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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Introverts are bloody selfish!
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
One of the great things about introverts is we're often very good at putting on a front. So we may be smiling because we like you, or we may be smiling and imagining what it would be like to wear your skin.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Yes, I'm aware of that; horoscope writers and MBTI practitioners (much the same thing) have done a number on that one for millennia in the one case and decades in the other. But perhaps what people are talking on here is sociability, and it's just that the terms "introversion" and "extraversion" have got appropriated from psychology (where they means something slightly different) to refer to sociability, much as to the discomfiture of palaeontologists the term "dinosaur" is appropriated to mean anything reptilian and extinct?
So, regardless of whether we equate this sociability with extraversion, unscientific use of the latter term as that may be, is there still a conversation to be had about differences in sociability and tolerance and understanding between people of different sociabilities?
One of the problems, I think, and one that leads somewhat to these rainbow statements, is that of polarisation. The human race is not divided into two groups. It has a scale, with some people more towards one end than the other. Probably the people who get most excited about it are the ones particularly near one end, because their sociability/extraversion {pick your term} or lack thereof is a significant factor in their day to day interactions with other people. But I would imagine that it's true for everyone that a social interaction can be (note can be) invigorating, and equally that too much of it can be tiring, that being able to recharge solitarily is useful to most people, but too much solitariness becomes trying. It's just at what point being in a group, or on one's own, flips from being a plus to a minus. Those who consider themselves (in the pop-psych sense) introverts are probably those with a low threshold of interaction becoming tiring; similarly the self-diagnosed extraverts have a low boredom threshold when they're on their own.
I work from home once a week. I love it, being away from the office and all the chat and interruption. I'd like to do it four days a week. But probably not five.
[X-post - response to Doublethink]
[ 16. March 2016, 22:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I'm intrigued by how many people seem to manage the art of never being alone and have company 24 hours a day, without actually realizing it.
This is likely to be true of anyone in a relationship and full-time employment, especially if they have children, or lift-share on their way to a job in an open plan office. It's also true of people in shared houses or flats, and people who constantly keep in touch on their mobiles.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Of course being introverted isn't a choice - but acting as if extroverts are like this simply to be annoying is a choice!
Here's the problem: say there are people who value quiet, and peace, and other people who value noise and communication. That's fine, but put them in the same space, and the noisy people drown out the quiet ones. A quiet neighbour won't stop a noisy person being noisy, but a noisy neighbour stops a quiet person from having quiet.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Oh bugger off.
I spend my life having to justify a preference to recharge my batteries in peace and quiet.
I like people. I enjoy people. I just need my quiet time.
We all need our quiet time. But cringing when someone talks to you isn't about 'enjoying recharging batteries' or enjoying quiet time.
Why not try showing those people that you enjoy them?
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
You try spending a week completely alone and then complain about how narcissistic we all are.
You mean I wouldn't like it or I would? Not sure what you are getting at?
I don't cringe when I talk to people. For fucks sake - how many times? I am not shy or anxious. I enjoy people and being around people. Don't imply I never show appreciation for the people around me.
If you are an extrovert you get your energy from socialising, after a week you would feel tired and drained from being completely alone. So do that before you complain about people who feel tired and drained from constant socialising.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm intrigued by how many people seem to manage the art of never being alone and have company 24 hours a day, without actually realizing it.
This is likely to be true of anyone in a relationship and full-time employment, especially if they have children, or lift-share on their way to a job in an open plan office. It's also true of people in shared houses or flats, and people who constantly keep in touch on their mobiles.
So non-hellish. I have a full time job as a nurse, this means when I am at work I usually have a lot of face to face contact with patients who require a lot of emotional support and empathy. I love my job.
I can't afford a house yet so I live in a shared house.
I am a millenial so yes I have my phone a lot.
What do I do? On my first days off or when I get home from work I shut the door to my room and chill out with netflix or the ship, if I am not tired I go for a walk around my city and get a coffee somewhere quiet. Usually I have at least one of my days off packed with people but when I don't get my quiet day in I get this horribly full busy feeling in my head and find I get irritable far more easily.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Of course being introverted isn't a choice - but acting as if extroverts are like this simply to be annoying is a choice!
You mean you're being a self-righteous fuckwit asshole* for some OTHER reason than to simply be annoying? Pray tell, what could that reason be?
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*or arsehole east of the pond
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
To want to go into Church and have no contact with others, just God?
