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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: To all the lefties on here
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I just can't make the link between "matching jacket and trousers, tie and top button done up" and "takes the job seriously". I just can't.
Anyone can do that, well almost anyone - I'd look sruffy in the best Saville Row suit; it's my essense - but it tells me absolutely bugger all about someone, except that they know how to look "smart". Personally, I've known too many absolute shits who were seriously conventionally smart to put any faith whatsoever in someone projecting that image.
Which is why Corbyn comes across positively in this regard. It's like he's saying "Bollocks to all that; bollocks to all image and no trousers; let's concentrate on what matters, like actual policies. Don't trust the suits!" - which is something that resonates with me.
[ 26. October 2015, 12:19: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's an interesting cultural divide - some people find Corbyn scruffy, which to them denotes incompetence and unreliability; others warm to it, as denoting authenticity. I suppose equally for the latter, the 'suits' suggest a fake persona, someone you can't trust, whereas for the scruff-haters, being well-dressed suggests competence.
Well, it's cultural and political as well, as so many cultural symbols are.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I just can't make the link between "matching jacket and trousers, tie and top button done up" and "takes the job seriously". I just can't.
Also, I can't make the link that not wearing a suit and tie = scruffy. My doctor never wears a tie and quite often wears jeans, but I wouldn't describe him as scruffy by any means.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
It isn't the suits that make me distrust Cameron, Osborne and the rest, but they all look the same all of the time. The uniformity is like you see in 'fifties sci-fi films when humanoid aliens come down the ramp from the spacecraft.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Boris is posh scruffy in a ducal, these-tweeds-have-been-in-the-family-since-Edward VII sort of way.
Like the story of the Duke of somewhere-or-other, who was ticked off by a friend in his village for looking scruffy and said, "It doesn't matter, everyone knows me here".
One day said friend bumped into him walking down the street in a smart part of London and wearing the same clothes. This time his response was, "It doesn't matter, no-one knows me here".
I do agree that "posh scruffiness" is different to the scruff of those further down the social ladder. Not quite sure where that places Corbyn.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
To all the Left who on these pages dwell
I bid you all disingenuous farewell.
IthoughtthiswasaChristianwebsite. I was wrong. Oh well.
I'll be seenya. I'll be seenya.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Boris is posh scruffy in a ducal, these-tweeds-have-been-in-the-family-since-Edward VII sort of way.
Like the story of the Duke of somewhere-or-other, who was ticked off by a friend in his village for looking scruffy and said, "It doesn't matter, everyone knows me here".
One day said friend bumped into him walking down the street in a smart part of London and wearing the same clothes. This time his response was, "It doesn't matter, no-one knows me here".
I do agree that "posh scruffiness" is different to the scruff of those further down the social ladder. Not quite sure where that places Corbyn.
Yes, good story, that. Macmillan was an example of someone who- perhaps like Boris- indulged in a carefully calculated scruffiness to try to convey that sort of attitude.
I'd agree with whoever said that Corbyn was standard (middle class intellectual) academic/scientist scruffy. Contrast that with Neil Kinnock, whose dressed exactly as you would expect someone under the influence of a respectable working class South Walian mam to do- neat haircut, nicely pressed shirt, shined shoes, at all times.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
In this day and age of spin, appearances count.
Isn't that the point, though? Mr Corbyn claims to represent politics without spin, so not caring about appearances is consistent with that.
(Personally I think more politicians should dress like Yanis Varoufakis ... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) )
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I rather fancy one that dresses like this.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
You do know he got in on his father's coattails, right?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But were they scruffy or smart coat tails?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Name recognition is definitely a thing.
Running in opposition of a widely reviled and largely incompetent shit weasel is also a thing.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Name recognition is definitely a thing.
Recognition of the name "Bush" isn't doing wonders for JEB -- probably more harm than good.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I'd argue that it depends on the name being recognized. George Bush Sr. was a good-enough president. Dubya was a fucking shitshow.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
... [Corbyn] is far too close to various idiots ...
... and terrorists.
I find it very hard to take someone who cosies up the way Corbyn does to the IRA and sundry other terrorist groups as leader of "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition".
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
It was the "cosying up" (as you put it) that ultimately led to the peace talks.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But were they scruffy or smart coat tails?
Both, depending on when you looked.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
It was the "cosying up" (as you put it) that ultimately led to the peace talks.
Which is rather different to the cosying up that Cameron and Osborne do with Saudi Arabia and China. David and George are overlooking human rights abuses in order to make a quick buck and pass themselves off as heroes of free market economics, when in fact they're little better than the Del Boys of globalisation.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Which is why Corbyn comes across positively in this regard. It's like he's saying "Bollocks to all that; bollocks to all image and no trousers; let's concentrate on what matters, like actual policies. Don't trust the suits!" - which is something that resonates with me.
I was happy to see that he managed to dress in white tie for the state dinner when the Chinese president came calling.
