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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Cameron on Corbyn
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
The Tories could also be geniuely worried.
I'm just back from the Conservative Party Conference. The Tories aren't worried about Corbyn. Not at all.
You gotta love the humility of the Tories. They stumble to victory on the basis of lies and fear with a small section of the vote but what makes them really dangerous is that they seem to believe their own propaganda. Corbyn might well not lead Labour to victory but the Conservative party is going to destroy itself.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
How is the Conservative Party going to destroy itself?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
How is the Conservative Party going to destroy itself?
Because they believe their own propaganda
Our economy is in a very perilous state due to Osborne's idiocy. This is gonna bite them in the next couple of years.
Europe.
They actually believe they're in the centre ground, whilst hammering the poor and vulnerable. Eventually, people will notice.
Europe.
Because they have convinced themselves that they've won the argument. They haven't they've lied and cheated and eventually they will be found out.
The complacency of the party in notable, no astounding actually. Meanwhile Cameron knows that he has to demonize Corbyn from day one as someone who might call him out is actually really dangerous. But if he can make sure that no one listens then he can, once again avoid the argument.
The problem is this nasty thing called truth. It's significantly at odds with nearly all of Cameron's speech.
Oh and Europe.
AFZ
[ 08. October 2015, 18:35: Message edited by: alienfromzog ]
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
One of the interesting things I found from the Conference was that the mood wasn't one of self-congratulation at all. Yes, we'd won but already the thinking seemed to have moved on to how the party can consolidate that victory. In many ways it didn't feel like a conference taking place a few months after a general election and nearly five years before the next one.
I agree that the old bugbear of the EU could be problematic.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
I think this piece by Seamus Milne is spot on.
If it's any consolation, there's a decent chance that the Labour party will implode too. If that happens then the Tories can win by default. But don't bet on it.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think the alien does have a point - for many years, there has been nobody who has been prepared to say "Cameron, you are lying". Whereas Corbyn seems like he will do that (not in so many words, of course, but in principle).
Milliband planed Camerons game - they both lied, nobody called them out on in, and they homes the story they presented would be acceptable to the electorate. Corbyn won't play that game, and that is an important difference.
I have seen in the last month or so more social media exposing the basic Tory lies. I know my social media profile is very left wing, and has always had some of that, but it has got more. Some people believe in truth, so the fact that Tories lie every time they open their mouth will make a difference.
And Cameron sticking his knob in a pig* has not helped his claim to be a decent, respectable person.
*Allegedly. But as he said he is too busy running the country to take legal action. That is close enough to an admission for me. If it was rubbish, he would have had it protested.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
8
I have seen in the last month or so more social media exposing the basic Tory lies. I know my social media profile is very left wing, and has always had some of that, but it has got more. Some people believe in truth, so the fact that Tories lie every time they open their mouth will make a difference.
See, this is what worries me about the 21st century, people are just talking past each other. Your social media is telling you it's all going to be fine. Mine, as an extreme left wing Tory, has been for the last couple of days a stream of "we can't afford to lose this opportunity" and, in the past 24 hours post Cameron's speech, a stream of Labour party voters either announcing their defection to the Tories or, alternatively, lamenting that Cameron has just made a speech they don't disagree with any of and why are they being condemned to years in the wilderness by Corbyn....
To be quite honest, I think that anyone who takes remotely seriously what their social media is telling them (and twitter is the worst here because it's even more self-reinforcing than most given you choose who to follow) needs their head examining. All it does is pump a torrent of wish-fulfilment bilge into the user's brain to an extent never seen before outside the propaganda campaigns of highly organised dictatorships. Problem is, now everyone gets to have their own truth, complete with "evidence."
I don't know about you, but I operate a strict doubling-up on who I follow. If I follow the Tories, I want to follow Labour official; if the LibDems then also UKIP, the Times AND the Guardian, John Rentoul and Dan Hannan.
I also rarely read the same newspaper 2 days running, and tend to buy the ones I know I'll disagree with because that's a better way to calibrate what I think is happening.
Somewhere in the triangulation of what they're all saying (and who they're retweeting) the truth lies.
But what I won't do is reach an opinion based on what the sort of people I like and agree with are saying, because echo chambers hurtle off into self-referential cul-de-sacs far too quickly.
I'm sure you probably do likewise, I mean, it's not rocket science.
But I'm afraid I don't buy Tory triumphalism any more than I currently buy Corbyn's Labour winning a General Election. There's a lot of sound and fury from the social media engaged on both sides, and the great mass of the public getting on with their lives.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Meanwhile the talk from our city's buses today, always interesting as they trundle round, in and out of all the housing estates, was as follows:
"Dunno about this new one , but at least i can understand him"
' I'm right glad that lot have gone. They come here, mess up the centre and for what? Nothing. It's all nonsense'
"Load of posh gits"
' I'm going back to voting Labour now'
The thing is, lots of folk just can't stand rude people and DC comes over as rude.
