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Source: (consider it) Thread: Smartarse but More Besides
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Ariel: "Lamas have had in the past. They have come and gone."
They have had whom? Ad Orientem?

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Try Google translate.

*Engages Host Hat slightly crankily*

You've already been told, very clearly, that this is not an acceptable strategy. So why are you doing it again?

English articles. Okay? Telling people to translate your Finnish articles Is. Not. Good. Enough.

*Disengages Host Hat*

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Putin annexed Crimea, if that action were consequencelss - what do you think the long term fall out is likely to be ? Has Finland not been invaded by Russia before ?

Crimea has nothing to do with us, but don't think the US and the EU are without blame. Yes, the Soviets invaded us in '39 but that is irrelevant to the situation today. The sanctions are significantly harming our economy and for what? American expansionism and Russophobia.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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The principle of not nicking other people's countries is in everybody's interest.

[ 24. September 2015, 11:31: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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AO--

What would affirming Finland's Christian identity look like? On a practical basis?


Ariel--

Hmmmm...

Lammas: the Pagan holiday.

Llamas: Latin american cousins to the pushmi-pullyu.

Lamas: A kind of Buddhist monk, particularly from Tibetan Buddhism. Did the lamas get lost? Does the mystical gateway on Mt. Kailas go to Finland?


As Ogden Nash wrote:

quote:
THE LAMA
The one-l lama,
He's a priest.
The two-l llama,
He's a beast.
And I will bet
A silk pajama
There isn't any
Three-l lllama.



--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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To which Nash wrote a footnote; Fooey, there's a major fire called a 3-alarmer.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Groan.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Ariel: "Lamas have had in the past. They have come and gone."
They have had whom? Ad Orientem?
"Lama" is Finnish for "recession".
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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Lama is Portuguese for 'mud'.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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I don't think anyone is saying that the USA, the EU or any other political or economic bloc is squeaky clean, Ad Orientem.

Shipmates of whatever political persuasion are more than capable of criticising the US, the UK, the EU or any other country or system.

The problem, as I see it, is one of increasing polarisation where one ignores or overlooks problems at home - or with close neighbours - in your case, Russia - in order to blame 'others' and wallow in some kind of paranoid self-pity.

I think we can see this both on the Right and the Left of the political spectrum.

What happens then is a kind of 'denial' thing - and the elevation of murky political leaders one approves of (or disapproves of less than others) to almost demigod status. I think we can see this with the way some of the more right-wing and Erastian Orthodox bang on about Putin - I've even seen sites where he's cited as some kind of Saintly figure - overlooking the fact that his personal life isn't exactly up to scratch in terms of the moral mores of 'Holy Russia' ...

Didn't he shack up with a dishy actress or something?

Anyhow, whatever the case any form of West = Bad or East = Good or t'other way round flattens and diminishes the real issues and leaves us with an overly binary and dualistic view of the world.

Yes, the Cold War is back with us (if indeed it ever went away) and I'm not happy about that at all - and I certainly don't go in for the kind of knee-jerk condemnation of Russia that some indulge in - nor its corollary, a knee-jerk condemnation of the US or the EU or whacky conspiracy theories about the Freemasons ...

I'm surprised that you can't see how your views can so easily lead to anti-Semitism and xenophobia - but perhaps you're cool with that ...

I believe it's possible to be against Zionism and to criticise Israel without stepping over the line into anti-Semitism but I get the impression in your case that you believe there to be some kind of vast Jewish-Zionist conspiracy afoot, aided by the Freemasons - and for all I know, lizard-men from Planet Zogg ...

I don't think anyone here would have an issue with you wanting the best for your country or wanting fairer distribution of wealth or wanting Finland to leave the EU ... there's nothing wrong with any of that and you're entitled to your opinion. I'm fairly pro-Europe but not indifferent to some of the weaknesses and inefficiencies of the EU - but that doesn't mean I'd immediately demonise anyone who wanted out.

No, what people seem to be objecting to is a kind of Ad Tantrum effect, a hissy-fit reaction against anything and anyone who doesn't fit some kind of idealised mould you've constructed in your own mind.