Please understand that your ideas of sociability and company aren't shared by everyone. I certainly want to worship as part of a community, which is exactly what I do singing and praying alongside others. That doesn't mean I want to chat to them every week.
For reference, I can spend hours sitting reading in the company of one or more of my family, and the only sound that any of us will make is offering the others a cup of tea at some point. And that's perfectly sociable, and there's no reason to fill the companionable silence with blether.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The meme I put up about 'we like to think before we speak' is fine when in a meeting, serious discussion etc where careful thought is needed. But when chatting - why?? Why not just let the conversation flow?
Seems like a need to be right over sociability to me.
Words are important. Opinions are important. If I value you, then I want to offer you my best - which means a carefully thought-out and correct statement. If I spoke without trying to be as accurate as I can, I would be lying to you, and I'm not going to do that.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
How did things get changed around so we introverts are allegedly attacking the extroverts? The OP was just the opposite.
I can't recall the last time I scolded an extrovert for following his/her nature. Generally the scoldings flow the opposite way.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Part of the problem, Boogie, is that many extroverts aren't making the choice to be selfish and annoying - they are unaware that they may be selfish and annoying. I call them energy vampires, sucking the energy and joy out of me, without even noticing.
I am also a teacher, and also enjoy the staff room; not to chat, but simply to sit and *be* with people, to listen to their plans, stories and issues. We have 2 very extroverted staff who sound rather like you: lovely, friendly people who love to talk and laugh. You always know when they're there. You can hear their voice from the hallway, talking and laughing incessantly, filling every second of silence and every centimetre of space with their personalities. It can be fun to listen to, but a little bit goes a *long way*, and I am very glad when they go on duty! And when they're both there together, no one else gets to say a word. They are both totally unaware of how exhausting they can be to be around, or even how much they dominate the 'chat'. That doesn't mean I don't like them, but I pick and choose the times I am around them.
[ 17. March 2016, 01:05: Message edited by: Athrawes ]
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Here's the problem: say there are people who value quiet, and peace, and other people who value noise and communication. That's fine, but put them in the same space, and the noisy people drown out the quiet ones. A quiet neighbour won't stop a noisy person being noisy, but a noisy neighbour stops a quiet person from having quiet.
I'm not even entirely sure that is the problem - at least for me. I don't need silence to be content, I don't need to be on my own either. I need a break from interacting with other people. I'm able to fade out the background noise of other people. But, it needs to stay background noise.
What doesn't work is finding a quiet corner to read (or, for others it might be knitting), and have people come up and insist that I need to join in the fun by sharing with everyone what my favourite colour is, or what I think about some reality TV show I've no interest in. I'm not going to insist that others join in the fun of reading a good book, I'm not going to insist that they go and have their favourite colour conversation elsewhere.
All I want, all any of us wants, is a bit of respect and to be treated with some dignity. So, if you want your service to include a time to share prayer requests and concerns, fine go ahead but make it optional ("please feel free to sit quietly and pray if you prefer, please don't force others to talk to you").
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, if you want your service to include a time to share prayer requests and concerns, fine go ahead but make it optional ("please feel free to sit quietly and pray if you prefer, please don't force others to talk to you").
This would be unutterably lovely. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Truly, if they all want to get up and conga line around the sanctuary, that's fine too. Just don't make ME do it.
Since I think in analogies (apologies to the non-analogists), I'm going to riff off Athrawes' fine post. Extroverts who don't self-monitor (which is some, not all of them) are like the people who sit down in a pew and spread themselves and their belongings. Which is fine until you have to sit there as it's the last spot in church, and they stare blankly at you and only move when you specifically ask them to--and then, only enough for you to sit on one buttock. Not out of meanness, but because they haven't observed that you are a tad chubby, and they haven't connected that fact with the idea that their purse or jacket might be moved to another location. (Yes, this happened to me. Yes, I did everything short of saying "excuse me, but I happen to be fat." Yes, I spent the service on one buttock to avoid the shame of having to spell it out that way.)
Basically, if your (general your) personality naturally expands to fill the available mental and aural space, it's great if you can develop self-monitoring and observational skills sufficient to make room for the introverts who come in and don't want to say, "Shut up, wouldja?" Because they won't. But they'll be thinking it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm not even entirely sure that is the problem - at least for me. I don't need silence to be content, I don't need to be on my own either. I need a break from interacting with other people. I'm able to fade out the background noise of other people. But, it needs to stay background noise.
