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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: all the good in me is dead
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Caring for refugees is not a Marxist idea. The idea of international legal rights of refugees was encouraged and developed by Conservatives, particularly Tories after the shame of how countries treated those fleeing war and persecution in 1930s Europe.
It is also a biblical imperative Leviticus 19:34 about caring for the stranger/'alien'
[ 05. September 2015, 14:24: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Bibliophile posts: quote:
Much of the blame for these drownings can be placed directly at the door of sanctimonious narcissistic pseudo-compassionate liberals.
Aside from the odd wording (are non-pseudo-compassionate liberals exempt from this judgement? do pseudo-compassionate conservatives get a free pass?), I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.
Eventually, the more ambitious will become less satisfied with life in tents, and seek to support their families. This has been made more serious by the dilatory approach to resettlement which was, at least until this weak, the flavour-du-jour of many western governments. There's a lot of blame to go around here, and it's unfair to put it all on the pseudo-compassionate liberals-- I know some self-satisfied conservatives and a couple of xenophobic trotskyites I would include.
O. I quite forgot the role of human traffickers (which our US shipmates know under the term of coyotes, and in western Canada as snakeheads). I'd like to put a bit of blame on them as well- it's a trade sufficiently vile that they cannot simply claim that they were participating in free-enterprise market-driven opportunities.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
mr cheesy
Children are drowning because of policies supported by people like you
You are one of the worst arguers on the Ship for a while. Really. All the nuance of a Wiggles song.
Well is that a less nuanced statement than
quote:
I hope this marks the downfall of UKIP and all who share and promote the ideology of hate
And it is true that a massive pull factor is created when Merkel and the EU set up rules that say that anyone who arrives by any route, legal or illegal, effectively has leave to remain. That is giving full encouragement to the people traffickers.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
you are actually a fascist ... Go live in Hungary, they like your lies there.
This is what I mean by people who label everyone to the right of Tony Blair is labelled 'fascist'. Victor Orban and Fidesz get labelled 'fascist' simply because they are to the right of Tony Blair and David Cameron. Maybe people in central European countries like Poland and Hungary tend to vote for parties of the right because not so long ago they had the experience of what it was like to be under a dictatorship of the hard left.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.
Oh yes the push factor. And what created this push factor. Various neo-conservative western interventions in the middle east. And what is 'neo-conservatism'? Well it originated with anti-communist liberals of the 1960s and 1970s like Democratic Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson, in other words the centre left. It has been enthusiastically supported by center left leaders like Tony Blair and Barak Obama. It is not a movement of the right.
[ 05. September 2015, 15:09: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
And it is true that a massive pull factor is created when Merkel and the EU set up rules that say that anyone who arrives by any route, legal or illegal, effectively has leave to remain. That is giving full encouragement to the people traffickers.
No such thing as "illegal entry" for a refugee fleeing war and persecution in international law.
UN Convention on Status of Refugees 1951 Article 31.
So this idea of Cameron that he can determine who is or is not a "genuine" refugee on the basis that they might have bribed someone for travel is entirely bogus.
And of course it is also totally immoral. Someone is desperate enough to sell all they have on the most dangerous journey.. but somehow this invalidates their claim to protection.
That's total shite. Not surprising, coming from you, of course.
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arse
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.
Oh yes the push factor. And what created this push factor. Various neo-conservative western interventions in the middle east. And what is 'neo-conservatism'? Well it originated with anti-communist liberals of the 1960s and 1970s like Democratic Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson, in other words the centre left. It has been enthusiastically supported by center left leaders like Tony Blair and Barak Obama. It is not a movement of the right.
Obama and Blair can only possibly be centre-leftists in your opinion and of, I suppose, Fox News. Maybe some columnists of the Telegraph too. Scoop Jackson was, like everyone in US Congress and all but very few in our Parliament, opposed to Soviet suzerainty over Eastern Europe rule and expansion elsewhere, although not so critical of American and British influence overseas.
To be honest, whether a policy or person is labelled left, right or centre is of little consequence as these terms are relative to ones own position.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
This is what I mean by people who label everyone to the right of Tony Blair is labelled 'fascist'. Victor Orban and Fidesz get labelled 'fascist' simply because they are to the right of Tony Blair and David Cameron. Maybe people in central European countries like Poland and Hungary tend to vote for parties of the right because not so long ago they had the experience of what it was like to be under a dictatorship of the hard left.
Nope, it'll be because he says things like this:
quote:
"I think we have a right to decide that we do not want a large number of Muslim people in our country. We do not like the consequences
and this
quote:
"The majority are not Christians but Muslims. That is an important question because Europe and European culture have Christian roots.
"Or is it not already, and in itself, alarming that Europe's Christian culture is barely able to uphold Europe's own Christian values?"
That's the kind of childish twaddle we'd expect from a pathetic small-brained anonymous idiot on a bulletin board, not the leader of an EU nation with a dramatic history of oppression of the weak.
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arse
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
You sound like one of those people who thinks that anyone to the right of Tony Blair is a fascist.