I value Europe's Christian heritage too - our institutions, laws and culture have been largely shaped by the Christian faith - and that's partly why I react against Steve Langton's continual banging of the anti-Constantinian drum. Christendom had strengths and it had weaknesses, but whatever the rights and wrongs of all that, the concept of Christendom is on the wane - it's been eroding for centuries.

Whether we like it or not, and whoever you 'blame' for that - Protestantism, the Enlightenment, heck the Great Schism of 1054, medieval Scholasticism or whatever else (Freemasons? Jews? [Roll Eyes] ) that's the reality.

We can't turn back the clock. We have to work with whatever cards we're dealt. We're living in liberal, pluralist democracies. They ain't perfect but neither was an idealised Christendom whether in the Byzantine Empire, Holy Russia, Anglo-Saxon England pre-Norman Conquest or whatever other period people fondly imagine as some kind of golden age.

There never was a golden age. Crap has always happened. Get over it already.

Yes, there are challenges with secularism, yes, radical jihadism is a major, major issue - so is climate change, so is rampant, out of control capitalism, so are lots of other things ...

We have to learn to live and adapt, to address those issues we feel strongly about and we have to learn to live and work with others who may share similar values - of all faiths or none.

Withdrawing into some imagined fastness - whether it be an Amish commune or some kind of monocultural 'Christendom' state that hasn't existed for hundreds of years isn't the way to go.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Crimea probably deserves its own thread. The history is rather interesting. No idea what the aboriginal history is, but my recall when the Russians annexed it recently as discussed locally here (we have a huge Ukrainian descended minority) is that it was settled by Greeks, conquered by Russia, given to Ukraine in Soviet times. The Russians are successfully conflating Hungarian, Bulgarian and Romania neo-fascists with Ukrainian nationalism as they present it to their citizens. I suspect there is a little bit of truth to it. The recent Hungarian xenophobia has helped their ideas. It is also helpful to understand that the borders of all of the countries are considered relatively flexible by many in the area, and they think in terms of aspirations for some historical grandeur in many cases, such that Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Ukraine, Russia, Poland, all have been in different places and thus all of the countries contain groups and areas where the people may well consider themselves part of another country or ethnicity by virtue of language.

As NATO and American influences have moved east, to the door step of Russia. it has become rather concerned about the strategic situation with a bottle neck piece of Russia to the east, and American influence in all the countries that are on its southern flank. Russia is paranoid, with some justification. About that time I added Pravda to my RSS newsfeed, and confirmed that they think rather differently about the manner in which the USA (to a lesser extent the EU) want to spread "democracy" to the east, because they read democracy as really infiltrating so they can take raw materials and make money, at the expense of themselves. America being more interested in making other countries financially dependent so they can dictate their economies ether through some form of aid-exploitation or via IMF dictation. Russia would see this area as their sphere of interest which is being targetted. The underlying message I've been taking is that everyone's thinking is combining 19th century colonialism and dividing up the world post 2 world wars.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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Yes, and I think the Russians are right to be concerned.

However ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
whereas Karl being a self-confessed liberal and a backslider to boot, is given the full Anglo-Saxon works (or more accurately, Old Dutch) ... ?

Karl is clearly a Freemason and Zionist sympathiser.

No, no, no. You've got it all wrong.

The Zionist sympathisers are alright. It's those muslim-loving, Hamas supporting anti-Zionists that are the problem. Shipping all the Jews off to Israel is good, it stops them polluting our pure Christian culture.

Haven't you read any of the self-evident truth that AO has been trying to explain to us?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
None of these involve literally declaring that a counting exercise has to be undertaken, but none of them are logically consistent with a usage that suggests that the majority of people are involved.

The majority of people aren't anything, except stupid and lazy. But I'd think that during the French Revolution, it wasn't terribly unusual to be radical.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Help me out here - more than 70% of Finns are in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, with around 1% in the Finnish Orthodox Church.

Last time I looked, the Lutheran Church was a protestant Evangelical church - and Ad Orientem has stated that western Protestant Christians are the same as liberal secularists - which AO believes are bad.