I suppose when I was thinking "noise" and "quiet" I was thinking more metaphorically than not, but that probably wasn't terribly helpful given that they might sometimes be metaphors for themselves.
Being together can just mean being, together.
[ 17. March 2016, 01:38: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
For reference, I can spend hours sitting reading in the company of one or more of my family, and the only sound that any of us will make is offering the others a cup of tea at some point. And that's perfectly sociable, and there's no reason to fill the companionable silence with blether.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Like so, so many other folks around here, I'm kind of an introvert. Big Surprise. I also work a customer service/retail job, hang around in coffee shops, talk to strangers about bicycling and transportation equity (usually working in a good feminist rant along the way), enjoy parties and the company of friends, and go to church.
Then I get home and wonder how the fuck I managed to do all that shit without freaking out.
Like, I hate small talk. Fucking hate that meaningless, pointless, waste-of-time bullshit. Don't ask me how my day is when I first get to work. I just got to work. My day just started, and the part that's passed has been 1. waking up, just like every other day; 2. making and drinking coffee, just like every other day; 3. reading the paper, just like every other day; 4. riding to work, just like every other day. So WHY THE HELL are you ASKING ME how it's going? IT'S THE FUCKING SAME AS IT WAS YESTERDAY AND THE DAY BEFORE, YOU MORONIC TWATWAFFLE! GROW A BRAIN AND FIGURE OUT THAT YOU'RE ASKING THE DUMBEST, MOST MEANINGLESS QUESTION EVER!
...I'm really not a morning person.
So, much as I love conversation, I hate pointless, "polite" questions. Much as I can talk all day about bikes while at work, I kinda turn quiet whenever somebody asks me for bike advice when I'm off the clock...unless it's an old Schwinn or something I don't have to sell, in which case, I can talk about a hobby, sure. I can do a job, punch a clock, and enjoy it, true, but don't ask me to work after hours. I know not to go off on my rants about the history of American urban planning or intersectional feminism in transit or the late 1980's in bike technology or aesthetic theory in Japanese ceramics or anything I studied in grad school, even if I occasionally do it anyway despite myself (and regret it once I'm home).
I like being around people. I like meaningful conversations. Can we skip the insincere bullshit, though? The acting like we Care, that God is calling us into Relationship with one another, trying to heal the rifts that keep us from Meaningfully Relating? Can we go without sharing our deepest fears we confess only before God? Our hopes and prayers for all people? Those are personal, pastor, and not all of us are ANYWHERE NEAR COMFORTABLE sharing that kind of deep and dark shit with people we see only in church—fuck, I wouldn't usually share any of that with my girlfriends, best friends, or family members, and wouldn't hardly expect to hear it from them!
Why do I go to church, then? Why hang around coffeeshops? Why work in retail? Why be a transit activist? Why be around people, when I'm supposed to hate them?
I don't hate people. I don't hate conversation. I just hate bullshit.
You want to find a great bike? Cool! Let's talk about what you love, what you want, what makes you happy. I don't care about the weather, I don't want to talk about how I am today, and no, I'm not exactly comfortable telling you my name.
On the street talking about transit? Hey, if you light into me talking about all the problems "you people" cause, I can calmly address your points. I can cite statistics and fact, and make a case. I can even tell you that we're doing X, Y, and Z to make things better. Please, however, do not call me your friend. I'm not. We just met.
Coffee shop? I'll talk to baristas. Ask about origin, sourcing, roasting, preparation, how that really cool Slayer dual-phase machine works. Cupping? I'm there. Let's talk procedure, water temperature, flavor notes. Latte art competition? Loud, raucous, like caffeinated Thunderdome? I'm quiet. Sure, there are lots of interesting people—but I'm focused on the process, the art, the competition, the craft. I'm in a groove, the same one I'm in when watching glassblowers, potters, artisans. Where do I work, what do I do? Who cares! Look, I overhaul bottom brackets, my hands still smell like grease, you don't really want to know about any of that. It ain't glamorous. Trust me, it ain't. I'm trying to get away from it right now. You're being polite asking, thank you, but I wish you'd let me get back to analyzing that rosette.
Church? Let's honor God together. Let's act in ways we can only do communally. It's different than private prayer. It's a form of action, of worship, of devotion that can't be offered alone. It's like raising a barn—it takes a community to do it. It may be a little uncomfortable, and I'll never learn to like sermons, but it's for the sake of God. Heck, I might even figure out that some people need the Peace, public declaration of prayer intentions, and a sermon the way I have to have the Kyrie, the readings, and the Eucharist. I crave order in my worship, a common devotion to God, free from small talk and overly earnest and (to my mind) insincere bullshittery about entering into Relationship.
