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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Introverts are bloody selfish!
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
But if we are discussing things I'm thinking about, hopes and plans I have, things I feel strongly about, I am going to give thoughtful, measured responses and I mean them. Most of the extroverts in my life process things through their mouths and it drives me nuts.
After 40 years I don't even try to talk things through with my husband. I process things verbally by chatting to the dogs.
If I ask him anything I know the answer will be slow coming with no 'real' discussion. He's like you in a group, he's not silent and is socially perfectly competent. It's at home when he's relaxing that silence falls.
Hopes and plans and things you feel strongly about don't have to be set in stone either, you know - they can change and grow as you talk them through. He seems to have the idea that once he's said it he's committed to it. I once said "shall we have a fountain in the garden?" it was an idea a thought a possibility - I didn't especially want a fountain in the garden, I just very much wanted a nicer garden and to chat about how we go about it. He still mentions it as if I'm hankering after one! No - it was a passing thought! I just hope one doesn't turn up with one day as a surprise ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
"OMG you actually thought I meant what I was saying?"
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
"OMG you actually thought I meant what I was saying?"
You've never discussed a variety of possible ideas for a project?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
He seems to have the idea that once he's said it he's committed to it.
That's not quite it (at least in my case - I can't speak for Mr. Boogie). It's not that I am completely committed to anything I say: the point of a discussion is to come to an agreement, and I am open to being persuaded that it's a bad idea. But if the conversation goes: "Shall we have a fountain in the garden?" "Yes, OK - what kind were you thinking of?" "Actually I don't really want a fountain." then something really bizarre has happened.
quote:
I just very much wanted a nicer garden and to chat about how we go about it.
Were I to be having such a discussion, I would open with something like "I'd like to do up the garden - can we talk about it?" or "I'd like the garden to look nicer: how much do you care about it?" or something.
(The latter is an important question - IMO, there's a big difference between a conversation when we're both trying to agree on something we want to do together, and a conversation when I'm helping you refine your thoughts about what you want, but I don't actually care about the outcome.)
If I then wanted to suggest a fountain more as a means of sparking discussion than a definitive request for a urinating cherub, I would hang the suggestion with several caveats along the lines of "I'm not sure I'm really suggesting this."
I suspect you'd find this irritating ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If I then wanted to suggest a fountain more as a means of sparking discussion than a definitive request for a urinating cherub, I would hang the suggestion with several caveats along the lines of "I'm not sure I'm really suggesting this."
I suspect you'd find this irritating
No, not irritating, contrived.
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.
Oh good grief. In other words, you just open your mouth and out it comes without any thought or consideration for your hearers?
I think almost anyone, faced with "Shall we have a fountain in the garden?" would interpret that as "I've been thinking the garden could be enhanced by a fountain [i.e. I'm suggesting a specific design feature here], do you think this is a good idea?"
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.
Sounds bloody selfish to me.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.
Sounds bloody selfish to me.
Not at all - my words are not unkind or selfish!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.
Oh good grief. In other words, you just open your mouth and out it comes without any thought or consideration for your hearers?
The consideration for others comes naturally - but, yes - my words are my thoughts. (Otherwise I think in pictures)
Is that so terrible? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Not at all - my words are not unkind or selfish!
Then you must be putting some kind of thought or filter on them.
I don't know, I don't get this. Why waste someone's time by blurting out the first thing that comes into your head when you don't mean it? I mean, you might as well say "Shall we have chicken curry for dinner tonight" and then respond with "I didn't really mean that and don't particularly want it."
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Because it's a suggestion, an idea, a thought. What I'd like is a conversation about it - to chew over ideas, thoughts.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Not at all - my words are not unkind or selfish!
Then you must be putting some kind of thought or filter on them.
Just because a person thinks in pictures and needs to verbalise to discuss their thoughts doesn't mean they have no filters.
But, for me, thinking in words is not natural - I can do it, but it's an effort. So - like I said - when relaxing at home it's nice to switch that need off a for a while.
This is not due to my extrovert nature but it is linked to it in some ways.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Because it's a suggestion, an idea, a thought. What I'd like is a conversation about it - to chew over ideas, thoughts.
