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Source: (consider it) Thread: Smartarse but More Besides
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe it's just me, but watching orfeo and Mousethief wag their etymological dicks at each other is a lot more entertaining than reading anything Ad Orientum has to say.

Now, could you get this from a robot?

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Participating in etymological dick-waving is a lot more entertaining.

...although, is it really etymological? [Devil]

Or in your case, perhaps, entymological? Not that I want any details, thanks, just to insult. [Two face]

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
by orfeo;
quote:
To be "radical" you have to be unusual, not common.

If we're being thoroughly etymological, 'radical' means one of two things, which are nothing to do with unusualness or commonness.
Three. Your radical group could be a bunch of square roots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I wonder if AO has considered converting to some proper authentic Finnish religion rather than that Middle Eastern nonsense?

He really should get into the Kalevala. Not least because it helps with Sibelius.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:

In the urban context where I live, however, this is not necessarily the case. It's not that the Muslims here are cocooned, but that the contact they may have with the kind of society you mention is not great, or not socially significant. Indeed, some scholars say that Muslims in some English communities have become less secular over time, as their numbers have increased along with social segregation, They haven't had to interact with the indigenous culture to the same extent, and the rate of marrying out has dropped, etc. They may also be from stricter and less educated cultural communities in their homelands.


Good. Who are these scholars, and where can I find their work?
Let me reiterate that neither I nor the commentators below are saying Muslims are inevitably radical fanatics or fundamentalists (my Muslim neighbour and her very successful children certainly aren't). That having been said, let me add to the list issues that might lead to or be sign of more intense Muslim identification rather than secularisation:

- global politics as a recruitment tool for fundamentalist ideas
- racism and/or Islamophobia in the West
- the increasing demand for and availability of separate Muslim schools
- poverty
- white flight
- the traditional British policy of celebrating or tolerating multiculturalism rather than emphasising assimilation/integration
- reinforcement of particular cultural practices when the Muslims in question mostly come from the same South Asian background
- perhaps societal confusion about what it means to be British


Here are some complete texts on the net which may be of interest.

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf (this offers a very good overview of the British situation and talks about the diversity of British Muslims)

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33166.pdf (see section on the UK, though the rest may be interesting)


There are many paragraphs in texts on Google Books that highlight these and related issues. E.g.:

'Cultural Diversity and the Schools: Education for cultural diversity' by James Lynch, et al, pp 181, 182

'The Radicalization of Diasporas and Terrorism' by Bruce Hoffman, et al, pp. 10,11

'Interculturalism: The New Era of Cohesion and Diversity' by Ted Cantle, pp. 121, 122

'Counter-Terrorism Policing: Community, Cohesion and Security' by Sharon Pickering, et al, pp. 39

'Muslim Citizens in the West: Spaces and Agents of Inclusion and Exclusion' edited by Miss Nina Markovic, pp. 36,37

'The Blackwell Companion to the Sociology of Families' edited by Jacqueline Scott, pp. 280, 281

'Consanguinity in Context'by Alan H. Bittles, pp. 59.

There are also serious newspaper articles on these issues.

Much more could be said, of course. I'm willing to post or look for more sources, but for now the above should provide enough food for comment if you're so inclined.

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
We could save a load lots of money if we left as this article (in Finnish) suggests.

Let me get this right. You have a position that you wish to support. And, the best you could manage is an article that no one else here can read? Really? You thought that was a good idea? Really?

Just when I was thinking you couldn't demonstrate a lower level of intelligence you do just that. I read somewhere on the internet that Finns are the closest relations to cro-magnon. But, cro-magnons managed to make functional tools, so clearly were more intelligent than the one example of Finnish intelligence we've been honoured to experience.

And how exactly would I get the same article in English?
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The principle of not nicking other people's countries is in everybody's interest.

Tell this to the USA and UK re Iraq.
Oh, I think it's been pretty well demonstrated that what we did there (not quite nicking as in the grand colonial days, BTW) was not in our interest.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And how exactly would I get the same article in English?

You could get another article, one in English that makes the same point. You could provide a self-translation of a portion of this one. Or you could pursue some other line of argument. But posting an article that nobody but yourself can read doesn't do anything but make you look an ass.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The problem, as I see it, is one of increasing polarisation where one ignores or overlooks problems at home - or with close neighbours - in your case, Russia - in order to blame 'others' and wallow in some kind of paranoid self-pity.

