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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Smartarse but More Besides
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The obvious question then is, was your bad experience in London because you didn't feel at home rather than having anything to do with multi-culturalism? Were those experiences the result of being the outsider who some people never accepted?
You're being very diplomatic Alan. I think it more likely that Ad Orientem was much the same then as he is now. If one behaves like that in real life it will be unpleasant.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Ad Orientem, how frequently do you pray the Jesus Prayer?
Or that of St. Ephrem? The last part is especially important, IME:
quote:
O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.
But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.
Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.
Often enough, I suppose.
Really? It doesn't show...
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Whether it's a good or bad thing, wanting everyone to be like you is simply not a realistic goal. Even if you shut the doors to immigration, you will find, sooner or later, your generation supplanted by the next-- a group who will undoubtedly have different taste in music, fashion, clothing, and entertainment-- which will then determine what sorts of things are offered in public shops and activities. Christians have been seeing this for decades in the "worship wars".
Gradual change over a generation or two is hardly the same as rapid change over a year or two.
Generational change isn't always so gradual. Although I would agree that generational change is generally easier to except than the sort of cultural change that comes with immigration-- but I don't think it's because of the timeline. I think it has more to do with the central problem of this thread, "accepting the 'other'". Generational change is accepted because it's "our own"-- even when our kids adopt customs and music and dress that is completely foreign to us. But that fact is, we DO accept-- or at least deal with-- those sorts of change. We have to-- it is the way of life. What I was responding to in my original post was the suggestion that if we could just keep all those dang immigrants back where they came from, we would be able to continue on with our nice safe comfortable communities that embrace the same values and customs forever and ever amen. And that's just not possible-- and never has been. Change, including cultural change, is part of life.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
'Judge not, lest ye also be judged ...' Irish_lord99 ... I've heard Orthodox say that this is one of the key Orthodox principles (although why they think it's more a feature of Orthodoxy than any other form of Christianity I don't know - I've encountered plenty of judgemental RCs, Protestants and Orthoes ...)
And yes, I can judgemental myself.
@Steve Langton - sure, I get what you're getting at - you've said it enough times. I'm not in favour of Erastianism either but I think there's a bigger issue at stake here ... and Erastianism and xenophobia is the symptom rather than the cause.
If Ad Orientem is happier in Finland then he was in London's East End I'm happy for him. I'm sure Finland is a delightful place. I'd miss proper cask-conditioned ale as well as fish and chips - and curry ... yes, curry - something brought here from the Indian sub-continent and given a twist ...
I suspect, though, that the Finland Ad Orientem inhabits is something of a Finland of his own imagination ... (hears strains of 'Finlandia' swelling in the background), an idealised one that doesn't take into account all the various facets - good, bad and indifferent.
Finland tends to have a reputation - alongside the rest of Scandinavia - of being rather liberal - big welfare state and so on ... I'm sure there is a nationalistic and jingoistic side too - as there is in Denmark, Sweden and Norway (if we want to include Finland alongside those countries) and Ad Orientem seems to exemplify that.
In fact, he seems to exemplify all these things in spades - Erastianism, a kind of hyper-Orthodox chauvinism, extreme conservatism and a harping back to a mythic past full of trolls and what-have-you ...
I seem to remember some rather unpleasant ideologies emerging from that kind of misty-eyed nationalistic heroic myth territory during the 20th century ...
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
So, yes, I'm very wary of anything that smacks of nationalistic phyletism ... it always seems to lead to unpleasant results.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So, yes, I'm very wary of anything that smacks of nationalistic phyletism ... it always seems to lead to unpleasant results.
Phyletism is the besetting sin of the Orthodox Church.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Generational change isn't always so gradual. Although I would agree that generational change is generally easier to except than the sort of cultural change that comes with immigration-- but I don't think it's because of the timeline. I think it has more to do with the central problem of this thread, "accepting the 'other'". Generational change is accepted because it's "our own"-- even when our kids adopt customs and music and dress that is completely foreign to us.