But then AO says he would now vote for a Christian socialist party.

Isn't it likely that a Finnish Christian socialist party would be largely made up of Lutheran Christians, and wouldn't he therefore be voting for western secularists?

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Putin annexed Crimea, if that action were consequencelss - what do you think the long term fall out is likely to be ? Has Finland not been invaded by Russia before ?

Crimea has nothing to do with us, but don't think the US and the EU are without blame. Yes, the Soviets invaded us in '39 but that is irrelevant to the situation today. The sanctions are significantly harming our economy and for what? American expansionism and Russophobia.
Try telling that to the Ukrainians I know, do you want me to introduce you? One of them has a collection of knives that she might want to introduce you too as well.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
No, no, no. You've got it all wrong.

The Zionist sympathisers are alright. It's those muslim-loving, Hamas supporting anti-Zionists that are the problem. Shipping all the Jews off to Israel is good, it stops them polluting our pure Christian culture.

Haven't you read any of the self-evident truth that AO has been trying to explain to us?

I wonder if AO has considered converting to some proper authentic Finnish religion rather than that Middle Eastern nonsense?

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
We could save a load lots of money if we left as this article (in Finnish) suggests.

Let me get this right. You have a position that you wish to support. And, the best you could manage is an article that no one else here can read? Really? You thought that was a good idea? Really?

Just when I was thinking you couldn't demonstrate a lower level of intelligence you do just that. I read somewhere on the internet that Finns are the closest relations to cro-magnon. But, cro-magnons managed to make functional tools, so clearly were more intelligent than the one example of Finnish intelligence we've been honoured to experience.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The principle of not nicking other people's countries is in everybody's interest.

Tell this to the USA and UK re Iraq.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I wonder if AO has considered converting to some proper authentic Finnish religion rather than that Middle Eastern nonsense?

Consideration requires an ability to, well, consider alternatives and evaluate the advantages and disadvantages. The evidence is that he doesn't have sufficient intelligence for that much mental exercise.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe it's just me, but watching orfeo and Mousethief wag their etymological dicks at each other is a lot more entertaining than reading anything Ad Orientum has to say.

Now, could you get this from a robot?

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Participating in etymological dick-waving is a lot more entertaining.

...although, is it really etymological? [Devil]

Or in your case, perhaps, entymological? Not that I want any details, thanks, just to insult. [Two face]

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
by orfeo;
quote:
To be "radical" you have to be unusual, not common.

If we're being thoroughly etymological, 'radical' means one of two things, which are nothing to do with unusualness or commonness.
Three. Your radical group could be a bunch of square roots.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I wonder if AO has considered converting to some proper authentic Finnish religion rather than that Middle Eastern nonsense?

He really should get into the Kalevala. Not least because it helps with Sibelius.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:

In the urban context where I live, however, this is not necessarily the case. It's not that the Muslims here are cocooned, but that the contact they may have with the kind of society you mention is not great, or not socially significant. Indeed, some scholars say that Muslims in some English communities have become less secular over time, as their numbers have increased along with social segregation, They haven't had to interact with the indigenous culture to the same extent, and the rate of marrying out has dropped, etc. They may also be from stricter and less educated cultural communities in their homelands.


Good. Who are these scholars, and where can I find their work?
Let me reiterate that neither I nor the commentators below are saying Muslims are inevitably radical fanatics or fundamentalists (my Muslim neighbour and her very successful children certainly aren't). That having been said, let me add to the list issues that might lead to or be sign of more intense Muslim identification rather than secularisation:

- global politics as a recruitment tool for fundamentalist ideas
- racism and/or Islamophobia in the West
- the increasing demand for and availability of separate Muslim schools
- poverty
- white flight
- the traditional British policy of celebrating or tolerating multiculturalism rather than emphasising assimilation/integration
- reinforcement of particular cultural practices when the Muslims in question mostly come from the same South Asian background
- perhaps societal confusion about what it means to be British


Here are some complete texts on the net which may be of interest.

