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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Neoliberal bastards
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Here is the latest from the "Taxpayers'" Alliance, a group who basically object to the government spending money on anything except tax cuts.
So there's no point in giving benefits to people who will be dead before the next election? And everyone else will have forgotten what you did by then? And this is just a "practical" point?
I was going to post a rant, but I am too angry for words.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
My sympathies.
If I may ask, where does "neo-liberal" come into it? I know our US political terminology is different; but they'd be (neo-)conservatives here.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
I know this was mentioned in the OP, but this quote just took my breath away:
quote:
"The first of which will sound a little bit morbid - some of the people... won't be around to vote against you in the next election. So that's just a practical point, and the other point is they might have forgotten by then."
So it's fine to cut pensioners' benefits - half of 'em will be dead anyway by the next election, who cares about them? And the others - dotty old things, can't remember why they went upstairs, never mind who the current party of goverment is.
So all that counts, apparently, is not ensuring people are treated fairly and in line with their needs, but that you can make cuts and still get them to vote for you at the next election.
Just... just... the sheer... did they actually think... just
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Golden Key, I was using 'neoliberal' in the social science sense - defined by Wikipedia here.
Still, it's nice to know that Jeremy Corbyn's efforts to introduce more honesty into politics are having an effect. At least we know what we're voting for now.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
If I may ask, where does "neo-liberal" come into it? I know our US political terminology is different; but they'd be (neo-)conservatives here.
Neoliberal is generally a term for those who believe in absolutely free market economics. They are what Nobel Prize winning economist, Joseph Stiglitz, refers to as "free market fundamentalists".
Examples of this kind of neoliberalism stem from the Freidrich Hayek and Milton Friedman. Their pattern of thought then spawned Thatcherism and Reaganism, where any kind of regulation or control of the markets was seen as an inherently bad thing.
Neoconservatism is primarily about the use of militarism to achieve one's aims. So advocates of the use of air strikes to achieve regime change could generally be referred to as neoconservatives.
So neoliberals and neoconservatives aren't necessarily different people; just the same people wearing different hats, depending on whether they're talking economics or international affairs.
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
"Some of them won't be around ... ". Yeah, that's because they froze to death after cuts to their winter fuel allowance, you murdering bastards.
I hope they get home to find granny visiting, who proceeds to beat some sense into them with her walking stick.
Now, I'm a UK tax payer. Where do I sign up to join an alliance of tax payers who want the government to fund decent social and welfare services, fund decent state education, fund a health service we can be proud of, offer refuge to those fleeing wars we've partly instigated ...
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Where do I sign up to join an alliance of tax payers who want the government to fund decent social and welfare services, fund decent state education, fund a health service we can be proud of, offer refuge to those fleeing wars we've partly instigated ...
Here. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Yeah, well I had considered here as well.
But, I want something that claims to represent all UK taxpayers as suggested by a name like "Taxpayers Alliance". Whereas, of course, they should be called "Heartless, selfish bastards who aren't rich enough to offload all their income to offshore taxhavens Alliance".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
From the title, I thought it must have been posted by a member of UKIP or the Tea Party!
I like Alan's revised title for "The Taxpayers Alliance". A bit long for a poster. Liam Fox must have taken leave of his senses to share a platform with the emetic Alex Wild.
Looks like a "free hit" for Jeremy Corbyn. I suppose they just discount him. But more public stupidity like that could make that a mistake as well.
I expect Cameron to distance himself, rapidly, from the wild Mr Wild.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Barnabas: quote:
From the title, I thought it must have been posted by a member of UKIP or the Tea Party!
See you in Hell... oh wait, we're already here.
The use of 'neoliberalism' to describe extreme free-market fundamentalists is standard social science terminology. Since Kippers and TeaPartiers are anti-intellectual sociopaths I suppose it is not really surprising that they (mis) use the term as an insult for other people.
The title was inspired by the current 'Military Bastards' Hell thread.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
The Tax-Payers' Alliance are an interesting group. In the sense that for the most part they are not tax-payers and they certainly don't speak for most people who are.
Sadly they do have a loud voice and the (left-biased) BBC has a habit of asking them to comment on, well, anything. They were on BBC Radio 2 the other day telling junior doctors that they need to work evenings and weekends. Which is interesting as I'm reasonable sure that I work weekends and nights and evenings.