I'd disagree that it's completely foreign. Generational change is generational - it builds on what went before, even if the direction in which it moves isn't necessarily agreeable to the previous generation. And again, that's different to a completely foreign change that has no such developmental history.
quote:
Change, including cultural change, is part of life.
It occurs to me that part of the explanation we have for why so many in the Middle East appear to despise the Western World has to do with what gets called Cultural Imperialism - that is, the West exporting our cultural trappings to that part of the world. As if (for example) a McDonalds opening in Tehran is in some way an attack upon the Iranian way of life that explains their desire to attack us in return.
You may not agree with that narrative, of course. But there do seem to be a lot of people who think it's wrong for us to take our culture to other countries while simultaneously thinking it's perfectly fine for people from other countries to bring their culture here.
For the record, I think it's wrong both ways. If I were to move to another country I'd expect to have to adapt to the culture there rather than having it adapt to me, and I expect no more nor less of anyone travelling in the opposite direction.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Finland tends to have a reputation - alongside the rest of Scandinavia - of being rather liberal - big welfare state and so on ... I'm sure there is a nationalistic and jingoistic side too - as there is in Denmark, Sweden and Norway (if we want to include Finland alongside those countries
There is a school of thought that says the Scandinavian countries have bigger welfare states because they are relatively culturally homogenous - that is, the people don't mind tax money going on such things because the recipients are still "them". That's not incompatible with there being a nationalistic and jingoistic side to those countries in the slightest.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I can see how that would work, Marvin.
I'm not sure I buy it, though ...
That said, I've been quite surprised to hear Swedish people I know in the UK who are remarkably liberal in other ways bemoaning the fact that Sweden is more multi-cultural than it was when they lived there - so I can see the point you're making.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Marvin
The problem is that it overlooks the nature of "other". You will know the niceties my father is negotiating when he declares himself Brummagen or Black Country (he's a hybrid). You will be aware how Scouse changes according to how close into Liverpool you live. My friend who lived in the Wirral still counted herself a Scouser. Then there are the exact details of which village you come from on the bus route into Leeds.
Humans search for the "other" to define themselves against. That can be people who have immigrated from halfway across the world or from the next street.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
For the record, I think it's wrong both ways. If I were to move to another country I'd expect to have to adapt to the culture there rather than having it adapt to me, and I expect no more nor less of anyone travelling in the opposite direction.
Surely there can be a happy medium - one where people from different backgrounds can partake or integrate good/better ideas from other cultures. Think of the magic that is curry! Without the ability to indulge in the paroxysm of foreign spices, the British Isles would still be mired in flavourless boiled everything.
Not to mention cute foreign ideas like democracy, scientific method, the number zero, and cats. OK, cats are terrible, but they are wildly popular. Call that one an exception that illuminates the principle.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
For the record, I think it's wrong both ways. If I were to move to another country I'd expect to have to adapt to the culture there rather than having it adapt to me, and I expect no more nor less of anyone travelling in the opposite direction.
Based on prior waves of immigration, that just doesn't seem to be realistic. It's just not realistic to expect people to relocate halfway across the world and bring none of their culture, none of their traditions, none of their language or art or music with them. And that's just not the way it works. While there are exceptions, there are traditional patterns of assimilation for first, second, and third generation immigrants. As noted above, we have lots of myths about "good" first generation immigrants who fully assimilate, but that's not the reality. Most first gen immigrants, regardless of where or why they are immigrating for where they are from or where they are going to, will retain large aspects of their language and culture, will prefer to live and socialize and worship in first-gen settings, and may take a long time if ever to fully become fluent in the new language. You'll get further assimilation with later generations.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Exactly. I mean, look at the Kings of England after 1066. It took several generations before any of the buggers actually spoke English and considered it their homeland, but it did happen.
Same thing with the Hanoverians, actually.
And look what happened to the language called "English". It picked up a massive pile of French words.
(Currently listening to a podcast on the history of the language, going all the way back to proto-Indo-European roots. Expect evangelisation on the subject.)