But why not just get straight to the point and ask "Do you have any ideas how we could make the garden nicer" or "What would you like for dinner" instead of coming out with a random jumping-off point that's actually in practice irrelevant?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Sounds bloody selfish to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Not at all - my words are not unkind or selfish!
Well those were your words about introverts so presumably they are not unkind or selfish when I use them either.
But the point is if you want to blurt out anything without a filter you place a burden on the listener that would be more effectively done in your head rather than theirs.
Are you going to think about your reply now? If not, why should I bother to respond?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Because it's a suggestion, an idea, a thought. What I'd like is a conversation about it - to chew over ideas, thoughts.
But why not just get straight to the point and ask "Do you have any ideas how we could make the garden nicer" or "What would you like for dinner" instead of coming out with a random jumping-off point that's actually in practice irrelevant?
My middle name is 'random'
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
But the point is if you want to blurt out anything without a filter you place a burden on the listener that would be more effectively done in your head rather than theirs.
You haven't been listening to what I said.
I think in pictures - I don't 'blurt out'. My words are my thoughts.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Are you going to think about your reply now? If not, why should I bother to respond?
Patronising.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Hell. Target. Back.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Hell. Target. Back.
I know
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If I am close to someone I start conversations and I don't feel the need to consider what words to use - that's hard work and saved for work situations.
Sounds bloody selfish to me.
Not at all - my words are not unkind or selfish!
How do you know they're not unkind or selfish, until you've heard yourself say them?! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
May I try something? I've been thinking about this thread a bit, from the angle of risk-taking. Bear with me for a moment.
Suppose I meet someone at some work-related event, and I meet him again a couple of months later. The first time we chatted a bit, and I remember that he talked rather enthusiastically about his children. Or rather, I'm 90% certain that I remember him talking about his children. My memory about this kind of things isn't always perfect.
So, after a couple of months I meet him again. Asking him "how are your children?" might be nice. I like to show interest in people, and this could help to reinforce some kind of inter-human connection. But I'm only 90% sure that he talked about his children last time.
If I'm allowed to speculate a bit, what I understand from this thread is that introvert people would have a risk-averse behaviour here. "What if I misremembered and he doesn't have children? Or what if he has children but something bad happened with them in the intervening months? His feelings might be hurt. Better not bring this up."
Whereas as an extrovert, I would think "I may have misremembered him talking about his children, but it's worth the risk" (this is not a very conscious process).
This doesn't mean that I'm not aware of his feelings. Yes, I realise very well that if I'm wrong, his feelings may be hurt. I can empathise with that. But I'm willing to take this 90% chance here.
On a certain level you might say that this is selfish of me, and you may be right. After all, by taking this risk I'm not only putting potential embarrassment for myself at stake, but also the other person's feelings.
But I feel that this risk is worthwhile, because a positive result could be beneficial to both of us. If I'd let myself caught up in this long train of thought ("what if I misremembered etc."), it might very well lead to an unnatural, stunted conversation. A conversation that flows more naturally has advantages for both of us. So I go for it.
And if I may speculate a bit more, maybe it's these trains of thought that cost introverts so much energy.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Do you want to know how his children are? That's the only question that really goes through my mind. I might go as far as "would he like me to ask about his children", but it's a pointless train of thought because I have no way of knowing the answer to that before I do it anyway.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider: Do you want to know how his children are?
Yes. I didn't express this very clearly, but when I ask such a question, my interest is genuine.
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider: I might go as far as "would he like me to ask about his children", but it's a pointless train of thought because I have no way of knowing the answer to that before I do it anyway.
Okay. My speculation was that introverts might go into this train of thought anyway, even if it may be pointless (this is not an accusation; our thought processes aren't always rational). But what you're telling me is that I'm wrong here.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Patronising.
Oh come the fuck on. Your patronisation of introverts here has been thicker than chicken shit on the coop floor.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I am an introvert always have been. I am not shy. I like people. but to much interaction makes me tired. Being around others drains my energy as is requires me to focus more attention outward. I need to recharge my battery by being alone. On the other hand my friend when she is tired seeks out a party to recharge. There is nothing better or worse about either one of us. It is just how we are. We both enjoy taking day long classes together in painting. At the end of the day I am ready for a good book and she wants to go out with friends. Likewise a quiet reflective service gives me energy while a busy active service drains my energy. Again not a good or bad thing.
