses to the extent that I struggle to see or smell things in a noisy environment. That's as a direct result of my ASC. In all likelihood I've picked up as much music brain stuff as I have because my brain focuses so much on sound. So yes, other people have musical brains, and obsessions, and so on. But there is a pattern of occurence which is related to ASC, and I just don't think you can lose the ASC and keep the good stuff. There's circular reasoning here: "my view sees ASC as bad. Anything good about it is not due to the ASC. Therefore if you cure the ASC the good stuff will remain. Therefore the ASC was all bad."

It all ties in with privilege and the notion of the "default" human being a white, able bodied, neurotypical cis/het man. Differ from that and there's a cultural bias towards seeing that difference as inherently disordered. A woman is not a defective man. A black person is not a defective white person. "Yes, we know!" I hear everyone cry. "Nobody thinks that!" People might not think that now, or might not admit that they still think that way. It's not far in our past though. Step back 150 years and look at the extent to which femaleness or blackness was seen as intrinsically defective and flawed. This is every bit as "traditional" as considering homosexuality as a defect.

A gay person is not a defective straight person and I am sure as hell not a defective neurotypical. There are an awful lot of different ways to be human.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I think some people do benefit from depression, and I know this is not true of everyone.

I mean people for whom it is a warning signal, that something needs correction.

An example, suitably disguised. A woman came to see me, in the throes of deep depression, on medication, also feeling guilty and ashamed, with thoughts of suicide.

She'd trained as a barrister, partly because her family thought this was prestigious. However, as we delved more into what she wanted to be/do, it was clear that she had artistic talent, and had suppressed it.

To cut a long story short, she gave up law, became a digital artist, and flourished.

But it was the depression which gave the clues and keys to her flourishing. It was the suppression which led to the depression (sorry about the cliche).

And to repeat, I am not saying this is true of everyone.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Good points about women and black people from Liopleurodon. It's interesting that this rhetoric of defect and deficiency was applied to so many different groups of people - women were defective men, and so on.

I suppose gays are a remnant of this kind of thinking, since few people today would consider women to be property, or black people to be sub-human, but it's still OK to say that gays are defective or whatever.

This approach has had an interesting trajectory in different disciplines, I mean, the pathologizing of gay sex was found in law, medicine, psychiatry, and theology. Generally, it has been over-turned, except (apparently) in parts of theology!

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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JonahMan
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# 12126

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There have been times when I've thought (never said!) that I wished my Aspie son had never been born. Bringing him up has undoubtedly been hard work, much harder than my other two, and it still is.

Nevertheless, Asperger's is part of who he is, it doesn't define his personality but it does shape it. If you could suddenly cure the Asperger's he wouldn't be him any more. And, in spite of my occasional bitter thoughts, this wouldn't be a price worth paying.

He has learned to overcome the problems his Asperger's brings; and those he interacts with - home, school, friends etc - have learned to act so as not to disadvantage him. In many respects, this has improved me as a person (an easy thing to do, given the low starting point, but nonetheless) as it's made me better at communicating with people more generally.

Also, Autism is a spectrum, not an all or nothing affair. On a scale of 1 to 20, I'm probably on about 12 myself. Let's say you get an official diagnosis if you hit 15. But next year the diagnosis might be given when the target is 14, or 16. How would you decide who to cure, even if you could? You might equally decide that being a dwarf is a disability to be cured; where do you draw the line to what is normal? 3 feet, 4 feet, 5 feet, 5 foot 6 inches?

Attempting to decide what is 'normal' and 'cure' people who don't meet the criteria strikes me as being not only highly immoral but also highly dangerous. Whether this is autism, height or sexual orientation makes no odds.

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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

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Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
How to mean well -

1. Listen to people.

You're quite right that I have not paid attention to your main point - neither agreeing, disputing, nor modifying my approach. Not unreasonable for you to conclude that I wasn't listening to you.

I'm sorry that this has upset you. Being discourteous to you was not my intention.

You won't be surprised to hear that I have a low opinion of the argument you appeared to be making, despite my respect for you personally.

Seems to me that being argued out of a previously-held viewpoint is an honourable position to be in. It shows that one values truth over the satisfaction of being right.

Conversely, being peer-pressured out of a point of view is dishonourable. It's a betrayal of the value of truth for the sake of a quiet life from one's neighbours.

That's what you seemed to me to be doing. I read your cries of "offensive" as an attempt at substituting social pressure for reasoned argument, an attempt to censor a point of view that is contrary to your prejudices (which is to say the things that you feel to be truebutcannot easily argue for in words).

Analogies are the way I tend to argue, so just imagine this scenario. You're over on another thread about the role of government, and start to express your view that flattening the income distribution is part of that role. Someone says to you, "shut up,Boogie, it's vulgar to talk about how much or how little wealth people have". That may be entirely true of the social circle in which that person moves. Should their idea of manners be allowed to dictate which views are admissible to the debate ? Are you happy to go along with that ? Wouldn't you rather ignore that person and engage with the people who are actually listening to what you're saying rather than dismissing you out of hand because they've they don't want to hear anything about distribution of wealth ?

Just an analogy...

Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
We do not know, for example, that a "cure" of ASC, which would improve sociability, as a side effect would degrade above average ability. This is "Rain Man" thinking, pretending that there is somehow a finite amount of brain power and that if one wants to ramp up one bit of brain activity above normal, one has to reduce another below normal. But this is certainly not a general rule shown by science, indeed it's highly questionable and full of potential developmental confounds (if you are "special", you get "special" treatment by others, likely pushing you into further difference).

No, it's genetic thinking. We see behavior traits or physical characteristics that go together far far far more often than randomness would suggest, and we start to think they are genetically linked. Not sure why this concept is difficult.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Just an analogy...

Income distribution is not an integral part of who your hypothetical economist considers themself to be (or else they are a very weird person indeed). Nor in this example has the person's support for this particular kind of income distribution been compared to buggering children.

"You want to talk about something vulgar" and "your innate sexual identity is on a par with raping children" aren't analogous in the least.

Not all arguing by analogy is created equal. You could pick your analogies more carefully. You don't seem inclined to. No matter how many times you are told your analogies are offensive, you keep coming up with new, ever-more-offensive analogies.

Small wonder people don't think you mean well.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
... Not everybody can see that yin-yin and yang-yang fail to harmonise with the structure of mankind and even the universe in the way yin-yang does. So instead we are reduced to discussing the design of penises and vaginas... That's OK though, the greater design of the universe can also be found there.

That's just too fucking silly for words. It's magical thinking, it's Alistair Crowley's "As above, so below". It's adding indigo to the rainbow so the colours match up with the known planets. It's trying to stuff all the wonders of the universe into one of two boxes, innies and outies. Let me guess, you think stars are yang and planets are yin, and that's why they come in sets, right? But how come one star can have more than one planet? Whoa, Nellie, that's not complementarity, that's polygamy.

The universe is not composed of penetrators and penetratees, although, obviously, not all phallo-phascinated penetrators can see that. Quarks complement each other quite nicely, but they are not male or female, they come in several flavours, and they form a variety of particles by joining up in groups of THREE. There's also tetraquarks and pentaquarks. Why not build a Procrustean bed for human relations based on particle physics instead?

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged



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