So I tend to meditate on stained glass during sermons, grit my teeth and remind myself it's for other people who need it during the Peace, and not roll my eyes during oversharing during prayers. Some people need that the way I need a nice and orderly coming together to focus on God. It doesn't mean I'm not an introvert, this needing to be around people. It doesn't mean I'm unsocial, being an introvert. It may mean that I express my need for society differently than some other people do, and have trouble reading small talk and chatter as anything other than insincere, vacuous, and annoying.
As I keep thinking, maybe church is exactly what I need as an introvert—a sort of community and sociability focused entirely on God, on something greater than which cannot be thought. Maybe that's why I'm so inextricably drawn to the communion rail, to the Body and Blood; it's a bullshit-free community, a chance to come together and be united by Christ, skipping all the remarks about the weather and my weekend and focusing completely on the love of God and the mystery of faith.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
For reference, I can spend hours sitting reading in the company of one or more of my family, and the only sound that any of us will make is offering the others a cup of tea at some point. And that's perfectly sociable, and there's no reason to fill the companionable silence with blether.
I visit my mother for a weekend every month, and we invariably spend a measureable portion of the weekend reading, with occasional interruptions for tea and to read a particularly good line or two aloud. It's wonderful.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm intrigued by how many people seem to manage the art of never being alone and have company 24 hours a day, without actually realizing it.
This is likely to be true of anyone in a relationship and full-time employment, especially if they have children, or lift-share on their way to a job in an open plan office. It's also true of people in shared houses or flats, and people who constantly keep in touch on their mobiles.
So non-hellish. I have a full time job as a nurse, this means when I am at work I usually have a lot of face to face contact with patients who require a lot of emotional support and empathy. I love my job.
I can't afford a house yet so I live in a shared house.
I am a millenial so yes I have my phone a lot.
What do I do? On my first days off or when I get home from work I shut the door to my room and chill out with netflix or the ship, if I am not tired I go for a walk around my city and get a coffee somewhere quiet. Usually I have at least one of my days off packed with people but when I don't get my quiet day in I get this horribly full busy feeling in my head and find I get irritable far more easily.
You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I visit my mother for a weekend every month, and we invariably spend a measureable portion of the weekend reading, with occasional interruptions for tea and to read a particularly good line or two aloud. It's wonderful.
Some of the times I treasure most with my late mother are the days we used to chat on the phone for hours. We would often both end up crying laughing about something which tickled us. Wonderful.
Fine sitting companionably with people you know - nothing wrong with that. But strangers/semi-starngers/aquaintances - the best way to get to know them, especially in groups, is to talk with and listen to them. This is very obvious imo.
My husband said the other day 'David is a great bloke you know, he really knows his stuff about gardens' I told him that five years ago! But that's how long it took to get to know him. I always tell friends who think he (my husband) doesn't like them 'don't worry, he'll chat to you fine when he's known you ten years' ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Of course a few beers helps the conversation along too - can't get a word in edgeways then.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Here's the problem: say there are people who value quiet, and peace, and other people who value noise and communication. That's fine, but put them in the same space, and the noisy people drown out the quiet ones. A quiet neighbour won't stop a noisy person being noisy, but a noisy neighbour stops a quiet person from having quiet.
I'm not even entirely sure that is the problem - at least for me. I don't need silence to be content, I don't need to be on my own either. I need a break from interacting with other people. I'm able to fade out the background noise of other people. But, it needs to stay background noise.
What doesn't work is finding a quiet corner to read (or, for others it might be knitting), and have people come up and insist that I need to join in the fun by sharing with everyone what my favourite colour is, or what I think about some reality TV show I've no interest in. I'm not going to insist that others join in the fun of reading a good book, I'm not going to insist that they go and have their favourite colour conversation elsewhere.
All I want, all any of us wants, is a bit of respect and to be treated with some dignity. So, if you want your service to include a time to share prayer requests and concerns, fine go ahead but make it optional ("please feel free to sit quietly and pray if you prefer, please don't force others to talk to you").
It seems to me all you are wanting there is basic good manners, I am not sure that is determined by introversion / extraversion dimension.