If the BBC could either stop inviting them on or ask them how much tax they pay it would be a significant improvement.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Lest we be tempted to distance what the TaxPayers' Alliance are saying from what's going on at the rest of the Conservative Party Conference, note that this foul initiative is being fronted by The Rt Hon Dr Liam Fox MP, former Tory Defence Secretary and Privy Councillor.
Dr Fox is or was also a GP (still a member of the Royal College of General Practitioners), which gives his apparently blasé attitude to the deaths and mental deterioration of older people just that added hint of nastiness.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
The Tax-Payers' Alliance are an interesting group. In the sense that for the most part they are not tax-payers and they certainly don't speak for most people who are.
Certain similarities to Christian Voice - not Christian and not speaking for most people who are. Fortunately CV has been blessedly silent for a while (I just checked, they do actually still exist).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
The Tax-Payers' Alliance are an interesting group. In the sense that for the most part they are not tax-payers and they certainly don't speak for most people who are.
Certain similarities to Christian Voice - not Christian and not speaking for most people who are. Fortunately CV has been blessedly silent for a while (I just checked, they do actually still exist).
The Taxpayers Alliance may be, um, interesting but it isn't a one man band like Christian Voice. AFAIK, Stephen Green is it.
Liam Fox on the other hand has been Secretary of State for Defence, so he must know about some of the most inefficient projects of all time. If defence procurement was reformed rather than being a cosy carve up between contractors, civil servants and those who specify requirements (and constantly change them), the Tories wouldn't have to choose who to kill with welfare cuts.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The Taxpayers Alliance may be, um, interesting but it isn't a one man band like Christian Voice. AFAIK, Stephen Green is it.
True, they managed to get five men (and, they are all men) behind that table. That would probably be the entire membership of CV. Especially since Greens wife divorced him (perhaps he should hook up with Kim Davis, they'd make such a great team campaigning on the virtues of Christian marriage).
But, that's just a matter of scale. Half dozen bastards or one, it's not much different. Though, as the TPA have aspirations of having the ear of government (which Green could never dream of) they are in a greater position to screw with the nation.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
There is something over 10 million people over 65 in the UK. Even if some tens of thousands die or become amnesiac in then next 4 years, that's a lot of us still alive and in possession of our marbles. And our votes.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
There is something over 10 million people over 65 in the UK. Even if some tens of thousands die or become amnesiac in then next 4 years, that's a lot of us still alive and in possession of our marbles. And our votes.
Oh, for a "like" button!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
There is something over 10 million people over 65 in the UK. Even if some tens of thousands die or become amnesiac in then next 4 years, that's a lot of us still alive and in possession of our marbles. And our votes.
Which makes it all the more incredible that they would come out with something like this - particularly as, I think I'm right in saying, people over 65 not only vote but are more likely to do so than other age groups.
So, apparently they're cruel, heartless - and stupid.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
cruel, heartless - and stupid.
Why don't the Tories just cut to the chase and make that their party motto?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
cruel, heartless - and stupid.
Why don't the Tories just cut to the chase and make that their party motto?
Oh for a like button...
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
cruel, heartless - and stupid.
Why don't the Tories just cut to the chase and make that their party motto?
What? You expect honesty from politicians?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
My local t-shirt printing shop has shut. I want one with their name crossed out and "I PAY TAX. NOT IN MY NAME" on it.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Which makes it all the more incredible that they would come out with something like this - particularly as, I think I'm right in saying, people over 65 not only vote but are more likely to do so than other age groups.
The point made is quite correct - if you are to cut the winter fuel payment, now is the strategically correct time to cut it.
This is different from the question "should the winter fuel payment be cut"?
(Although I'm generally not a fan of micromanaging benefit payment, my gut tells me that having a smaller payment in the summer and a larger one in the winter is better than having an equally-sized one all year round.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
There is something over 10 million people over 65 in the UK. Even if some tens of thousands die or become amnesiac in then next 4 years, that's a lot of us still alive and in possession of our marbles. And our votes.
Which makes it all the more incredible that they would come out with something like this - particularly as, I think I'm right in saying, people over 65 not only vote but are more likely to do so than other age groups.