It does rather underline the fact that his choice to look like a politics lecturer in a sports jacket rather than wearing a suit is a deliberate choice of image, though.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think there was a deal done for him to do what the gov wanted at the banquet, in exchange for a private meeting 1to1 with president Xi.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It does rather underline the fact that his choice to look like a politics lecturer in a sports jacket rather than wearing a suit is a deliberate choice of image, though.
Or it could just be what he's comfortable in? When I sing in a concert, I wear DJ with black bow tie as that's what's expected for such an occasion, but I'm buggered if I'm going to wear that stuff the rest of the time.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I was happy to see that he managed to dress in white tie for the state dinner when the Chinese president came calling.
Although the news (and I can't remember which broadcaster it was now) described him as "wearing an ill-fitting hired suit a size too big with a white tie askew". Still, it's a start.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Yes, that's the picture, though I didn't see it in the Mirror.
The next thing will be Poppy Day, I expect.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Or it could just be what he's comfortable in?
In terms of physical comfort, I don't think there's a difference between a suit and a sports jacket.
In terms of psychological comfort? Perhaps Mr. Corbyn would feel uncomfortable in the clothing of the enemy. Where does genuine discomfort end and cultivated image begin? I'm not sure they're really separable.
As far as "hired suit" goes - of course it was a hired suit. Mr. Corbyn hardly had time to go out and have a tailcoat made, even if he was inclined to do so. Being a hired suit, it was a poor fit. Such is the nature of the beast - a "standard" size is never going to fit as well as something that is made for you.
What of it? Politicians wearing badly-fitting suits isn't exactly unusual. If you want to judge Mr. Corbyn for not owning a tailcoat, you could do so, but given that almost nobody owns one, you might find it difficult to get support.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
He looked perfectly OK in his white tie. Actually I always found it rather comfortable- I think it's the cut of the front of the coat that makes it so- clear of the hips.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Actually, Corbyn doesn't strike me as particularly scruffy, more normcore scientist/academic.
Shockingly accurate. Corbyn is not scruffy at all. I do scruffy so I should know. Anyway, scruffy is as much a dress code as any other.
Jeremy Corbyn habitually wears his collars at least two sizes too large. Since he almost certainly hired that white tie kit and would have been measured for it, maybe he suffers from some kind of neck or throat sensitivity.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Personally, I hate wearing a suit and tie. I have had to wear one for work at various times, and I don't like it, not least because I don't look smart in it, and I don't feel especially comfortable.
The idea that wearing a nice suit makes someone trustworthy should be consigned to the bin - these days it means someone has money. Nothing else. More and more business leaders are abandoning the suit and tie, and good for them. These days, a businessman in a suit I suspect of being after my money.
A actually think the dress code in the HoC should be scrapped. MPs should be allowed to dress how they like - it would be interesting to see what some of them would wear. CallMeDave would probably wear tailor-made polo shirts, whereas Corbyn would probably wear his usual jacket. That is representing who he is - someone who is not dressing up (himself or his politics).
And yes, I am a hated leftie. If it means that I don't have to dress up in a monkey suit, I am quite happy. Smart dress is stupid.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The idea that wearing a nice suit makes someone trustworthy should be consigned to the bin - these days it means someone has money. Nothing else.
Do you think it really does? A suit can be acquired these days for quite a reasonable price, I'd say.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Although the news (and I can't remember which broadcaster it was now) described him as "wearing an ill-fitting hired suit a size too big with a white tie askew".
I expect he's had to buy his own furniture as well.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Smart dress is stupid.
Balls. People who say that 'smart dress is stupid;' usually just can't be arsed. It's always worth making an effort if you're going to be around anyone more than you and those who know and tolerate you. Basic self-respect. And, in the Commons, that's just what Corbyn does.
[ 26. October 2015, 20:27: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
I find it very hard to take someone who cosies up the way Corbyn does to the IRA and sundry other terrorist groups as leader of "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition".
Although, as leader of Her Majesty's Opposition he hasn't cosied up to any terrorist groups. His meetings with groups that have been described as terrorists were all before he became leader of the Labour Party.
Besides, there is very little difference between many terrorists groups and some governments with awful records of human rights abuse. Except the government thugs wear a nice suit and the terrorists a mismatched trousers and sports jacket.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
People who say that 'smart dress is stupid;' usually just can't be arsed.
That's like saying people who don't learn Latin can't be arsed. In a sense it's true, but the real question is why should they.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
People who say that 'smart dress is stupid;' usually just can't be arsed.
That's like saying people who don't learn Latin can't be arsed. In a sense it's true, but the real question is why should they.
People learn (enough) Latin so they can create an appearance of being well educated and knowledgeable. People wear particular clothes to create an appearance of being competent in business and politics. In both cases it can very easily be all show, bluster without substance.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Congratulations on turning this thread into a de-facto discussion about tat.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Well, we lost the focus of our ire. And, since we're not going to be inviting him back we've turned to the next best thing to rant Hellishly about ... whether or not it's OK to wear a jacket with mismatched trousers.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Personally, I hate wearing a suit and tie..... Smart dress is stupid.