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Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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AmyBo
Shipmate
# 15040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
But the point is if you want to blurt out anything without a filter you place a burden on the listener that would be more effectively done in your head rather than theirs.
You haven't been listening to what I said.
I think in pictures - I don't 'blurt out'. My words are my thoughts.
You can't filter your fucking thoughts? What the hell? I'd never have a job if I said everything I thought.
Speaking as an introvert - hence all the lurking - you're really off base here. I have a ton of respect for your usual posts, but why the fuck should introverts have to change for your royal ass?
Sure, I have learned how to be social, I have learned how to chat about the weather and ask how the kids are and all that bullshit. Sometimes I care. Sometimes I am waiting for you to stop talking so I can say bye. Sometimes I'm staring at your lips wondering what it would look like for a slug to come out. I am always exhausted after, and I usually feel dirty. If the planets are aligned wrong I cry.
Just fucking acknowledge it's hard, we need our goddamned space, and meet us in the middle like a decent person? I can smile and nod and quietly imagine a huge slug, and you can not be a bitch because I didn't talk enough to meet your arbitrary standards.
Posts: 122 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2009
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Brava, AmyBo!
And this --
quote:
Originally posted by AmyBo:
Sometimes I'm staring at your lips wondering what it would look like for a slug to come out.
-- I laughed hard enough to startle the cats.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
But why not just get straight to the point and ask "Do you have any ideas how we could make the garden nicer" or "What would you like for dinner" instead of coming out with a random jumping-off point that's actually in practice irrelevant?
My middle name is 'random'
That doesn't actually answer the question. It suggests a mindset a bit like a butterfly that flits around a topic, briefly settles on a corner of it then flits around it a bit more and may or may not abandon it completely in search of something else.
It's a difficult mindset to have as it would mean that a situation where focused, sustained attention is required, and questions need to be answered in a structured, logical way (or even a direct way) is going to be more of a challenge than it would be for most people. I wouldn't have thought it's a trait specifically linked with extroversion, though.
[ 25. March 2016, 04:33: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I think in pictures - I don't 'blurt out'. My words are my thoughts.
Why is thinking in pictures a counter to blurting out?
You are the one with a problem if you think that putting a fountain in the garden is intelligible as a picture for improving the garden without any specific reference to a fountain. You should do the work to turn that picture into some communication that is intelligible to other human beings rather than just blurting it out.
It seems amazing that you expect accommodation on this an a threat you started to say that introverts are "bloody selfish". And then you don't want to be patronized?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Because it's a suggestion, an idea, a thought. What I'd like is a conversation about it - to chew over ideas, thoughts.
Which all sounds incredibly reasonable in isolation. But in practice how can anyone interpret an opening "shall we have a fountain in the garden?" as anything other than a suggestion, an idea, a thought to be chewed over about having a fountain in the garden? On top of which, how can anyone take that any way other than you've had an idea or a thought "let's have a fountain in the garden" and you want to have a conversation to chew over that idea. I don't think it's anything to do with being an extrovert, it must reflect a really bizzarre way your brain works that must make it absolutely hell to have a conversation with you - whatever position on the introvert-extrovert spectrum they are on.
I can see how a conversation could start "I think the garden needs a bit of a tidy up", maybe "it's nice having a big lawn, but it's getting a bit much to maintain, what if we take some of it out and replace it with something lower maintenance?". Those are clear, simple, but open questions that allow everyone to work on the same page. I can even see how within that conversation someone might throw in random ideas that they then rapidly dismiss, "what about a water feature, a fountain?" ... few minutes later after some discussion ... "oh, I never really wanted a fountain I was just playing with the idea, what about a rockery?". It's not my style, when I say something it's because I've at least considered it a bit and kind of like the idea, but I can see how other people would think that way. But, to start the conversation with a random thought, "let's have a fountain", when that's not something you want is incomprehensible. You must have a husband who really loves you if he puts up with that sort of behaviour, and I'm not surprised if he keeps visiting the garden centre to see if there are any water features he'd be OK with to satisfy what reads like a clearly expressed thought that a fountain might be nice.