On the contrary, Cameron is largely a liberal too, hence the legalisation of equal marriage. Even people like David Davis are liberals. The out and out fascists are people like IDS and Michael Howard.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
You sound like one of those people who thinks that anyone to the right of Tony Blair is a fascist.
On the contrary, Cameron is largely a liberal too, hence the legalisation of equal marriage. Even people like David Davis are liberals. The out and out fascists are people like IDS and Michael Howard.
Well 'heir to Blair' call me Dave isn't really that far to the right of Blair.
The Conservative Party is both the mainstream centre right party of the UK and also the most popular party in the UK. Michael Howard and IDS may be on the right wing of the Conservative Party but they're not that far on the right. They're still quite close to the mainstream of that party. If you're going to call anyone to the right of Call Me Dave 'fascist', if you're going to call anyone who criticises liberalism from the right 'fascist' then I can't take your use of the term seriously. I can't take mr cheesy's use of the term seriously either because he comes across as such a foaming at the mouth Dave Spart that I can't take anything he says seriously.
For the record I am not a fascist.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.
Oh yes the push factor. And what created this push factor. Various neo-conservative western interventions in the middle east. And what is 'neo-conservatism'? Well it originated with anti-communist liberals of the 1960s and 1970s like Democratic Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson, in other words the centre left. It has been enthusiastically supported by center left leaders like Tony Blair and Barak Obama. It is not a movement of the right.
Black is white, and up is down, so saith Bibliophile. Remind me never to ride in a car with you, I don't trust your sense of direction, nor your ability to read.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, if mr cheesy sounds so much like a foaming-at-the-mouth Dave Spart, then how do you think you sound, Bibliophile?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
You might not be a fascist but you're doing a pretty good impression of being a foaming-at-the-mouth UKIP-er.
Pot, meet kettle.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, if mr cheesy sounds so much like a foaming-at-the-mouth Dave Spart, then how do you think you sound, Bibliophile?
Do you think he cares? I'm coming round to the idea that he enjoys being provocative and unpopular. However, just because Jeremiah was unpopular, right and righteous does not mean that every other unpopular person is also right and righteous.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm thinking of getting a T-shirt with "sanctimonious narcissistic pseudo-compassionate liberal" on it.
There was a stream of people going into the drop off point in South London today, and I stuck out like a sore thumb - all of an age I'm not, late 20s early 30s. The living room of the small flat was crammed with bags, and it reminded me that the very few people who spend their time posting obnoxious stuff are indeed very few.
There was a piece by Giles Fraser today in the Guardian, citing the Bible's injunctions on the treatment of refugees (of whom the infant Jesus was one) and slating Archbishop Peter Erdo of Budapest, who prohibited churches from sheltering refugees, as well as Orban, for themselves threatening the Christian identity of Europe.
Loose Canon
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder if Bibliophile has ignored the distinction between push and pull in migratory movement. Given that there are a few million who have left Syria for (reasonable IMHO) fear of their lives, it strikes me that push is the predominant factor here.
Oh yes the push factor. And what created this push factor. Various neo-conservative western interventions in the middle east. And what is 'neo-conservatism'? Well it originated with anti-communist liberals of the 1960s and 1970s like Democratic Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson, in other words the centre left. It has been enthusiastically supported by center left leaders like Tony Blair and Barak Obama. It is not a movement of the right.
Bibliophile and I have perhaps different perspectives: I thought that Senator Jackson was right-wing, Tony Blair vaguely centrist, and Barack Obama a moderate right-winger.
In any case, western interventions in the middle east have a long history, involving all sorts of folk such as Lord Curzon, Sir Winston Churchill, Lords Attlee and Avon, and Presidents Nixon and Clinton; which would suggest to me that ideology doesn't have a lot to do with it. Oil?? is that a word??
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
: You might not be a fascist but you're doing a pretty good impression of being a foaming-at-the-mouth UKIP-er.
LOL, fair play. I can get a bit ranty on certain subjects (e.g. communism), I'll try to keep any mouth foaming to a minimum.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, if mr cheesy sounds so much like a foaming-at-the-mouth Dave Spart, then how do you think you sound, Bibliophile?
Do you think he cares? I'm coming round to the idea that he enjoys being provocative and unpopular.
I enjoy having my ideas challenged. Spending time posting on a conservative forum can be more boring when the other people there broadly agree with you. Posting on a (mostly) liberal forum like this is more interesting for me as there is more challenge.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
mr cheesy
Children are drowning because of policies supported by people like you
You are one of the worst arguers on the Ship for a while. Really. All the nuance of a Wiggles song.
Well is that a less nuanced statement than
quote:
I hope this marks the downfall of UKIP and all who share and promote the ideology of hate
Yes.
quote:
And it is true that a massive pull factor is created when Merkel and the EU set up rules that say that anyone who arrives by any route, legal or illegal, effectively has leave to remain. That is giving full encouragement to the people traffickers.
No, not Merkel and the EU. Merkel is not the same as the EU. What Merkel has done is quite different from EU rules, and I've said in Purgatory I don't agree with what Germany is doing.
[ 05. September 2015, 23:45: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
: You might not be a fascist but you're doing a pretty good impression of being a foaming-at-the-mouth UKIP-er.
