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Source: (consider it) Thread: Bibliophile evil little worm
Gamaliel
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# 812

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Sure, Sioni, Bibliophile probably is clever - but he's not very intelligent. There is a difference. His level of emotional intelligence is very low indeed - judging by his posts.

He sounds like a Tea Party version of Mr Spock.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
I quite agree. Not sure why you were getting your knickers in a twist in the first place. I certainly didn't say we shouldn't condemn apartheid or any other regime or economic system that generates injustice.

I do tend to react strongly, so I re-read the post. And, in the context of the thread, it still appears that you were minimising the Portuguese culpability in Africa.
I accept that you are not, but it it still reads that way.
Could just be me, though.
quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
I was merely pointing out that our hands are by no means clean either.

Preach it. On the first world's negative impact on the planet, I have a fairly constant record of being a PITA.*


*Slang for a person with a strong opinion.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, Sioni, Bibliophile probably is clever - but he's not very intelligent. There is a difference. His level of emotional intelligence is very low indeed - judging by his posts.

I think that is accurate: I have him down as Articulate Stupid. And, as you say, a moral idiot.

It raises the question as to whether we are dealing with the ineducable. We've seen other instances over the years of the obsessively opinionated, lacking empathy and unable, apparently, to process certain aspects of language.

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LeRoc

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I disagree with the 'clever' part. He knows one debating trick, and he uses it to wind up people, first about feminism, then about Nelson Mandela ... (I wonder what the next one will be). I'm going to stick with dumb.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Gamaliel, I suspect Bibliophile is actually very clever indeed, with an IQ of c 140. He cannot however accept any information that is at odds with his own preconceptions and prejudices.

It's all part of the authoritarian personality - read "The Psychology of Military Incompetence" by N F Dixon, which shows how a lot of Bibliophile's traits are a Bad Thing for military commanders (and anyone else in command).

Well I have never heard of D F Dixon but I have heard of people like Fromm and Adorno. Of course they were social scientists with openly far left sympathies who wrote works pathologising right wing thinking. Whist I have not studied their work I can't help suspecting that their conclusions were heavily influenced by their own political biases. Your reference to 'the authoritarian personality' leads me to suspect that Dixon may have been following this school of thought.
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Alan Cresswell

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The solution to not knowing what someone has written is simple. Get a copy of the relevant books and read what they say. Shouldn't be difficult for a self confessed lover of books.

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Sioni Sais
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FWIW Norman Dixon served in the Royal Engineers then studied psychology, becoming professor at University College London. He also taught at Sandhurst, the British Army's college.

He's very hot on cognitive dissonance (and the roots of authoritarianism, like a lack of affirmation in infancy). Read up on this concepts and try, for the first time in your miserable life, to comprehend objectively. If you can't then you probably stand as an example.

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ThunderBunk

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Perhaps right-wing "thinking" simply is pathological, when you exclude its central presumption that a particular group always has the right to privilege. Strangely enough, it never looks pathological to members of that group...

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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The solution to not knowing what someone has written is simple. Get a copy of the relevant books and read what they say. Shouldn't be difficult for a self confessed lover of books.

Well I've just had a look at Forward and Preface of 'The Authoritarian Personality' where it it pretty much openly admitted that the work was driven by political bias

from Horkheimer's forward to the work
quote:
Our aim is not merely to describe prejudice but to explain it in order to help in its eradication. That is the challenge we would meet. Eradication means re-education, scientifically planned on the basis of understanding scientifically arrived at. And education in a strict sense is by its nature personal and psychological.
From the preface also by Horkheimer

quote:
The present work, we hope, will find a place in this history of the interdependence between science and the cultural climate. Its ultimate goal is to open new avenues in a research area which can become of immediate practical significance. It seeks to develop and promote an understanding of social-psychological factors which have made it possible for the authoritarian type of man to threaten to replace the individualistic and democratic type prevalent in the past century and a half of our civilization, and of the factors by which this threat may be contained. Progressive analysis of this new "anthropological" type and of its growth conditions, with an ever increasing scientific differentiation, will enhance the chances of a genuinely educational counterattack.
So in other words there isn't even a pretence of scientific objectivity. Horkheimer is effectively stating that the authors work was politically motivated, that they started out with a political motivation i.e. that they wanted to attack 'the authoritarian personality'. This motivated the conclusion that they wanted to reach i.e. that 'the authoritarian personality' was pathological and that the studies were specifically designed to produce that conclusion. The fact that the notorious pseudo scientist Sigmund Freud is also singled out for high praise in the preface doesn't bode well for work in the book.
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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
FWIW Norman Dixon served in the Royal Engineers then studied psychology, becoming professor at University College London. He also taught at Sandhurst, the British Army's college

