Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The millstone that is S**** L******
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: It's Lent ...
Ah, I forgot ... you're Anglican now.
As a Separatist Nonconformist, I am of course obliged to eat chocolate and have little tipples during Lent
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: No Christmas, no Easter, no fiddle-faddle or fol-de-rol ... just plain and simple NT Christianity which is so easy to observe, implement and practice if only we were to give ourselves to the plain-meaning of the text and keep ourselves separate from all worldly systems ...
And, of course (following the example of Edward Gosse's "Father and Son"), we must throw the Christmas pudding in the bin and sack the cook who dared to make such an unholy thing and esteem one day above another ... [ 29. February 2016, 12:31: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: It's Lent ...
Ah, I forgot ... you're Anglican now.
As a Separatist Nonconformist, I am of course obliged to eat chocolate and have little tipples during Lent
Gordon? Gorden Cheng? Is that you? When did you become a Baptist?
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Sorry ... you must be thinking of someone else! (Or am I channelling him? )
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: But it's not the Orthodox Lent yet ... which is another nail in the coffin for nefarious Big T Tradition ... you see the Big T Tradition people can't even agree among themselves on the precise date of Easter.
How then can we trust them on anything else?
Far better to rely on the plain-meaning of scripture as understood by Steve Langton ...
No Christmas, no Easter, no fiddle-faddle or fol-de-rol ... just plain and simple NT Christianity which is so easy to observe, implement and practice if only we were to give ourselves to the plain-meaning of the text and keep ourselves separate from all worldly systems save that of the local model railway club because that is chaste, innocent and above board whilst everything else is compromised, Constantinian and yea verily beareth the marks of Iniquity ...
Absolutely right. You cannot beat simple old time Gospel religion. Preferably with a bishop, deacons, subdeacons, plenty of incense, seven candles on the altar and gin by the gallon to follow. (but not in Lent, if you can work out when it may be).
-------------------- A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
No crucifers or acolytes? Standards must be slipping.
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
I just took that as read. What else would you have in a simple little Gospel service?
-------------------- A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Standards are slipping. They don't use the Lectionary at our parish church, the vicar only wears a dog-collar at the 9am service, there are no robes, no candles on the altar but hideous 10-inch high plastic 3D lettering that spells 'Jesus' ... and no choir, no procession and the brass cross that was on the altar has been replaced by a coloured glass one that is so transparent you don't even notice it until you're stood close up ...
I'm the only one who bothers to mention the liturgical calendar in any way, shape or form ... and generally when I do the intercessions ... about every 5 or 6 weeks or so ...
Then, horror of horrors, when editing the church magazine this weekend I find out that due to participator feedback they're going to 'rebrand' the All-Age Family Services as 'Fun Sunday' ...
Will this be enough to tip me across the Bosphorus or the Tiber ... ?
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
FWIW ... I started out Anglican (CiW) but dropped out when I was expected to start confirmation classes ... I then bobbed back briefly when I was about 16 to a 'Higher' parish t'other side of my home-town but didn't stick around long ...
Then, when I was at university I had a full-blown evangelical conversion and after exposure to the Brethren and dabbling with Methodism for a short-while (I also used to attend a Baptist church in South Wales during university holidays), headed out via charismatic Anglicanism to the wild and woolly restorationist scene that seemed to be carrying all before it at that time ...
I then spent six years quite happily as a Baptist, but always knew I was somewhat 'higher' than they were when it came to the Eucharist and so on ... but my more liturgical predilections were tolerated and respected far more than than I've found them to be within evangelical Anglicanism ...
Funny that ... or perhaps not.
In my experience, Baptists feel a lot less threatened by these things than some evangelical Anglicans are ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: Will this be enough to tip me across the Bosphorus or the Tiber ... ?
No, the Tweed: "Welcome to the Church of Scotland".
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Will we see him making the trek across the Midlands to Corby every Sunday, do you think? Choice of two there. Or is the Liverpool CofS still going?
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Gamaliel, so what you're saying is that you've just never really stuck at anything, you flighty thing?
quote: Then, horror of horrors, when editing the church magazine this weekend I find out that due to participator feedback they're going to 'rebrand' the All-Age Family Services as 'Fun Sunday'
That is so easy to quash.
"What? So the rest of them are 'No Fun Sunday' are they?"