But, whether you're introvert or extrovert saying something you don't actually mean is rude, confusing, selfish and dishonest. It's bad enough to tell a colleague you don't like "sorry, I've another appointment" (when you don't) when they suggest joining them for a drink after work, but to effectively lie to your husband???
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
But if we are discussing things I'm thinking about, hopes and plans I have, things I feel strongly about, I am going to give thoughtful, measured responses and I mean them. Most of the extroverts in my life process things through their mouths and it drives me nuts.
After 40 years I don't even try to talk things through with my husband. I process things verbally by chatting to the dogs.
If I ask him anything I know the answer will be slow coming with no 'real' discussion. He's like you in a group, he's not silent and is socially perfectly competent. It's at home when he's relaxing that silence falls.
Hopes and plans and things you feel strongly about don't have to be set in stone either, you know - they can change and grow as you talk them through. He seems to have the idea that once he's said it he's committed to it. I once said "shall we have a fountain in the garden?" it was an idea a thought a possibility - I didn't especially want a fountain in the garden, I just very much wanted a nicer garden and to chat about how we go about it. He still mentions it as if I'm hankering after one! No - it was a passing thought! I just hope one doesn't turn up with one day as a surprise
It seems that you're using this approach to get your own way which seems a very passive aggressive form of behaviour to me.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Boogie--
There's nothing at all wrong with thinking in pictures. But if you go straight from that to translating those pictures *aloud*, without an intermediate step, ISTM there's a strong chance that you'll accidentally say something in a less than wise way, hurt someone, get yourself into trouble. And not even realize you've done it.
I wonder if maybe you could sometimes do a quick proofreading in your mind, before you speak? Or, in a situation like the garden discussion, maybe say "Let's brainstorm about what we might do differently with the garden".
I realize this would probably be very hard for you, but you might be saving yourself trouble in the long run.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
On the way you start conversations and ask questions, I had an almost identical situation with a former housemate.
Housemate: Do you think we should get a coffee table?
Me: No. I don’t like them. They take up space and get in the way.
Housemate goes away all pissed off. Turns out that she was asking me the question because she had already decided she wanted a coffee table and I was now in the way of her coffee table acquisition plans. Trouble is that I was naïve and straightforward enough to answer the question she actually asked, not the question she apparently meant. I really don’t like coffee tables. I told her so with no malice aforethought whatsoever.
I was pretty unrepentant. FWIW I don’t think introversion/ extroversion had much to do with it. I think it’s more about communication styles. She asked a misleading question and unfortunately for her, she got an honest answer. I claim no responsibility for hurting her feelings.
Also I too have an extremely visual mind/memory. However, being an extreme introvert, I take the time think my images through and try to come up with ways of putting them into intelligible words before talking about them to other people
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
la vie en rouge: She asked a misleading question
I'm not really sure about this. This is not how communication works.
[ 25. March 2016, 10:24: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Possibly. I still think it would have been better for her to be more direct and honest about what she wanted.
ISTM a much better way of starting would have been, “I would like to get a coffee table. How would you feel about that?” I might have still said I didn’t want one but she would have had her feelings hurt less.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
They are different sorts of questions.
"Do you want to get a coffee table/fountain?" invites a simple "yes" or "no" answer, with supporting statements expected. An inherently blunt, and probably discussion ending reply.
"I want a coffee table, what do feel about that?" is an invitation into a discussion of the merits and demerits of coffee tables. A "they take up too much room", "but, you can get small coffee tables, some even fold away when not in use and there's space in my room to store it when we don't need it" discussion that could end in a mutually agreeable purchase.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If I ask him anything I know the answer will be slow coming with no 'real' discussion. He's like you in a group, he's not silent and is socially perfectly competent. It's at home when he's relaxing that silence falls.
So he is doing exactly the same as you with thinking with words - "When relaxing at home it's nice to switch that need off for a while." He doesn't want to come out with quickfire responses that he hasn't had time to think about properly. That exhausts him.
