|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: School proms
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
Halloween existed in the UK, of course. But the tradition in England when I was a lad to hold a small party with games such as bobbing for apples has been almost entirely replaced by the imported Trick or Treat tradition. And the incredible level of commercialism.
But, excessive commercialisation is pretty much universal for any form of celebration these days. Which includes school parties marking the end of year. Hence the move from informal disco's to proms - with the inclusion of people commercialising the whole thing with limo's, special hair do's, one-off use clothing ...
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Going house to house on Hallow'een asking for food goes back to the 16th C. in Britain and Ireland and only the 1920's in America.
Yes, in recent history at least, the festivities were more subdued, but the concepts are all UK and Ireland. It is not so much an import as a reimport.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Going house to house on Hallow'een asking for food goes back to the 16th C. in Britain and Ireland and only the 1920's in America.
Yes, in recent history at least, the festivities were more subdued, but the concepts are all UK and Ireland. It is not so much an import as a reimport.
Spot on.
It's multinational corporations that pimp out holidays as gross consumption fests, and various individuals who make the choice to support that.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Going house to house on Hallow'een asking for food goes back to the 16th C. in Britain and Ireland and only the 1920's in America.
Yes, in recent history at least, the festivities were more subdued, but the concepts are all UK and Ireland. It is not so much an import as a reimport.
I came over from Ireland in the 70s and none of my classmates knew anything about Halloween (or St Patrick). Then some years later there was some kind of sudden explosion into the national consciousness of an autumn festival that involved zombies and vampires as well as witches. The traditional elements of fortune-telling, ghost stories, apple games, never got a look in, presumably dropped as the products of a less sophisticated age: this was about fancy dress parties with a macabre theme and doing "trick or treat" and getting as much chocolate, or even money, as you could. And hopefully things not turning nasty with youths shoving fireworks through letterboxes in the name of "trick or treat".
Halloween is essentially a fire festival with the theme of keeping the darkness at bay at the turn of the old year. Of course customs evolve and change, but it does seem a shame that the old traditions have been so completely discarded in favour of what is really just another generic party but with a black-and-orange spooky theme to distinguish it from all the other parties.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
"Guising" at Hallowe'en was a big thing when I was a kid, and my parents and grandparents also went guising when they were young. We dressed up, and went round the neighbours "guising" i.e. telling jokes or reciting a poem and getting sweets, monkey nuts and oranges in return. Some neighbours might have a game set up in their house - apple bobbing, or eating a treacle scone hanging from a string. When we were older, peeling an apple in one strip, then throwing it over your shoulder was a way of foretelling a future husband - the peel was supposed to land in the shape of his initials.
In some ways, it was more of an event then than it is now, because kids just go door-to-door now, rather than going into people's houses, and costumes are bought rather than being made.
One of my neighbours put hours into his kids' costumes; he had four kids and each costume was passed down through them. The best was a sausage made out of chicken wire and papier mache, which was a feature of Hallowe'en for eight years, each child getting to use it for two years.
My costumes tended to be more basic - I wore my brother's football strip one year, and my mother's wedding dress another year, for example. However one year my mother made me a Mary, Queen of Scots outfit (MQS before she was beheaded!)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
theee are references to "mumming and guising" and going house to house asking for food in Ireland from the 19thC. Essential trick or treating. I agree that the loss of the history is sad. It can coexist with newer expressions.
ETA: X-Post with NEQ. Seems every time we have a "bloody American cultural imperialism"! thread, we have posts which challenge it. Doesn't stop the reoccurrence of such threads though.
[ 22. January 2016, 21:14: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
When we were older, peeling an apple in one strip, then throwing it over your shoulder was a way of foretelling a future husband - the peel was supposed to land in the shape of his initials.
Usually an S or a lower case e. Trying to imagine it into the desired initial required a great deal of wishful thinking.
Then there was looking into the mirror by candlelight to see the image of the future partner over your shoulder.