Just say it loudly about the place a few times in front of the right people.
(Reminds me of the time at our place when we ran Contemporary Services in the evening. They were really good - popular, good message, accessible, packed the place, created a desire to be there etc. But they got slowly killed, starting with "You can't call it a contemporary service, it implies everything else we do isn't contemporary.", "Yes, it does, doesn't it?", "Well, I find that offensive", "So do I, but probably for very different reasons ...")
-------------------- Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Bibaculus: Absolutely right. You cannot beat simple old time Gospel religion. Preferably with a bishop, deacons, subdeacons, plenty of incense, seven candles on the altar and gin by the gallon to follow. (but not in Lent, if you can work out when it may be).
ROTFL!!!
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
No, I don't think that I've been flighty - 18 years in a charismatic evangelical outfit, six years in a Baptist church and the last nine years in my local parish church even though a lot of what goes on there gets on my wick.
I did look around a few churches during the first 18 months after my conversion but I stuck things out for a heck of a long time thereafter ..
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
The Baptist church was in the city where we lived before moving here ... for work reasons.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Cottontail
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# 12234
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Albertus: Will we see him making the trek across the Midlands to Corby every Sunday, do you think? Choice of two there. Or is the Liverpool CofS still going?
Presbytery of England: Corby St Andrew's Corby St Ninian's Guernsey Jersey Liverpool London Crown Court London St Columba's Newcastle
There is also Carlisle and Longtown, and one in Berwick-upon-Tweed and Lowick. Got to be one near you somewhere, Gamaliel.
-------------------- "I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Did I tell you that I was a recovering Calvinist as well as a recovering charismatic?
In which case the CofS wouldn't make a lot of sense.
I've only been to one CofS service - in Scotland - just across The Tweed as it happens.
I like their epiclesis.
Other than that, I couldn't see a lot to recommend it - a bit dour, a bit dreich ... monochrome ...
There are elements I admire in Reformed theology, of course but overall ... nah ... Knox can take a running jump ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@Snags - I'd have no intention of subverting 'Fun Sunday. My iwn fun that Sunday would consist of staying at home or going somewhere else and congratulating myself that you wouldn't catch me going to a 'fun' service and doing the little actiojs and all or whatever is supposed to be fun about it ...
Fun in Pharisaism.
Don't knock it till you've tried it ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Ah. You have been to one service in one church, but now know all about us. So if I attend your church, and manage to land on Fun Sunday, I will never go near a Church of England again? Is that how it works?
-------------------- "I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
You could always cross the Tweed/Solway Gamaliel and come to the Scottish Episcopal Church...
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
You can come to the Dutch Church in London.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This is Hell, Cottontail, I'm allowed to be dismissive ...
If I were being more Purgatorial or Heavenly, or if I'd been a Mystery Worshipper, I'd have been a lot more complimentary ...
I liked the minister and had a good chat with him after the service and the people were welcoming and friendly.
There, does that make you feel better?
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Besides, I have no intention of ever going to one of the 'Fun Sunday' services at our parish church.
I would rather stick pins in my eyes.
I'd rather walk 5,000 miles and then I'd walk 5,000 more to be the one who rocks up at your Kirk, Cottontail to avoid having to attend a fucking 'Fun Sunday' service which would be about as much fun as having my balls clamped in a vice and rubbed with Emery Cloth ... or having an umbrella inserted in my rectum and then opened ...
Or having my ears planed down to my skull or my scalp dipped in pigeon droppings as I dangle upside over a pit of venomous toads ...
Other than that, I'm sure it'd be fine ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: 'Fun Sunday' service which would be about as much fun as having my balls clamped in a vice and rubbed with Emery Cloth
You have the wickedest fantasies.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
by Gamaliel; quote: But it's not the Orthodox Lent yet ... which is another nail in the coffin for nefarious Big T Tradition ... you see the Big T Tradition people can't even agree among themselves on the precise date of Easter.
How then can we trust them on anything else?
Far better to rely on the plain-meaning of scripture as understood by Steve Langton ...
No Christmas, no Easter, no fiddle-faddle or fol-de-rol ... just plain and simple NT Christianity which is so easy to observe, implement and practice if only we were to give ourselves to the plain-meaning of the text
Um... Colossians 2;16 anybody... quote: Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, Col 2:16 (YLT)
Who, on that basis, needs to be fussy about the date of Easter...?
