|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Leave your brains at the church door.
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
Recently, on facebook, there was a post from someone in my old church with a question that their children had asked (it was about how God was made). Their response was "This is a question for [The vicar]".
It was a difficult question, but one that I would have thought most Christians would be able to explore and discuss. But they weren't prepared to.
Why is it, so often in my experience, that Christians (some of whom are very intelligent and demonstrate this in their jobs) are stupid when it comes to their faith. I know that some of them would be furious if their staff were to take such a "we know nothing" attitude with questions around their work.
I am not suggesting that everyone needs formal study, but they need to be prepared to THINK. It is shown in extreme cases with the more radical fundamentalist groups, but it seems to be also, to a lesser degree, in ordinary churches.
Seriously, if you need the vicar to tell you what to think, you need to get a fucking life. Jesus didn't die to make you stupider than you are.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
My sense is that this is the inevitable outcome of the clergy/laity divide.
The unspoken assumption is that ministers are the specialists; after all, they're trained and then paid to know the answers to tricky theological questions. The rest of us are mere amateurs. We sit in the pews in silence while they speak.
Of course, these days any of us can go on a theology course or take to reading serious books about exegetics or whatever. But IME ordinary mainstream churches don't particularly encourage this. It's not necessarily required of a 'good Christian', although somebody might suggest it if they think you're clever.
Not all Christians, even in the CofE, are bookish, of course. There are churchgoers - and certainly non-churchgoing adult Christians - who don't particularly like to read. There's very little if anything available on the market (DVDs, booklets, posters, etc.) to help them to understand the Bible, or Christian ideas in general.
It's a two-tier religion.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
God did not have to be made. All things flow from Him/Her. God was, is, and will be per omnia saecula saeculorum
That is a simple answer - and for a simple man, it took me 10 seconds to formulate and write.
Some people are too quick to shuffle simple questions off to someone else.
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
SvitlanaV2: My sense is that this is the inevitable outcome of the clergy/laity divide.
Our church has found the easiest solution for this ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
I like this.
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Not all Christians, even in the CofE, are bookish, of course. There are churchgoers - and certainly non-churchgoing adult Christians - who don't particularly like to read. There's very little if anything available on the market (DVDs, booklets, posters, etc.) to help them to understand the Bible, or Christian ideas in general.
The thing is, the CofE in particular (although not by any means exclusively) is literate-focussed. It is very hard to be an active member without being literate, which is a barrier in itself.
So having excluded those who cannot or don't read, those who do seem not to. Or at least, only read things that tell them everything is OK.
There are ways of learning how to think without needing to read. That is all that is needed, and seems to be too much to ask.
The problem is not how academic, bookish, intelligent churchgoers are. I reject the intellectualism that is in some areas of the church. It is about using the minds you have, however astute or straightforward they are.
As Uncle Pete said, this was not a complex or difficult question. And yet nobody on facebook (except me, of course) was prepared to provide an answer.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My sense is that this is the inevitable outcome of the clergy/laity divide.
Bollocks. There's nothing inevitable about it. People choose not to think, not to investigate and not to question. In fact, unquestioning deferral to authority seems to be far more common in my experience among "non-denominational" types who reject any formal idea of clergy (not to mention formal theological training).
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
We often assume that things that are easy for us should be easy for other people, or that if we're confident about our knowledge then it's odd that other people might feel diffident about theirs. But we need to put ourselves in other people's shoes. Not everyone in church is as engaged with these things or as clued up as some of the denizens of the Ship....
The question is, what can be done about it? Which mainstream churches have the time, the resources, the manpower, the skills to address these issues?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
I never answer religious or political posts on FB - far more trouble than it's worth!
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
As Uncle Pete said, this was not a complex or difficult question. And yet nobody on facebook (except me, of course) was prepared to provide an answer.
I think you are doing your FB friends a disservice.
The question was from someone's children, and children are fiendishly good at seeing through platitudinous assertions like "All things come from God."
So, I'd guess some had experience of discussing it before and realised it is actually not such a simple question at all, and others maybe thought for a while and concluded, "You know what, this is all to do with the nature of an eternal god, why is there something rather than nothing and all that. They should talk to the vicar, s/he loves all that shit."