So, apparently they're cruel, heartless - and stupid.
According to this from Ipsos - MORI far more older people vote Conservative than for any other party.
The "Grey vote" is very powerful and the only group who turn out as reliably are in the AB social class, who are also more likely to vote Conservative.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
My sympathies.
If I may ask, where does "neo-liberal" come into it? I know our US political terminology is different; but they'd be (neo-)conservatives here.
No, they wouldn't. Those terms are not equivalents, although there is overlap. As Sipech has explained.
US Academic Wendy Brown has written quite a lot on the poison that is neoliberalism. There is no simple definition for what is a complicated phenomenon, but one of the main characteristics of neoliberalism is the extension of market rationality into areas of life that are not economic. It also corrupts laissez-faire economics itself, which is predicated on the idea that there should be small to no government and that the market should be free to operate with as few restrictions as possible. What has happened as a result of neiliberal "rationality" (a contradiction in terms of ever there was one) is that the state actually becomes an agent of the market - and, as you can imagine, quickly becomes an agent of powerful players within the market. Public goods - health, education (especially the universities), social services as mentioned in the OP - are stripped away or compelled to compete as if they were businesses in an economy. This is supposed to render these public goods "efficient" - that word again - but usually leaves them underfunded and unviable.
It's a very troubling phenomenon, and one that is entirely incompatible with the imminent environmental crisis.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
There is something over 10 million people over 65 in the UK. Even if some tens of thousands die or become amnesiac in then next 4 years, that's a lot of us still alive and in possession of our marbles. And our votes.
There a queue of us waiting to join too.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Only someone who has no belief in social structures could be idiotic enough to forget that those who die before the next election will have others who grieve and remember them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Dr Fox is or was also a GP (still a member of the Royal College of General Practitioners), which gives his apparently blasé attitude to the deaths and mental deterioration of older people just that added hint of nastiness.
He used to be my MP (about 6 years ago), apparently he was a fairly good doctor before he went into politics, I wonder what happened
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Barnabas: quote:
From the title, I thought it must have been posted by a member of UKIP or the Tea Party!
See you in Hell... oh wait, we're already here.
The use of 'neoliberalism' to describe extreme free-market fundamentalists is standard social science terminology. Since Kippers and TeaPartiers are anti-intellectual sociopaths I suppose it is not really surprising that they (mis) use the term as an insult for other people.
The title was inspired by the current 'Military Bastards' Hell thread.
Sorry Jane R. My bad.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
My sympathies.
If I may ask, where does "neo-liberal" come into it? I know our US political terminology is different; but they'd be (neo-)conservatives here.
No, they wouldn't. Those terms are not equivalents, although there is overlap. As Sipech has explained.
US Academic Wendy Brown has written quite a lot on the poison that is neoliberalism. There is no simple definition for what is a complicated phenomenon, but one of the main characteristics of neoliberalism is the extension of market rationality into areas of life that are not economic. It also corrupts laissez-faire economics itself, which is predicated on the idea that there should be small to no government and that the market should be free to operate with as few restrictions as possible. What has happened as a result of neiliberal "rationality" (a contradiction in terms of ever there was one) is that the state actually becomes an agent of the market - and, as you can imagine, quickly becomes an agent of powerful players within the market. Public goods - health, education (especially the universities), social services as mentioned in the OP - are stripped away or compelled to compete as if they were businesses in an economy. This is supposed to render these public goods "efficient" - that word again - but usually leaves them underfunded and unviable.
It's a very troubling phenomenon, and one that is entirely incompatible with the imminent environmental crisis.
Yeah, that summarises my understanding of it too. I do have reservations about the use of the term though. It's shifted from where it was in the days of Milton Friedman etc. Whatever you think of their nostrums, they undoubtedly carried a genuine concern for the freedom of the individual. Modern neoliberalism has morphed away from that. You cannot consider any class of people sold to raw globalization as having much consideration for the individual any longer. There's now a market fetishism in there that insulates it from rational discourse concerning things like limits.
But the worry I have as "neoliberal" tries to keep pace with all of this is that it will become such an all-embracing term as to be technically worthless, except as a general insult.
(If you want to see the difference between classical liberalism and neoliberal thought, try reading Adam Smith on the need for regulation of banks.)