But Russia is Orfodoks, don't you know. So invading Crimea is just tickety-boo, and criticizing them for doing so is Russophobia. And if Russia wants to be a Mayja Playa by doing things like annexing bits of other countries, who is the US or UK or UN to squeak about it?

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I believe it's possible to be against Zionism and to criticise Israel without stepping over the line into anti-Semitism but I get the impression in your case that you believe there to be some kind of vast Jewish-Zionist conspiracy afoot, aided by the Freemasons - and for all I know, lizard-men from Planet Zogg ...

Jewish-Zionist-Islamist. Maybe the EU is in there somewhere too, the blackguards.

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Zionist sympathisers are alright. It's those muslim-loving, Hamas supporting anti-Zionists that are the problem. Shipping all the Jews off to Israel is good, it stops them polluting our pure Christian culture.

Few Orthodox Christians are going to say good things about Zionism, given what our co-religionists have suffered at the hands of Israel. The fact that they are now suffering under radical Muslims doesn't undo that.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Help me out here - more than 70% of Finns are in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, with around 1% in the Finnish Orthodox Church.

Last time I looked, the Lutheran Church was a protestant Evangelical church - and Ad Orientem has stated that western Protestant Christians are the same as liberal secularists - which AO believes are bad.

But then AO says he would now vote for a Christian socialist party.

Isn't it likely that a Finnish Christian socialist party would be largely made up of Lutheran Christians, and wouldn't he therefore be voting for western secularists?

Hush! There you go being logical and working out the conclusions of contradictory premises. Ad Racialpuritum doesn't do that logic thing.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The principle of not nicking other people's countries is in everybody's interest.

Tell this to the USA and UK re Iraq.
And this is relevant to this conversation HOW? Look, I was a vocal opponent to Dubya's war throughout it, but this is really off-topic.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
We could save a load lots of money if we left as this article (in Finnish) suggests.

Let me get this right. You have a position that you wish to support. And, the best you could manage is an article that no one else here can read? Really? You thought that was a good idea? Really?

Just when I was thinking you couldn't demonstrate a lower level of intelligence you do just that. I read somewhere on the internet that Finns are the closest relations to cro-magnon. But, cro-magnons managed to make functional tools, so clearly were more intelligent than the one example of Finnish intelligence we've been honoured to experience.

And how exactly would I get the same article in English?
Two options immediately spring to mind.

One, the arguments you seem to be expounding about the problems of the EU are not unique to Finland. Find one of the innumerable anti-EU blogs, websites, newspapers in the UK which will be filled with more bunkum about the evils of Brussels than you can possibly need.

Two, actually tell us what the problems are. Paraphrase parts of Finnish articles if you like (think of it as an equivalent to "provide a translation" if you actually post something not in English).

But, mainly tell us what you think and why. We don't need links to places where other people say what they think, whether they're in English or not. This a discussion board where we respond to what other members post, not Facebook hitting "like" on random pictures of cats.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Zionist sympathisers are alright. It's those muslim-loving, Hamas supporting anti-Zionists that are the problem. Shipping all the Jews off to Israel is good, it stops them polluting our pure Christian culture.

Few Orthodox Christians are going to say good things about Zionism, given what our co-religionists have suffered at the hands of Israel. The fact that they are now suffering under radical Muslims doesn't undo that.

Sorry, I should have asked to borrow the irony meter.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sorry, I should have asked to borrow the irony meter.

I knew you were being ironic, but I couldn't tell exactly which side of the "Orthodox love Israel" line you were coming down on. I misread. Sorry about that.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And how exactly would I get the same article in English?

If you can't, tough. That's your problem.

I'm rather amused by the possibility that your media intake is SO nationalist and insular there are no English-language versions available.

[ 24. September 2015, 14:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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SvitlanaV2, your comments and links are way too sensible for Hell - and for Ad Orienteeringgonewrong.

I doubt he'll look them up or consider them.

He has neither the intelligence, the emotional capacity nor the inclination.

Meanwhile, I'm grateful to mr cheesy for the stats on religious observance in Finland. I knew the Finnish Orthodox Church was fairly small but not that tiny in comparison with those nefarious, nasty liberal Lutherans ...

To what extent is the Finnish Lutheran Church 'evangelical' in the UK or US sense of the term?

In Germany and other mainland European countries 'evangelical' is simply a name for Protestant - it doesn't mean that they hold to Bebbington's Quadrilaterals.

The Lutheran Church in Sweden contains hardly any evangelicals at all from what I can gather - at least not in the way that we would understand the term here.

The Scandinavian Protestant churches are probably among the most liberal on the planet and make the liberal wing of the US Episcopalian Church look positively conservative ...