[ 08. October 2015, 21:21: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
John Harris in this morning's Guardian saying exactly what I think and was trying to say last night.
This is why he is a journalist and I am not.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's people like Harris who fill me with gloom about the Labour party. I am doubtful that Corbyn can change this, as it seems so deep-rooted.
Harris talks of the Tories 'pretty spectacular demonstration of power' so uncritically, I think I'm listening to the Telegraph. But then the Guardian has increasingly set itself against Corbyn, although give Polly Toynbee her due, she is criticizing the Tories.
Harris finishes with the question, 'what now?'. I would have thought that the answer was obvious: be an opposition, and outline a critique of neo-liberalism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
It ought to be a useful warning to the Labour party to keep things civilised and reasonable, which despite the soundbites is what Jeremy Corbyn is. You might not like what he says but he's mostly decent and polite. I'll grant that he gets hot when TV interviewers interrupt and talk over him, but they deserve a cold, severe put-down when they try that with anyone. I think it was Francis Pym who did that many years ago - poor interviewer was totally thrown!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
How is the Conservative Party going to destroy itself?
Because they believe their own propaganda
Our economy is in a very perilous state due to Osborne's idiocy. This is gonna bite them in the next couple of years.
On reflection, I suppose I do have to allow for the other possibilities...
1) They're right
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Sorry just put this in for completeness... (Where's the Killing Me emoticon when you need it: here's a short list
Left-wing firebrand Martin Wolf describes current economic policy as 'insane'
By all important measures, our economy is fundamentally weaker than in 2010
There was never any danger of the UK becoming like Greece. That was a big fat lie.
At at time of record-low borrowing costs for the government they have squandered it by killing growth and having to borrow vastly more for day to day spending when investment was needed and cheap.
The Health & Social Care Act has made the NHS deeply vulnerable at a time when it faces massive demographic and other demand challenges. It's gonna be a bad winter and the government are worried.
Councils have born a huge part of the burden of cuts... have you noticed the state of repair or our roads? And silently behind closed doors, the most vulnerable have had their vital care taken away. BTW, this is the government who cut benefits for disabled children (2011, look it up!).
The 'spare-room subsidy' or 'bedroom tax' whichever term you prefer is a really stupid policy - even if you agree with the principal it was so badly done its actually likely to cost money and leaves so many of the poorest struggling to pay the rent
Housing policy. Where to begin?
Foreign policy. Oh well, yeah, um, don't get me started...
I'll stop now.
or yeah 2) They are deeply cynical and know exactly what they're doing.
To be fair, that's less dangerous than a government who believes its own propaganda but it is also deeply iniquitous.
As, I said, I tend to the conclusion that they believe their own propaganda. Which is fine but the truth has a nasty habit of coming back to bite you. At the very least, our economy will slow next year; I suspect a recession will be narrowly avoided, personally. But what I'm looking forward to, is the creative excuses Mr Osborne will come up with.
But remember [B} Jeremy Corbyn is a threat to our economic security [/b]
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
A lot of it is just posturing. Any party in government has to say "We are great and the opposition is rubbish" and the opposition are equally obliged to say "The government is rubbish and we could do it better." They have to, it's in their job description.
Their supporters tend to be tinged with the same tendency. If you take some of the less overtly identifiable party utterances out of context, rephrase them slightly and offer them to people who would otherwise disagree on principle with anything coming out of Labour/Green/Conservative camps, people do sometimes find themselves agreeing with some of the anonymized utterances which normally, if an attribution had been provided, they wouldn't have done on principle. Spin and the presentation of ideas count for quite a lot more than is generally given credit for.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
And anyone on the left who points out the significance of spin and propaganda gets sneered at and accused of thinking the public are stupid.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
And anyone on the left who points out the significance of spin and propaganda gets sneered at and accused of thinking the public are stupid.
Well, the view on here amongst left-leaning folk seems to be that if a left-wing party fails it's either because the leader or policy platform isn't left-wing enough or because the public has been brainwashed by the media, as if they're empty vessels waiting to be told what to think by that morning's tabloids. That does rather create the impression that many on the left think the public are stupid.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Well, clearly large numbers of members of the public are stupid. 35% of them voted Tory last time round. QED.
[and, no I wouldn't make that argument outside Hell.]
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Which is a fine view to take, if you like. I suppose the problem is that many in the Labour movement think the same way and some of that 35% used to vote Labour. By being branded 'stupid' they're more likely to carry on voting the way they currently are.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Damn. I got out for the afternoon and early evening, drink a load of beer and too much sake, and I still can't post something in Hell that gets an irate response ...
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
That does rather create the impression that many on the left think the public are stupid.
I take your point, but don't think it's particularly limited to those on the left. The utter contempt for truth and accuracy displayed by politicians and the media across the spectrum would tend to indicate that a large majority (or maybe just the loudest voices) either think we're too thick to work it out, or they're too arrogant to care.