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Only someone who has no belief in social structures could be idiotic enough to forget that those who die before the next election will have others who grieve and remember them.
This struck me when I read it too. Not everyone votes solely to benefit themselves. I have no children but would vote for a party that had child friendly policies.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Thanks for the explanations about "neo-liberal". Much of it is over my head, so I've mentally filed it as "economics term that's different than my usual political meaning of 'liberal'".
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I'm not sure that the Taxpayers Alliance view is necessarily more cynical than the policies it is critiquing, namely that we should cut support to every other vulnerable group in society because they don't vote but leave pensioners alone because they do ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Only someone who has no belief in social structures could be idiotic enough to forget that those who die before the next election will have others who grieve and remember them.
OTOH, if you are greedy and selfish, and for the time being well-off, "social structures" are something for other people.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Ricardus: quote:
I'm not sure that the Taxpayers Alliance view is necessarily more cynical than the policies it is critiquing, namely that we should cut support to every other vulnerable group in society because they don't vote but leave pensioners alone because they do ...
You think they approve of maintaining benefits for others? I doubt it. Judging by their past performances they heartily approve of cutting benefits for children, the disabled and the unemployed and are encouraging the government to add pensioners to their hit-list.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Barnabas62: quote:
Sorry Jane R. My bad.
Apology accepted
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I'm not sure that the Taxpayers Alliance view is necessarily more cynical than the policies it is critiquing, namely that we should cut support to every other vulnerable group in society because they don't vote but leave pensioners alone because they do ...
I agree. In fact, I'd say they were being fairly honest.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
You think they approve of maintaining benefits for others? I doubt it. Judging by their past performances they heartily approve of cutting benefits for children, the disabled and the unemployed and are encouraging the government to add pensioners to their hit-list.
I agree - I suppose I'm saying they're being nasty in a principled rather than an opportunistic way.
(To put it another way: the logic of the Tory position ought to be that some pensioners, as well as unemployed people, are freeloading off the taxpayer insofar as they're getting benefits they don't need. But the Tories are happy to facilitate and connive in such welfare scrounging because pensioners vote for them.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Pensioners pay income tax on their pensions. Everyone pays VAT when they go shopping, including my 12-year-old daughter who bought a new toy with her pocket money on Saturday. Talking as if only people who are currently working are entitled to benefit from government spending (and to begrudge every penny spent on someone else) is at best disingenuous.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
There's an interesting sleight of terminology that was pointed out to me the other day. I think I'd come across it before, but had largely forgotten it.
When it's something that the government wants to promote and is thought of as a good thing, it's funded by government investment.
When it's something that the government dislikes and wishes to cut back on, it's funded by taxpayers' money.
Look out for this and what sections of the press echo this deliberate use of leading terms.
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Pensioners pay income tax on their pensions. Everyone pays VAT when they go shopping, including my 12-year-old daughter who bought a new toy with her pocket money on Saturday. Talking as if only people who are currently working are entitled to benefit from government spending (and to begrudge every penny spent on someone else) is at best disingenuous.
Was that a response to my post? I've not expressed any opinion on whether benefit cuts are justified or not. But if one does think they are justified, I can't see any principled reason to exclude pensioners.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Thanks for the explanations about "neo-liberal". Much of it is over my head, so I've mentally filed it as "economics term that's different than my usual political meaning of 'liberal'".
That's because Americans don't know what 'liberal' means.
Kinda ironic in the land of the free but what can you do?
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Yes, actually it was, because you seem to have swallowed the line that 'pensioners' and 'taxpayers' are two different groups. They are not mutually exclusive categories.
[x-post - that was a reply to Ricardus as well]
[ 06. October 2015, 15:38: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Yes, actually it was, because you seem to have swallowed the line that 'pensioners' and 'taxpayers' are two different groups. They are not mutually exclusive categories.
[x-post - that was a reply to Ricardus as well]
Yep. It suits some to conflate 'tax-payer' with 'income tax-payer.'
According to the ONS the poorest fifth of households pay 37.8 per cent of their income in tax in 2013/14, compared with 34.8 per cent for the richest fifth.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
There's an interesting sleight of terminology that was pointed out to me the other day. I think I'd come across it before, but had largely forgotten it.
When it's something that the government wants to promote and is thought of as a good thing, it's funded by government investment.