[ 23. September 2015, 05:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
(Currently listening to a podcast on the history of the language, going all the way back to proto-Indo-European roots. Expect evangelisation on the subject.)
Does it say anything about the origin of Finnish? Because, to the best of my knowledge, it has no place within the European family of languages. It appears Finns aren't Europeans, and I want to know where to send them off to.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
(Currently listening to a podcast on the history of the language, going all the way back to proto-Indo-European roots. Expect evangelisation on the subject.)
Does it say anything about the origin of Finnish? Because, to the best of my knowledge, it has no place within the European family of languages. It appears Finns aren't Europeans, and I want to know where to send them off to.
Genetically Finns are Europeans. The language is however a bit of an oddity but t's in the same group as Estonian and Hungarian.
[ 23. September 2015, 06:28: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Genetically Finns are Europeans.
You do realise that genetically there's bugger all difference between Finns and Australian Aboriginals, don't you? Basically, we're talking about slightly different proportions of the phenotypes which are present within African populations. And, if you do accept those marginally significant variations in population statistics to be relevant then Finns are Asian, from Siberia, rather than European.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
You can easily find the information on the net, such as Wikipedia. Finns are one of the oldest European peoples, closest to Estonians and Swedes.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
You can also find information on the internet that says Stalin is a saint. "It says so on the internet" is a very dangerous authority to stand on.
Nevertheless, Human haplogroup distribution map (from Wikipedia). Look at that, N1 group peoples covering Siberia with migration route for the N1c Finnic subgroup from the east into Finland. With most of the rest of the Europeans (R1 group) migrating from northern India splitting the I1 and I2 groups in Scandanavia and the Balkans.
What does that mean? Well, that most Europeans are Indians, Swedes and Norwegians are closely related to Balkans, and Finns are on first name terms with Attila the Hun. Makes sense.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You can easily find the information on the net, such as Wikipedia. Finns are one of the oldest European peoples, closest to Estonians and Swedes.
See, the whole point of the kind of analysis that linguists do is to show that ancestral Finns and Estonians are not close to ancestral Swedes, and that to the extent that Finnish has incorporated Swedish words into it that's as a result of much later contact when they arrived in their present locations.
The map of haplogroups backs this up nicely.
Describing people as "oldest Europeans" just begs the question, given that no-one, whether evolutionist or creationist, actually believes that Europe is ground zero for the human race. We all came from somewhere else originally. And the evidence points to Swedes and Finns being from separate groups of people that eventually ended up living next to each other.
Your reasons for being fine with a Swede next door but not a Syrian next door have to do with emotion, not logic or science.
[ 23. September 2015, 07:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There are other linguistic mysteries across Europe - such as Basque for instance that doesn't appear to bear any relation to surrounding languages - Spanish, Catalan, French - and which may well be a contender for the oldest language in Europe. Welsh makes such a claim too.
Of course, there are separatist and nationalist tendencies within the Basque country and in Wales - and it can lead to the kind of 'we were here first, everyone else can fuck off' xenophobia that Ad Orientem seems to exemplify.
It's for Mousethief and other Orthodox to comment on whether phyletism is Orthodoxy's besetting sin ... personally, in face-to-face interaction with Orthodox I've never encountered any full-on examples of that but I know people who have -- and I've seen enough nationalistic and xenophobic shite online posted by Orthodoxen to recognise that it is certainly a problem.
That's not to let the other Christian traditions off the hook ... we all have our besetting sins and blind-spots.
Often, our greatest strength can be our greatest weakness. One of the strengths of Orthodoxy - in my view - is the sense of 'groundedness' and the emphasis on the Incarnation (which it shares with Roman Catholicism too, of course) - and this, of course, can lead to an attachment to particular things and places and objects - be it the Holy Lane and its holy sites and relics or particular monasteries or shrines or tracts of land. I was rather taken aback when I heard a sermon by an Orthodox priest from Wales in which he attributed the failure of the Water Board to build a reservoir in a particular North Walian location (and reservoirs are a bone of contention of course with many Welsh people as they didn't have any 'say' in where these things were built) to the intervention of a particular Celtic Saint to whom the ground had been granted 'in perpetuity' ...