Edited because I didn't proof read
[ 30. January 2016, 16:38: Message edited by: Grokesx ]
--------------------
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
Posts: 373 | From: Derby, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
We often assume that things that are easy for us should be easy for other people, or that if we're confident about our knowledge then it's odd that other people might feel diffident about theirs. But we need to put ourselves in other people's shoes. Not everyone in church is as engaged with these things or as clued up as some of the denizens of the Ship....
I absolutely accept this, but I think it is the problem of the churches and their teachers who, so often, tell their congregations (in various ways) that they don't need to think about these things, that they are complicated and difficult.
Whereas the job of the church should be to teach people how to think through their faith, how to question and think. In some cases, it is people who know what they believe and can express it, but won't explore with people who might challenge. I just think that, if the church is unable to help intelligent, rational, sensible people discuss their faith, what the actual fuck is the point of it?
I am not saying it is easy or natural for people. I am saying that the church is failing by not helping these people think about their faith. What are they going to do if at work (say) someone asks them what they believe? "Sorry, I will have to ask my vicar."
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Recently, on facebook, there was a post from someone in my old church with a question that their children had asked (it was about how God was made). Their response was "This is a question for [The vicar]".
What an awesome question, inviting a lot of philosophical and theological conversation which I (and my kids when they were little) would enjoy the spots off of. But not everybody is of a theological or philosophical bent. It's a fairly subtle question, if handled right, and "nobody made God, he's always been there," while the "right" answer from a historical-theological perspective, is kind of a cop-out for a probing child's mind.
But I can hardly blame the parents for not knowing how to discuss it. Or even knowing how to look up a decent (and non-heretical) discussion of it.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Schroedinger's Cat
I totally agree that church leaders often aren't helping their members to think about these things.
One article I read (see esp. pp. 122-125) said that the necessary expansion of lay responsibility into the areas traditionally belonging to the (CinW) clergy had actually made some clergy more protective of those competencies that they still remained in charge of. I imagine theological competency is one of those areas which the clergy will continue to reserve for itself, because it helps to reinforce the sacredness of their calling in a way that their more profane jobs do not.
The article also makes clear that even though the laity might be blamed for being resistant to change and too reliant on priestly leadership (p. 124) the clergy would have to allow their own role and status to evolve if congregations became significantly more independent. It's not clear to me that this is what the clergy really want.
Anyway, to move the above closer to Hell, I think we're all in a big pooish puddle of confused motives and underprovision.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
Mousethief - I suppose the problem is that they seemed unable to engage with the question at all. And also that the vicar will have "the answer".
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
One thing I would suggest is that it is quite likely that when they were their child's age they had similar questions and their parents gave similar answers.
My experience tend me to lean towards the idea that children are natural theologians. That is they engage with many profound questions about the nature of divinity but often have limited conceptual frameworks with which to work.
When they are told to ask the vicar or hushed as asking stupid questions by adults they learn to distrust their questions. This then leads them to repeat the pattern with their children.
However when children find their questions about divinity taken seriously and answered the opposite happens and they learn that they are able to do theology.
In other words there is nothing remarkable about St Thomas Aquinas in the fact that he asked the questions about God at the age of five; what is remarkable is the adults around him took those questions seriously.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Not all Christians, even in the CofE, are bookish, of course. There are churchgoers - and certainly non-churchgoing adult Christians - who don't particularly like to read. There's very little if anything available on the market (DVDs, booklets, posters, etc.) to help them to understand the Bible, or Christian ideas in general.
The thing is, the CofE in particular (although not by any means exclusively) is literate-focussed. It is very hard to be an active member without being literate, which is a barrier in itself.
Which is bonkers, really, because when you think about it, for at least the first 300 years after the separation from Rome (and before that too, of course) the assumption would have been that the majority or at any rate a large number of CofE worshippers would not have been literate to any great extent- hence the simple structure of the 1662 (and earlier) services, lots of repetition, lots of stuff that you learn by heart wittingly or unwittingly. I think that the emphasis on written stuff (including all those fiddly options for worship) is perhaps paradoxically a symptom of clericalisation- an assumption that everybody is going to be like the clergy in their intellects and habits and ways of being.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
My experience tend me to lean towards the idea that children are natural theologians. That is they engage with many profound questions about the nature of divinity but often have limited conceptual frameworks with which to work.