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf (this offers a very good overview of the British situation and talks about the diversity of British Muslims)

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33166.pdf (see section on the UK, though the rest may be interesting)


There are many paragraphs in texts on Google Books that highlight these and related issues. E.g.:

'Cultural Diversity and the Schools: Education for cultural diversity' by James Lynch, et al, pp 181, 182

'The Radicalization of Diasporas and Terrorism' by Bruce Hoffman, et al, pp. 10,11

'Interculturalism: The New Era of Cohesion and Diversity' by Ted Cantle, pp. 121, 122

'Counter-Terrorism Policing: Community, Cohesion and Security' by Sharon Pickering, et al, pp. 39

'Muslim Citizens in the West: Spaces and Agents of Inclusion and Exclusion' edited by Miss Nina Markovic, pp. 36,37

'The Blackwell Companion to the Sociology of Families' edited by Jacqueline Scott, pp. 280, 281

'Consanguinity in Context'by Alan H. Bittles, pp. 59.

There are also serious newspaper articles on these issues.

Much more could be said, of course. I'm willing to post or look for more sources, but for now the above should provide enough food for comment if you're so inclined.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
We could save a load lots of money if we left as this article (in Finnish) suggests.

Let me get this right. You have a position that you wish to support. And, the best you could manage is an article that no one else here can read? Really? You thought that was a good idea? Really?

Just when I was thinking you couldn't demonstrate a lower level of intelligence you do just that. I read somewhere on the internet that Finns are the closest relations to cro-magnon. But, cro-magnons managed to make functional tools, so clearly were more intelligent than the one example of Finnish intelligence we've been honoured to experience.

And how exactly would I get the same article in English?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The principle of not nicking other people's countries is in everybody's interest.

Tell this to the USA and UK re Iraq.
Oh, I think it's been pretty well demonstrated that what we did there (not quite nicking as in the grand colonial days, BTW) was not in our interest.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And how exactly would I get the same article in English?

You could get another article, one in English that makes the same point. You could provide a self-translation of a portion of this one. Or you could pursue some other line of argument. But posting an article that nobody but yourself can read doesn't do anything but make you look an ass.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The problem, as I see it, is one of increasing polarisation where one ignores or overlooks problems at home - or with close neighbours - in your case, Russia - in order to blame 'others' and wallow in some kind of paranoid self-pity.

But Russia is Orfodoks, don't you know. So invading Crimea is just tickety-boo, and criticizing them for doing so is Russophobia. And if Russia wants to be a Mayja Playa by doing things like annexing bits of other countries, who is the US or UK or UN to squeak about it?

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I believe it's possible to be against Zionism and to criticise Israel without stepping over the line into anti-Semitism but I get the impression in your case that you believe there to be some kind of vast Jewish-Zionist conspiracy afoot, aided by the Freemasons - and for all I know, lizard-men from Planet Zogg ...

Jewish-Zionist-Islamist. Maybe the EU is in there somewhere too, the blackguards.

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Zionist sympathisers are alright. It's those muslim-loving, Hamas supporting anti-Zionists that are the problem. Shipping all the Jews off to Israel is good, it stops them polluting our pure Christian culture.

Few Orthodox Christians are going to say good things about Zionism, given what our co-religionists have suffered at the hands of Israel. The fact that they are now suffering under radical Muslims doesn't undo that.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Help me out here - more than 70% of Finns are in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, with around 1% in the Finnish Orthodox Church.

Last time I looked, the Lutheran Church was a protestant Evangelical church - and Ad Orientem has stated that western Protestant Christians are the same as liberal secularists - which AO believes are bad.

But then AO says he would now vote for a Christian socialist party.

Isn't it likely that a Finnish Christian socialist party would be largely made up of Lutheran Christians, and wouldn't he therefore be voting for western secularists?

Hush! There you go being logical and working out the conclusions of contradictory premises. Ad Racialpuritum doesn't do that logic thing.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The principle of not nicking other people's countries is in everybody's interest.

Tell this to the USA and UK re Iraq.
And this is relevant to this conversation HOW? Look, I was a vocal opponent to Dubya's war throughout it, but this is really off-topic.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
We could save a load lots of money if we left as this article (in Finnish) suggests.