I hope you aren't suggesting that his work has added authority because he was a military officer and taught at a military academy. That would be very authoritarian of you!
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
FWIW Norman Dixon served in the Royal Engineers then studied psychology, becoming professor at University College London. He also taught at Sandhurst, the British Army's college

I hope you aren't suggesting that his work has added authority because he was a military officer and taught at a military academy. That would be very authoritarian of you!
No, I thought it might, just, be a counter to your automatic and prejudiced assumption that anything left-wing must be evil. Anyway, Dixon's book explains that many poor or inadequate military commanders (especially those out of their depth) displayed authoritarian traits. That is not the same as authoritative ones. Those two things are very different.

All you do is simply react to what is presented to you rather than think about it. I can't wait for the schools to go back.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Where are you studying, by the way? Non Nuance University, Binary Ville, Black and White County, Minnesota?

If you want to see binary thinking look at some of the posts here. Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s. They have not responded with any reasoned counter arguments or any real counter arguments but with simple fury.

Agostinho Neto, Jonas Savimbi and Samora Machel were all men who used violence to take power in countries that had been poor and lacking in political freedom and managed to make those countries poorer and significantly less free. For all his many faults Salazar was clearly a better human being than all three of them and in this case he was in the right to oppose them.

The response has not been any reasoned nuanced argument that 'FRELIMO and the MPLA were better than the Portuguese because of xyz'. The response has simply been to call me mad and/or stupid and/or evil.

[ 22. August 2015, 10:18: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]

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LeRoc

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quote:
Bibliophile: Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s.
Random accusations of things I didn't do? Again?

If you think that Salazar was a better man than Machel, then you're clearly disturbed. But no, I'm not going to have a discussion about Angolan and Mozambican history with someone I have to explain first to what the problem with Salazarian colonialism is. This says more about you than about anything else.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Bibliophile: Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s.
Random accusations of things I didn't do? Again?

If you think that Salazar was a better man than Machel, then you're clearly disturbed. But no, I'm not going to have a discussion about Angolan and Mozambican history with someone I have to explain first to what the problem with Salazarian colonialism is. This says more about you than about anything else.

Consider this: Salazar was a white, European neo-fascist (or possibly neo-Nazi). Savimbi, Machel and Nelson Mandela too weren't any of those things.

I'm reluctant to call Bibliophile a racist (too easy) but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I say it's a duck.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
FWIW Norman Dixon served in the Royal Engineers then studied psychology, becoming professor at University College London. He also taught at Sandhurst, the British Army's college

I hope you aren't suggesting that his work has added authority because he was a military officer and taught at a military academy. That would be very authoritarian of you!
Whereas everybody else assumes that citing Dixon's credentials means that he has relevant experience and may actually know what he's talking about.

Unlike you.

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Forward the New Republic

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LeRoc

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quote:
Sioni Sais: Consider this: Salazar was a white, European neo-fascist (or possibly neo-Nazi). Savimbi, Machel and Nelson Mandela too weren't any of those things.
I would like to take Savimbi out of this sequence.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
. Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s. They have not responded with any reasoned counter arguments or any real counter arguments but with simple fury.

Agostinho Neto, Jonas Savimbi and Samora Machel were all men who used violence to take power in countries that had been poor and lacking in political freedom and managed to make those countries poorer and significantly less free. For all his many faults Salazar was clearly a better human being than all three of them and in this case he was in the right to oppose them.

The response has not been any reasoned nuanced argument that 'FRELIMO and the MPLA were better than the Portuguese because of xyz'. The response has simply been to call me mad and/or stupid and/or evil.