Jesus, don't we all?
In fact, that would be my answer right there." Wow, there are so, so many things about God that nobody knows. That's why people keep writing books about God, they are trying to figure God out. Where do you think God came from?" And then shut up and listen to the answer.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Mousethief - I suppose the problem is that they seemed unable to engage with the question at all. And also that the vicar will have "the answer".
That is, IMO, an indictment of the vicar/priest/monk/etc., the parent or both.
[ 30. January 2016, 22:20: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
At this point I could mention a Methodist circuit initiative in Birmingham called 'Heretics Anonymous'. It's a regular discussion group for Christians who want to talk about their unorthodox take on faith.
Something like this could presumably work well in a gathering of CofE parishes, or in a diocese. I don't think it would be realistic in a single congregation, because you wouldn't get enough interest to make it worth the leader's time. (In Heretics Anonymous there's always a theologically trained person, usually ordained, to manage the discussion and to state the orthodox view where necessary.) Anglicans find it easy to disagree with each other so perhaps you'd be assured of some lively meetings!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Whoa, whoa, whoa, I missed something: quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... this was not a complex or difficult question. And yet nobody on facebook (except me, of course) was prepared to provide an answer.
"Where did God come from?" Is not a complex or difficult question? Are you kidding me? What the hell sort of inside track do you have, because I am pretty Bible literate and reasonably theologically informed, and I sure as hell wouldn't know how to answer this question, other than the "holy fuck, kid, how should I know?" response I suggested above.
The poor parents probably gabbled out " that's one for the vicar" because their poor brains had exploded at the mere question, and what few brain cells hadn't leaked out of their ears could only produce that response. Why are we judging people for being flummoxed at flummoxing questions? Since when is SOF HQ located at the top of the Himalayas?
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
One possibility is that there's a certain kind of ... fear? humility? around the idea of understanding THEOLOGY (oh noes!), rather like the awe with which simple people like myself meet rocket scientists. I think a lot of otherwise intelligent people just go wobbly in the knees when it comes to making definite statements about God, perhaps out of half-remembered superstitious fear of what might happen if they Get It Wrong.
If it IS that kind of humility, then that explains why SOF has so few of these people aboard. You'll never catch one of US refusing to give an opinion! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
The thing is, though, we have no possiblity of getting this particular question right. God didn't include his birth certificate in any of the Holy Books we've got. So, in my mind, someone who is baffled by the question has an accurate grasp of the situation.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Schroedinger's Cat
I totally agree that church leaders often aren't helping their members to think about these things.
But thank you for adding the word "often"-- because, while church leaders not wanting to share knowledge (power) is a problem, it's not universal, and quite a number of pastors and priests are in the opposite position of trying to motivate an often disinterested congregation to move beyond simple, easy answers to a deeper, more reflective faith.
As was noted upthread, people vary greatly in their interest levels. It's hard for me to imagine someone not being particularly interested with theological discussion/debate, because I (perhaps clearly) love it. But the fact is, not everyone is.
And no one can be an expert at everything (although some like to pretend they are). You can't read up and know everything about theology, politicals, economics, science... so we pick and choose. Which is always going to leave some areas "unlearned" where we will rely on trusted others to "think for us" to some degree. I do this (perhaps foolishly) when I take my car to an auto mechanic. Most of us do this to some degree when we see a doctor. It would be arrogant to assume we know more than every professional in every field.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
|
Posted
This reminds me of going to a Sunday School picnic where my older brother, then aged about 10, was stung by a bee. "Why did God let a bee sting me at a Sunday School picnic?" he asked the Vicar, who rapidly found something to do over the other side of the paddock.
