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Source: (consider it) Thread: Bibliophile evil little worm
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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I don't care about your stupid little arguments. I guess it can be fun in a sickly kind of way, winding up left-wing people by not listening to anything they say and pretending that they are all defenders of the evil things Stalin and Mao did.

You can go a long way like this, and feel very smug about it. I've seen it many times before. It is a thing that a certain type of guys do, safely behind their computers, because they have low self-esteem. I guess doing this makes their tiny pricks grow slightly bigger, I don't even want to know.

You know what? You can go on doing that. By all means, I don't care. I mostly find it boring because I've seen it a thousand times on the internet; there's nothing new about it. But if it gives you that warm feeling down there, don't let me be the one to take that away from you.

But what you don't get to do is to use the suffering of millions of people for your smug little argument. You said twice that what apartheid-era South Africa did in Angola was a good thing.

I live in Mozambique for part of my life, and I visit Angola often. I have many conversations with people who were at both sides of these wars. If you just hear their stories about the suffering that South Africa has caused in these countries, it is beyond imagination.

It maintained unspeakably cruel civil wars. South African backed groups took children, mutilated and then killed their parents in front of their eyes, filled them with drugs, induced them with 'magical' rituals that involved cutting off body parts of other people, and set them off to kill others, provoking retaliations and so the things went on.

Were these wars against communism? Most people didn't even know what they were fighting for. Both sides did terrible things, but these civil wars should never have taken place. They were instigated and maintained by the apartheid government, mostly just because it suited them to sow instability in the countries surrounding them after their white governments were overthrown.

Have you ever been in these countries? Do you speak Portuguese? Do you have a fucking clue what you're talking about?

I often speak with people from both sides. The suffering was unimaginable, and the scars are a long way from having healed yet. Families still mourn their lost members. They still meet their murderers every day on the streets, and have to find a way of living with that. The development of these countries has been set back for many years. Old grudges still dominate politics.

I don't care about your stupid little argument. There will always be stupid little people making stupid little arguments. But this isn't about Mandela, or about the Cubans. What you are doing is to piss on the graves on these people, and is an immense disrespect for the people who live there and who still suffer from this. People whom I know personally, some of them very well.

Don't you dare call what South Africa did in these countries a good thing, you evil piece of slime. Take it back. Apologise.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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There is an existing Bibliophile thread in Hell here.

That one is simply called 'Bibliophile', and I like your title better. So I'm going to lock the old thread and keep this one going.

DT
HH


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Forward the New Republic

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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(Apologies to the Hell Hosts for starting a new thread. I knew that there was a thread against him already in existence, but I felt that my anger warranted a new one. Thank you for closing the other one and maintaining this one, it feels like the best solution.)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Bibliophile
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# 18418

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I will repeat here the answer I gave on the other thread

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No, you don't get to play games like this. South Africa maintained a terrible civil war for no cause at all, just the same stupid "communism is evil and everything is valid against it" that you are spouting here.

If you want to make your stupid little arguments here, I don't care about that. But now you are using the suffering of millions of people just to be smug about it. You said that what South Africa did in Angola was a good thing. Take it back.

It was the Marxists who were maintaining a terrible civil war in Angola. Millions of people suffered. The foreign leader who bears the greatest degree of responsibility for their suffering was Fidel Castro.
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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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Yes I get it:

The Portuguese and the South Africans were good, whatever they did, because they were not communists.

The Cubans were bad whatever they did, because they were communists, because of what they might do.

Even if this twisted version of yours is right (which it isn't, because you don't understand a fuck of what happened there), that doesn't make what South Africa did good.

Even if Cubans are eeeeeeevil communists who were responsible for everything (which is just your stupid little argument and doesn't do justice to what happened there), that doesn't make what South Africa did right.

What South Africa did was wrong. Admit it. And apologise for saying it was right.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I will repeat here the answer I gave on the other thread

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No, you don't get to play games like this. South Africa maintained a terrible civil war for no cause at all, just the same stupid "communism is evil and everything is valid against it" that you are spouting here.

If you want to make your stupid little arguments here, I don't care about that. But now you are using the suffering of millions of people just to be smug about it. You said that what South Africa did in Angola was a good thing. Take it back.