I feel the same way, but what on earth is "smart dress"? Suits aren't dress - they're packaging; an attempt to make the contents look as if they are worth more, like something on a supermarket shelf. I donated my only suit to a charity recently. I hadn't worn it for years, it made me look phony, and it was hellishly uncomfortable. If I want to dress up for a special occasion I wear my kilt, which is comfortable, and doesn't attract excessive attention to the contents.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Congratulations on turning this thread into a de-facto discussion about tat.
"Congratulations" wasn't exactly the exclamation that was coming to mind as I caught up on the latest entries...
Really, it's bloody fucking scary that people judge a political leader on his clothing as much as on his policies, or even more than on his policies, but it's typical human nature. There's plenty of evidence that we make snap judgements about people in a matter of seconds before they've even opened their mouths. Pathetic, but there it is.
Clothing does have a psychological component for the wearer as well, affecting mood/mindset. Plus it's tribal. I once saw a fairly hilarious article about how the fans of different rock bands would dress. In the accompanying quiz I spotted the Radiohead fans a mile off, but that's probably because Radiohead was the one band in the quiz I liked a lot.
So yeah, maybe the former Greek Treasurer's fondness for leather jackets said something about his political style. Maybe even his political substance. Maybe it just said he likes leather jackets.
The only thing I do know is that "the clothing of the enemy" is the stupidest phrase I've read today, but hey, it's only lunchtime and I've not been on the internet much.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The only thing I do know is that "the clothing of the enemy" is the stupidest phrase I've read today, but hey, it's only lunchtime and I've not been on the internet much.
I'm glad you liked it. If I only managed "stupidest phrase of the day" I'll have to try harder - I was aiming for a best-of-the-week at least. I toyed with "mantle of capitalism" for a while, but that was the wrong kind of silly.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
... whether or not it's OK to wear a jacket with mismatched trousers.
Ah, but what if it's the *jacket* that's mismatched?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Since it's all about who wears the trousers, the trousers are the only thing that matters.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
People who say that 'smart dress is stupid;' usually just can't be arsed.
That's like saying people who don't learn Latin can't be arsed. In a sense it's true, but the real question is why should they.
People learn (enough) Latin so they can create an appearance of being well educated and knowledgeable. People wear particular clothes to create an appearance of being competent in business and politics. In both cases it can very easily be all show, bluster without substance.
Of course it can. But presenting yourself reasonably smartly and tidily- and that doesn't necessarily mean a suit, it could be very informal clothes, although I personally think that for a man a well-cut and well-fitting suit takes some beating- is a compliment to other people, the equivalent of speaking to them politely. On your own, or with those closest to you, or when you're just popping out from digging the allotment or whatever, it's different. But all this 'smart dress is stupid' stuff seems to me to be essentially just an inversion of the attitude that is being decried.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It's all about culture, and being sensitive to the culture of people you are doing business with if you wish to succeed. So, if you want to do business in a culture where it is expected that a small gift be given on the first meeting, don't be surprised if your principled stand against bribery results in you being (politely) ignored and getting no where in your business dealings.
And, if you're dealing with a culture where informal attire is the norm then don't be surprised if you come across as pompous if you wear a suit and tie. And, for most people in the UK the culture is that a suit and tie is only for the most special of occasions - a wedding or similar (and, even then maybe only for the groom and best man).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I had a colleague whose husband worked in a German based electrical company. He needed two sets of work clothes. If he did not attend the UK offices in a suit, he was thought not to take the work seriously. If he did not attend the German offices in casual wear he was thought to be taking appearances more seriously than the work.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Exactly, and for a lot of people in the UK the second attitude would be most common.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Some years ago I read a management book that talked about the Abilene paradox in the context of wearing suits to work.
The author of the book had about 100 mid-level people from an organisation in the room. First, she asked how many of them thought they were expected by colleagues to wear a suit. Most of the hands in the room went up.
Then she asked how many of them actually liked wearing a suit. Only about 10 hands stayed up.
She urged them to look around and register that they'd all be a lot happier if they agreed that people didn't have to wear suits if they didn't want to.
PS I like that the article mentions wearing a poppy. The apparent obsession with this issue in the UK comes across as very strange from outside.
[ 27. October 2015, 07:59: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
PS I like that the article mentions wearing a poppy. The apparent obsession with this issue in the UK comes across as very strange from outside.
That obsession comes across as very strange to many on the inside as well.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Ah, we're about due for Poppy-gate.
Scenario 1: Cameron is photographed wearing a poppy first, and the press will criticise Corbyn for not commemorating our fallen heroes for a long enough period before Remembrance Day.
Scenario 2: Corbyn is photographed wearing a poppy before Cameron, and the press will criticise him for trying too hard to appear as though he's honouring our fallen heroes by getting the poppy out too soon.
[Scenario 3, where all political leaders agree to appear simultaneously wearing a poppy so as to avoid making it a political issue will never happen]
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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