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I'm happy to put that down to eccentricity - in another sermon, which I didn't hear - he apparently described a clash between a Mercian Saint and a 'crocodile' ... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
However, one can easily see how this could develop into an overly emotional attachment to particular places and topography.
So, in that respect, I do share Steve Langton's suspicion of religious nationalism and the tendency towards 'Constantinianism' and Erastianism.
All Christian traditions have their weak spots and Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy can - I said 'can' not 'must' - be so conservative as to swing towards xenophobia, chauvinism and even fascism.
There are equal dangers within highly conservative forms of Protestant Christianity - and also liberalism - because many liberals are remarkably illiberal when it comes to dealing with people who don't share their views ...
I'm not saying that Ad Orientem is an Andres Breivik in the making ... but I do think he's on thin ice and in danger of slipping ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Of course, there are separatist and nationalist tendencies within the Basque country and in Wales - and it can lead to the kind of 'we were here first, everyone else can fuck off' xenophobia that Ad Orientem seems to exemplify.
Yes, but the point was kind of that the Basques might actually have some science on their side when saying things like that.
A Finnish person might even have some evidence on their side when they say something about being first in Finland. The main reason for having a go at Ad Orientem is that he claims to speak for the whole of bloody Europe, when in fact his ancestry isn't the same as most of Europe.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well yes.
I've long since given up on giving Ad Orientem any credit for sense.
Anyone who believes that any form of media, anywhere in the world is somehow immaculately free of bias or a particular angle (political or otherwise) is clearly either daft or simply very naive.
But of course that puts me firmly in the self-hating liberal relativist camp ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Ad Orientem seems stuck back in the 14th century. Heck, even the 14th century wasn't stuck back in the 14th century ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Genetically Finns are Europeans. The language is however a bit of an oddity but it's in the same group as Estonian and Hungarian.
Genetically we are all Africans. The religion we share comes from exactly the same place as most of the refugees you keep whinging about.
btw, I don't know about Estonians, or Finns in general, but the Hungarians are showing a distinctly xenophobic streak.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm sometimes teased aboard the Ship for being something of an Orthophile - and I suspect I do cut the Orthodox rather more slack than they might actually deserve ...
Whether that's down to some exotic appeal or some kind of deep-seated atavism on my part, I don't know ...
Whatever the case, I suspect that I wouldn't cut it anywhere near as much slack as I do if the likes of Ad Orientem were the only Orthodox I'd ever encountered either online or in real life.
If Ad Orientem were all I had to go on I would have filed Orthodoxy under 'Full of reactionary nut-cases, best avoided' a long time ago.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A Hungarian once told me that the Hungarian language is related in some ways to Finnish but is actually closer to Turkish ...
Which might cause Ad Orientem some palpitations if this is actually the case ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Something I read in Neil Oliver's book on the Vikings suggested that the Sami were so early in the area that they were there during the last glaciation. Which, if true (and I need to check it out) makes them first.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
According to Wikipedia archaelogical finds from 10,000BC show sufficient stylistic similarities to Sami cultural artefacts to make a continuity between those first people following the retreating glaciers and the Sami highly likely. So, that makes the Sami a far older people than any other peoples in Europe. Certainly a longer presence in Scandinavia and Russia than the relatively recently arrived Finns (some theories place the arrival of Finns in Finland as late as the early centuries AD).
Compared to Sweden and Norway, Finland has failed to grant land rights to the Sami, who are thus relatively disadvantaged and their culture more threatened by the dominant European cultures than in Norway and Sweden.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
A Hungarian once told me that the Hungarian language is related in some ways to Finnish but is actually closer to Turkish ...
Which might cause Ad Orientem some palpitations if this is actually the case ...
It isn't. Finnish and Hungarian are both Finno-Ugric languages; Turkish is a Turkic language (oddly enough) and there's no wknown relationship between them, besides possibly some contact borrowings. Even the wider designation of Uralic doesn't include Turkic, which if it is part of a larger group would be Altaic. If the concept of Altaic languages has legs.