And, in a lot of ways, we are stupid. On a lot of hot button issues people believe what resonates with them emotionally, apply enough confirmation bias to bend the truth backwards up its own but, and resolutely shout "la la la la" in the face of actual research, evidence or facts (even if you allow some wiggle room on the lies, damned lies and statistics basis).
When the power game is just that, a game of keeping power, it's in nobody's interests to try to raise the bar or up the level of discourse. Far better to manipulate the ignorant bastards (self included) on their knee-jerk reactions. And thus we get the race to the bottom politics we deserve ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Damn. I got out for the afternoon and early evening, drink a load of beer and too much sake, and I still can't post something in Hell that gets an irate response ...
Hee hee.
The thing is though it's a lot more subtle than that. The vast majority of this country have very little interest in politics and minimal engagement. Which is fine, why should anyone be as geeky as me? They vote on vague impression and instinct and hence the effectiveness of propaganda.
I'm very happy to lay out the evidence but we have a situation where the Tories won on a record of economic competence having completely mismanaged the economy.
Lots of wise people keep telling Labour that they lost and therefore need to change their policies. The problem is the public are wrong: austerity is a really bad idea. So the question is what do you do when the electorate are wrong? Or are you (Anclican't mostly) saying that's not possible - that the public are always right?
I think the answer is that you have to fight harder. You have to lay out your argument better. You have to win the argument.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
And anyone on the left who points out the significance of spin and propaganda gets sneered at and accused of thinking the public are stupid.
Well, the view on here amongst left-leaning folk seems to be that if a left-wing party fails it's either because the leader or policy platform isn't left-wing enough or because the public has been brainwashed by the media, as if they're empty vessels waiting to be told what to think by that morning's tabloids. That does rather create the impression that many on the left think the public are stupid.
I don't think I've seen either view expressed. Surely is obvious that the drip-feed of negative stories about immigration, Europe, benefit recipients, teachers etc. must have some impact on public opinion. Take the recent choice by the Mail to mention the London bombings in the context of the Great British Bake Off winner, simply because the winner happens to come from the same city as some of the bombers. It's almost as if there's an attempt to conflate "brown person from Leeds" with "terrorist" in people's minds.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Well, clearly large numbers of members of the public are stupid. 35% of them voted Tory last time round. QED.
"If you're not a socialist before you're twenty-five, you have no heart; if you're still a socialist after twenty-five, you have no brain."
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Damn. I got out for the afternoon and early evening, drink a load of beer and too much sake, and I still can't post something in Hell that gets an irate response ...
Hope the above helps. Have a nice day.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
And anyone on the left who points out the significance of spin and propaganda gets sneered at and accused of thinking the public are stupid.
Well, the view on here amongst left-leaning folk seems to be that if a left-wing party fails it's either because the leader or policy platform isn't left-wing enough or because the public has been brainwashed by the media, as if they're empty vessels waiting to be told what to think by that morning's tabloids. That does rather create the impression that many on the left think the public are stupid.
Horseshit. There are plenty on "the left" who are vain, stupid and/or unable to appreciate that others may not share their views. That argument cuts both ways however and is why we have political parties, to cater for these differences.
OTOH the papers definitely matter. Scare stories work well, especially if they are half-truths consistent with speeches by politicians. Why after all have so many newspaper owners become "Press barons"?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
OTOH the papers definitely matter. Scare stories work well, especially if they are half-truths consistent with speeches by politicians. Why after all have so many newspaper owners become "Press barons"?
This piece of research from Ipsos MORI and Kings College London in 2013 illustrate this point brilliantly.
quote:
From their research:
3. Job-seekers allowance: 29% of people think we spend more on JSA than pensions, when in fact we spend 15 times more on pensions (£4.9bn vs £74.2bn).
4. Benefit fraud: people estimate that 34 times more benefit money is claimed fraudulently than official estimates: the public think that £24 out of every £100 spent on benefits is claimed fraudulently, compared with official estimates of £0.70 per £100.
7. Immigration and ethnicity: the public think that 31% of the population are immigrants, when the official figures are 13%. Even estimates that attempt to account for illegal immigration suggest a figure closer to 15%.
I come back to my earlier point. The public are wrong. Consistently. As that wrongness is an electoral advantage to the Tories it is perhaps no surprise that they perpetuate such myths with the help of the supportive segments of the media.
This government's success if not built on competence, it's built on propaganda.
The reason why the Tories should be scared of Corbyn is because more than anyone preceding him, he is prepared to call them on this.
The reason why the Tories aren't worried about Corbyn is because they think their spin machine / cheer-leading biased media will win the argument.
Time will tell. FWIW (i.e. nothing), my view is that things that appear stable right now, aren't and the truth will come back to bite. Labour will win if they manage two things: 1, they have the argument already in front of the public when things unravel and 2, they don't rip-themselves apart in the meantime.
Corbyn is attempting 1. but is really is a huge uphill battle. There are some interesting aspects to it like the Labour economic advisor panel and Corbyn's quiet determination to remain civil and reasonable at all times. This might work. It depends on circumstances. In terms of 2, I'd call it even odds at the moment.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
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