[ 17. March 2016, 07:28: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'm sure it isn't. Which makes the introvert/extravert classification irrelevant. I'm sure someone has already questioned the relevance of going after introverts ...
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Like, I hate small talk. Fucking hate that meaningless, pointless, waste-of-time bullshit.
This sums up your long, rambling post.
You simply don't get it!
The small talk is a lead into conversation - it's the ice breaker, the sociable way of gently finding out if the person wants to chat.
So, me at the canal lock - "Have you come far?"
Other person "No, just from Foxton" silence.
Me - silence, do lock, go back on boat.
(That was an introvert, totally uninterested except for getting the lock done)
Next lock me "Have you come far?"
Other person "Yes, we came from Foxton today and .... chat about when they started, ehare they have been, when they are going home ... "
Me "What do you think about the refurbished pub at Foxton"
Other person "Not keen ... nice chat about beers etc"
(My type of chat ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
PS Ariston - no need to shout
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm intrigued by how many people seem to manage the art of never being alone and have company 24 hours a day, without actually realizing it.
This is likely to be true of anyone in a relationship and full-time employment, especially if they have children, or lift-share on their way to a job in an open plan office. It's also true of people in shared houses or flats, and people who constantly keep in touch on their mobiles.
So non-hellish. I have a full time job as a nurse, this means when I am at work I usually have a lot of face to face contact with patients who require a lot of emotional support and empathy. I love my job.
I can't afford a house yet so I live in a shared house.
I am a millenial so yes I have my phone a lot.
What do I do? On my first days off or when I get home from work I shut the door to my room and chill out with netflix or the ship, if I am not tired I go for a walk around my city and get a coffee somewhere quiet. Usually I have at least one of my days off packed with people but when I don't get my quiet day in I get this horribly full busy feeling in my head and find I get irritable far more easily.
You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?
I get tired out with too much company and socialising and I very much enjoy my own company to relax and recharge.
Being introverted doesn't mean I hate people or don't want to interact with them, on the contrary I enjoy it, I just enjoy it for specific periods of time then I need to get away and be quiet.
Plus INFJ - we're just basically introverts who pretend to be extroverts.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?
Yes, exactly. The "quiet day" is still filled with people. If you wander round a city, go to a coffee shop, hang out on the Ship or spend time on your phone you're still "being with people". You may not be actually directly speaking to them but their presence makes the experience what it is. The snatches of conversation, laughter, shouts, calls you hear in crowded places, the chat in a text-based medium, it's still company.
I'd regard someone as an introvert if they lived alone, worked from home full time on something like computer programming, and liked to spend their spare time getting away from people and going off into the wilds alone.
Contact with people is what keeps most of us relatively sane and knocks the corners off; too much isolation can send you nutty; but different people need different levels.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Fine sitting companionably with people you know - nothing wrong with that. But strangers/semi-starngers/aquaintances - the best way to get to know them, especially in groups, is to talk with and listen to them. This is very obvious imo.
You don't get it, do you. Talking isn't the only way you find out things about people. Sit and watch them for a bit. You might be surprised what you pick up from that. Family dynamics, relationship tensions, states of health, the way they live - the things people wear, the way they hold themselves, their body language, all of this can say so much. Spoken words can be deceptive but actually watch people and see what you can pick up. It can be fascinating, revealing, illuminating. We broadcast quite a lot about ourselves through the medium of our choices, conscious and unconscious. What people say and what they actually believe or do can be quite different.
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Macrina
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# 8807
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Posted
My apologies for not fitting your definition of introversion. I must try harder.
Still am one though, not apologising for that.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
The trouble with adopting a label is it comes with a set of definitions, sometimes those can turn into restrictions, or other people will expect certain criteria to be met. I wouldn't bother with the labels myself.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?
Isn't the issue (and I have the impression that you unlike me know what you are talking about) that most people are extrovert or introvert depending on circumstances, and people get labelled (or label themselves) introverts if the proportion of circumstances in which they behave introvertedly is greater than average?
Consequently Boogie is talking as though social interaction was totally foreign to 'introverts' and they'd love it if they gave it a try - when in reality they probably do give it a try, they just find it more effort and/or less rewarding than she does.
(To be fair, people are doing the same to her, in suggesting that she has no concept or appreciation of 'quiet time', when the likelihood is that she finds quiet time less rewarding, etc.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Fine sitting companionably with people you know - nothing wrong with that. But strangers/semi-starngers/aquaintances - the best way to get to know them, especially in groups, is to talk with and listen to them. This is very obvious imo.