When it's something that the government dislikes and wishes to cut back on, it's funded by taxpayers' money.
Look out for this and what sections of the press echo this deliberate use of leading terms.
Yes. It's the same for local Councils. If they want to (say) fund a local park, they'll say that they are "investing in local amenities". If they want to be shot of it, it's "an unsustainable drain on resources".
I can see it in the railways too. What used to be routine "repairs and renewals" is now publicised as "investment for the future" - when that term should really be reserved for new lines and stations.
As a matter of interest, the media often talk of "the taxpayer". He or she is presumably the person who does (or doesn't) spend money shopping on "the High Street" - wherever that might be.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Yes, actually it was, because you seem to have swallowed the line that 'pensioners' and 'taxpayers' are two different groups. They are not mutually exclusive categories.
[x-post - that was a reply to Ricardus as well]
Yep. It suits some to conflate 'tax-payer' with 'income tax-payer.'
According to the ONS the poorest fifth of households pay 37.8 per cent of their income in tax in 2013/14, compared with 34.8 per cent for the richest fifth.
AFZ
It might not be immediately obvious but the marginal tax rates differ too. Because so many benefits are means tested, a pay increase caused by "working harder" as the government loves to put it can easily result in a family being worse off! I remember that happening to us back in 2001 when I started work after a few months unemployed. It wasn't a badly paid job either. I'm sure that with benefit cuts and a cap overall, things are worse now.
If you're on £80k however and you earn an extra thousand, you'll get an extra £580 per year in your wages (deductions of 40% tax + 2% NI).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Yes, actually it was, because you seem to have swallowed the line that 'pensioners' and 'taxpayers' are two different groups. They are not mutually exclusive categories.
[x-post - that was a reply to Ricardus as well]
If you mean that putting 'the logic of the Tory position' in front of a description of the Tory position, and using adjectives like 'nasty' and 'cynical', doesn't make it sufficiently clear that I'm describing the Tory position and not my own, then I suppose yes, that's a fair comment.
Otherwise I don't know what you mean. I'm not disputing that pensioners like everyone else pay tax, but I don't see why that would exempt them from cuts.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Fair enough, Ricardus.
I suppose this is what right-wing social engineering looks like; survival of the richest.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
Can I declare an interest? I'm 70 and comfortably off. In my youth I always felt that "the elderly" (aka "the old folk") were a group like the disabled or the unemployed who we were expected to feel sorry for, albeit in a rather patronising way. But that doesn't seem to apply as much now. At least not in my case.
However, all my pensions were funded at least in part by my own contributions and I paid (and still pay) a lot of tax. I also saved for my retirement. I suppose I was a Wise Virgin (metaphorically). So why should I be means tested?
The only benefit I'd withdraw is the £10 Christmas bonus, which is too small to help individuals much, but the millions spent on it could better be directed elsewhere.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It's interesting Anglicano, the differences age cohorts mean. The economists I know tell me that coming of age and getting a job during a recession can taint someone's career and lower their lifetime earnings.
I'm a few years younger than you, completing my third university degree, a PhD in the 1980s. The interest rates on home mortgages were 15 to 17% per year. There was freeze on health, university and government hiring. It took about a decade to put things right with the economy. I did manage to get some contract work, no benefits, no guaranteed hours etc, two babies, really really difficult.
I decided to go into business and did very well, which I attribute to personality and luck. With luck being more significant than I usually like to admit. It made me understand how taking a single risk - self employment - meant everything to later success. All of those I came of age with are doing okay now, but those a decade older and a decade younger are directing their work units versus the drone-worker bee role of those who couldn't shine brightly enough during a severe recession. They lag behind in success and money and were penalized due to no fault of their own.
I should be rights be rather conservative and Conservative. But the party I voted for yesterday in the advance poll in Canada's federal election (19 Oct), if elected, will cost me some tens of thousands of dollars in corporate and personal tax, but they'll also fund universal $15/day daycare among other socially progressive things.
So you should be means tested Anglicano, because you can afford it, and should I. Others cannot afford it, and because of your luck, not just your prudence, you actually owe the society that facilitated your success. So do I. -- we could also discuss the tax laws that allow corporations to avoid large tax bills, but that's another subject.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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