Short version - no, Turkic and Hungarian are not related. Hungarian and Finnish are.
[ 23. September 2015, 11:02: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - thanks for that, Karl. Who says the Ship isn't informative?
It would appear from what my Hungarian friend that a lot of Turkish and Hungarian people do believe that their respective languages are related - but thanks for clarifying that they aren't.
I'm sure Ad Orientem will be breathing a sigh of relief ...
Of course, what he hasn't told us yet is that both the Old and New Testaments were originally written in Finnish and later transcribed into Hebrew and Greek ...
Indeed, Abraham didn't leave Ur of the Chaldees but took his herds of reindeer across the Arctic Circle and down to a spot where Helsinki now stands ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
According to Wikipedia archaelogical finds from 10,000BC show sufficient stylistic similarities to Sami cultural artefacts to make a continuity between those first people following the retreating glaciers and the Sami highly likely. So, that makes the Sami a far older people than any other peoples in Europe. Certainly a longer presence in Scandinavia and Russia than the relatively recently arrived Finns (some theories place the arrival of Finns in Finland as late as the early centuries AD).
I read some stuff about this shortly after my last post, via a range of Wikipedia articles. Seems likely the Finns jumped across from Estonia at some point.
Of course, there's always a degree of interbreeding and so on which means that it's not all cut and dried, but there's certainly plenty of indication that Sami culture predates Finnish by a sizable amount.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well yes.
I've long since given up on giving Ad Orientem any credit for sense.
Anyone who believes that any form of media, anywhere in the world is somehow immaculately free of bias or a particular angle (political or otherwise) is clearly either daft or simply very naive.
But of course that puts me firmly in the self-hating liberal relativist camp ...
Ad Orientem seems stuck back in the 14th century. Heck, even the 14th century wasn't stuck back in the 14th century ...
You see, you display both the hypocrisy and folly of modern secular liberalism. It's perfectly right and proper for people in Asia and Africa to be against western cultural invasion (and so they should be, I don't approve of it either way round), but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.
It might well be that Christian Europe is doomed but that will have have been due to the folly of western secular liberalism (which hates Christian Europe probably more than the Muslin East). Not only will Christian Europe be doomed but also western secular liberalism and thus they will have shot themselves in the foot at the same time.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Of course, there's always a degree of interbreeding
What?? Cultures mixing, and integrating with one another? But, immigrants (in this case Finns displacing the native Sami inhabitants) remain pure to their tradition and never integrate with the native culture. Though, if they gain enough numbers they will displace the native culture with their own. But, never interbreed and mix their cultures into something new. Never!
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'm desperately struggling to see in what way my culture or identity is under threat. I'm still speaking English, eating cheddar, drinking bitter, talking about the weather and going to church on Sundays. I've yet to be prevented from doing any of them by all the Muslims around.
What's AO actually talking about?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What's AO actually talking about?
The 64 million dollar question. No one knows. I'm not sure AO does either.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What's AO actually talking about?
A fear of kebab shops. I explained this earlier.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.
Well, that's where your problem is. My love of church bells, folk music and real ale doesn't make me a despicable racist/xenophobe.
Your hankering after an undefined white, Christian Europe that never existed, and your hatred of brown-skinned Muslims living among us, does make you despicable racist/xenophobe.
Simples.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.
Well, that's where your problem is. My love of church bells, folk music and real ale doesn't make me a despicable racist/xenophobe.
Your hankering after an undefined white, Christian Europe that never existed, and your hatred of brown-skinned Muslims living among us, does make you despicable racist/xenophobe.
Simples.
I never said I hated anyone, least of all because of the colour of their skin. What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam. If you think I'm exaggerating then all one need do is look to the Middle-East itself. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, all of which though not democracies were secular and at the first opportunity became hotbeds of radical Islam. It is no coincidence. As I said earlier, it is in the very DNA of the Islamic faith itself.