We had an almost identical situation some years back. Mr Nen suggested a water feature in the garden. I didn't want one, said so, and gave my reasons. In my book, end of discussion. But he kept on about it - admiring water features in other people's gardens, heading for the hard landscaping areas of garden centres..."How many times do I have to say I don't want a b****y water feature? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) It was only gradually I realised he wanted to explore ideas for making changes to the garden. Now we have made changes to our garden and it looks nice. But I still worry that he secretly hankers for a water feature because he made such a thing about it at the time.
In situations like that I stop engaging with the conversation. I feel I have not been heard or understood. So I stop talking and get accused of putting barriers up or shutting down.
Introverts can have what you describe as 'real' discussions fine, thank you very much, as long as we understand the subject in question and the rules of engagement. If you want to talk about ideas for making the garden nicer, and want us to throw in ideas without thinking about them, say so and we'll do our best. We may then need to lie down in a darkened room for a while on our own.
Maybe the answer for me and Mr Nen is to get a dog.
In LeRoc's scenario I'd say, "Weren't you telling me some interesting things about your children last time we met?" If the answer is yes, that's the conversation sorted for the rest of the evening. If not, all I've done is make myself look a bit forgetful with the implied compliment to them of "You're such an interesting person, it must have been you I was talking to."
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
Maybe the answer for me and Mr Nen is to get a dog.
"Shall we get a dog?"
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
Maybe the answer for me and Mr Nen is to get a dog.
"Shall we get a dog?"
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
No.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
la vie en rouge: ISTM a much better way of starting would have been, “I would like to get a coffee table. How would you feel about that?”
You're being way too demanding here (and so is Alan).
If I've already decided that I want to buy something but the decision depends on someone else also, "Do you think we should buy X?" is a perfectly fine way of asking this. In fact, putting it this way can even be seen as avoiding to put pressure on the other person.
Or, let's look at it from the other side. Suppose that someone would ask me "Do you think we should buy X?" I would probably be observing tone and body language, and I'd pick up by simple empathy that this person *really* wants to buy X. I would then take this into account in the way I formulate my answer (be it positive or negative).
A couple of pages ago, it was said a number of times on this thread rather emphatically that introverts are more aware of other people's feelings than extroverts. If this is the case, shouldn't you have picked up on what your housemate wanted?
quote:
Alan Cresswell: They are different sorts of questions.
Perhaps a difference between introverts and extroverts is that we don't spend energy thinking about whether we're asking an open or a closed question?
Picking up on what I've said before, this means that I'm willing to take a risk that someone's feelings may get hurt. But the pay-off is an easier-flowing conversation for both of us.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
You're being way too demanding here (and so is Alan).
It's Hell. I'll be as demanding as I like.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Alan Cresswell: It's Hell. I'll be as demanding as I like.
Of course. But demanding that people take this kind of effort in formulating their questions outside of Hell (which is where la vie en rose's conversation with her housemate happened) may be a bit too much.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And, maybe it's a bit much to expect other people to make the effort to decide whether or not an apparently straight forward question is actually about something else entirely.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Alan Cresswell: And, maybe it's a bit much to expect other people to make the effort to decide whether or not an apparently straight forward question is actually about something else entirely.
You're getting a bit too abstract for me here, and I've just had my first end-of-beautiful-spring-morning wine on my balcony. Could you apply what you're saying to something more concrete (like la vie en rouge's example)?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The example bashed around already is
"Shall we get a fountain?" being a simple question about whether to buy a garden water feature. A yes/no answer, with expected qualification.
But, really the question was "I want to revamp the garden, but a water feature isn't going to feature at all". Which isn't really a question at all.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Of course. But demanding that people take this kind of effort in formulating their questions outside of Hell (which is where la vie en rose's conversation with her housemate happened) may be a bit too much.
You're going to take up my time and effort with your conversation. It seems to me that asking you to phrase your opening gambit in a way that isn't misleading is a fairly basic part of common courtesy.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Alan Cresswell: And, maybe it's a bit much to expect other people to make the effort to decide whether or not an apparently straight forward question is actually about something else entirely.
Wait, I get what you're saying now. It was a reaction to me saying to lver "shouldn't you have picked up on what your housemate wanted?"
This spurred by lot of people saying "introverts are more aware of other people's feelings than extroverts" before on this thread. If this assertion is true, then this is indeed what I would expect.
quote:
Leorning Cniht: You're going to take up my time and effort with your conversation. It seems to me that asking you to phrase your opening gambit in a way that isn't misleading is a fairly basic part of common courtesy.