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
by GeeD; (according to Steve L ...) quote: All the ills of the world and the church in particular flow from the establishment of the C of E, ignoring that the vast majority of the world's Christians do not belong to an established church.
“All the ills of the world” flow from the human rebellion against God known as 'sin'. One of those ills, not exclusive to Christianity, is the practice of having 'established' religions which coerce people, fight wars, and persecute dissent - Islam is another example, and currently of considerable concern, making the issue rather important and making it very necessary for Christians to get that one right. (And yes, I am aware that ancient Israel in the OT had effectively an 'established church'; I'll eventually post about that on a thread on the topic....). And BTW, the CofE is NOT the only 'established-or-similar' Christian church....
Many – not 'all' – the 'ills of … the church in particular' flow from the situation set up in the 4th century CE whereby Christianity became the 'established' religion of the Roman Empire in defiance of the NT teaching on the relationship of state to church (or alternatively expressed, of God's people to the world in which they live).
It is true that “the vast majority of the world's Christians do not belong to an established church”. It is also nevertheless true that an awful lot of them, probably still a majority even today, believe in the related broader concept of a 'Christian country' in which their religion is privileged and they expect Christian ideals to be favoured by the laws of the state (as in the current disputes over SSM). This appears to be one of the problems of some of the African branches of Anglicanism, and clearly is a problem of the so-called Religious Right/Moral Majority in the USA....
The hangover of establishment attitudes remains a considerable problem; and for Christians and everybody else in the UK the continued factual legal establishment of the Anglicans remains a very real problem and source of confusion that we could do without..
by Gamaliel; quote: And whenever anyone asks him what 'being separate from the world' in practice actually means in a modern, globalised economy and mutually interdependent society he can't or won't answer or engage but instead lobs out a few proof-texts as if that settles the matter ...
As I have in fact said clearly quite a few times now, it first and foremost means getting it right about the formal 'state/church' relationship. Really really get it into our collective Christian heads that we are not meant to be running the state, specially favoured in the state, etc. Accept the humbler position that the NT indicates for us as 'resident aliens'. I don't begin to claim to be an expert on everywhere that should then lead. It shouldn't lead to the kind of extreme separation seen in the Amish or 'Exclusive' Brethren, or even among Mennonites until quite recently (one should bear in mind that Mennonite practice was somewhat skewed by a need to be separate not only from 'the world' simply, but also a point that really shouldn't have been needed, that is, to be distinct from an improperly established nominally 'Christian' set-up which tended to actively persecute them). Modern Mennonites and those of many different denominations in the UK Anabaptist Network are contributing considerably to discussion of the way to go once the basic shift has been made. I'm not here to lay down the law about that but to encourage people to join in that discussion.
also Gamaliel; quote: Whilst the real reason is that he doesn't have a fucking clue but hides behind proof-text mantras, a woodenly literal approach to scriptural interpretation and indeed a virtual denial that he is engaging in interpretation in the first place but only presenting us with the 'plain meaning of scripture' which Anglicans, Orthodox, Catholics and others disregard because they aren't as obedient to the NT as he is …
At least my 'mantras' are biblical and carry some weight, at least for Christians, beyond my own personal opinion. And I would point out that I've repeatedly stressed 'context', both in terms of the immediate surroundings of a text and the place of the text in the Bible as a whole – unlike many examples you'll find attempting to justify 'Constantinianism', I try very hard not to use isolated out-of-context texts that distort rather than truly interpret.
Of course I'm 'interpreting' – the idea that I think I'm not is one of many things Gamaliel keeps spouting about me no matter how often I write things that demonstrate he's getting it wrong. He seems determined to stick me into a narrow stereotypical box of 'his' idea of an Anabaptist – and I don't recognise it as me at all. Far from being 'woodenly literal' I've repeatedly pointed out the inadequacy of such excessive literalism; and I'd point out that as an 'Aspie' I'm acutely aware of such issues and of the need to give very full weight to figures of speech, literary conventions, etc. Just I also understand that legitimate interpretation means I am subject to the text rather than making it mean whatever I feel like or whatever suits a worldly church's hierarchy....