Let me get this right. You have a position that you wish to support. And, the best you could manage is an article that no one else here can read? Really? You thought that was a good idea? Really?

Just when I was thinking you couldn't demonstrate a lower level of intelligence you do just that. I read somewhere on the internet that Finns are the closest relations to cro-magnon. But, cro-magnons managed to make functional tools, so clearly were more intelligent than the one example of Finnish intelligence we've been honoured to experience.

And how exactly would I get the same article in English?
Two options immediately spring to mind.

One, the arguments you seem to be expounding about the problems of the EU are not unique to Finland. Find one of the innumerable anti-EU blogs, websites, newspapers in the UK which will be filled with more bunkum about the evils of Brussels than you can possibly need.

Two, actually tell us what the problems are. Paraphrase parts of Finnish articles if you like (think of it as an equivalent to "provide a translation" if you actually post something not in English).

But, mainly tell us what you think and why. We don't need links to places where other people say what they think, whether they're in English or not. This a discussion board where we respond to what other members post, not Facebook hitting "like" on random pictures of cats.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Zionist sympathisers are alright. It's those muslim-loving, Hamas supporting anti-Zionists that are the problem. Shipping all the Jews off to Israel is good, it stops them polluting our pure Christian culture.

Few Orthodox Christians are going to say good things about Zionism, given what our co-religionists have suffered at the hands of Israel. The fact that they are now suffering under radical Muslims doesn't undo that.

Sorry, I should have asked to borrow the irony meter.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sorry, I should have asked to borrow the irony meter.

I knew you were being ironic, but I couldn't tell exactly which side of the "Orthodox love Israel" line you were coming down on. I misread. Sorry about that.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And how exactly would I get the same article in English?

If you can't, tough. That's your problem.

I'm rather amused by the possibility that your media intake is SO nationalist and insular there are no English-language versions available.

[ 24. September 2015, 14:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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SvitlanaV2, your comments and links are way too sensible for Hell - and for Ad Orienteeringgonewrong.

I doubt he'll look them up or consider them.

He has neither the intelligence, the emotional capacity nor the inclination.

Meanwhile, I'm grateful to mr cheesy for the stats on religious observance in Finland. I knew the Finnish Orthodox Church was fairly small but not that tiny in comparison with those nefarious, nasty liberal Lutherans ...

To what extent is the Finnish Lutheran Church 'evangelical' in the UK or US sense of the term?

In Germany and other mainland European countries 'evangelical' is simply a name for Protestant - it doesn't mean that they hold to Bebbington's Quadrilaterals.

The Lutheran Church in Sweden contains hardly any evangelicals at all from what I can gather - at least not in the way that we would understand the term here.

The Scandinavian Protestant churches are probably among the most liberal on the planet and make the liberal wing of the US Episcopalian Church look positively conservative ...

So perhaps that might explain Ad Orkwardox's contention that all Protestants are liberal secularists in disguise ...

If he grew up in a highly conservative RC background in London's East End and then converted to an even more conservative form of Orthodoxy then the chances are he won't have come across that many Protestants - other than on these boards.

Or the 70% of his neighbours who, nominally at least, are adherents of the Finnish Lutheran Church.

I'm told that Finland is one of the most secularised countries in Europe and it's on the list of countries/regions that might be among the first where Christianity might actually 'die-out' first. Wales is another, incidentally - having gone from being one of the most religious parts of the UK to one of the most secular within a few generations.

Ireland's going through that same process very rapidly as we speak. It'll be even less Roman Catholic by the time I've finished typing this sentence.

So, perhaps there are grounds for Ad Orientem's paranoia.

'They have killed the prophets and I am the only one left ...'

Or perhaps that's got nothing to do with it. It might just be that he's a twat.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Gamaliel, come over here and gnaw my leg off.

It'll save time, and I'm willing to sacrifice myself for the rest of the herd.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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I'm on my way ...

(munch, munch ...)

Meanwhile, I take Mousethief's point, the State of Israel hasn't exactly treated Palestinian Christians any better than Palestinian Muslims ...

