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Source: (consider it) Thread: Motoring Git of the Year Award 2015
Ricardus
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# 8757

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Very odd - there was recently a similar case here which is being prosecuted as murder. I cannot see any difference between the two cases unless killing a police officer is somehow seen as worse (killing one of our own, perhaps).

[Cp'd with Marvin - that does make a bit more sense.]

[ 13. January 2016, 16:04: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

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Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How can driving deliberately at someone and killing them be merely causing death by dangerous driving?

I suspect the key reasoning behind it is the fact that he had already been tried and found guilty of causing serious injury by dangerous driving in relation to the incident, and was awaiting sentencing when the cyclist died. The courts couldn't try him for murder at the main trial because the cyclist wasn't dead, and they couldn't do it afterwards because of double jeopardy. All they could do was change the "serious injury" part to "death".

Even so, the sentence handed down does seem unusually lenient.

The original charge was wrong. He should never have been charged with a motoring offence but rather under offences against the person - the fact he used a car as his weapon is barely relevant.

This happens far too often; deliberately aggressive dangerous driving charged as a motoring offence instead of what it actually is - assault, ABH, GBH, murder. He should have been charged with GBH in the first place which would have in the normal course of events be upgraded to murder on the death of the victim.

The message sent out needs to be that driving deliberately close to people to scare them is no different to smashing a bottle on the bar and threatening someone with it.

[ 14. January 2016, 09:56: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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One thing arguing against that is the fact that the courts can only ban someone from driving if convicted for a motoring offence. If he'd been charged with GBH he'd have been completely free to jump straight back behind the wheel the moment he was released. This way, on release he faced a two-year ban followed by a mandatory retest before he could drive again.

The fact that the cyclist died after the trial does mean the comparison between upgraded charges is a lot greater. But what was the CPS to do - put off charging the driver until they knew if he was going to pull through or not? Some people stay in comas for years, and prosecutions are best done as quickly as possible - witness memories fade, interest wanes, and it's generally seen as a bad thing to keep the accused in custody or on bail (not to mention banned from driving) for so long without trial.

You can argue that these laws or their sentencing guidelines should be different, and you'd have a fair case. I for one think the sentencing guideline for serious injury/death by dangerous driving should be closer to that for GBH/murder (or at least manslaughter). But it seems to me that under the laws that actually exist and with the knowledge they actually had at the time the CPS prosecuted this case as best it could.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
One thing arguing against that is the fact that the courts can only ban someone from driving if convicted for a motoring offence.

Firstly, that can be changed.

Secondly, I'd quite happily see a charge sheet for GBH and dangerous driving.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
One thing arguing against that is the fact that the courts can only ban someone from driving if convicted for a motoring offence.

Firstly, that can be changed.
Of course it can, but not retrospectively. Which makes all the difference when we're talking about whether the actual charge in a specific case was correct rather than what the hypothetical charge for a similar case should be.

quote:
Secondly, I'd quite happily see a charge sheet for GBH and dangerous driving.
Or even GBH by dangerous driving, to go with all the "by beating", "by stabbing", etc. versions there already are.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Not taken by the latter option. This is primarily an offence of violence, not a motoring offence - and I think that's my major beef with this. The fact it was a motor vehicle that was the weapon of choice means that other motoring offences might have also been committed, but it wasn't poor driving that killed the victim; it was a deliberate act intended to cause him serious harm.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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Well, GBH is GBH regardless of the method used - the "by" parts just define what the method was, with slightly different sentencing guidelines for each to reflect the level of severity and premeditation. The advantage of adding a "by dangerous driving" option would be that the sentencing for that option could include a driving ban as well as the custodial time.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Sioni Sais
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I have a vague recollection that these offences like "Causing death by dangerous driving" have their origin in the 1920's when it was nearly impossible to get a jury to convict a wayward motorist for manslaughter. The story I have heard was that the qualifications for jury service hadn't been updated along with those for voting. The effect was that juries tended to feel sympathetic for the motorist, who was likely to be not unlike themselves, so alternative offences, with lesser sentences, were introduced.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

This happens far too often; deliberately aggressive dangerous driving charged as a motoring offence instead of what it actually is - assault, ABH, GBH, murder.