As for 'plain meaning', look at some of Eliab's self-inflicted contortions and convolutions in the 'Interpretation of anti-gay texts' thread in DH. It's all too clear that he recognises the 'plain meaning'; just he doesn't like it and is determined to somehow – anyhow! - get round it to have instead the 'interpretation' he wants. This is typical of the reality for 'liberal' theology – they may abstractly talk about the idea of 'making the Bible mean whatever you like', but when they have to do concrete specific interpretation they find that the plain meaning is all too clear even after making all normal allowances for figures of speech etc.
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Idiot. You just gone and confirmed your myopic reputation.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Steve Langton: At least my 'mantras' are biblical
The Three B's: Biblical But Bollocks.
-------------------- arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ... I'm not sure about 'fantasies' Mousethief, but the idea of a 'Fun Sunday' service appeals just as much as having my goolies sanded down in a vice ... or, even worse, having Steve Langton reiterate what he's already reiterated on a million and one other threads here on Ship ...
Talk about Chinese Water Torture ...
Now he's come down to the Nether Regions to defend himself he's making it abundantly clear why he was called to Hell in the first place ...
Just as a leopard cannot change its spots, so Steve Langton can't turn the record over and play the B-side nor can he get the stylus to move once the record's stuck ...
'Constantinian ... [clunk] ... Constantinian ... [clunk] ... Constantinian ... [clunk] ...'
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Gamaliel: 'Constantinian ... [clunk] ... Constantinian ... [clunk] ... Constantinian ... [clunk] ...'
I wonder if I can put a techno beat under that.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If he could then perhaps they could play it at 'Fun Sunday' services, thereby making them even more infernal than they are likely to be already ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
We could then add some scritch-scratch noises from the sound of the sandpaper going back and forth across my scrotum ...
'Constantinian [clunk] Constantinian [clunk] scritch-scratch ... scritchity-scratch ... Constantinian [clunk] Constantinian [scritch] Constantinian [scratch ... Clunk ... scritchity-scratch ...] ...'
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Do you not think that you just might be getting a little bit carried away? [ 01. March 2016, 15:59: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: We could then add some scritch-scratch noises from the sound of the sandpaper going back and forth across my scrotum ...
Lose the fun Sundays someone looks like having far too much fun on a Tuesday already.
-------------------- mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Carried away? Loosen up Baptist Trainfan. We don't all get our rocks off over model railway engines ...
Haven't any of you ever heard of hyperbole?
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
BT takes the huffs and throws his toy trains out of the pram ...
Actually, I haven't got a model railway!
PS Is "hyperbole" like "Superbowl", but with more lanes, a better cafe and a bigger car-park? [ 01. March 2016, 17:04: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Hyperbolic schmyperbolic hyperbollock if you ask me. Sherry doesn't get you near that sort of stuff.
-------------------- mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by Gamaliel; quote: Now he's come down to the Nether Regions to defend himself he's making it abundantly clear why he was called to Hell in the first place ...
Just as a leopard cannot change its spots, so Steve Langton can't turn the record over and play the B-side nor can he get the stylus to move once the record's stuck ...
Well if you - and GeeD - will keep over and over repeating inaccurate and exaggerated versions of me which I need to point out are wrong.... (rather than actually answering my points so we can move on....)
I've been considering. Part of my reputation as a 'single issue' person is simply that currently I get limited net access and limited free time generally. Combine that with the simple fact that basically Aspies don't do 'small talk' and obviously I'll spend quite a bit of my time Shipboard on my main concern.
The other side, however, is just this - that the 'Constantinian' issue really is that pervasive through huge areas of Christian life and even more, Christian interaction with the world and the world's opinions of Christians. It's not "I've only got a hammer so everything looks like a nail" - more like "Oh no, nails again, where's my hammer? When will the idiots get rid of the nails so I can do something else??"
And just to really annoy you - on the 'Big T' Tradition thing above. The thing that is the real 'nail in the coffin' of the Big T tradition business is the very fact that 'Big T' Tradition seems capable of spending endless time on trivial matters like the date of Easter -
-despite Paul's rather cool approach to the whole business of special days and seasons and festivals -
- while quite cheerfully also spending centuries ignoring the Constantinian business and its lethal consequences ... inter alia, the criminalisation of gay sex rather than it being a pastoral issue. (Inter 'alia' including, remember, religious wars and the Inquisitions in the name of Jesus....)