So perhaps that might explain Ad Orkwardox's contention that all Protestants are liberal secularists in disguise ...

If he grew up in a highly conservative RC background in London's East End and then converted to an even more conservative form of Orthodoxy then the chances are he won't have come across that many Protestants - other than on these boards.

Or the 70% of his neighbours who, nominally at least, are adherents of the Finnish Lutheran Church.

I'm told that Finland is one of the most secularised countries in Europe and it's on the list of countries/regions that might be among the first where Christianity might actually 'die-out' first. Wales is another, incidentally - having gone from being one of the most religious parts of the UK to one of the most secular within a few generations.

Ireland's going through that same process very rapidly as we speak. It'll be even less Roman Catholic by the time I've finished typing this sentence.

So, perhaps there are grounds for Ad Orientem's paranoia.

'They have killed the prophets and I am the only one left ...'

Or perhaps that's got nothing to do with it. It might just be that he's a twat.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Gamaliel, come over here and gnaw my leg off.

It'll save time, and I'm willing to sacrifice myself for the rest of the herd.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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I'm on my way ...

(munch, munch ...)

Meanwhile, I take Mousethief's point, the State of Israel hasn't exactly treated Palestinian Christians any better than Palestinian Muslims ...

But it's not as if they've been given a good object lesson in Christian toleration and treatment of Jewish people is it?

It would be unfair to single out those fine, upstanding Orthodox Christians of Holy Russia who burned synagogues and massacred Jewish men, women and children ... because Western Christianity has also been guilty of anti-Semitic enormities. It's far too easy to say, 'Well, the Nazis weren't proper Christians ...' because they were drawing on a back-catalogue of anti-Semitism dating way, way back ...

I wonder if Ad Orientem's celebration of Europe's Christian heritage would include excusing (or celebrating) the pogroms, treating the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' not as a forgery but as fact and generally condoning reprehensible behaviour on the part of the Crusaders (other than when they sacked Constantinople) and anyone else whose example we might cringe at?

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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I think it is probably true that the Scandinavian Lutheran churches are all very liberal (from what I read, the Finnish church recently had a major split due to a DH topic).

But I think this just goes to show how crap the definitions of Evangelicalism actually are - otherwise we are left with the idea that a church which calls itself the
quote:
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
actually isn't.

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arse

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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

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I thought Ad Absurdam was originally CofE, then swam the Tiber, then the Volga (or whatever it is) - a fairly common trajectory for those of a conservative bent with a knack of discovering that in any given parade they are the only one marching in step.
How long will it be before he bcomes an Old Believer, then an Old Old Believer (do they exist? They will if he goes on like this) and so on and so on until he has convinced himself that he is the only actual Christian remaining on earth. Then he will sit out the rest of his days in splendid isolation denouncing the backsliding ways of the rest of us.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Also on the repeated claims of potential benefits from leaving the EU: the fact is that countries in Europe outside of the EU still keep most of the EU rules because of the benefits. Like Norway.

Cutting all of the ties with the EU would mean a sudden loss of the major market.

Also Finland signed the UN Refugee Convention 1951 (and other international conventions), so being outside of the EU would make bugger all difference to their responsibilities to look after refugees.

As in the UK, nationalistic politicians are saying a lot of bollocks about costs and potential benefits of being independent from the EU - but the reality is that, at least in terms of refugees, it would make no difference. You still wouldn't be able to refuse refugees because they were Muslims.

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arse

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

How long will it be before he bcomes an Old Believer, then an Old Old Believer (do they exist? They will if he goes on like this) and so on and so on until he has convinced himself that he is the only actual Christian remaining on earth. Then he will sit out the rest of his days in splendid isolation denouncing the backsliding ways of the rest of us.

Oh I don't know, I always thought the Fedoseevtsy and other OB sounded quite fun.

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arse

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:

In the urban context where I live, however, this is not necessarily the case. It's not that the Muslims here are cocooned, but that the contact they may have with the kind of society you mention is not great, or not socially significant. Indeed, some scholars say that Muslims in some English communities have become less secular over time, as their numbers have increased along with social segregation, They haven't had to interact with the indigenous culture to the same extent, and the rate of marrying out has dropped, etc. They may also be from stricter and less educated cultural communities in their homelands.