It's easier to get a conviction for a driving offense, though. You can convict someone for dangerous driving if the driving was dangerous, regardless of intent. To convict him of assault for driving aggressively at someone, you'd need to prove that his aggression was intentional, rather than just crap driving.

I agree with you in principle, but suspect that prosecutors just go for the easy win.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I agree with you in principle, but suspect that prosecutors just go for the easy win.

A charge with a tariff of 14 years is not an 'easy win'.

Much, if not all, of the blame lies with the sentencing judge, who gave the guilty party 4 years for an act that was deliberate, even if spur-of-the-moment. If he'd handed down 10+ years, then we'd probably feel that justice had at least had a look in.

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Forward the New Republic

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
To convict him of assault for driving aggressively at someone, you'd need to prove that his aggression was intentional

Actually, I can confirm from personal experience that an assault doesn't have to be intentional. "Reckless" is good enough for a conviction.

Whether that remains true for the more serious versions of the crime (ABH/GBH/manslaughter/murder) I don't know.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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BroJames
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# 9636

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IIRC ABH and GBH can be founded on a recklessness as to harm, and manslaughter can be founded on an unlawful and dangerous act which is objectively likely to cause harm. Murder, however, requires intention to kill or to cause GBH.
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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Sometimes the motoring gits get arrested, and end up behind baas.

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Pigwidgeon

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Since this is Arizona, rear ending another car isn't enough -- pull out your gun and shoot the person you just ran into.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Penny S
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# 14768

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sometimes the motoring gits get arrested, and end up behind baas.

I found the puns excruciating!

But rather impressed that the car stopped for the sheep.

[ 22. January 2016, 20:06: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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An honorary mention for the utter tit this evening who decided that the time to move back into the left-hand lane of the dual carriageway was just as they reached an on-slip, with a string of cars trying to get on. Having someone suddenly cross lanes apparently hell-bent on T-boning you is not fun.

AG

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Wesley J

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# 6075

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sometimes the motoring gits get arrested, and end up behind baas.

I found the puns excruciating!

But rather impressed that the car stopped for the sheep.

Yes, glad they didn't die(-in-the-wool). In fact, the ovines clearly put the wool over the offenders' eyes in this case.

Frankly, I quite liked the puns, me, apparently unlike ewe.

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Penny S
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I didn't say I didn't like them! Things can be excruciatingly funny, IMO.
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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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In Canada it is your God given right as a pedestrian to walk across a road and expect the traffic to stop for you, regardless of the laws of physics and the predictable blindness and distractedness of most drivers. The man in the next bed in the hospital the other day had decided to cross at a 'Stop' sign, expecting the oncoming driver to stop. She didn't, and it took the orthopaedic surgeon four hours to put his leg back together. I know it was his right to cross the road and he won't be found at fault, but couldn't he have hesitated a few moments, just to make sure?

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Al Eluia

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How about the guy in North Carolina who shot and killed one of three people who tried to help him after he spun out on an icy road?

News story

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Rocinante
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# 18541

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The walking turd that did this:

BBC news

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Rocinante
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# 18541

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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
The walking turd that did this:

BBC news

And as a follow up our fucking useless police and CPS (Criminal Protection Service) who won't even prosecute when someone's been filmed trying to murder someone else.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I'm reasonably certain they could have interrogated the named drivers' mobile phones for a geolocation. Instead, we have a potential murderer let back out on the streets with a shrug.

Good work, police!

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Forward the New Republic

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
And as a follow up our fucking useless police and CPS (Criminal Protection Service) who won't even prosecute when someone's been filmed trying to murder someone else.

No, a car has been filmed ramming a cyclist in an apparently deliberate manner, and then driving off. As far as I can see from the video, at no point does it show the person who was driving said car, or what they were actually doing when the incident occurred. Which is the whole fucking reason why they can't prosecute.