[ 23. September 2015, 12:34: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
You see, Ab Noxious, you display both the hypocrisy and folly of medieval chauvinism. It's perfectly right and proper for people in Finland and Russia to be against western cultural invasion and innovation (and so they should be, I don't approve of it either way round), but if you happen to be non-white and non-European, heaven forbid even a Muslim, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.
It might well be that liberal pluralism is doomed but that will have have been due to the folly of medieval Erastian xenophobia (which hates liberalism probably more than the Muslim East). Not only will liberalism and pluralism be doomed but also ...
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Read.my.lips. I don't hate Europe, I don't hate Christianity, I don't hate my own cultural heritage - I value it greatly.
It's possible to do all those things without sounding like a complete and utter xenophobic and paranoid arse.
The thing is, Arse About Tip Orienteering, you seem to have succumbed to some kind of overly binary and dualistic approach which is just as black-and-white as anything we are likely to find in fundamentalist Islam or fundamentalist anything else.
I'm surprised you can't see that. Perhaps its because you've oriented your head so far up your own arse that you can't see the light of day.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
It's sort of like how anti-same sex marriage heterosexuals feel that their own marriages are threatened by the mere existence of gays who are married. If those brown people live their own lives in close proximity to the xenophobic white folks living their own lives, it will just spoil everything.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You see, you display both the hypocrisy and folly of modern secular liberalism. It's perfectly right and proper for people in Asia and Africa to be against western cultural invasion (and so they should be, I don't approve of it either way round), but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.
You are really equating white imperial racist empire building of the 19 century - involving slavery, removal of resources, divide and conquer etc - with refugees fleeing a war zone in the 21 century?
You're a flat out loon, pal.
Explain to me the difference between your fear of Muslims and the shameful fear of Jewish refugees in the 1930s, because I'm struggling to see any.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.
Well, that's where your problem is. My love of church bells, folk music and real ale doesn't make me a despicable racist/xenophobe.
Your hankering after an undefined white, Christian Europe that never existed, and your hatred of brown-skinned Muslims living among us, does make you despicable racist/xenophobe.
Simples.
I never said I hated anyone, least of all because of the colour of their skin. What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam. If you think I'm exaggerating then all one need do is look to the Middle-East itself. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, all of which though not democracies were secular and at the first opportunity became hotbeds of radical Islam. It is no coincidence. As I said earlier, it is in the very DNA of the Islamic faith itself.
Hardly at the first opportunity. All had been independent since not long after WW2 and have only become hotbeds of Islam in the last decade, in many coincidentally since the West started to interfere in that region again.
[ 23. September 2015, 12:47: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.
Well, that's where your problem is. My love of church bells, folk music and real ale doesn't make me a despicable racist/xenophobe.
Your hankering after an undefined white, Christian Europe that never existed, and your hatred of brown-skinned Muslims living among us, does make you despicable racist/xenophobe.
Simples.
I never said I hated anyone, least of all because of the colour of their skin. What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam. If you think I'm exaggerating then all one need do is look to the Middle-East itself. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, all of which though not democracies were secular and at the first opportunity became hotbeds of radical Islam. It is no coincidence. As I said earlier, it is in the very DNA of the Islamic faith itself.
Oh, and add to that persecuting Christians.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.
Well, that's where your problem is. My love of church bells, folk music and real ale doesn't make me a despicable racist/xenophobe.
Your hankering after an undefined white, Christian Europe that never existed, and your hatred of brown-skinned Muslims living among us, does make you despicable racist/xenophobe.
Simples.
I never said I hated anyone, least of all because of the colour of their skin. What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam. If you think I'm exaggerating then all one need do is look to the Middle-East itself. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, all of which though not democracies were secular and at the first opportunity became hotbeds of radical Islam. It is no coincidence. As I said earlier, it is in the very DNA of the Islamic faith itself.
Hardly at the first opportunity. All had been independent since not long after WW2 and have only become hotbeds of Islam in the last decade, in many coincidentally since the West started to interfere in that region again.