You don't get it, do you. Talking isn't the only way you find out things about people. Sit and watch them for a bit. You might be surprised what you pick up from that. Family dynamics, relationship tensions, states of health, the way they live - the things people wear, the way they hold themselves, their body language, all of this can say so much. Spoken words can be deceptive but actually watch people and see what you can pick up. It can be fascinating, revealing, illuminating. We broadcast quite a lot about ourselves through the medium of our choices, conscious and unconscious. What people say and what they actually believe or do can be quite different.
I think the other point here is that "finding out about people" is only a small and actually quite superficial part of socialising. And even then, I find I learn a lot more about a person from their bookshelves than from talking to them.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Another problem for some extroverts is wanting to do something, in a kind of busy busy way.
Now I'm confused. I manage social interaction, but find it exhausting and would prefer to sit quietly with someone than talk about nothing of importance. Sharing feelings and personal stuff is almost impossible. Conversely I enjoy discussions of politics, the faith etc, and find such conversations refreshing. Which I always took to be fairly classic introversion.
But, I can't stop and do nothing. I need to be doing something. It might be something to watch on TV, a book to read, a computer game to play. The idea of a holiday which consists of sitting on a beach doing nothing all day is close to my idea of Hell - give me museums, scenery to admire, even a day shopping for shoes! Does that make me extrovert then?
No, it doesn't, as I was talking complete bollocks. I got muddled up, between talking about counselling and extroversion in general.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You see, I read this and think - what is it about your experience that makes you think you are an introvert ?
Yes, exactly. The "quiet day" is still filled with people. If you wander round a city, go to a coffee shop, hang out on the Ship or spend time on your phone you're still "being with people". You may not be actually directly speaking to them but their presence makes the experience what it is. The snatches of conversation, laughter, shouts, calls you hear in crowded places, the chat in a text-based medium, it's still company.
I'd regard someone as an introvert if they lived alone, worked from home full time on something like computer programming, and liked to spend their spare time getting away from people and going off into the wilds alone.
Contact with people is what keeps most of us relatively sane and knocks the corners off; too much isolation can send you nutty; but different people need different levels.
I think your definition of "introvert" is rather narrow. There aren't many people who'd meet your definition. No-one with a family, for starters.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Talking isn't the only way you find out things about people. Sit and watch them for a bit. You might be surprised what you pick up from that. Family dynamics, relationship tensions, states of health, the way they live - the things people wear, the way they hold themselves, their body language, all of this can say so much. Spoken words can be deceptive but actually watch people and see what you can pick up. It can be fascinating, revealing, illuminating. We broadcast quite a lot about ourselves through the medium of our choices, conscious and unconscious. What people say and what they actually believe or do can be quite different.
I've been on a number of training courses where they tell us that some random but large percentage of communication is non-verbal. The statistic is almost certainly generated by the logical process called 'abstrahando ab ano' but I suspect the underlying message isn't.
(By pulling out of the fundament.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Being an introvert doesn't mean living alone. I am married to one, and she is married to one. And we talk, sing, dance, laugh, get pissed, see friends, all without a safety net!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
What doesn't work is finding a quiet corner to read (or, for others it might be knitting), and have people come up and insist that I need to join in the fun
One of my favourite quotes (from one of the Hilary Tamar series but I forget which) concerns a young woman who finds herself at an orgy. Sex, drugs and rock and roll are on offer and she's told to do exactly what would make her feel good. She takes out a book and sits in a corner reading it. This causes consternation...
[ 17. March 2016, 09:10: Message edited by: Helen-Eva ]
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
A very enjoyable thread for me; it's brilliant reading different people's views on being alone, being with people, just being, etc.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Ariston: Like, I hate small talk. Fucking hate that meaningless, pointless, waste-of-time bullshit. Don't ask me how my day is when I first get to work. I just got to work.
I think there are different understandings about what small talk is, and what it is supposed to achieve. To many people, it isn't about an exchange of factual information.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
You simply don't get it!
The small talk is a lead into conversation - it's the ice breaker, the sociable way of gently finding out if the person wants to chat.
That's fine as long as it IS being used as an ice-breaker. I'm a sociable introvert who enjoys a good conversation.