It was the Marxists who were maintaining a terrible civil war in Angola. Millions of people suffered. The foreign leader who bears the greatest degree of responsibility for their suffering was Fidel Castro.
I wish I could be bothered to work out who was allied to whom through the complex and long running wars of independence in South-West Africa and Angola, but they ran from about 1960 to about 2005, there were at least six separate major groups in varying alliances and a few of them changed from being backed by the Soviet Bloc to being supplied and aided by the United States and South Africa.

It's a whole lot more complex than saying "The Marxists were to blame". Most of the time others carried the can too.

[ 20. August 2015, 23:20: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Well, in an effort to remedy my ignorance of the conflict, I had a quick read of the Wiki article on the subject.

If it's anywhere near the truth then, SA had its fingerprints all over the conflict, starting way back in 1966, when SWAPO started its independence struggle in Namibia.

Last time I looked, the SA government at that time weren't Marxists. So I'm guessing, like oh so many things you say, you're wrong.

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Forward the New Republic

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Bibliophile
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# 18418

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Yes I get it:

The Portuguese and the South Africans were good, whatever they did, because they were not communists.

The Cubans were bad whatever they did, because they were communists, because of what they might do.

Even if this twisted version of yours is right (which it isn't, because you don't understand a fuck of what happened there), that doesn't make what South Africa did good.

Even if Cubans are eeeeeeevil communists who were responsible for everything (which is just your stupid little argument and doesn't do justice to what happened there), that doesn't make what South Africa did right.

What South Africa did was wrong. Admit it. And apologise for saying it was right.

Right lets go through the timeline shall we.

Firstly in 1961 the legitimate government of Angola was the Portuguese colonial authority. A Marxist rebellion broke out and Cuba, in an act of unprovoked aggression against the Portuguese, gave military support to the rebellion. The Portuguese then did their duty as a government in attempting to put this rebellion down. The South African government (for its own reasons) assisted them in carrying out this duty. How was that doing the wrong thing?

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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No, I'm not going to play your games and get lost in your twisted accounts of history.

Once again, South Africa financed groups who went into villages, murdered childrens' parents in front of their eyes, filled the children with drugs, induced them in 'magical' rituals that involved cutting off people's body parts and then set them of against other villages.

South Africa did these things. What you say about Cuba's role in the conflict is incorrect, but regardless of what the Cubans did: even if your twisted version of history is the right one, then what South Africa did was still wrong.

You said (three times already) that what South Africa did was good and right. You are someone who supports killing childrens' parents before their eyes. You are some who supports forcing children to mutilate people. You are someone who says that a country who did these things was right. You disrepect the people who suffered from this for your smug little arguments.

You are despicable.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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At times like this I am reminded that von Clausewitz said the most dangerous people are the hard-working but stupid ones.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Bibliophile
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# 18418

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No, I'm not going to play your games and get lost in your twisted accounts of history.

Once again, South Africa financed groups who went into villages, murdered childrens' parents in front of their eyes, filled the children with drugs, induced them in 'magical' rituals that involved cutting off people's body parts and then set them of against other villages.

South Africa did these things. What you say about Cuba's role in the conflict is incorrect, but regardless of what the Cubans did: even if your twisted version of history is the right one, then what South Africa did was still wrong.

You said (three times already) that what South Africa did was good and right. You are someone who supports killing childrens' parents before their eyes. You are some who supports forcing children to mutilate people. You are someone who says that a country who did these things was right. You disrepect the people who suffered from this for your smug little arguments.

You are despicable.

Can I just clarify here what I am calling good. I am not calling the South African government backing of UNITA and RENAMO a 'good thing'. Both organisations were quite capable of being just as cruel and murderous as the communists they were fighting against. Indeed, as you know, UNITA were ex communists. I think that both wars were the result of communist aggression and violence but that does not make South Africa an innocent party in either case.

What I am calling good is the South African governments support for the Portuguese colonial authorities when they were faced with Marxism rebellion and Cuban aggression.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Bibliophile: What I am calling good is the South African governments support for the Portuguese colonial authorities when they were faced with Marxism rebellion and Cuban aggression.
That's just stupid.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Bibliophile
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# 18418

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Bibliophile: What I am calling good is the South African governments support for the Portuguese colonial authorities when they were faced with Marxism rebellion and Cuban aggression.
That's just stupid.
Why do you think that?
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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Bibliophile: Why do you think that?
No, that's the game I'm not going to play.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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If it's the case that rebellions are always bad and other governments should always side with the government being rebelled against, then...