Some of these things were written up in Leon Garfield's "Apprentices" series.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
|
Posted
We definitely had halloween where I grew up in the north of England in the late 60s, early 70s. I think a lot of the festivals blend into each other over the centuries. We always had "Mischief Night" on Halloween. It gave kids the permission to knick-knock (knock on someone's door and run away giggling). A few days later it was bonfire night, with all the treacle toffee and apple bobbing and fireworks. I think these merge together in the collective memory. But I definitely remember Halloween being about ghosts and witches and goblins, even around 1970. I did notice, in the early 80s (perhaps because I was living in a dodgy part of town) that mischief night and "penny for the guy" were starting to coalesce into a kind of protection racket - "give us money or you'll regret it Sir."
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
Yes, "Penny for the Guy" has vanished from the scene now. I did see one briefly on a street corner in Oxford about 15 years ago when a little lad with a Dublin accent you could cut with a knife asked me for a penny for the guy, but that was the only time I'd seen it in what, a good 30 years or so.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
theee are references to "mumming and guising" and going house to house asking for food in Ireland from the 19thC. Essential trick or treating.
There is a distinct difference between guising (performing a song or reciting a poem, or similar, and obtaining some treat in return) and trick or treat (demanding treats with menaces).
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I came over from Ireland in the 70s and none of my classmates knew anything about Halloween (or St Patrick). Then some years later there was some kind of sudden explosion into the national consciousness of an autumn festival that involved zombies and vampires as well as witches.
I have a theory that the explosion into the national interest of the more American expressions of Halloween. I put it down to a single event. The movie E.T., with the prominence of the Halloween celebrations with all the neighbourhood kids out in the street, dressed in ghoulish costumes, trick or treating.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
theee are references to "mumming and guising" and going house to house asking for food in Ireland from the 19thC. Essential trick or treating. I agree that the loss of the history is sad. It can coexist with newer expressions.
ETA: X-Post with NEQ. Seems every time we have a "bloody American cultural imperialism"! thread, we have posts which challenge it. Doesn't stop the reoccurrence of such threads though.
The way I understand it, the "parade/ party" version of Halloween came about as one rural American woman's efforts to curb the growing popularity of the "protection racket" version of Mischief Night that was getting genuinely dangerous in remote homesteads-- think the Great Plains, 1830 or so, towns with a population of 40, ten of that 40 being boys aged 10-19...
Her solution to create a more centralized community event where everyone could have fun, but more or less keep their eyes on each other. If any violent "mischief" did occur, everyone not at the party would be the first people questioned.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
theee are references to "mumming and guising" and going house to house asking for food in Ireland from the 19thC. Essential trick or treating.
There is a distinct difference between guising (performing a song or reciting a poem, or similar, and obtaining some treat in return) and trick or treat (demanding treats with menaces).
All I know of the American version has more menace to the trick or treaters than from them. If you are correct about ET being a source of the resurgence in the UK, the threat is from within, not from without.
Kelly's link does reference violence, but that is from some time ago and isn't, IME, a reflection of the modern celebration of Hallowe'en in Anerica.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Now that schools have to compete against each other, most put on a prom because kids would choose another school otherwise.
Really? There are a significant number of families who would chose the school where their children are going to spend several years of their lives based on the quality of the end-of-school party?
I wish that were so. You underestimate pester power.
Plus parents are starting to save up mney for costumes - helicopters in extreme cases.
They also appreciate the likelihood of better behaviour since prom attendance eligibility is a bribe.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
Guising is still a tradition in parts of the Netherlands, on St. Martin's Day (11 November).
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
|
Posted
quote:
Plus parents are starting to save up mney for costumes - helicopters in extreme cases.
Great! "I saw it on the internet, luvs. I can't buy you x and y because I have to save up for a helicopter for your school leaving party!"
...and when in 6 and 8 years time, we're still 150 grand short - "never mind dears, if we keep saving maybe I can bring you to your wedding in the helicopter!"
What about lessons and licensing...do you think the odd provisional entitlements which come with a full driving license ('track-laying vehicles' etc...) might cover it? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
leo:Plus parents are starting to save up mney for costumes - helicopters in extreme cases.
Oh I don't know. This one is quite nice for a prom.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mrs Shrew
Ship's Mother
# 8635
|
Posted
I'm pretty sure that increasing prom flamboyance is not an import of any sort. To me it links in a bit with all the reality TV " become a celebrity in a jungle with a big brother house" crap. Kids are increasingly focused on wanting to be a pop singer with lots of money and fame, and wanting to look glamorous like their favourite reality stars.