Huia
--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
I think y'all are being unfair. This is a very erudite board that is peopled with thinkers. Some people just aren't thinkers in this way. (Some of my closest family members in fact.) A question like this just doesn't engage their interest or arouse their curiosity. (I tried, believe me. Back when I was young and naïve.) This doesn't make us better people than they are. If they are not judging us for liking this kind of question, they may indeed be better people than we are.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
This reminds me of going to a Sunday School picnic where my older brother, then aged about 10, was stung by a bee. "Why did God let a bee sting me at a Sunday School picnic?" he asked the Vicar, who rapidly found something to do over the other side of the paddock.
Huia
Yeah, thanks, God. Talk about negative reinforcement.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
I was asked this question by an 11 year old girl once. I said that the problem was, that we live in time, in which everything has a beginning and an end. So we think that God must have a beginning as well. But God doesn't live in time - God lives in eternity, which has no beginning or end. So no one made God - God has just always been. But because we live in time, that is really hard for us to get our head round.
A few months later, her 9 year old brother asked me the same question. Before I could answer, his sister told him, "It's all to do with the difference between time and eternity. You'll understand when you're older." !!
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Pretty much what Kelly and mt and others said, about don't know, can't know, different strokes, etc.
I hate it when people think they've got God pinned down on a butterfly board.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
While church leaders not wanting to share knowledge (power) is a problem, it's not universal, and quite a number of pastors and priests are in the opposite position of trying to motivate an often disinterested congregation to move beyond simple, easy answers to a deeper, more reflective faith.
As was noted upthread, people vary greatly in their interest levels. It's hard for me to imagine someone not being particularly interested with theological discussion/debate, because I (perhaps clearly) love it. But the fact is, not everyone is.
I often despair of getting folk to attend study groups etc. where they can think about their faith. Many seem to have the attitude that "I learned all I needed when I was a child; I don't need to learn any more, thank you!"
What triggers this? It may be laziness or a lack of intellectual curiosity. But I think it's more to do with security and fear. On the one hand, folk don't want to leave the safety of the simple and enter an uncertain world of questioning; indeed, they may see church as the one secure place within an ever-changing and confusing world.
Equally, they may be frightened that God will show them "new truths" which will challenge them to alter their accepted lifestyle or preconceptions- and they don't want that either, it's too uncomfortable!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Well the classic book is What Prevents Christian Adults from Learning by John Hull. You almost certainly can pick it up quite cheaply second hand.
I would add to that two things:
- the argument I give above that people are taught as children that their theological questions do not count
- the nature of the way since the Reformation belief has concentrated on intellectual assent. That congregations are places where people belong. Quite a lot of that belonging is built on a tacit understanding of where not to ask questions. One of those places is about doctrine.
These are both cultural. You are not going to change this with a couple of sermons. You are going to have to tackle it obliquely.
[eta]More importantly the dichotomy between Clergy and lay individuals needs to be dropped. We need to look at the reasons the collective body of the congregation may seek to avoid learning despite individuals and clergy both acknowledging that it is a good thing.
Jengie
[ 31. January 2016, 09:32: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
Kelly - I do accept that there is a whole lot of depth that you can draw into this question.
The thing is, it it a perfectly reasonable sort of question that should be able to start a discussion. Not necessarily that deep - just as deep as the child needs. The actual question I have forgotten so it may have not been quite as deep.
The problem I have is that if they can't respond to these questions from their own children, how are they expecting to answer what might be more challenging questions from others, which is what (as an evangelical church) they should be being trained to do.
That is my point - not that everyone should be able to answer any question fired at them, but that church members should be enabled to think about their faith, and discuss it with others. The implication of this is that they have never asked these basic questions ( about who God is ). Not that they have had answers, but that they have asked the questions.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
I was asked this question by an 11 year old girl once. I said that the problem was, that we live in time, in which everything has a beginning and an end. So we think that God must have a beginning as well. But God doesn't live in time - God lives in eternity, which has no beginning or end. So no one made God - God has just always been. But because we live in time, that is really hard for us to get our head round.
A few months later, her 9 year old brother asked me the same question. Before I could answer, his sister told him, "It's all to do with the difference between time and eternity. You'll understand when you're older." !!
I do hope the children in question eventually came to the understanding that they were fobbed if with a combination of special pleading and a hand wave.
As has been said, there is only one honest short answer, and that's, "I don't know." Any other short one is just a way of ending or postponing thought. Or in the terms of the OP, fucking stupid.