Good. Who are these scholars, and where can I find their work?
Let me reiterate that neither I nor the commentators below are saying Muslims are inevitably radical fanatics or fundamentalists (my Muslim neighbour and her very successful children certainly aren't). That having been said, let me add to the list issues that might lead to or be sign of more intense Muslim identification rather than secularisation:

- global politics as a recruitment tool for fundamentalist ideas
- racism and/or Islamophobia in the West
- the increasing demand for and availability of separate Muslim schools
- poverty
- white flight
- the traditional British policy of celebrating or tolerating multiculturalism rather than emphasising assimilation/integration
- reinforcement of particular cultural practices when the Muslims in question mostly come from the same South Asian background
<snip>

Much more could be said, of course. I'm willing to post or look for more sources, but for now the above should provide enough food for comment if you're so inclined.

Thank you.
The following is from the first of the texts you linked to, from the executive summary:
quote:
We argue that the Government has to change its policy approach towards Muslims. It should stop emphasising difference and engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity.
So you might perhaps acknowledge that the solution being offered in that text at least is to offer Muslims the benefits of citizenship in secular society? And if this is reflected in future policy (even granting that is a big "if"), it would mean the increasing secularisation of Muslims, rather than the reverse?
I will keep reading, that is just a first response. But I'm not sure that one supports your ideas as unproblematically as you might think.

[ 24. September 2015, 15:54: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]

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You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
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Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
You might perhaps acknowledge that the solution being offered in that text at least is to offer Muslims the benefits of citizenship in secular society? And if this is reflected in future policy (even granting that is a big "if"), it would mean the increasing secularisation of Muslims, rather than the reverse?
I will keep reading, that is just a first response. But I'm not sure that one supports your ideas as unproblematically as you might think.

I don't think I said anything about this topic being unproblematic! In fact it's quite complex. And, I did say that the texts I've chosen rightly attempt to be even-handed.

Certainly, there's a lot that the British government might do, if the political will is there (and also the money), although I'm not sure that secularisation, whether of Christians or Muslims, is entirely down to governmental agendas.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Putin annexed Crimea, if that action were consequencelss - what do you think the long term fall out is likely to be ? Has Finland not been invaded by Russia before ?

Crimea has nothing to do with us, but don't think the US and the EU are without blame. Yes, the Soviets invaded us in '39 but that is irrelevant to the situation today. The sanctions are significantly harming our economy and for what? American expansionism and Russophobia.
Back in February of this year, a bunch of Shipmates tried to show AO the dangers of this on a Hell thread that AO started. Didn't work. But makes for some...interesting...reading.

The pertinent part starts around here.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Back in February of this year, a bunch of Shipmates tried to show AO the dangers of this on a Hell thread that AO started. Didn't work. But makes for some...interesting...reading.

The pertinent part starts around here.

I'd forgotten that. Reading it again, plus this thread, makes me wonder if Ad Orientem is actually a wannabe Russian. Which is a damn weird thing for anyone to want to be, let alone a Finn. It's like a Scot wanting to be English.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's like a Scot wanting to be English.

The first thought popping in my head was "I think you find they're called Lowlanders. [Devil]
Seriously though, they do exist. The difference is they've no barriers from strolling down the road and becoming so.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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JonahMan
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# 12126

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's like a Scot wanting to be English.

The difference is they've no barriers from strolling down the road and becoming so.
Ah, but no true Scotsman would do that, so they would have been Sassenachs all along

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It's no trouble to behave

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sorry, I should have asked to borrow the irony meter.

I knew you were being ironic, but I couldn't tell exactly which side of the "Orthodox love Israel" line you were coming down on. I misread. Sorry about that.
On that particular point I wasn't really aiming to come down on any particular side. But, as my engagement in Palestine threads over the years would make clear, my views of Zionism are not particularly positive. Because the results of, at least the more extreme versions of, Zionism has been a massive injustice inflicted on the people of Palestine - Christian and muslim alike.

Mainly I was aiming for a simple "AO is an idiot" line.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

Mainly I was aiming for a simple "AO is an idiot" line.

We've six pages on this thread alone that makes this a fairly clear and unambiguous conclusion.

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Alan Cresswell

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I know. But, it's difficult to resist the temptation to point out the obvious when every thing he posts just produces another example to illustrate it.

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Penny S
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I read somewhere in the past few weeks that Putin already has a bit of Finland, an estate belonging to the Russian Presidency, on which some Finns trespassed to set up a gay bar, or something. Definitely considered offensive, anyway.
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Leaf
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Hm, Ad Orientem hasn't replied since last night. I wonder if he had other plans, such as throwing rocks at refugee children.
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Golden Key
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Wow, re the rock-throwing story! And then there's the comment section...
[Eek!]

