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Source: (consider it) Thread: Cheating Students!
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Apparently $30K a year doesn't stretch to cover a chair. Wrangling a whole 'nother-- and much larger-- classroom is beyond my imagination.

This is why you can only do it for exams, meaning things at the end of the year, or at the end of the degree. It's not terribly space-efficient.

This is more or less what I expect an exam to look like.

We don't have any more classrooms at the end of the year than we do in the middle of the semester-- do you?
[Confused]

Oh, wait-- you mean like qualifying exams, that sort of thing-- capstone exams for an entire degree program, rather than for a single course?

[ 08. February 2016, 21:46: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
We don't have any more classrooms at the end of the year than we do in the middle of the semester-- do you?
[Confused]

You have to gain space with scheduling. If a standard course is 3 hours of teaching time per week, you can reduce classroom occupancy by a factor of 3 by scheduling one one-hour exam in exam week.

That's the kind of thing I mean.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
We don't have any more classrooms at the end of the year than we do in the middle of the semester-- do you?
[Confused]

You have to gain space with scheduling. If a standard course is 3 hours of teaching time per week, you can reduce classroom occupancy by a factor of 3 by scheduling one one-hour exam in exam week.

That's the kind of thing I mean.

Yeah, our final exams are scheduled by The Powers That Be, and they in fact have done the reverse-- given us more time, but not more space.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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american piskie
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# 593

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quote:
Originally posted by Yangtze:

(Actually my entire degree was based on exams taken Mon-Fri in one week and it would have been hard to cheat there - the desks were about 2m apart from each other.)

The young have extraordinarily sharp eyes!

I once read a nice study which showed how one could extract from the marks obtained by students sitting in an m x n array the values of m and n.

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Amorya

Ship's tame galoot
# 2652

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Of course, if the student wrote the Wikipedia entry... [Biased]

…Then they'd score nothing for reusing the same work in two places. You do still have to cite yourself if you're reusing your own words!

Just like you have to cite the lecturer if you got something out of the lecture notes. And that applies to concepts as well as direct quotes. If your lecturer mentions a study that showed a certain result, you either look up the original article (and cite that), or you cite it "as cited in" the lecture notes.

The main rule is that the citation should be the thing you actually read.

I used to mark first year undergraduate psychology. It took many people quite a long time to realise that you couldn't say anything without either a citation or some demonstration of original research or a process of logical deduction. No "Most people believe the sky is blue" or similar — show me where you got the info from!

I once did a full plagiarism check on the 40 papers I was marking. No computer software to help me, I was only given hard copies. I found about 15 that counted as plagiarised by the strict definition. Three of those actually copied stuff. I sent back their papers alongside highlighted photocopies of the relevant pages from books, and let the admins deal with them. (They must have thought they were so clever, picking books rather than journal articles — the latter being searchable electronically. I just spent a lot of time in the library!) The other 12 it was mainly that their citations didn't quite cut muster, it didn't look like intentional cheating. So they got a helpful comment telling them how to not do it again.

The worst I got was an end of year project. The students were meant to work in groups to conduct an experiment, but do the statistical analysis and the writeup/conclusions by themselves. I had one pair send me one writeup with two names on the front. They tried to claim that nobody had told them they couldn't do that, but it was on the handout that explained the project, we'd mentioned it over and over again in the lectures, and if they'd come to the drop-in sessions they'd have been told it there too. At that point, my sympathy runs out!

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gog
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# 15615

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
RainbowGirl's viva is also a fine idea, although it's rather manpower-intensive, and has some weaknesses: you can't do "blind" (anonymous) marking, and it's difficult to cross-mark a sample to ensure even standards across multiple examiners.

We had this for one course, the viva was recorded so it could be standardised and the external examiner could hear a sample
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Penny S
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# 14768

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If I wanted to cite this in a discussion somewhere, what is the source that I would need to cite? I don't think "I read it on a message board" would quite demolish the person in question.

From Amorya

quote:
Just like you have to cite the lecturer if you got something out of the lecture notes. And that applies to concepts as well as direct quotes. If your lecturer mentions a study that showed a certain result, you either look up the original article (and cite that), or you cite it "as cited in" the lecture notes.


[ 10. February 2016, 16:06: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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see how to cite a post in UBB discussion. I would cite username, date, thread title and post number boards and give a url with date accessed.

Jengie

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Hmm, I still don't think that would make it quite clear to the person concerned, should the need arise, that his contention that there is no need to cite things heard in lectures to amateur groups. That they are fair game.
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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The insistence on citation has become a fucking disease. Thanks to a combination of the desire to fight plagiarism and the vast increase in the power to detect it, everyone has swung so far in one direction that you can't sneeze without being required to show who you're quoting.

The mindset that every sentence you write must be referenced actually discourages people from coming up with their own ideas or expression, because it discourages them from combining two separate elements and fusing them into something new. Because almost nothing anyone says is TOTALLY new.

Copyright doesn't actually protect ideas, only specific expressions of ideas. The proposition that you have to credit the lecture notes for concepts strikes me as absurd. What the fuck's left?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doone
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# 18470

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The insistence on citation has become a fucking disease. Thanks to a combination of the desire to fight plagiarism and the vast increase in the power to detect it, everyone has swung so far in one direction that you can't sneeze without being required to show who you're quoting.

The mindset that every sentence you write must be referenced actually discourages people from coming up with their own ideas or expression, because it discourages them from combining two separate elements and fusing them into something new. Because almost nothing anyone says is
TOTALLY new
Copyright doesn't actually protect ideas, only specific expressions of ideas. The proposition that you have to credit the lecture notes for concepts strikes me as absurd. What the fuck's left?

[Overused]
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Net Spinster
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# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

Copyright doesn't actually protect ideas, only specific expressions of ideas. The proposition that you have to credit the lecture notes for concepts strikes me as absurd. What the fuck's left?

New ideas? One should not confuse copyright with plagiarism. One can plagiarize whole works without infringing copyright (e.g., just choose a work outside copyright or use the idea but rephrase it entirely in your own words and present it as your own work) and infringe copyright without plagiarizing (properly quote and cite the entire work). And then there is the opposite of plagiarism, citing something that doesn't exist or creating an entire work and claiming someone else (usually well-known and dead) wrote it.

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spinner of webs

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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The problem is to misunderstand the task. Plagiarism is to pretend that evidence that supports your idea is your own thought. In claiming the work of others, you weaken your argument as you end up asserting it instead of saying "X agrees with me". The task, therefore, is to find the evidence wherever, weight it and come to a conclusion based on that. Plagiarise and you lessen the positive evidence in your favour.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
The problem is to misunderstand the task. Plagiarism is to pretend that evidence that supports your idea is your own thought. In claiming the work of others, you weaken your argument as you end up asserting it instead of saying "X agrees with me". The task, therefore, is to find the evidence wherever, weight it and come to a conclusion based on that. Plagiarise and you lessen the positive evidence in your favour.

Jengie

Are you free this afternoon to come explain this to my class of university students? This is precisely what I have been struggling to convey lo these many weeks.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
In claiming the work of others, you weaken your argument as you end up asserting it instead of saying "X agrees with me".

Pretty much. This is also why it's not necessary to provide citations for things that are common knowledge. I am entirely free to say "the sky is commonly thought of as being blue" without having to cite a study where thousands of random people were asked what colour the sky is.

But it has to actually be common knowledge, at least among your target audience. If you start by asserting that most people think the sky is green, then any arguments that you make based on that aren't going to be very persuasive.

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