But it's not as if they've been given a good object lesson in Christian toleration and treatment of Jewish people is it?

It would be unfair to single out those fine, upstanding Orthodox Christians of Holy Russia who burned synagogues and massacred Jewish men, women and children ... because Western Christianity has also been guilty of anti-Semitic enormities. It's far too easy to say, 'Well, the Nazis weren't proper Christians ...' because they were drawing on a back-catalogue of anti-Semitism dating way, way back ...

I wonder if Ad Orientem's celebration of Europe's Christian heritage would include excusing (or celebrating) the pogroms, treating the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' not as a forgery but as fact and generally condoning reprehensible behaviour on the part of the Crusaders (other than when they sacked Constantinople) and anyone else whose example we might cringe at?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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I think it is probably true that the Scandinavian Lutheran churches are all very liberal (from what I read, the Finnish church recently had a major split due to a DH topic).

But I think this just goes to show how crap the definitions of Evangelicalism actually are - otherwise we are left with the idea that a church which calls itself the
quote:
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
actually isn't.

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arse

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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

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I thought Ad Absurdam was originally CofE, then swam the Tiber, then the Volga (or whatever it is) - a fairly common trajectory for those of a conservative bent with a knack of discovering that in any given parade they are the only one marching in step.
How long will it be before he bcomes an Old Believer, then an Old Old Believer (do they exist? They will if he goes on like this) and so on and so on until he has convinced himself that he is the only actual Christian remaining on earth. Then he will sit out the rest of his days in splendid isolation denouncing the backsliding ways of the rest of us.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Also on the repeated claims of potential benefits from leaving the EU: the fact is that countries in Europe outside of the EU still keep most of the EU rules because of the benefits. Like Norway.

Cutting all of the ties with the EU would mean a sudden loss of the major market.

Also Finland signed the UN Refugee Convention 1951 (and other international conventions), so being outside of the EU would make bugger all difference to their responsibilities to look after refugees.

As in the UK, nationalistic politicians are saying a lot of bollocks about costs and potential benefits of being independent from the EU - but the reality is that, at least in terms of refugees, it would make no difference. You still wouldn't be able to refuse refugees because they were Muslims.

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arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

How long will it be before he bcomes an Old Believer, then an Old Old Believer (do they exist? They will if he goes on like this) and so on and so on until he has convinced himself that he is the only actual Christian remaining on earth. Then he will sit out the rest of his days in splendid isolation denouncing the backsliding ways of the rest of us.

Oh I don't know, I always thought the Fedoseevtsy and other OB sounded quite fun.

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arse

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:

In the urban context where I live, however, this is not necessarily the case. It's not that the Muslims here are cocooned, but that the contact they may have with the kind of society you mention is not great, or not socially significant. Indeed, some scholars say that Muslims in some English communities have become less secular over time, as their numbers have increased along with social segregation, They haven't had to interact with the indigenous culture to the same extent, and the rate of marrying out has dropped, etc. They may also be from stricter and less educated cultural communities in their homelands.


Good. Who are these scholars, and where can I find their work?
Let me reiterate that neither I nor the commentators below are saying Muslims are inevitably radical fanatics or fundamentalists (my Muslim neighbour and her very successful children certainly aren't). That having been said, let me add to the list issues that might lead to or be sign of more intense Muslim identification rather than secularisation:

- global politics as a recruitment tool for fundamentalist ideas
- racism and/or Islamophobia in the West
- the increasing demand for and availability of separate Muslim schools
- poverty
- white flight
- the traditional British policy of celebrating or tolerating multiculturalism rather than emphasising assimilation/integration
- reinforcement of particular cultural practices when the Muslims in question mostly come from the same South Asian background
<snip>

Much more could be said, of course. I'm willing to post or look for more sources, but for now the above should provide enough food for comment if you're so inclined.