Actually the main need for a fixed Easter date would appear to be the dating of what are now secular holidays in the countries of former 'Christendom' - without that, we wouldn't need to bother so much about it in the church either....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Steve Langton: I've been considering. Part of my reputation as a 'single issue' person is simply that currently I get limited net access and limited free time generally. Combine that with the simple fact that basically Aspies don't do 'small talk' and obviously I'll spend quite a bit of my time Shipboard on my main concern.
And, have you managed to convince a lot of people already?
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Steve Langton: by Gamaliel; quote: Now he's come down to the Nether Regions to defend himself he's making it abundantly clear why he was called to Hell in the first place ...
Just as a leopard cannot change its spots, so Steve Langton can't turn the record over and play the B-side nor can he get the stylus to move once the record's stuck ...
Well if you - and GeeD - will keep over and over repeating inaccurate and exaggerated versions of me which I need to point out are wrong.... (rather than actually answering my points so we can move on....)
I've been considering. Part of my reputation as a 'single issue' person is simply that currently I get limited net access and limited free time generally. Combine that with the simple fact that basically Aspies don't do 'small talk' and obviously I'll spend quite a bit of my time Shipboard on my main concern.
The other side, however, is just this - that the 'Constantinian' issue really is that pervasive through huge areas of Christian life and even more, Christian interaction with the world and the world's opinions of Christians. It's not "I've only got a hammer so everything looks like a nail" - more like "Oh no, nails again, where's my hammer? When will the idiots get rid of the nails so I can do something else??"
And just to really annoy you - on the 'Big T' Tradition thing above. The thing that is the real 'nail in the coffin' of the Big T tradition business is the very fact that 'Big T' Tradition seems capable of spending endless time on trivial matters like the date of Easter -
-despite Paul's rather cool approach to the whole business of special days and seasons and festivals -
- while quite cheerfully also spending centuries ignoring the Constantinian business and its lethal consequences ... inter alia, the criminalisation of gay sex rather than it being a pastoral issue. (Inter 'alia' including, remember, religious wars and the Inquisitions in the name of Jesus....)
Actually the main need for a fixed Easter date would appear to be the dating of what are now secular holidays in the countries of former 'Christendom' - without that, we wouldn't need to bother so much about it in the church either....
I was about to ask a ridiculous question: have you any idea how completely absurd you sound? Of course you haven't - or you revel in it.
Same old bollocks. At the same length.
I don't care what Paul thought about tradition. He was convinced that the second coming would be during his lifetime. The rest of us acknowledge the 2000 years the church has spent getting over the fact that it didn't. You haven't. I would say 'ho hum' about that too, except that you won't shut the fuck up and just get on with your own solipsistic perfection. So go on: fuck off and build it.
-------------------- Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Steve--
Your posts would be easier to read if you kept most of them to 2-3 paragraphs.
Too much text in one post, and too many details in one post, are very hard on the reader. It's like you've dropped an encyclopedia on our heads. Ouch!
And when you do that all the time, you drive people away.
Your posting style is much more of a problem than anything you have to say. [ 01. March 2016, 21:30: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Your posting style is much more of a problem than anything you have to say.
Oh, I don't know...
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Trouble is, Steve you bash away at nails that are paper-clips, panel pins and needles ... the only tool you have is a hammer.
So, when it comes to African bishops and same-sex relationships the issue for you is their Constantinianism ... which is fair enough ... but there's more to it than that. Their fundamentalism for instance.
I don't see you wielding your hammer at that ...
On the Easter thing - I love Easter and I'm quite keen on the idea of observing a liturgical calendar to a certain extent ... and I was keen on that even when I was a member of a Baptist church ... so it ain't only a Big T thing.
That doesn't mean I don't think it's daft that people make a kerfuffle over the date of Easter ...
But if I'm going to point the finger at Big T Tradition people over an issue like that, I've also got to be prepared to take some flak for daft things I might do on a small t tradition level.
That's the beef I have. Selective and out of context proof texts, a lack of nuance and banging on and on and on about the same issue over and over again - even on threads where it is of no relevance whatsoever to the subject in hand.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: Trouble is, Steve you bash away at nails that are paper-clips, panel pins and needles ... the only tool you have is a hammer.