And hopefully the USA, Israel and their lapdogs will have to make an account of themselves one day.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I never said I hated anyone
Protestants, freemasons, 'self-hating liberals', Jews, Muslims living next door to you... apart from them, and the continual mentioning of a white, Christian Europe.
All perfectly reasonable. Nothing at all 'Aryan' about that...
(edited to add, Jews, because, you know)
[ 23. September 2015, 12:59: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Then you either misunderstand me or misrepresent me.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
There's literally a whole board of people here who've come to the same conclusion as I have, based solely on what you've written here during your time on the Ship.
[ 23. September 2015, 13:04: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I think it was over in Purgatory that Alan Cresswell was talking about how people like him and me are always described as “expats” rather than “migrants”. AFAICT the compelling factor behind this is that we are from a wealthy country and are white.
After more than ten years living in a foreign country, I have adapted on some points. I speak the language fluently. I work and pay taxes. I have mostly adopted the diet including several foodstuffs which scare many of my compatriots. For instance I eat raw meat in some circumstances (carpaccio is damn tasty). I cheer for les Bleus and join in the interminable discussions of politics. I even married one of the locals.
However I haven’t adapted in all points. I won’t eat raw meat in other circumstances (I won’t touch tartare because the raw *egg* freaks me out – nothing to do with salmonella, just ewwww) and you’d better bet I’ll starve before I eat horse (although to be fair, many French people don’t eat horse these days, either, which goes to show that stereotypes are changing all the time). You’ll tear my English-tea-with-a-spot-of-milk out of my cold, dead hands and I maintain that the only proper thing to put on a piece of toast is Marmite. My primary news source is the BBC. Being a Protestant places me in a distinct religious minority. Plenty of other British people change their habits far less than I have. IME Americans also integrate less than British people/spend a lot of their time hanging out with other Americans, but I think is mostly because they are so much further from home than we are rather than any innate inability to integrate.
Anyway, no one is ever going to accuse me of being a non-assimilating immigrant destroying French culture. My English habits are perceived to be cute, as are my occasional linguistic mistakes (in our house a fried egg/oeuf sur le plat is always called a flattened egg/oeuf à plat after the time I got this wrong, because, hey, adorable). When people come round my house and I serve them traditional English food (scones, toad in the hole, kedgeree, pie, proper custard…) they enjoy trying something new and different. Furthermore, French people have usually been raised to believe that English cooking is disgusting so they ought to be prejudiced against the food. They try it and like it. In a Wales-France rugby match, no one thinks there’s anything odd about me supporting Wales.
To all intents and purpose, I am an economic migrant. Except that I am so white as to be practically transparent and come from a country as wealthy as the one I emigrated to so apparently I am not and no one is worrying about how well integrated I am. I think this says a lot about perceived changing of cultures.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There's literally a whole board of people here who've come to the same conclusion as I have, based solely on what you've written here during your time on the Ship.
That may well be, but that's hardly surprising given that the vast majority of posters are liberal secular.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
To all intents and purpose, I am an economic migrant. Except that I am so white as to be practically transparent and come from a country as wealthy as the one I emigrated to so apparently I am not and no one is worrying about how well integrated I am. I think this says a lot about perceived changing of cultures.
My son is the same. He lives in Heidelberg, he only ever speaks German unless he's visiting home. His long term partner is from Georgia and speaks no English. She is fluent in Georgian, Russian and German. All his friends are German, except for one Canadian. He works hard and pays taxes.
He imports English tea and baked beans by the gallon - but in every other way he's now a German. He speaks the language so well they don't know he's not born and bred there.
He moved there because, even with a Masters degree, he couldn't get a job round here.
Yet nobody calls him an economic migrant.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There's literally a whole board of people here who've come to the same conclusion as I have, based solely on what you've written here during your time on the Ship.
That may well be, but that's hardly surprising given that the vast majority of posters are liberal secular.
No, the majority of the posters are western Protestant Christians. But keep on telling yourself that it's our prejudices that matter, not yours.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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