We have always celebrated leaving school, and as a couple of people have said, proms are basically school discos but jazzed up with a ton of extras.
If your goals and interests are defined by celebrity TV then of course you are going to want to spend hideous amounts on dresses and limos and hairdressing and suits. Because that is what you see celebrities doing.
AIUI x factor was a UK thing to begin with. And I would put it squarely in the court of "things linked to the popularity of x factor".
--------------------
"The goal of life is not to make other people in your own image, it is to understand that they, too, are in God's image" (Orfeo)
Was "mummyfrances".
Posts: 703 | From: York, England | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Mrs Shrew: To me it links in a bit with all the reality TV " become a celebrity in a jungle with a big brother house" crap.
This started in the Netherlands ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
I don't think we ever had formal celebrations on leaving school. Depending on what exams you were doing, different people finished at different times, even different weeks.
I do remember a wave of people going round getting friends and teachers to sign our school hymn books with a cheery message under their favourite hymn, but there weren't any formal celebrations that I remember. Some of us arranged pub meets afterwards because we were now grown up and could do this, but I don't think most of us did anything much. Leaving school wasn't that big a thing back then.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
|
Posted
Drifting off topic, but enjoying some memories... We lived in a suburb of Montreal when the children were younger. I was younger, too. There was a wonderful Hallowe'en when we all - a mob of parents and children - dressed up and knocked on neighbours' doors to see if they could guess who we were. I was dressed as the character from Bertram Battell's Sideshow. (Anyone remember the production by Ballet Rambert? A lovely, haunting thing as I remember it). It was fun - no demands for cash or sweets; just trudging around chilly streets and laughing until we all got too cold for any more.
--------------------
Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
None of the American trick or treaters I know would have the slightest idea what to do if someone refused them the "treat". "Tricks" and mischief/menaces (?) are things that we might possibly hear our great grandparents tell stories about (e.g. turning over outhouses, it's that long ago--back in the days before indoor plumbing for most people). Today it's just a chance to dress in costume and run around in the dark with friends. Even the candy is not foremost for most of them, though it's a rare child that will turn down chocolate.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Drifting off topic, but enjoying some memories...
Let's not do that. It'll be the quickest way to a thread-lock that I know. Heaven is ^ thataway.
DT
HH
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
|
Posted
Sackcloth and ashes.. See you in Heaven. Maybe.
--------------------
Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I am young enough to have had a school prom. It was not expensive or extravagant - I wore an £18 dress, tickets cost £25, it was a meal and a disco in a local hotel. I went to a girls' school and few people brought male partners, it was mostly friends dancing together. It was just a fun end to school - I don't see the harm. Of course it can get silly, but it doesn't mean the concept of a prom is inherently bad in the same way that OTT weddings don't mean that weddings are inherently bad.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Now that schools have to compete against each other, most put on a prom because kids would choose another school otherwise.
Really? There are a significant number of families who would chose the school where their children are going to spend several years of their lives based on the quality of the end-of-school party?
I wish that were so. You underestimate pester power.
Plus parents are starting to save up mney for costumes - helicopters in extreme cases.
They also appreciate the likelihood of better behaviour since prom attendance eligibility is a bribe.
Because kidz are much more likely to pester their parents to transfer schools for a prom than they are to pester their friends for an invite.
--------------------
“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
When I was in High School in the late sixties, our class was asked if we wanted a Senior prom. It was pointed out that the previous year only 10 people showed up and 6 of them were juniors. The class decided not to bother.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
I was at high school in the 60s and there was no such event as a school formal then. I'm not sure when they hit the area I call home, but they certainly exist nowadays and involve extravagance which makes thing difficult for kids from poorer homes.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
When I left school, all we did was take photos of each other outside the 6th form common room. And then went quietly home as usual. I think we all thought we were far too grown up to do anything grand or silly. (We saved that for university/college ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
Halloween when I was a kid in the 70's might have meant a party in someone's house to bob for apples, or an apple hung on a string; the apple tart with a five-pence in it, that kind of thing. We weren't allowed to go guising because our parents said it was 'begging'; and it was shameful to go round our neighbours asking for handouts. Witches hats and gruesome face masks were allowed. But friends who went to the more evangelical churches were banned from 'celebrating' Satan in this way! Times have changed!
--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