Syria.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Bibliophile: Why do you think that?
No, that's the game I'm not going to play.
You've just described the terrible atrocities that were committed by both sides in the Angola and Mozambique civil wars. Those atrocities that happened in Angola were, as you know, carried out by the warring factions, the MPLA and UNITA.

The Portuguese were fighting against the MPLA and UNITA and for 13 years they successfully prevented these vile people from getting power. How is that not a good thing?

[ 21. August 2015, 00:44: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]

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lilBuddha
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Hmmm, maybe because the Portuguese are the source of modern Angolan problems? Or because the Portuguese, and their western allies, prolonged the conflict as part of their cold war against the USSR?

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Hallellou, hallellou

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romanlion
editorial comment
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Prolonging the cold war certainly couldn't have been a bad thing.

Last check I had it's been over now for decades.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Bibliophile
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# 18418

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Hmmm, maybe because the Portuguese are the source of modern Angolan problems? Or because the Portuguese, and their western allies, prolonged the conflict as part of their cold war against the USSR?

The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since. Its a bit rich to blame Portugal for modern Angola's problems.

As for prolonging the war, who was prolonging the war? The Portuguese were aiming to defeat the rebels as quickly as possible. It was governments such as Cuba and the Soviet Union who prolonged the war by supporting the rebellion. Without that support the Portuguese could have defeated the rebels and done so fairly quickly and Angola would have been spared decades of misery.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Prolonging the cold war certainly couldn't have been a bad thing.

Last check I had it's been over now for decades.

What would have been good about continuing it?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
... Firstly in 1961 the legitimate government of Angola was the Portuguese colonial authority. ...

Legitimate + colonial is an oxymoron.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Someone seriously thinks the South Africans were good during apartheid times? Where's my bastard file and where's my throwing axe?

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Someone seriously thinks the South Africans were good during apartheid times? Where's my bastard file and where's my throwing axe?

Well, the rich white ones were, and who else matters?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since.

The Angolan collapsed because the Portuguese, who were the skilled labour force, fucking left with no one prepared to take over. They fucked the Angolans for years and left.
If you are going to pretend to discuss history, at least read Wikipedia before spouting bullshit.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since.

The Angolan collapsed because the Portuguese, who were the skilled labour force, fucking left with no one prepared to take over. They fucked the Angolans for years and left.
If you are going to pretend to discuss history, at least read Wikipedia before spouting bullshit.

To describe the Portuguese government as a legitimate regime is far-fetched, as from 1933 it was run by the neo-Nazi Estado Nuevo as a one party state. Antonio Salazar led it until 1968, then Caetano until it fell in 1974. That swiftly led to the abandonment of Portugal's colonies such as Angola and Mozambique.

FWIW the Estado Nuevo included elements of the Communist Party, so no good can have ever come of that.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Bibliophile
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# 18418

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since.

The Angolan collapsed because the Portuguese, who were the skilled labour force, fucking left with no one prepared to take over. They fucked the Angolans for years and left.
If you are going to pretend to discuss history, at least read Wikipedia before spouting bullshit.

Why would the skilled labour force in Angola leave their established careers with nothing? Could it be that a violent Marxist dictatorship was coming to power, forcing them to become refugees? And you're blaming the economic collapse that followed this refugee crisis on the refugees themselves rather than on the marxist MPLA that created the crisis.
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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Bibliophile, doesn't it ever occur to you that real-life is rather more messy and nuanced than your proof-text approach to the universe?

[Roll Eyes]

It takes two sides to create and maintain a conflict.

Few wars in history have ever been a straight good guys in white hats versus bad guys in black hats issue.

It's as if you think that Marxist ideology is the source of all the evils in the world -- you get a similar thing with Russian conspiracy theorists who blame 'the West' for the rise of Hitler and who see some nefarious US-led capitalist plot behind everything that goes wrong in the world ...

'There's an earthquake in Turkmenistan ... I bet the CIA were to blame ...'

Can you not see how your argument is the EXACT equivalent of this sort of knee-jerk, knuckle-dragging, bone-headed single-issue approach to the world?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Whatever your views of Marxism, or apartheid, there is no way that things like the killing of Ruth First could ever be justified.

She was blown up by a parcel bomb sent to her in Mozambique from South Africa. It emerged after the fall of apartheid that what had been widely assumed about her death was true: the bomb was sent by the South African security service.

Ruth First's only crime was to be the wife of Joe Slovo and the mother of his three daughters.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Whatever your views of Marxism, or apartheid, there is no way that things like the killing of Ruth First could ever be justified.