Some people, however, don't treat the small talk just as an ice-breaker, they go on and on and on with meaningless, superficial waffle. And that is draining, a waste of my precious energy (and theirs, IMO). If you're going to engage me in conversation, make it interesting, for pete's sake. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
I am surprised at some of the stereotypes about introverts. There is not one cookie-cutter size which fits everyone, as per Karl's point above. The idea that introverts don't want to have fun and never, ever go to parties is just plain wrong. I enjoy a party, as long as I can get some time-out to recharge the batteries.
Introverted is not the same thing as being shy. Shy people are usually introverts: that doesn't mean that all introverts are shy.
It's certainly not the same thing as being selfish.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Like, I hate small talk. Fucking hate that meaningless, pointless, waste-of-time bullshit.
This sums up your long, rambling post.
You simply don't get it!
The small talk is a lead into conversation - it's the ice breaker, the sociable way of gently finding out if the person wants to chat.
So, me at the canal lock - "Have you come far?"
Other person "No, just from Foxton" silence.
Me - silence, do lock, go back on boat.
(That was an introvert, totally uninterested except for getting the lock done)
Next lock me "Have you come far?"
Other person "Yes, we came from Foxton today and .... chat about when they started, ehare they have been, when they are going home ... "
Me "What do you think about the refurbished pub at Foxton"
Other person "Not keen ... nice chat about beers etc"
(My type of chat )
PS Ariston - no need to shout
Oh. I'm so, so, very sorry for making you sit still, read examples from lived experience, and think. I know it's exceedingly hard to discuss something not bleedingly obvious if you're only used to talking about the weather, the banal details of your day, kids, etc.
My most sincere apologies.
In the interest of fairness, it seems only appropriate to warn you that this conversation is likely to continue along these lines. I regret to inform you that I'm just fine not discussing the weather, or the details of a weekday, or the other meaningless things that your mayfly mind will probably think part of polite discussion. I'm sure facebook would be quite willing to take them, though. Best put in an environment people can just scroll past on their way to something meaningful and interesting.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I have no idea where you get 'clingy' from. I simply enjoy hearing people's stories, I enjoy biographies. Plenty of people like to tell their stories too. I would love those who have never done it to enjoy having an animated, spontaneous conversation with a group of people. Rather like my son, who learned to do this and now loves it.
Of course being introverted isn't a choice - but acting as if extroverts are like this simply to be annoying is a choice!
I'm sorry, the irony of this is exploding my brain. I didn't start a thread accusing you of being annoying or selfish. I used the word "clingy" deliberately to phrase something neutral in a negative way, in the exact way that you've been doing when talking about me. This was a very basic "if I talked about you the way you're talking about me, you wouldn't like it" comparison. And you complained that you don't like it whilst somehow completely failing to grasp the point.
Extroverts are not doing this in order to be annoying, although God knows I find it irritating to be asked if I have plans for the weekend by someone I'll never see again. It's just how you are. For fuck's sake extend the same courtesy to other people.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
One thing that used to interest me was the idea that most actors are introverts. This is a kind of cliche that is passed around, and I haven't been able to find any actual statistics on it.
People cite famous actors who are supposed to be introverts, e.g. people often cite Harrison Ford, but then it's really difficult to get more detail on this. He was a quiet kid at school, blah blah blah.
But at any rate, if there are quite a few introverted actors, it shows how complicated intro/extroversion is.
As others have said, some introverts socialize easily, are not shy, like parties, like performing, and so on.
I have also heard people say that they went through a life change, e.g. they were extroverted in their early life, and became introverted.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Cenobite
Shipmate
# 14853
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Posted
I rarely venture into Hell, but saw this thread and thought I might find it interesting, which I certainly did!
One thing which I believe is a common characteristic of introverts (it is for me) is that I will generally only contribute to a conversation if I believe I have something to contribute. So if someone else has said what I would have said, then I don't repeat it. It can make me look like I'm not engaging in a group discussion, when the reality is that I am likely very interested and engaged, but I have spent so much time thinking through what I would like to say, that someone else says it before I do! And then there's no point (in my mind) in repeating it.
With this discussion, there is something I would like to contribute, which is my appreciation of the absolute brilliance of Adeodatus' quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
One of the great things about introverts is we're often very good at putting on a front. So we may be smiling because we like you, or we may be smiling and imagining what it would be like to wear your skin.
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Cenobite: means "Common Life"; cenobites lived in community, serving one another and the rest of humanity.