Every now and then "innocent until proven guilty" is a principle that really sucks, but I for one am quite glad that we have it.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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On the other hand, the person liable for penalty charge notices is the registered owner of the vehicle (or, the person who signed the documentation for a hire car). If they can not prove that someone else was driving the car then they will receive the fine and points for whatever the offense was. The owner is assumed guilty until they prove their innocence.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If they can not prove that someone else was driving the car then they will receive the fine and points for whatever the offense was.

Only for summary offences, which is what happened - the hirer of the car has been fined and given 6 penalty points for failure to give details of who was driving at the time.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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But considering a man was severely injured in a potentially lethal assault, and the police whittled it down to two suspects, you'd think they'd go the extra mile and question them, check their alibis and you know, do some detective work, rather than throwing up their hands: "Neither of them will admit to being the driver! Our investigative powers have been rendered useless by such cunning and novel tactics!"

Ten minutes and their mobile phone records would be all I need.

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Forward the New Republic

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Pigwidgeon

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Not everyone carries a mobile phone. That's my "cunning and novel tactic."
[Razz]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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It only needs one of them. That's mine.

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Forward the New Republic

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But considering a man was severely injured in a potentially lethal assault, and the police whittled it down to two suspects, you'd think they'd go the extra mile and question them, check their alibis and you know, do some detective work

What makes you think they didn't spend the fifteen months between the incident and now doing exactly that? If evidence doesn't exist (or has been destroyed) then no amount of detective work is going to find it.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But considering a man was severely injured in a potentially lethal assault, and the police whittled it down to two suspects, you'd think they'd go the extra mile and question them, check their alibis and you know, do some detective work, rather than throwing up their hands: "Neither of them will admit to being the driver! Our investigative powers have been rendered useless by such cunning and novel tactics!"

Ten minutes and their mobile phone records would be all I need.

Near our way a cyclist was killed on a main road. The police had his helmet, with stickers still on it showing his number in a recent Audax. They still couldn't identify him. It was another local cyclist who took the Audax number, contacted the organiser and got the name. The police hadn't got the nous to do that.

I have little confidence in their detective abilities, especially where dead and injured cyclists are concerned.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Rocinante
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# 18541

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The driver was either the hirer of the car or someone known to him/her (as the car was not reported stolen.) If the hirer is contending that he was not the driver, but will not say who the actual driver was, then surely he could be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice?
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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
The driver was either the hirer of the car or someone known to him/her (as the car was not reported stolen.) If the hirer is contending that he was not the driver, but will not say who the actual driver was, then surely he could be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice?

According to the article, they traced the car to a man and a woman. It's entirely within the bounds of possibility that they were a husband and wife, and UK law states that nobody can be forced to testify against their spouse. I imagine, though of course I may be wrong, that that is why charges for perverting the course of justice were not pressed.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What makes you think they didn't spend the fifteen months between the incident and now doing exactly that? If evidence doesn't exist (or has been destroyed) then no amount of detective work is going to find it.

What makes me think that?

Because I am intimately acquainted with police procedure, and just how little they're prepared to do to get rid of a case. That there has been a result - someone has been prosecuted for the minor infraction of refusing to identify the driver - is the result. That it is the wrong result for public safety is by-the-by.

If it had been the chief constable on his bike, pound to a penny there'd be someone serving 5 years right now.

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Forward the New Republic

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Rocinante
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# 18541

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Anyway, now we know: if you want to kill someone, hire a car, preferably from someone who doesn't actually own it. Make sure that your partner and a couple of mates are on the documents. Mow down your victim, drive off and when Inspector Plod comes calling, say "you can't prove it was me what done it, you got nuffink on me copper, nuffink."

[ 03. February 2016, 16:38: Message edited by: Rocinante ]

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Anyway, now we know: if you want to kill someone, hire a car, preferably from someone who doesn't actually own it. Make sure that your partner and a couple of mates are on the documents. Mow down your victim, drive off and when Inspector Plod comes calling, say "you can't prove it was me what done it, you got nuffink on me copper, nuffink."

Notes this for future reference.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Anyway, now we know: if you want to kill someone, hire a car, preferably from someone who doesn't actually own it. Make sure that your partner and a couple of mates are on the documents. Mow down your victim, drive off and when Inspector Plod comes calling, say "you can't prove it was me what done it, you got nuffink on me copper, nuffink."