She was blown up by a parcel bomb sent to her in Mozambique from South Africa. It emerged after the fall of apartheid that what had been widely assumed about her death was true: the bomb was sent by the South African security service.

Ruth First's only crime was to be the wife of Joe Slovo and the mother of his three daughters.

Yeah, but as Joe and at least one of his children were or grew up to be communists, ergo evil, his wife was a legitimate target.

Or something.

Now, who was the world's most vociferous and energetic anti-communist? Really took them on. What was his name again? That guy who stood for parliament in North Minehaad. No, it's gone. It'll come to me.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Why would the skilled labour force in Angola leave their established careers with nothing? Could it be that a violent Marxist dictatorship was coming to power, forcing them to become refugees? And you're blaming the economic collapse that followed this refugee crisis on the refugees themselves rather than on the marxist MPLA that created the crisis.

You can get into chicken and egg arguments about this sort of things very easily. "White flight" in the US immediately springs to mind.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since.

The Angolan collapsed because the Portuguese, who were the skilled labour force, fucking left with no one prepared to take over. They fucked the Angolans for years and left.
If you are going to pretend to discuss history, at least read Wikipedia before spouting bullshit.

Why would the skilled labour force in Angola leave their established careers with nothing? Could it be that a violent Marxist dictatorship was coming to power, forcing them to become refugees? And you're blaming the economic collapse that followed this refugee crisis on the refugees themselves rather than on the marxist MPLA that created the crisis.
The Portuguse regime had just collapsed and the empire had simply been thrown away. Much like Britain in 410AD, there wasn't an Anglo-Saxon invasion then but the Romans left because of trouble back home.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Why would the skilled labour force in Angola leave their established careers with nothing? Could it be that a violent Marxist dictatorship was coming to power, forcing them to become refugees? And you're blaming the economic collapse that followed this refugee crisis on the refugees themselves rather than on the marxist MPLA that created the crisis.

Refugees? Really? The people who had oppressed Africans for centuries are regugees?
Apparently, enslaving people, stealing their land, etc is OK if you ado it in the name of anything but communism.

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Baptist Trainfan
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I lived in a former Portuguese African colony, Guinea-Bissau, for five years in total between the end of 1979 and mid-1986. This was a country which the Portuguese had seen as little more than a "cash cow" - it had taken its peanuts but little else (unlike other countries, it is not rich in minerals). Conversely very little development of the most basic infrastructure took place until the 1960s - for instance the country had (and has) not a yard of proper railway line.

Things did change in the 1960s as the revolutionary PAIGC movement began an intense civil war. The entire economy of Bissau, the capital, changed as large numbers of troops moved in to prosecute the war; shopkeepers, for example, prospered. Equally, the Portuguese began a "hearts and minds" campaign under the slogan of "a better Guinea" - their promise was that they would be able to develop the country for its people in ways that would be impossible for the PAIGC.

But of course the "winds of change" were sweeping over Africa and it was quite possibly the pointlessness of the Guinea campaign, more than any other, which caused the military leaders to stage a coup d'état in Lisbon in 1974. The effect in both Portugal and its former colonies was immediate and profound. In Africa Marxist governments took over from the former Fascist Portuguese authorities, while Portugal itself staggered towards a modern multiparty democracy (political posters and graffiti covered absolutely every surface, governments collapsed and reformed with almost monotonous regularity!) Something like a million expatriate Portuguese returned to the motherland within a few months; as the total population was only about 9 million this caused huge problems with housing. Shanty towns arose all round the edge of Lisbon, whose population had increased by something like 50% almost overnight.

The former colonies began independent life with great optimism. But Portugal - itself a remarkably undeveloped country - had trained up few officials, so the administration and finances rapidly collapsed into chaos. In Angola and Mozambique there were also old scores to settle between rival independence groups - this was less of a problem in Guinea although the PAIGC could have been challenged by another group called FLING. The economies were propped up for a few years by states such as Cuba and the Soviet Union; the West basically didn't want to know which led to their long-term loss of influence.

By the time we left Guinea it was officially one of the three poorest countries of the world. Many people were saying, "If only we could have the 'tugas' (Portuguese) back". One local tribal chief caused controversy by being buried with his body wrapped in a Portuguese flag, which was flown over his hut during the funeral. Now Guinea has become a failed state totally living at the behest of drug smugglers from South America. The naïve optimism of those early years, which I just about witnessed, has gone.