LOL, fair play. I can get a bit ranty on certain subjects (e.g. communism), I'll try to keep any mouth foaming to a minimum.
E.g. is an understatement. You find communism everywhere you look, and you've already been hauled up on the fact that you talk about it incessantly.
There aren't Reds under the bed, and there aren't Red on the Ship. What you're foaming at the mouth about is an ideology that's lost a great deal of its power since 1989, which leaves me wondering why on earth you feel the need to keep banging on about it. This is the 21st century, not the 20th.
[ 05. September 2015, 23:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Fascism needs a great enemy upon which to practice its hatred. For much of the 20th century it was Jews and/or Communists. With the collapse of the USSR the latter became irrelevant, and the former became unpopular when the Nazis caused even most fascists to say "hang on, I think that's going a bit far". Most fascists have moved on to attacking Muslims these days (with a dishonourable mention to those like IDS who focus more on attacking the poor and disabled), but clearly dear Bibbly has a little nostalgia for when Communists were the target of choice.
[ 06. September 2015, 06:09: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, if mr cheesy sounds so much like a foaming-at-the-mouth Dave Spart, then how do you think you sound, Bibliophile?
Do you think he cares? I'm coming round to the idea that he enjoys being provocative and unpopular.
I enjoy having my ideas challenged. Spending time posting on a conservative forum can be more boring when the other people there broadly agree with you. Posting on a (mostly) liberal forum like this is more interesting for me as there is more challenge.
You missed out the bit about "Jeremiahs".
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
: You might not be a fascist but you're doing a pretty good impression of being a foaming-at-the-mouth UKIP-er.
LOL, fair play. I can get a bit ranty on certain subjects (e.g. communism), I'll try to keep any mouth foaming to a minimum.
E.g. is an understatement. You find communism everywhere you look, and you've already been hauled up on the fact that you talk about it incessantly.
There aren't Reds under the bed, and there aren't Red on the Ship. What you're foaming at the mouth about is an ideology that's lost a great deal of its power since 1989, which leaves me wondering why on earth you feel the need to keep banging on about it. This is the 21st century, not the 20th.
Unfortunately communism still has plenty of people who defend it and make excuses for it and I don't like that. I accept that just going on about one subject can be a bit tedious and I am bearing that in mind
I would point out though that fascism is an ideology that lost a great deal of power all the way back in 1945, 70 years ago. And yet you still get people like Arethosemyfeet banging on about it and making wild accusations about various people, including government ministers, he suspects of being fascists.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
IDS has been knowingly causing the deaths of disabled people with a disturbing degree of glee, and has been creating a corporatist state tying the government to profit-making corporations that Mussolini would be proud of.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
IDS has been knowingly causing the deaths of disabled people with a disturbing degree of glee, and has been creating a corporatist state tying the government to profit-making corporations that Mussolini would be proud of.
See what I mean. Foaming at the mouth about fascists under the bed.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
fascists under the bed.
No, these people are in government. Some of us dream of the day that they're only under our beds.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
IDS has been knowingly causing the deaths of disabled people with a disturbing degree of glee, and has been creating a corporatist state tying the government to profit-making corporations that Mussolini would be proud of.
See what I mean. Foaming at the mouth about fascists under the bed.
Well, if we have a government that places the welfare of corporations above that of people, it does match one of the facets of Fascism. Only one of them I agree, but it does reduce the power of the democratic vote if the will of the people is ignored. A bit like soviet communism in that regard.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I don't think they think they are ignoring the will of the people. It's just that they are listening to people we don't like.
On a story on the Daily Mail yesterday*, which had come out in favour of doing something helpful to refugees, there were thousands of people downticking positive feedback comments and upticking the few negative ones.
It's quite scarey to think we are sharing a country with so many trolls. The woman collecting for Calaid in south London said she had only had a few, which is good.
With regards to IDS, I've posted a quote from Vince Cable in the DWP thread, which casts some light on the situation there.
*I arrived there by surprise from a link somewhere.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
mr cheesy
Children are drowning because of policies supported by people like you
You are one of the worst arguers on the Ship for a while. Really. All the nuance of a Wiggles song.
Well is that a less nuanced statement than
quote:
I hope this marks the downfall of UKIP and all who share and promote the ideology of hate
Yes.
I can see that you might agree with that statement but I'm not sure how you could claim that that statement contains any nuance at all.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If the UN does anything, the USA should pay the bill for it because it destabilized Iraq in the first place.
Not everyone in the USA should have to pay the bill for this mess. I think all the saber rattling Republican and some Democrat senators should have to dig deep to pay for the destabilization. I certainly never gave my o.k. to the invasion of Iraq and I'm sure many millions of Americans didn't, either. Let George W. Bush have to sell his ranches and his holdings in Halliburton, etc to pay the bill. Force Dick Cheney to cough up his billions, the bastard. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The5thMary: of course, damn to pay those responsible were it possible.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I can see that you might agree with that statement but I'm not sure how you could claim that that statement contains any nuance at all.
Maddening, isn't it.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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