--------------------
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
Posts: 373 | From: Derby, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
To add to "I don't know", "I'll go away and find out" stood me in good stead when I was teaching. The child in question would also tend - if the question wasn't deliberately vexatious - to do likewise.
The banner behind the pulpit now reads "Trust and obey". One of the congregation, whose family was virtually wiped out in the Holocaust, has great difficulty with that. I'm not a great fan, either.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
To add to "I don't know", "I'll go away and find out" stood me in good stead when I was teaching.
Yes.
I should point out that the area I live in and the church I was at is a high-performing area, with a degree being pretty standard. So as a whole, the congregation should be able to cope with some stretching of the grey cells.
And I was particularly disturbed that the response is "ask the vicar" rather than "How would others answer this?". This occasion is not the only one I have encountered, but it is the most recent one.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I often despair of getting folk to attend study groups etc. where they can think about their faith. Many seem to have the attitude that "I learned all I needed when I was a child; I don't need to learn any more, thank you!"
What triggers this? It may be laziness or a lack of intellectual curiosity. But I think it's more to do with security and fear. On the one hand, folk don't want to leave the safety of the simple and enter an uncertain world of questioning; indeed, they may see church as the one secure place within an ever-changing and confusing world.
Equally, they may be frightened that God will show them "new truths" which will challenge them to alter their accepted lifestyle or preconceptions- and they don't want that either, it's too uncomfortable!
The text I referred to above suggests if you did have such a questioning, challenging congregation, it would probably end up becoming quite uncomfortable and unsettling for you....
The constitution of the average (Western?) congregation is an interesting factor. What I've read and seen too is that many churches are likely to be dominated by 'passively active' personality types, people who'll fight to keep things the same, or who are in church primarily to be comforted. The more questioning, seeking minds are going to be outnumbered in most congregations. There are no doubt different ideas as to how this situation has developed.
What some individuals do if they're becoming frustrated is join a mainstream university congregation and enjoy a more cerebral, engaging environment there. Some people travel quite a way to attend such churches.
As for what to do to develop more typical congregations, one Baptist church I know decided to have its discussion groups on Sunday mornings, as part of the service (although not all year round). No getting away from the discussions, IOW! Introducing the idea was difficult, and some of the older people were very unhappy, but I understand that it works well now. One advantage this church has is that young people and converts have become a high proportion of attenders, and they were probably easier to convince. Older worshippers can't really argue against the importance of developing new believers, can they?
Maybe discussion groups need to be marketed differently. Selling them as places to 'learn' might be off-putting to older people, or the less academic. Why not promote them as places to share or explore or to get to know each other's journey in faith?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
That is my point - not that everyone should be able to answer any question fired at them, but that church members should be enabled to think about their faith, and discuss it with others.
How do you know the problem is that they haven't been enabled, rather than that they just aren't interested in that kind of subtlety? You're saying it's not enough for them to know Jesus loves them, and to try to love God and neighbor. They also must be junior theologians. Otherwise they're being oppressed or lazy or something.
quote:
The implication of this is that they have never asked these basic questions ( about who God is ). Not that they have had answers, but that they have asked the questions.
So what you and so many others here are saying is that in order to be a good little Christian someone has to be a philosopher. Someone who isn't interested in that kind of question is lacking in some crucial way. Only people with the kind of intellectual curiosity that would lead them to ponder and discuss such things are allowed in the Thinking Christians Club that is the Church.
This is really cutting close to gnosticism.
quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
I do hope the children in question eventually came to the understanding that they were fobbed if with a combination of special pleading and a hand wave.
Bullshit. That's as good an answer as you're going to fit into that few words. Most people here want every Christian to be a philosopher. You want every Christian to NOT be. Hard question? Just say "I don't know" and walk away. It's a cop-out. Those who can and want to wrestle with questions like this should be encouraged to.
If "We can't know" is the only possible answer, we should just shut down all the seminaries, and the Ship of Fools, and stop pretending there's any point in discussing theology at all.
Lot of Procrustean beds in this thread.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
|
Posted
You guys are so coy. Of course you have to leave (a large portion of) your brains at the door to be able to enjoy the sense of immersion in the church. To do otherwise is to erode the structure of the shared sense of connection of Comforting Truth™.