Panel pins are nails... Yeah, Constantinian 'nails' come in varying sizes - and I do use other tools than hammers anyway. But like I said, pervasive problem....
quote:
So, when it comes to African bishops and same-sex relationships the issue for you is their Constantinianism ... which is fair enough ... but there's more to it than that. Their fundamentalism for instance.
I don't see you wielding your hammer at that ...
There are actually a few more problems with the African bishops than that, and they are broadly 'Constantinian' problems - particularly in terms of their relationships to Muslims in their territories. (and that 'fair enough' seems to recognise that in this case you see that problem at least to some extent yourself)
And put simply, the same-sex relationships thing becomes quite a bit different when you really really get the assorted 'Christian country' ideas out of the way.
As you know I consider the really 'dumb wooden literal' fundamentalism a problem myself. However, considered simply as 'taking the Bible seriously' and as 'going back to basics' (especially pre-Constantine basics), Fundamentalism is just following the most reliable source we have for what Christianity is supposed to be. And if occasionally it conflicts with popular worldly ideas - we are meant to be an alternative, you know....
quote:
On the Easter thing - I love Easter and I'm quite keen on the idea of observing a liturgical calendar to a certain extent ... and I was keen on that even when I was a member of a Baptist church ... so it ain't only a Big T thing.
That doesn't mean I don't think it's daft that people make a kerfuffle over the date of Easter ...
I'm not all that unhappy about Easter - but don't get me started on the shambles that 'Christmas' has become in recent years ... and as for 'Father Christmas' ....
But I think Paul was right that anything of that kind can all too easily turn into a form of slavery in which the church ends up serving the sabbath and other feasts rather than the feasts being truly for the church.
quote:
But if I'm going to point the finger at Big T Tradition people over an issue like that, I've also got to be prepared to take some flak for daft things I might do on a small t tradition level.
You've slightly missed the point. Yeah, I am prepared to 'take flak' at the 'small-t tradition level' - indeed a willingness to take that flak and amend things by Scripture should be the big difference between the two versions of 'tradition'.
But the finger I'm pointing is about the basic uselessness of a 'Tradition' that strains at the 'gnat' of a date for Easter and similar matters while swallowing the 'camel' of Constantinianism and all its problems. (And that point applies whether or not you consider Constantinianism part of the 'Tradition' - a 'Tradition' that was of any use would have protected the Church against Constantine/Theodosius and their errors.)
quote:
That's the beef I have. Selective and out of context proof texts, a lack of nuance and banging on and on and on about the same issue over and over again - even on threads where it is of no relevance whatsoever to the subject in hand.
Look, with people already going on at me for the length of my posts, I'm not often going to go into all the depth I know of on the context of proof texts and such matters. Can you show that my quote of Colossians 2 is so very far 'out of context'?? (in that case the immediate context goes right back to at least Col 2;8 with a specific reference to 'the traditions of men'... and then on to the end of the chapter.... And to me the context would also include Jesus' teaching on the sabbath, including the bit I semi-quoted earlier....).
'Lack of nuance' - like Eliab recognising the 'plain meaning' but going every which way to avoid it? And from where I'm standing it's actually that approach which looks to be too 'black and white' and lacking 'nuance'. And you might at least consider the possibility that you're confusing between real 'nuance' and just swirling but insubstantial fog....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by Le Roc; quote: And, have you managed to convince a lot of people already?
In the rarefied and often confusing world of the Ship, apparently not. But out in the real world where the old state church stuff is still for many people a real problem with Christianity, and the Muslim equivalent of 'Constantinianism' a quite present worry, my ideas do seem to create interest and both help non-Christians to see the faith in a new and helpful way, and also help Christians to feel confident about their faith because they can answer such concerns...
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Rosa Winkel: It's been absolutely ages, thank God, that I met someone who thought they could close off a conversation and win the argument by stating one bible verse with no context or reference to other bible verses.
That wasn't quite what I was doing with my quote from Colossians - nor what I generally aim at with other quotes I use. I at least should have had a reasonable expectation on the Ship that Shipmates like Gamaliel would be aware of the wider context themselves - I was pointing in summary form to the whole of Paul's argument in Colossians 2, in quick response to a bit of a tangent in Gamaliel's post.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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