The colonial system was wrong, I am in no doubt of that - especially as the Portuguese (like the Belgians in Congo) could be harsh taskmasters. But I also think that many Portuguese who went "overseas" to find a better life and then lost everything were indeed genuine refugees. I don't think that one can always see these issues in absolute or binary terms.

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Refugees? Really? The people who had oppressed Africans for centuries are regugees?
Apparently, enslaving people, stealing their land, etc is OK if you ado it in the name of anything but communism.

Any people forced out of where they live, regardless of the history, colonial or otherwise, can be refugees. Begin a refugee is separate from the level of concern and support for being a refugee. Another example would be Germans living in what is now Poland but was East Prussia, who were forced out in 1945-8. Or Greeks forced out of Anatolia by Turks in 1922. Or North American Indians forced onto reserves. We may think that making some people refugees is entirely reasonable at times.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

But I also think that many Portuguese who went "overseas" to find a better life and then lost everything were indeed genuine refugees. I don't think that one can always see these issues in absolute or binary terms.

Were they also blind? Because one would have to be at the very least blind to not be aware that their "better life" came at the expense of others.

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JonahMan
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

But I also think that many Portuguese who went "overseas" to find a better life and then lost everything were indeed genuine refugees. I don't think that one can always see these issues in absolute or binary terms.

Were they also blind? Because one would have to be at the very least blind to not be aware that their "better life" came at the expense of others.
I'm pretty sure that everyone everywhere living a better life does so at the expense of others. Including me.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

But I also think that many Portuguese who went "overseas" to find a better life and then lost everything were indeed genuine refugees. I don't think that one can always see these issues in absolute or binary terms.

Were they also blind? Because one would have to be at the very least blind to not be aware that their "better life" came at the expense of others.
I'm pretty sure that everyone everywhere living a better life does so at the expense of others. Including me.
Wow, this such such a nonsense response that it is difficult to know where to start.
This is akin to saying being swatted on the bum as a child is akin to another being beaten to death.

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LeRoc

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I know much less about the civil war in Angola than the one in Mozambique, simply because I spend much more time in the latter country. I also think the war in Angola was more complex.

I like to discuss with people about the war in Angola, even those who don't agree with me, to get to know more about the subject. I've already spoken with people on both sides of that war, and that has been very enlightening.

But not with an intellectual low-flyer whose moral compass is so twisted he thinks that António fucking Salazar is justified while Nelson Mandela is the bad guy. You have some serious problems, but I'm not the one who's going to cure you. What I do hold against you is your disrespect for the victims of these wars, saying that what was done against them was good and right.

A small thing: Baptist Trainfan has already said this, but I don't think there were many educated Angolan people leaving the country at independence. There were very few people in this category, simply because the Portuguese didn't allow many native people to be educated. There were only few exceptions to this. Combine this with the fact that the Portuguese burnt factories and drove tractors into the sea when they left, that many countries closed their markets for Angolan goods, and you've got a pretty good picture of the immediate economic downfall. The fact that South African soldiers started fucking things up didn't help much either.

I don't have a problem with Baptist Trainfan calling some of the Portuguese refugees. Does the fact that a country is an oppressive force make all individuals from that country oppressors? I'm willing to allow some nuance in that.

I do feel that expressions like "I wish the tugas were back" are mostly romantic bullshit. Something I hear a lot in North-East Brazil is "I wish the Dutch had stayed". People who say this should take a look at Surinam.

[ 21. August 2015, 16:56: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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I've been to Surinam. (and the 2 Guyanas) I agree with you. Among the friendliest people on earth with difficult past and present.

[ 21. August 2015, 17:02: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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lilBuddha
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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

Does the fact that a country is an oppressive force make all individuals from that country oppressors? I'm willing to allow some nuance in that.

The answer is yes and that nuance exists.
Look, I am not so unreasonable as to say the least German during Hitler's regime is a war criminal. And there is a load of situational nuance involved in any of our behaviour. But it remains that we allow what our governments do. It is not zero-sum, and I think looking at it that way makes for allowances. Some justified, some not.

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JonahMan
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

But I also think that many Portuguese who went "overseas" to find a better life and then lost everything were indeed genuine refugees. I don't think that one can always see these issues in absolute or binary terms.