If you were there for the socializing, you might be better off finding a social group less associated with abuse.
If you were there to help others, you just as easily could volunteer at an organization with better safeguards against corruption and without dehumanizing agendas.
If you were there for the music, you could join or form a band that suited you.
If you were there for the architecture, you can show up any old time and avoid the brain-leaving requirements.
But no, most of you are going to assert "connection to something more" and aspirations regarding "beyond this earthly frame". So illusions of some kind of Comforting Truth™ it is! Because, why wouldn't and all-powerful entity need you to support a parasitic entity whose primary interest seems to be its own existence?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
You're probably right, RooK, but for now I'm gonna step over your nihilistic vomit and play along: quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
To add to "I don't know", "I'll go away and find out" stood me in good stead when I was teaching.
Yes.
I should point out that the area I live in and the church I was at is a high-performing area, with a degree being pretty standard. So as a whole, the congregation should be able to cope with some stretching of the grey cells.
And I was particularly disturbed that the response is "ask the vicar" rather than "How would others answer this?". This occasion is not the only one I have encountered, but it is the most recent one.
If one desired to be generous, one could interpret "ask the vicar" as another form of "I'll go away and find out." Is it wrong to ask someone with more education in the matter than you for help?
Like I said, the read I got of the response was 1. Someone who was conpletely thrown for a loop , and 2. Someone who was less interested in the question than chuffed that their kid was smart enough to ask it. More power to them for subtly bragging about their smart kid.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
|
Posted
Mousethief
quote:
Bullshit. That's as good an answer as you're going to fit into that few words... Hard question? Just say "I don't know" and walk away. It's a cop-out. Those who can and want to wrestle with questions like this should be encouraged to.
I didn't say walk away. I said there is no honest short answer other than I don't know. Cottontail's short answer ended up killing an eleven year old's curiosity on the subject stone dead. If that was meant to encourage wrestling with the question it was not a conspicuous success. May as well have just said wibbly wobbly timey wimey and be done with it.
quote:
Most people here want every Christian to be a philosopher. You want every Christian to NOT be.
As this is hell, fuck off. You don't know that about me at all.
--------------------
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
Posts: 373 | From: Derby, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
Bear in mind that I was a member of this church for a long time. And there are other cases similar from when I was there.
I expect Christians to use the brains they have to apply them to their faith. That is all. And yet it seems too much to ask.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
Mousethief
As this is hell, fuck off. You don't know that about me at all.
I can infer from what you post that you are a nasty person. Also that you want to shut down discussion, and that you think an attempt at an answer is inferior to just throwing up our hands and saying, "Nobody knows."
If you want to dispel these notions of who you are, you sure picked a funny way.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
I said there is no honest short answer other than I don't know. Cottontail's short answer ended up killing an eleven year old's curiosity on the subject stone dead.
And "I don't know" doesn't? "I don't know" must be followed up with something, or the underlying message "and I don't care" comes through loud and clear to a child.
There are of course many ways to play it. "I don't know, I haven't thought of that before, what do you think?" is one. "Here's what St. Augustine said, although it's not an official dogma. What do you think?" is another. A flat "I don't know" is the real conversation killer.
quote:
If that was meant to encourage wrestling with the question it was not a conspicuous success. May as well have just said wibbly wobbly timey wimey and be done with it.
It's a perfectly good answer and in keeping with over a thousand years of Christian theology. I fail to see what your problem is with it. And no, you haven't said what your problem was, only that you don't like it.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I should point out that the area I live in and the church I was at is a high-performing area, with a degree being pretty standard. So as a whole, the congregation should be able to cope with some stretching of the grey cells.
Were these people at the church in order to get their kids into a particular school? Or is it the sort of area that people move to because they want to experience the community life of 'olde England', and starting to attend church is part of that?
On a less cynical note, these could be people at the stage of belonging before believing. You haven't said if they're actually Christians, or how long they've been Christians.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I often despair of getting folk to attend study groups etc. where they can think about their faith. Many seem to have the attitude that "I learned all I needed when I was a child; I don't need to learn any more, thank you!"
