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Originally posted by Sipech:

When it comes to explaining things to children, there's a further complication that a pithy answer may be taken at face value at first, but only later do they come to think things through in greater depth.

I've seen this a lot amongst anti-evangelicals, who when given simple answers at a young age to complicated questions, later come to think that they're parents or pastors were being misleading or thick, when in fact they were just trying to be helpful and tailor an answer to their audience's level of understanding; and maybe getting it wrong. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Sipech:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I never answer religious or political posts on FB - far more trouble than it's worth!

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Perhaps the issue is the fear of getting into a lengthy debate

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Originally posted by Evangeline:

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Originally posted by Sipech:

When it comes to explaining things to children, there's a further complication that a pithy answer may be taken at face value at first, but only later do they come to think things through in greater depth.

I've seen this a lot amongst anti-evangelicals, who when given simple answers at a young age to complicated questions, later come to think that they're parents or pastors were being misleading or thick, when in fact they were just trying to be helpful and tailor an answer to their audience's level of understanding; and maybe getting it wrong.

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Yes, this! The Godly Play movement tries to address this very problem (I'm not an expert in Godly play but have read some of the books and like the underlying philosophy).

As somebody who works in children's ministry this thread is very interesting. [/QB]

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Prime example of what a pastor (who I should specify is himself a neo-Pentie) of whom I am fond likes to refer to as “Pentecostal nonsense” AKA brain parked at the front door:

We need someone to do this job. No one wants to do it. Let’s pray about it and see who feels moved in their heart.

We have prayed about it. Still no one wants to do it. Let’s pray about it again and see who feels moved in their heart this time.

We have prayed about again. Still no one wants to do it. Let’s go home and pray and search our consciences to see if we are being like Jesus and serving others or only thinking of our own comfort.*

Alternatively we could honestly admit that it’s a bit inconvenient and no one wants to do it, but ask if anyone would be willing to make a sacrifice and volunteer to do it anyway because it really is necessary for x reasons and honestly it isn’t so bad really and we’d be highly grateful. Doesn’t tickle the same spiritual itch tho.

*I should probably add that I wasn’t at the meeting where this happened, it was relayed to me later at another meeting which thankfully happened over dinner and where I was therefore sufficiently close to a bottle of red wine to keep me from saying something that would have offended someone. This is a good thing for all concerned.

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Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:


I wonder about the shopping list - I mean, I know we make jokes about people praying for parking spaces, but does that sort of thing really go on any more?

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Of course it's allowed. It's mandatory! Especially knowing that God can do nothing about it.

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Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
This seems a good thread to add my post church rant this morning. If I hear one more, one more sermon gently chiding the congregation about how we shouldn't go to God in prayer with a shopping list, I'll have a massive sense of humour failure*. I have a mentally ill child. There are weeks, and this has been one, where I wonder if she'll even see adulthood, never mind lead a happy life. Too fucking right I have a shopping list.

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fwiw, there seems to be a whole lotta "shopping list" prayers in the Bible, including the Lord's prayer ("give us this day our daily bread..."). To suggest you branch out to include other sorts of prayers (if you're not already)-- e.g. listening prayer, sure, fine. But to suggest you not tell God the most aching desires of your heart is insane, and in come cases-- like yours-- cruel. You have my permission to kick the preacher in the bum.

Adding your child to my shopping list.



(*some cross-posting here- apologies. But perhaps helpful to know we're in agreement on this one...*)

[ 07. February 2016, 23:29: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Originally posted by Martin60:
SvitlanaV2 God can't NOT pay full attention. We need to invoke that FACT. In His fullest care, concern, hope, most intimate, personal love. And HELPLESS provision. He's done ALL He possibly can. He has lifted us up in His Son who came down. Naked. That was, is His all.

Wither the Holy Spirit? I have no idea. Beyond that I believe in His complete presence in the vacuum of His utter absence, testifying to the universally reconciling Son.

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I try to think like this, but my brain tends to rebel and ask for either/or.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by Evangeline:

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Originally posted by Sipech:

When it comes to explaining things to children, there's a further complication that a pithy answer may be taken at face value at first, but only later do they come to think things through in greater depth.

I've seen this a lot amongst anti-evangelicals, who when given simple answers at a young age to complicated questions, later come to think that they're parents or pastors were being misleading or thick, when in fact they were just trying to be helpful and tailor an answer to their audience's level of understanding; and maybe getting it wrong.

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Yes, this! The Godly Play movement tries to address this very problem (I'm not an expert in Godly play but have read some of the books and like the underlying philosophy).

As somebody who works in children's ministry this thread is very interesting.

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moving down that tangent...

I've worked with Godly Play for 6 years now, and would say it goes a wee bit too far in the other direction, by failing to recognize that critical thinking is developmental-- that children grow in their ability to wrestle with ambiguity and mystery, and need some foundation for that work. Pretty much every other children's curriculum does the opposite-- underestimates children's intellectual ability and offers pat answers/ interpretations-- often devoid of context.

Godly Play is the opposite-- overestimating children's cognitive development. It asks thoughtful "I wonder" questions (sometimes to the point of tedium) that are quite lovely, but never ever offers any "point" itself. Which does encourage thoughtful interaction, but can also lead to a sort of postmodern reader-centered approach that, ironically, also rips the narrative from context. And it's admirable attention to the entire biblical canon means that sometimes it is presenting a story that simply is not age-appropriate-- which, when coupled with the lack of any real "point" can be honestly terrifying (see the horrible parable of the fishes).

However, I've found it far easier to "tweak" Godly Play-- skipping over the really terrible stories until children are a bit older; adding my own thoughts re the point always after the kids have engaged the "I wonder" questions-- much easier fixes than trying to rewrite an entire lesson that dogmatically pushes a point that seems far removed from the overall context. [/QB]

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