Were they also blind? Because one would have to be at the very least blind to not be aware that their "better life" came at the expense of others.
I'm pretty sure that everyone everywhere living a better life does so at the expense of others. Including me.
Wow, this such such a nonsense response that it is difficult to know where to start.
This is akin to saying being swatted on the bum as a child is akin to another being beaten to death.

Not really, it is more akin to saying that both involve physical violence. I would certainly agree that the Portuguese in that situation were benefitting to a greater, and to a more obvious degree. But you and I are also living at other's expense. Or are you under the impression that, for example, the computer you're using to post with was entirely using well-paid, happy labour? That all the elements used to make it were mined by happy people with no chance of death or injury? The same applies to virtually every other aspect of life, to some extent. Not as extreme as life under apartheid, perhaps. But not far off in many cases, and in all cases it is a matter of degree, not kind.

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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I know much less about the civil war in Angola than the one in Mozambique, simply because I spend much more time in the latter country. I also think the war in Angola was more complex.

I like to discuss with people about the war in Angola, even those who don't agree with me, to get to know more about the subject. I've already spoken with people on both sides of that war, and that has been very enlightening.

But not with an intellectual low-flyer whose moral compass is so twisted he thinks that António fucking Salazar is justified while Nelson Mandela is the bad guy. You have some serious problems, but I'm not the one who's going to cure you. What I do hold against you is your disrespect for the victims of these wars, saying that what was done against them was good and right.

As I keep saying I wasn't talking about the Angolan civil war when I said South Africa did a good thing in intervening. There weren't really any 'good guys' in that war, the MPLA and UNITA both being quite loathsome organisations.

I have been repeatedly accused of simplistic binary classifications of people as good or evil and yet that is exactly what you are doing here. You talk about 'listening to both sides' but what I suspect you mean is listening to both anti-colonial groups, the MPLA and UNITA. You are obviously so filled with anti-colonial fanaticism that the very idea that the Portuguese colonial authorities might have been justified in some things sends you into a rage. You think yourself evenhanded for listening to the point of view of the MPLA side and the UNITA side but when someone puts the Portuguese side your evenhandedness shows its limits.

I don't think that António Salazar was a saint but neither was he a devil. Like Mandela he did some good things and he did some bad things. If you want to make comparisons of character I think he was clearly a better political leader and a morally better human being than either Agostinho Neto or Jonas Savimbi or Samora Machel. That is not a particularly high point of praise but nevertheless its true.

Just because there were plenty of bad things about the Salazar government doesn't mean they were unjustified in everything they did. In the Angolan war I think the Portuguese were justified in trying to defeat the marxists.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
You are obviously so filled with anti-colonial fanaticism that the very idea that the Portuguese colonial authorities might have been justified in some things sends you into a rage.

Pot, meet kettle.

Colonialism is vile, evil ideology. It assumes that one nation has the right to govern lands that are not their own, based solely on being the stronger nation - usually military strength, often economic strength. It assumes that the foreign government has the right to exploit the natural resources of the governed, for the benefit of the colonial power without needing to consider benefit to the governed. Extending empires, through war or economic pressure, has given us the trans-Atlantic slave trade condemning millions to horrendous shipment and if they were "lucky" enough to survive to life of servitude with no rights, and no rights for their children. It gave us gunships sailing into China and Japan to force open trade, in some cases where the product was opium. It gave us the Belgians destroying the Congo and umpteen other examples of atrocities. I could go on. Ultimately apartheid was another example of the evils of colonialism.

Compared to all that evil inflicted by foreign powers, is it any wonder so many people decided to take up arms to liberate themselves and gain the chance of governing themselves?

But, oh that's the most evil of evil. To rebel against "legitimate" authority. Even though colonial power had no authority at all. Who was there objecting to European nations overthrowing the legitimate authorities that governed those lands before they arrived with the guns, slaveships, miners and bankers?

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LeRoc

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quote:
Bibliophile: I have been repeatedly accused of simplistic binary classifications of people as good or evil and yet that is exactly what you are doing here. You talk about 'listening to both sides' but what I suspect you mean is listening to both anti-colonial groups, the MPLA and UNITA.
Two things I didn't say. Understanding what you're reading isn't your strongest point either. You're just too dumb.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
But you and I are also living at other's expense. Or are you under the impression that, for example, the computer you're using to post with was entirely using well-paid, happy labour?