What triggers this? It may be laziness or a lack of intellectual curiosity. But I think it's more to do with security and fear. On the one hand, folk don't want to leave the safety of the simple and enter an uncertain world of questioning; indeed, they may see church as the one secure place within an ever-changing and confusing world.
Equally, they may be frightened that God will show them "new truths" which will challenge them to alter their accepted lifestyle or preconceptions- and they don't want that either, it's too uncomfortable!
The text I referred to above suggests if you did have such a questioning, challenging congregation, it would probably end up becoming quite uncomfortable and unsettling for you....
I think you're unfairly jumping to a conclusion there.
Oh wait, I forgot, this is hell. Carry on. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
[ 31. January 2016, 22:10: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I suspect that it is hard to get people into study groups when they already have an occupation. The idea of wrangling kids all day, or spending the day in the office, then going out to do study in addition is not appealing. When you do a standard education course, it has a clearly defined goal and you know its going to end. Churches tend to offer bible study groups that risk becoming eternal.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
cliffdweller
I was hardly 'jumping' to anything - I said that a text to which I'd posted a link 'suggests' that something would 'probably' happen. A suggestion isn't an assertion. It's a possibility. I incline to think there's something in it, true, but I'm aware that other outcomes are possible. But I certainly wasn't picking on Baptist Trainfan as some kind of unfortunate anomaly.
Your church and a select number of others may be able to put these problems to bed without too much trouble. That's very fortunate for you, but the problem is what to do about the large numbers of churches (in the British context, anyway) that do face these almost stereotypical problems as a way of life. The clergy complain about their congregations, the congregations complain about their clergy, and each group has constituents who complain about each other.
If you have any solutions I'm sure they'd be gratefully received. I've suggested a few already, but I don't know if much that can be done for the average British church.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I never answer religious or political posts on FB - far more trouble than it's worth!
Perhaps the issue is the fear of getting into a lengthy debate.
I had an incident yesterday, not on Facebook, but in real life where I spoke out to disagree on a point of politics. My friend is a staunch anti-Tory and pro-union guy. Yet he said that Jeremy Corbyn was an idiot. That last bit was not a statement I agreed with and I said so. But this set him off on a rant of non-sequiteurs punctuated by "you know", "you know what I mean", "yeah, you're with me" that had no coherence at all. It's not an experience I particularly want to go through again, so I'll be thinking twice before speaking my mind to that person again.
When it comes to explaining things to children, there's a further complication that a pithy answer may be taken at face value at first, but only later do they come to think things through in greater depth.
I've seen this a lot amongst anti-evangelicals, who when given simple answers at a young age to complicated questions, later come to think that they're parents or pastors were being misleading or thick, when in fact they were just trying to be helpful and tailor an answer to their audience's level of understanding; and maybe getting it wrong.
--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Sipech: Perhaps the issue is the fear of getting into a lengthy debate.
I don't do Facebook, but I suspect that the issue is that a lot of people who post these things on Facebook don't know how to do a debate.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
I said there is no honest short answer other than I don't know. Cottontail's short answer ended up killing an eleven year old's curiosity on the subject stone dead.
And "I don't know" doesn't? "I don't know" must be followed up with something, or the underlying message "and I don't care" comes through loud and clear to a child.
There are of course many ways to play it. "I don't know, I haven't thought of that before, what do you think?" is one. "Here's what St. Augustine said, although it's not an official dogma. What do you think?" is another. A flat "I don't know" is the real conversation killer.
quote:
If that was meant to encourage wrestling with the question it was not a conspicuous success. May as well have just said wibbly wobbly timey wimey and be done with it.
It's a perfectly good answer and in keeping with over a thousand years of Christian theology. I fail to see what your problem is with it. And no, you haven't said what your problem was, only that you don't like it.
I agree. I think it is a pretty good answer from the point of view of my belief system. And all of us, (except agnostics whose theology is, indeed, "I don't know") are taking a shot in the dark about all this God stuff anyway and hoping for the best. The only difference in what I would say would be "I believe that God lives in eternity and we don't so it's hard for us to picture in what way he lives his life."
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