It is to laugh.
So, being against stealing the land of others and then forcing them to serve you is a bad thing?
Yes, Salazar, that wonderful humanitarian who created de facto slavery in Africa. His atrocities don't matter? Because he was white of because he was fascist?

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
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You can say a lot, both pro and con, about Salazar and the Estado Novo, but that he/it was in any meaningful sense (neo-)Nazi? Would someone like to attempt to justify that particular label?

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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Baptist Trainfan
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There were strange contradictions in Salazar. On the one hand he was a Fascist autocrat with a vicious secret police (the PIDE). Personally he was a devout Catholic who lived modestly and aspired for every Portuguese to have a "little house" of their own.

A former friend of mine - a retired Labour MP no less! - once met Salazar when he was visiting Portugal with a group of socialist students in the 1950s. As they quietly sat by the river a gentleman came to join them and they suddenly realised who it was. Politically they were poles apart yet they had a civilised and gracious conversation.

Please don't think I'm defending him and his regime: I'm not. (I had a friend who was living in Lisbon in the early 70s and saw the police harshly put down a peaceful demonstration in the Praca da Figueirs). But he was very different from Mussolini or Hitler.

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lilBuddha
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I did not compare him to either Hitler or Mussolini, nor did I call him a Nazi.. But he admired Mussolini and supported Franco.
Fascist-lite, then? Or perhaps para-fascist, as he has been described?
Still a bastard as far as African's are concerned.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Baptist Trainfan
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I don't disagree with any of that.
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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
You can say a lot, both pro and con, about Salazar and the Estado Novo, but that he/it was in any meaningful sense (neo-)Nazi? Would someone like to attempt to justify that particular label?

I can see this discussion getting a little heated here so I've started a new thread in the purgatory section of the board.
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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Bibliophile: Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s.
Random accusations of things I didn't do? Again?

If you think that Salazar was a better man than Machel, then you're clearly disturbed. But no, I'm not going to have a discussion about Angolan and Mozambican history with someone I have to explain first to what the problem with Salazarian colonialism is. This says more about you than about anything else.

Consider this: Salazar was a white, European neo-fascist (or possibly neo-Nazi). Savimbi, Machel and Nelson Mandela too weren't any of those things.
I didn't say Salazar was a better human being than Mandela. I think they were both flawed human beings who had good points and bad points.

Most people agree about what a nasty piece of work Savimbi was.

Machel and Salazar were both dictators. Machel wrecked his country's economy and murdered tens of thousands of alleged opponents. Salazar didn't.

None of them were neo-fascist or neo-nazi.

[ 22. August 2015, 17:39: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]

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lilBuddha
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You really are a tool, Bibliophile. Bet Salizar made the trains run on time too. [Roll Eyes]

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Kelly Alves

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Gotta say it, this guy has a gift for bringing out epic levels of brilliant in people.

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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Below the Lansker
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You really are a tool, Bibliophile. Bet Salizar made the trains run on time too. [Roll Eyes]

This is Portugal we are talking about. I lived and worked there for 23 years - it is a fascinating country and they are wonderful people, but I don't think even the most patriotic of Portuguese would claim that time-keeping is their strong point. Even a dictator can't change that ...
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Gamaliel
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How are Le Roc, Firenze and Lil' Buddha any more or less 'fanatical' in their political and anti-colonial beliefs than you are in your rather right-wing Tea Party-esque ones?

What makes them wrong and you right?

It's only in very recent posts that you've acknowledged that Mandela had any redeeming features at all. Whenever anyone has so much as suggested that he did something right or honourable you have tried to demonstrate otherwise.

I was half-expecting you to suggest that Idi Amin was a better human being than Nelson Mandela because at least Idi Amin - for all his appalling record on human rights - had never been a Communist ...

It's not just the lefties who are disagreeing with you, Bibliophile, some very moderate Shipmates are too - and also a number who have either lived and worked in Portugal or Mozambique or South Africa and other places beyond wherever it is you have your nose stuck in a book.