Reading the article, they've gotten a HUGE influx of refugees this year. Recently, they've gotten 500 people a *day* at just one border crossing with Sweden.

That would cause a lot of tension. I do not in any way, shape, or form defend mistreating immigrants. But I can see why people might be hugely uncomfortable, and even panic.

ETA: Thx for the link, Leaf.

[ 25. September 2015, 20:56: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Kelly Alves

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People suck in general, people in groups suck exponentially. God. Fuck everyone. [Disappointed]

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Reading the article, they've gotten a HUGE influx of refugees this year. Recently, they've gotten 500 people a *day* at just one border crossing with Sweden.

They've got off lightly compared to other parts of Europe. Greece is getting about 5000 a day. I don't know whether that sort of info is percolating through into the US news.
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Alan Cresswell

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And, Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan (all countries much less able to take in refugees than Finland) have received far more refugees.

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Golden Key
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Yes. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be dismissive of what other countries are going through.

I've heard the news and the numbers. But I can only handle so much of that. At this point, I've got a note on a mental 3" x 5" index card. And it says something like, "war=bad; Syrian refugees leaving in droves; receiving countries overwhelmed; many people are trying to do the right thing for the refugees, if they can figure out what that is".

I think the Finnish 500/day (Iraqis, IIRC) at one border crossing was a number I could process. And I've never lived near a border, so that seems like a huge number of people.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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The current wave of refugees are from Syria, not Iraq.

That's Syria, the country we're (or our governments who supposedly act on our behalf) are dropping bombs on. Iraq was the country we were dropping bombs on a couple of years ago. There are also lots of refugees from Libya, where we were also dropping bombs recently.

Anyone else seeing a pattern?

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Golden Key
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Well, per the article to which Leaf linked, and which I was discussing:

quote:
So far this year more than 13,000 asylum seekers, most of them from Iraq, have come to Finland, compared to just 3,600 in the whole of last year.

In recent days, about 500 refugees per day have crossed the Finnish land border in Tornio, near the Arctic Circle, after a long journey through Sweden.

(Italics mine.)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
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--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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For background info:

"Demographics of Finland" (Wikpedia). Start with "Ethnic minorities and languages" section. Finland has more groups of minorities than I expected--but they're mostly *very* small groups.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Well, per the article to which Leaf linked, and which I was discussing:

quote:
So far this year more than 13,000 asylum seekers, most of them from Iraq, have come to Finland, compared to just 3,600 in the whole of last year.

In recent days, about 500 refugees per day have crossed the Finnish land border in Tornio, near the Arctic Circle, after a long journey through Sweden.

(Italics mine.)
Yes, the previous influx of refugees included a lot of people from Iraq. The 500 stoned by the inhospitable bastards would almost certainly be Syrian.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Golden Key
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Just for the record:

Surfing around last night, I found two articles:

"In Finland, a man dressed up like the KKK to protest refugees" (Washington Post). It's about the bus stoning and protest.

It's rooted in
"Ku Klux Klan-clad protester in Lahti anti-asylum seeker demonstration" (Yle Finnish state broadcaster, but in *English!)

The YLE article says, and the WP reiterates:
quote:
The bus contained some 49 people, the majority of whom were fleeing violence in Iraq. The group also included small children, as well as infants in arms, according to Yle’s reporter on the scene, Kirsti Pohjaväre.
{Italics mine.)

Oh, and while waiting to stone the bus, the protesters had nothing better to do than stone the *Red Cross workers*!

BTW, the Yle article is very good, and gets into some context, like:
quote:
All of the reception centres are being placed in communities where there haven’t been many people with foreign backgrounds.


--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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OK, well I stand corrected. As though it makes any difference whether people are fleeing Iraq or Syria (or anywhere else where they're in real danger from bombs, shells, bullets, tyrannical government or criminal thugs pretending to be a government). Having their bus pelted with stones in a supposedly safe and civilised country is just not on.

And, 500 people seeking entry to Finland per day is a mere trickle. To consider that to be an excessive number of refugees for the country is absurd.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, well I stand corrected. As though it makes any difference whether people are fleeing Iraq or Syria (or anywhere else where they're in real danger from bombs, shells, bullets, tyrannical government or criminal thugs pretending to be a government). Having their bus pelted with stones in a supposedly safe and civilised country is just not on.