Posts: 109 | From: On a journey of discovery. | Registered: Jun 2009
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Extroverts who don't self-monitor (which is some, not all of them) are like the people who sit down in a pew and spread themselves and their belongings. Which is fine until you have to sit there as it's the last spot in church, and they stare blankly at you and only move when you specifically ask them to--and then, only enough for you to sit on one buttock.
I've noticed a similar dynamic in church housegroups, where we have 'sharing time', where people chat about how their weeks have been, and ask for prayer for things they might be going through. In a group I'm in, most people talk for a couple of minutes, but one particular person, who is extremely extroverted, always takes up at least ten minutes - they just are unable to keep it short. They're probably oblivious that they've sometimes prohibited other people from sharing important things because they've taken so long, and they probably don't even realise that they talk for way longer than everyone else. But I wish they could learn to be as concise as everyone else, and not dominate things so much.
That said, this same person is invaluable during bible study time in terms of drawing out discussion, asking questions, and keeping the conversation going. Which shows we all have our strengths and weaknesses.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think I get the acting thing. You put on a persona that isn't yours. You are, technically, not metaphorically, a hypocrite, behind a mask. This is freeing. And the interaction is provided for you.
Except with improv, which is definitely not something I get at all. Like small talk.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Cenobite: I rarely venture into Hell
(Another introvert lured into Hell by this thread. A couple more, and we can close the trap.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I think I get the acting thing. You put on a persona that isn't yours. You are, technically, not metaphorically, a hypocrite, behind a mask. This is freeing. And the interaction is provided for you.
Except with improv, which is definitely not something I get at all. Like small talk.
Yes, I think the persona thing is important. I did some acting a long time ago, and I remember how relaxed it felt. And we did improv, and that felt relaxed. I suppose it didn't matter, although I guess for a professional it matters a lot.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Cenobite
Shipmate
# 14853
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Cenobite: I rarely venture into Hell
(Another introvert lured into Hell by this thread. A couple more, and we can close the trap.)
Uh-oh - is it too late to escape?! ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Cenobite: means "Common Life"; cenobites lived in community, serving one another and the rest of humanity.
Posts: 109 | From: On a journey of discovery. | Registered: Jun 2009
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that used to interest me was the idea that most actors are introverts. This is a kind of cliche that is passed around, and I haven't been able to find any actual statistics on it.
People cite famous actors who are supposed to be introverts, e.g. people often cite Harrison Ford, but then it's really difficult to get more detail on this. He was a quiet kid at school, blah blah blah.
But at any rate, if there are quite a few introverted actors, it shows how complicated intro/extroversion is.
Oh, this makes complete sense to me. Acting's adopting a persona, after all—and what better way to protect your core self in public than to completely adopt and inhabit a new self, a new facade? It's self-protection taken to an art form, the smiling face required to navigate society used on stage or screen. If you're used to dissociating and putting on a face for society, if you've gotten good at acting in one role, why not try on one or two more?
There's a part of me that wants to try improv comedy, but knows that, in order to do it, I'd have to completely dissociate. I couldn't be present at all—I'd become self-concious, freak out, lose my head on stage. I'd have to become someone completely different, adopt tropes and personae nobody would ever associate with me, down to gender, name, appearance...wait, isn't there a grand old tradition of comics cross-dressing, adopting unusual accents and names, and acting in completely bizarre ways they never would day-to-day?
That whole "living a lie" thing, of having to adopt a false front in order to protect your core self, crack jokes to distract anyone from getting too close to your base persona—seems pretty handy for an actor or comic, doesn't it?
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Or we may be smiling because we want to get in your pants.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I have done a lot of improv theatre, and in my experience it involves your real self interacting with the real selves of other actors very much.
Yes you're playing roles, but an interaction on a rather personal level needs to take place to allow your creativity to interact with the other person's creativity.
[ 17. March 2016, 14:15: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
My name is Firenze and I talk to people at bus stops.
Since my first action is usually to check the app on my phone which says when the next bus is due, my next is to communicate the news to anyone else at the stop. If, like me, they are sociable and bored by standing in a street in the cold, they will respond and off we go. This morning it was about early flowers and the beauty of winter sunlight.
I have also, in the past months, had occasion to offer conversational openings to people who either have a close friend or relative who is seriously ill or who are themselves ill, perhaps terminally so. If they want to talk, I will talk.
I do this because I genuinely need to communicate to and with other people. I can - and do - do fair amounts of silence and solitariness, and a deal of casual, trivial, getting-by-in-the-world social exchange. It is not an either/or, more a going with what is.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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