Instead of conceding that they might just, just might, have some kind of insight into the situations that prevailed on the ground in those countries you dismiss their observations as 'fanatical' and act as if you have access to far superior knowledge and intelligence - which is patently not the case.

You then wonder why people lose patience with you.

I've got no axe to grind here -- I've never visited Southern Africa and I've only spent 5 days in Portugal - back in 1980 which was a few years after the end of the Salazar regime.

The impression I picked up, though, was that the RC Church had lost a lot of credibility due to its connections with the Salazar regime. I also met a fluently English-speaking Portuguese chap who was visiting his homeland after years in South Africa and he was remarkably racist. He complained that the 'blacks' in Zambia and Zimbabwe no longer crossed the road out of respect for a white person approaching them along the pavement (sidewalk) - as if this was the proper deference and response that they should show.

Other than that, all the Portuguese I met were wonderfully warm and hospitable. I liked them a lot.

I don't always agree with the posters you mention - but I certainly don't see any of them as 'fanatical' anti-colonialists. Rather, I see them as people I may differ with in some respects but nevertheless people who have insights and experiences that are interesting and informative.

They speak from a position of knowledge - first hand experience and engagement.

You don't.

To be frank you sound like someone who can't think for himself but swallows everything he reads in Neo-Con literature and the rather blinkered viewpoint of the US religious right.

It also sounds very wooden - as though you are regurgitating it from some kind of Tea Party/Neo-Con text book.

Sure, there are people on the Left who can sound like that too - in the opposite direction and from their equivalent / parallel texts - but that's not how the Shipmates you've mentioned come across to me.

I'm afraid you come across as a rather spikey, preppy US undergraduate with an axe to grind who would benefit from some time abroad where he could see first hand how other people live and where he can learn from their perspectives rather than a kind of black and white, good guy / bad guy Hollywood Western view of the world.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Bibliophile, you are either not very bright or pretty stupid. I'm not sure which.

Agreed.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Where are you studying, by the way? Non Nuance University, Binary Ville, Black and White County, Minnesota?

Blow it out your ass. Sideways. With shrapnel.

AFAIK, he's not from here. And if you're looking for backwards-thinking places, there's plenty on your own sceptred isle to pick from, thanks.

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--Elbert Hubbard

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Gamaliel
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I never said otherwise.

If Bibliophile were from Yorkshire, say, I'd be saying exactly the same thing.

Only I'd change the name of the location to reflect that.

I only used 'Minnesota' because it's somewhere Mid-Western and 'fly-over' - like Idaho and those other places that we'd be hard pushed to locate on a map.

For all I know, Minnesota might be the very soul of nuanced thinking and subtlety. I only know of it through 'The Great Northfield Minnesota Bank Raid' and stories of Jesse James.

That might tell you more about Hollywood and more about me than it tells you about Minnesota itself.

In fact I'm sure it does.

Don't be so sensitive. I could find plenty of places over here to 'stand in' for some obscure spot out on the mid-western Plains.

I'm sure intelligent life doesn't end at the Missippi/Missouri and resume again somewhere west of Colorado or a thin coastal strip from Seattle down to San Francisco ...

--------------------
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Albertus
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I thought Minnesota was full of Scandinavian Social Democrats/ Agrarians. Even that populist independent Governor, Jesse Ventura, that they had in the 90s seemed to be relatively progressive and decent.
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Gamaliel
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If it helps, I could change the name of the State to one that doesn't actually exist - something like 'Binasota' or something that bore no relation whatsoever to any US State real or imagined.

Was Lake Begone in Minnesota?

If so, I have heard rather more about it than Jesse James.

Whatever the case, we seem agreed on other aspects so I'm more than happy to retract my inadvertent calumny against your home-state.

I think I knew St Paul was in Minnesota. I'm sure it's a very fine place.

Minnesota Vikings. There. That's something else I've heard of. Should there be more?

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Sorry, cross-posted with Albertus. Yes, I've heard of them ...

In which case, even more apologies for my calumny against Minnesota.

I should have gone with Idaho but I thought that would be too obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7t7cGwN7_0

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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You could have gone with Alaska. Bibliophile makes Sarah Palin seem intelligent, well informed and moderate by comparison. Though, if comet's around at the moment you might want to reconsider that.