If they're genuine refugees, no it isn't. Though unfortunately it seems about a third of claimants generally are posing as Syrian when they are not.

quote:
And, 500 people seeking entry to Finland per day is a mere trickle. To consider that to be an excessive number of refugees for the country is absurd.
True, but apparently they think Finland is boring.
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Lyda*Rose

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, well I stand corrected. As though it makes any difference whether people are fleeing Iraq or Syria (or anywhere else where they're in real danger from bombs, shells, bullets, tyrannical government or criminal thugs pretending to be a government). Having their bus pelted with stones in a supposedly safe and civilised country is just not on.

If they're genuine refugees, no it isn't. Though unfortunately it seems about a third of claimants generally are posing as Syrian when they are not.

quote:
And, 500 people seeking entry to Finland per day is a mere trickle. To consider that to be an excessive number of refugees for the country is absurd.
True, but apparently they think Finland is boring.

So if they aren't real refugees, having their bus pelted with stones is on? Just asking.

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
So if they aren't real refugees, having their bus pelted with stones is on? Just asking.

Yeah, I realized how that would read after I posted it, but too late to change it now.

Personally I don't agree with throwing stones at a busful of fake refugees, or anyone else for that matter, but it can be hard to have sympathy for people who have been discovered to be posing as Syrian refugees with forged passports and who haven't actually escaped danger, just fancied a change. Some of the genuine Syrian refugees are getting annoyed with people who obviously aren't from the towns they claim to be from and speak Arabic with non-Syrian accents. How widespread this is, nobody is quite sure, though German officials estimate about one in three Syrian migrants isn't Syrian.

No excuse for the Finnish hooligans, anyhow.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
.
No excuse for the Finnish hooligans, anyhow.

And isn't this the whole point?
You think those bastards, and all the whingers protesting, really care about where the refugees are from?

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Ariel
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Of course not. That was my point.
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Gamaliel
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Perhaps Ad Orientem has absconded and is now a refugee from the Ship?

Wherever he's gone, it won't be Ad Occidentum that's for sure ...

Ad Accident Waiting To Happen-dem ...

I'll get me coat ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Oh, please don't apologize. This is the first time in a long time you posted something I enjoyed reading. [Big Grin]

( Welcome to Hell, folks. Please tip your server.)

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan (all countries much less able to take in refugees than Finland) have received far more refugees.

Of course they have. It is reasonable that people should seek asylum in the first safe place. There migth be- there certainly is- a case for some kind of organised dispersal scheme after that so that all the responsibility doesn't fall on near neighbours, but really it's hard to see how anybody who arrives in Finland is strictly speaking a refugee any more, unless they have claimed asylum elsewhere and then been dispersed to Finland by international agreement.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
really it's hard to see how anybody who arrives in Finland is strictly speaking a refugee any more, unless they have claimed asylum elsewhere and then been dispersed to Finland by international agreement.

A refugee is someone who has fled their home seeking refuge somewhere safe. Does that change if they travel further than absolutely necessary? Especially if they pass through other places where they are not welcomed and do not feel safe?

I would suspect that if the refugees are arriving in coaches that someone had organised that trip, and therefore they were being dispersed within Europe by international agreement. Whether the 500 per day arriving at other borders were in coaches or making their own way I can't comment on.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, well I stand corrected. As though it makes any difference whether people are fleeing Iraq or Syria (or anywhere else where they're in real danger from bombs, shells, bullets, tyrannical government or criminal thugs pretending to be a government). Having their bus pelted with stones in a supposedly safe and civilised country is just not on.

And, 500 people seeking entry to Finland per day is a mere trickle. To consider that to be an excessive number of refugees for the country is absurd.

Again, that was 500 per day at *one border crossing*, not for the whole country.

But no, no one should be treated like that, ever. And people from one place aren't more or less valuable than those from another place. I wasn't trying to make a point--just trying to understand and responding to the article that someone else provided.

[Angel]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
really it's hard to see how anybody who arrives in Finland is strictly speaking a refugee any more, unless they have claimed asylum elsewhere and then been dispersed to Finland by international agreement.

A refugee is someone who has fled their home seeking refuge somewhere safe. Does that change if they travel further than absolutely necessary? Especially if they pass through other places where they are not welcomed and do not feel safe?

I would suspect that if the refugees are arriving in coaches that someone had organised that trip, and therefore they were being dispersed within Europe by international agreement. Whether the 500 per day arriving at other borders were in coaches or making their own way I can't comment on.

In a sense it doesn't change. In another sense, it does. I suppose one determining factor is the lenght of time that you spend in the countries you're passing through. I'd agree that if people are arriving in coaches that's probably being done in some kind of properly organised way, which is fine.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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