And leave your mobile phone at home.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Macrina
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# 8807

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My favourite one recently...

I am a lifelong cyclist. I can't drive (I am a bit car phobic to be honest) so I commute too and from work by bike.

I ride every morning down a busy road with a cycle lane and I thought I knew the bits where I have to keep as hard left as possible because drivers drift into it all the time.

Nope.

There's a bit of the road where to turn left you have to turn from the straight ahead lane, across the cycle lane and into a very short merge lane. It's right on a junction so I am used to watching ahead of me for cars turning out of the traffic queue once they get there and going briefly across my path.

This absolute fuckwit was about 7 cars back from where he would be able to do this, decided he was sick of waiting for the lights to turn and pulled out without indicating and drove DOWN THE FUCKING CYCLE LANE. If this wasn't bad enough he did this when I was basically half a car length behind him going at a pretty good clip. Lucky for me my brakes and reflexes are good or I'd have slammed into the back of him.

I had no where to go but the pavement so did so, regained my balance and then had a rather satisfying fifteen seconds of telling him what a stupid fucking twat he was as he looked gormlessly and cluelessly out the window at me.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I had an experience walking home this evening. There is a road that had been frequently used as a rat run, so they've put in restrictions, at points along the road it narrows to one lane with right of way alternating down the road. And, at each of these restrictions there is a pedestrian crossing. So, I get to one of these to cross the road with traffic from the right having right of way. There are 5-6 cars to my left, and a few cars coming from the right. The front car to my right stops and the driver waves me across the road (there still are some decent drivers out there). I started across the road, only to realise the first car on my left is moving towards me - ignoring the fact that he is now third in line for right of way after me and the cars on my right. It was a good thing it wasn't the morning when that section of road had been icy or I might not have found hurrying off the road as easy.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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But Macrina, you know a cycle lane isn't just for cyclists. It's really there for fuckwit motorists in a hurry.

Huia
[Mad]

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Fucking hell, if you want to find out how bestial the human race is, have yourself an asthma attack on a one lane coastal road in the middle of a crashing El Nino torrent, at nightfall. Because easing off the accelerator the tiniest bit is grounds for psychotic, vengeful tailgating, no matter what the weather is.

(To give you an idea, the rain was coming so hard and fast my fastest wiper setting did nothing to effect visibility. It was freaking terrifying.)

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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An oldie, but a goodie yesterday.

Heading into Glasgow for a meeting in the afternoon, to find myself behind a driver who thought it was only necessary to clear the snow from the windscreen and a wee patch on the back window. That way he can't see the muckle great lumps of snow flying off his roof to spatter the car behind.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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Any chance of changing "2015" in the thread title to "2016"?

Cheers (either way).

Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Just to be hellish -- NO! SUCK IT! SUCK MY INNACURATE THREAD DATE!

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Well, I suppose I could. But I could just as easily lock the thread and make you open a new one.

In fact, it'd be easier still if you stopped your kvetching, opened a new thread and let this one die a natural death, thereby obviating the need for me to do anything at all.

DT
HH


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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275

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Lets give a big round of applause to all the motoring gits (four and two wheels) who think it's a smart idea to dazzle on-coming traffic with their super-bright headlights.

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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?

Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

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Few people seem to realise that most headlights can (and should be) adjusted according to load.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927

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An honourable mention to the man who parked horizontally across two car spaces for disabled parking. He then called my sister's friend a scumbag for taking a photo.

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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.

Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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This happened years ago, but I just remembered it. My husband and I were out for a drive on a winding narrow country road. There was a car in front of us that was going at least ten miles an hour below the speed limit; it also had its left-turn signal on continuously. We followed it for several miles before we came to a stretch of road where it was safe to pass. My husband pulled the car into the other lane to pass, just as the car in front made a left turn. [Ultra confused]

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I found myself having to brake quite suddenly coming out of Glasgow just gone 9pm last night in the rain. On one of the main routes out of town (well, it's the route I usually follow), but still a 30 limit with cars parked outside houses alone the left hand lane. I was following the road around a bend and suddenly found myself behind a cyclist in dark clothing without lights.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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