Or Texas. I'm sure Bibliophile would agree that Obama is leading a Commie plot to invade through tunnels connecting Walmart stores.

But, yes he could be from over here. We do, after all, have Neanderthals who think voting BNP is a good idea. His support for European colonialism would certainly be more consistent with BNP/UKIP harking back to the "good old days" of the British Empire and our kindly and compassionate bearing of the White Mans Burden looking after the interests of the ignorant savages of Africa and Asia.

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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
One underlying question - what is the precise utility of this game of Who Was the Greater Bastard in History? Is it a proxy war for our own beliefs and ideology? An attempt to understand the world that Figure X left us? What?

This isn't about who is the greatest bastard in history, but what makes the greatest bastard. And the answer is communism.
Communism is Teh Evilz no matter what.
Fascism isn't that bad unless it gets too crazy with the white peoples.
Colonialism is fine because it prevents Communism.
Communism is truly horrible, bad, nasty, rotten and not nice full stop. Even if it is a reaction to theft, murder, rape, slavery, torture, oppression and kicking puppies.
Kicking puppies is a positive good, if those puppies are communist.

I wouldn't say that communism is the sole source of evil in the world, far from it.

I would also point out that a number of posters here, including yourself, have expressed very black and white views on colonialism, expressing extreme hostility to colonialism and arguing along the lines that colonial administrations are always illegitimate and are always in the wrong when they conflict with 'liberation movements'. For you and some others here colonialism is 'Teh Evilz no matter what.'

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lilBuddha
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Really? So, then, educate me. How is colonialism good?

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:

hostility to colonialism and arguing along the lines that colonial administrations are always illegitimate

So please tell us which colonial administrations were so legitimate that they should never have been challenged by any notion of democracy however mild. Then we can invite the representatives of those colonized to tell you to go and fuck yourself.
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Gamaliel
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# 812

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The thing is, Bibliophile, if you go back far enough then hardly any government is 'legitimate' in the terms you appear to advocate ie. they've not come into being by rebelling against someone or something else.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your over-riding criterion seems to be that the legitimacy or otherwise of any government or system is the extent to which it has or hasn't rebelled against some former power ...

You keep citing the Pauline injunction about respecting and obeying the civil authorities as if that is some kind of universal blue-print or yardstick without any form of context.

Sure, I'm not about to take up arms against Cameron nor would I advocate anyone else doing so ... but you've criticised Washington and the Founding Fathers of your own country for rebelling against George III ... which is fine by me as I often tease right-wing Americans about that ... but by the same token the Jacobites would have considered themselves the legitimate monarchy here rather than the Hanoverians ...

How far back do you want to go?

Was William the Conqueror any more or less legitimate a ruler than the Harold he deposed?

Should we even celebrate or recognise any of the Anglo-Saxon rulers because they were johnny-come-latelys and the native British were here first ...

Sure, we can believe in a Providence working in and through all these things - the good, the bad, the indifferent - but it often sounds here that any form of government is legitimate in your view provided it's not a Marxist one or provided it hasn't come into being by deposing a previous regime.

By that token and standard you could write-off almost every single government or system that there has ever been ...

France is desperately compromised, then, because of the Revolution, so is the US, so is Russia, so is practically everywhere else.

Give us an example of a government or system which isn't compromised in some way by your standards.

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Bibliophile
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# 18418

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Really? So, then, educate me. How is colonialism good?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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People, please! Don't give the tool any fuel, you will complicate the response. Let him set himself up.

Edited to address the x-post: Use your words, Bibliophobe. Your own words.

[ 24. August 2015, 18:42: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Bibliophile
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# 18418

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Edited to address the x-post: Use your words, Bibliophobe. Your own words.

Colonialism brought medicine, literacy, modern systems of law and government, trade, transportation, railways, the wheel etc to large parts of the world. People sometimes complain that the the progress was not enough, but there was economic and social progress where before there was none.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Colonialism brought medicine, literacy, modern systems of law and government, trade, transportation, railways, the wheel etc to large parts of the world. People sometimes complain that the the progress was not enough, but there was economic and social progress where before there was none.