Thank you.
The following is from the first of the texts you linked to, from the executive summary:
quote:
We argue that the Government has to change its policy approach towards Muslims. It should stop emphasising difference and engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity.
So you might perhaps acknowledge that the solution being offered in that text at least is to offer Muslims the benefits of citizenship in secular society? And if this is reflected in future policy (even granting that is a big "if"), it would mean the increasing secularisation of Muslims, rather than the reverse?
I will keep reading, that is just a first response. But I'm not sure that one supports your ideas as unproblematically as you might think.

[ 24. September 2015, 15:54: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]

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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
You might perhaps acknowledge that the solution being offered in that text at least is to offer Muslims the benefits of citizenship in secular society? And if this is reflected in future policy (even granting that is a big "if"), it would mean the increasing secularisation of Muslims, rather than the reverse?
I will keep reading, that is just a first response. But I'm not sure that one supports your ideas as unproblematically as you might think.

I don't think I said anything about this topic being unproblematic! In fact it's quite complex. And, I did say that the texts I've chosen rightly attempt to be even-handed.

Certainly, there's a lot that the British government might do, if the political will is there (and also the money), although I'm not sure that secularisation, whether of Christians or Muslims, is entirely down to governmental agendas.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Putin annexed Crimea, if that action were consequencelss - what do you think the long term fall out is likely to be ? Has Finland not been invaded by Russia before ?

Crimea has nothing to do with us, but don't think the US and the EU are without blame. Yes, the Soviets invaded us in '39 but that is irrelevant to the situation today. The sanctions are significantly harming our economy and for what? American expansionism and Russophobia.
Back in February of this year, a bunch of Shipmates tried to show AO the dangers of this on a Hell thread that AO started. Didn't work. But makes for some...interesting...reading.

The pertinent part starts around here.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Back in February of this year, a bunch of Shipmates tried to show AO the dangers of this on a Hell thread that AO started. Didn't work. But makes for some...interesting...reading.

The pertinent part starts around here.

I'd forgotten that. Reading it again, plus this thread, makes me wonder if Ad Orientem is actually a wannabe Russian. Which is a damn weird thing for anyone to want to be, let alone a Finn. It's like a Scot wanting to be English.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's like a Scot wanting to be English.

The first thought popping in my head was "I think you find they're called Lowlanders. [Devil]
Seriously though, they do exist. The difference is they've no barriers from strolling down the road and becoming so.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's like a Scot wanting to be English.

The difference is they've no barriers from strolling down the road and becoming so.
Ah, but no true Scotsman would do that, so they would have been Sassenachs all along

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And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sorry, I should have asked to borrow the irony meter.

I knew you were being ironic, but I couldn't tell exactly which side of the "Orthodox love Israel" line you were coming down on. I misread. Sorry about that.
On that particular point I wasn't really aiming to come down on any particular side. But, as my engagement in Palestine threads over the years would make clear, my views of Zionism are not particularly positive. Because the results of, at least the more extreme versions of, Zionism has been a massive injustice inflicted on the people of Palestine - Christian and muslim alike.

Mainly I was aiming for a simple "AO is an idiot" line.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

Mainly I was aiming for a simple "AO is an idiot" line.

We've six pages on this thread alone that makes this a fairly clear and unambiguous conclusion.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I know. But, it's difficult to resist the temptation to point out the obvious when every thing he posts just produces another example to illustrate it.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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I read somewhere in the past few weeks that Putin already has a bit of Finland, an estate belonging to the Russian Presidency, on which some Finns trespassed to set up a gay bar, or something. Definitely considered offensive, anyway.
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169

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Hm, Ad Orientem hasn't replied since last night. I wonder if he had other plans, such as throwing rocks at refugee children.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Wow, re the rock-throwing story! And then there's the comment section...
[Eek!]

Reading the article, they've gotten a HUGE influx of refugees this year. Recently, they've gotten 500 people a *day* at just one border crossing with Sweden.

That would cause a lot of tension. I do not in any way, shape, or form defend mistreating immigrants. But I can see why people might be hugely uncomfortable, and even panic.

ETA: Thx for the link, Leaf.

[ 25. September 2015, 20:56: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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People suck in general, people in groups suck exponentially. God. Fuck everyone. [Disappointed]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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