Look, I get this. And I do not care for this being the case. Not sure everyone who uses electronic devices does know, though. Really hard to say this for first-worlders living in Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:

The same applies to virtually every other aspect of life, to some extent. Not as extreme as life under apartheid, perhaps. But not far off in many cases, and in all cases it is a matter of degree, not kind.

And to the extent you do nothing to change this, you are guilty as well. To a degree.
But are you suggesting that, because we cannot live completely ethically, we cannot condemn atrocity?
It is not completely clean your own house and then call for change elsewhere, it is do both.

[ 21. August 2015, 19:44: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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JonahMan
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
But you and I are also living at other's expense. Or are you under the impression that, for example, the computer you're using to post with was entirely using well-paid, happy labour?

Look, I get this. And I do not care for this being the case. Not sure everyone who uses electronic devices does know, though. Really hard to say this for first-worlders living in Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:

The same applies to virtually every other aspect of life, to some extent. Not as extreme as life under apartheid, perhaps. But not far off in many cases, and in all cases it is a matter of degree, not kind.

And to the extent you do nothing to change this, you are guilty as well. To a degree.
But are you suggesting that, because we cannot live completely ethically, we cannot condemn atrocity?
It is not completely clean your own house and then call for change elsewhere, it is do both.

I quite agree. Not sure why you were getting your knickers in a twist in the first place. I certainly didn't say we shouldn't condemn apartheid or any other regime or economic system that generates injustice. I was merely pointing out that our hands are by no means clean either.

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And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Bibliophile: I have been repeatedly accused of simplistic binary classifications of people as good or evil and yet that is exactly what you are doing here. You talk about 'listening to both sides' but what I suspect you mean is listening to both anti-colonial groups, the MPLA and UNITA.
Two things I didn't say. Understanding what you're reading isn't your strongest point either. You're just too dumb.
I didn't say that you had accused me of simplistic binary thinking, I said that I had repeatedly accused of it here, which I have been.

On the second point you said

quote:
I like to discuss with people about the war in Angola, even those who don't agree with me, to get to know more about the subject. I've already spoken with people on both sides of that war, and that has been very enlightening.
So you said that you spoke with people 'on both sides' and that it was 'very enlightening', in other words that you listened to people on both sides.
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Gamaliel
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Bibliophile, you are either not very bright or pretty stupid. I'm not sure which.

Whatever the case, you aren't very clever. Sorry, but there it is. I don't agree with everyone who disagrees with you but let's face it, you've got about as much nuance as something that has no nuance.

At least you've admitted at last that Mandela had some good points as well as bad.

That has to be some progress.

Where are you studying, by the way? Non Nuance University, Binary Ville, Black and White County, Minnesota?

If you are wondering why people are getting this impression of you, here's a tip ... read your own posts.

'Who can discern his errors?'

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Sioni Sais
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Gamaliel, I suspect Bibliophile is actually very clever indeed, with an IQ of c 140. He cannot however accept any information that is at odds with his own preconceptions and prejudices.

It's all part of the authoritarian personality - read "The Psychology of Military Incompetence" by N F Dixon, which shows how a lot of Bibliophile's traits are a Bad Thing for military commanders (and anyone else in command).

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Polly

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quote:
Bibliophile posted:
I have been repeatedly accused of simplistic binary classifications of people as good or evil and yet that is exactly what you are doing here.

No - that is not why people are challenging you on this forum.

quote:
If peaceful and lawful protests do not induce the authorities to enact social reform then the correct solution is to respect the authorities' decision.

It is for posts such as this where you have continued to demonstrate any real empathy or shown any compassion for the thousands who suffered under apartheid.

Your sources have continued to be shown as weak at best and when others have highlighted the plight of what so many non-whites went through your only response was that they were "sad".

"Sad" - how can anyone listen to such stories and say they are "sad". Those stories (20000 recorded by the TRC) are hideous, awful, truly disgusting that a human can do that to another.

In addition the OP you began was about the 'idolising' of Mandela. Absolutely everyone else has acknowledged that he wasn't perfect but someone who was driven to actions (inc violence against the state) after every effort to pursue peaceful protests failed. The provocation he and non-whites endured again was in-humane but you still wanted to dismiss such treatment.

What you have also failed to grasp is that people change. Mandela was not the angry man going into prison when he was released.

Your continued unwillingness to see the political Landscape in shades of grey has meant again you have failed to see the achievements of Mandela and his supporters. Reconciliation was never a full gone conclusion and a thirst for 'justice' could have easily began.

These are just some of things why you have been called to this forum.

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