With only a modicum of rape, pillage, racial cleansing, war, disease, slavery, raw resource stealing, deliberate mass addiction, economic blackmail, piracy and so on.

Ungrateful swine.

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arse

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Don't forget buying a slave girl so the whiskey maker could watch cannibals eat her.
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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Edited to address the x-post: Use your words, Bibliophobe. Your own words.

Colonialism brought medicine, literacy, modern systems of law and government, trade, transportation, railways, the wheel etc to large parts of the world. People sometimes complain that the the progress was not enough, but there was economic and social progress where before there was none.
Well you would say that, wouldn't you, as a citizen of the world's largest surviving and most thoroughly dominant colonial empire.

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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Y'know, I was going to reach for the clue bat, but I think this problem is at least an order of magnitude more serious. Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a clue tactical-nuke?
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Don't forget buying a slave girl so the whiskey maker could watch cannibals eat her.

Probably untrue

[ 24. August 2015, 20:22: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Edited to address the x-post: Use your words, Bibliophobe. Your own words.

Colonialism brought medicine, literacy, modern systems of law and government, trade, transportation, railways, the wheel etc to large parts of the world. People sometimes complain that the the progress was not enough, but there was economic and social progress where before there was none.
As mr cheesy illustrates, not without some serious baggage.
Your defence is kinda like suggesting a rape victim should be grateful because she got a pelvic exam during treatment.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Was Lake Begone in Minnesota?

Lake Wobegon. Yes, indeed. A lovely portrait of an ideal rural town.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If so, I have heard rather more about it than Jesse James

That's nice to hear. Although the locals in Northfield are quick to tell you that their town chased his gang off - killed some, and jailed a couple more.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Whatever the case, we seem agreed on other aspects so I'm more than happy to retract my inadvertent calumny against your home-state

Your gracious apology is accepted. [Biased]

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think I knew St Paul was in Minnesota. I'm sure it's a very fine place.

It's not bad. My wife is from there. I mean, it's nothing to compare to Minneapolis, but it's a nice place to visit.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Minnesota Vikings. There. That's something else I've heard of. Should there be more?

Undoubtedly - but we've probably derailed this thread enough. It's really about Bibliophlle being an ass, isn't it?

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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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The one thing you should know about Minnesota above all others is the Mayo Clinic.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Sure, I'm not about to take up arms against Cameron nor would I advocate anyone else doing so ... but you've criticised Washington and the Founding Fathers of your own country for rebelling against George III ... which is fine by me as I often tease right-wing Americans about that ... but by the same token the Jacobites would have considered themselves the legitimate monarchy here rather than the Hanoverians ...

How far back do you want to go?

Was William the Conqueror any more or less legitimate a ruler than the Harold he deposed?.

William was clearly more legitimate a ruler because he won.

Another example. The British settlement here resulted in the dispossession of the entire ancient peoples of this land. Very few were directly killed in the process, but many continue to die. Governments seem unable properly to address the issue, probably because it's so hard.

Then take the example of countries such as Australia, Canada and NZ - first British colonies, then client states of Britain and since 1945 of the US.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Gamaliel
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Thanks for the tip-off about the Mayo Clinic.

Sounds good.

This probably isn't the time or place to relate the story from a travel book about Ireland in which the author relates how he overheard some US tourists in County Mayo saying, 'Say, is this where all the mayo (mayonnaise) comes from?'

[Razz]

I doubt they were from Minnesota.

Now, Minneapolis, to my shame I know nothing about the city apart from its name. I must look it up.

As to Northfield, well, the good citizens can genuinely take pride in seeing off the James Gang.

My brother once mentioned that he'd read an article about it in which a historian suggested that what they did was truly remarkable given that James and his gang were hardened killers, war veterans and pretty formidable. None of the citizens of Northfield had ever fired a shot in anger, yet they managed to beat off a pretty scary bunch of seasoned desperadoes ...

Any way, this is meant to be a thread about Bibliophile but I've found myself enjoying a tangential discussion with his more nuanced countrymen.

God bless America!

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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