There's nothing misleading about asking "Do you think we should buy X?"
Look, all of us have probably read something about Communication Theory or about the different models that exist about inter-human communication. No serious scientist thinks that communication is about being able to put our thoughts in words as exactly as possible and then reconstructing these thoughts at the other end of the channel, and that getting better in doing this is the way to resolve the problems that arise in human communication.
Getting everyone to put their thoughts into words in a more exact way won't be the solution to your problems. This isn't even theoretically possible, and a failure to do this isn't a lack of courtesy.
(There's also a cultural dimension to this. Try living in Africa thinking that direct and exact communication is the solution to your problems.)
Human communication is messy, and it always will be. For an introvert, this leads them to worrying, which I think is what drains your energy. For me, it's part of the fun.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
... There's nothing misleading about asking "Do you think we should buy X?"...
If you've already decided you want X and you don't really care about their opinion and the purpose of the conversation is to persuade the other person to go along, yeah, it is. I (foolishly, apparently) assume that if someone asks what I think about something, they want to know what I think and might actually take it into account.
The honest, non-passive-aggressive, non-misleading alternative would be "I really want a coffee table. Is that OK with you?"
People who ask "Do you ..." instead of having the guts to say "I want ... ", really should remember that one possible answer is, "No, I don't."
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider: Do you want to know how his children are?
Yes. I didn't express this very clearly, but when I ask such a question, my interest is genuine.
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider: I might go as far as "would he like me to ask about his children", but it's a pointless train of thought because I have no way of knowing the answer to that before I do it anyway.
Okay. My speculation was that introverts might go into this train of thought anyway, even if it may be pointless (this is not an accusation; our thought processes aren't always rational). But what you're telling me is that I'm wrong here.
It being pointless doesn't stop me from going down this train of thought. I couldn't not think these things. It'd be like trying not to think about pink elephants.
But it is tiring. I can see how talking without thinking would be less so, but I can't imagine how that would work. I can't say words if I haven't already thought them. For what it's worth, and I've no idea if this has anything to do with extro/introversion, but I think almost exclusively in words. Usually lots of them at once. There may be mental illustrations, but they're just that - illustrations. I can't imagine not thinking words.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
For what it's worth, and I've no idea if this has anything to do with extro/introversion, but I think almost exclusively in words. Usually lots of them at once. There may be mental illustrations, but they're just that - illustrations. I can't imagine not thinking words.
I think in words, and in images, and in feelings, and in mathematics. I don't speak any foreign languages well enough to think in them, although I'm told that those that do think differently in different languages. Oh, and I think in music, a little (but not very well).
My logical reasoning is exclusively verbal, though, and that tends to dominate.
A consequence of this is that I find it fairly easy (and not tiring) to discuss some product of analytical logic (because those thoughts are in words) or mathematics (because that's basically words too), but hard to discuss anything with emotive content because those thoughts aren't in words, and it takes significant self-analysis to find the correct word.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
After 40 years I don't even try to talk things through with my husband. I process things verbally by chatting to the dogs.
This strikes me as very sensible, from the point of view of someone who isn't a verbal processor. It took me a long time to realise that a lot of the time, when my ex said something, she didn't necessarily mean it, which can be very frustrating. Sometimes when she said something, it was actually what she thought about things; other times, it was part of the journey of getting there.
From your husband's point of view, he probably spends a fair amount of energy trying to figure out what you actually think about things, due to your verbal processing.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If I ask him anything I know the answer will be slow coming with no 'real' discussion. He's like you in a group, he's not silent and is socially perfectly competent. It's at home when he's relaxing that silence falls.
Everyone needs to be able to process things in their own way, and in their own time. Your way of processing things is to talk (what you would call 'discussion') and allow your thoughts to form.
His way of processing things is to have some time to think through it all. He is incapable of having a discussion until he has done this. This is incredibly important for you to grasp.
One day my ex phoned me about our daughter (7) having her ears pierced. This is not something I had ever considered - in my mind, it's something that you get done at 13+. She wanted to have an immediate conversation / discussion about it. I simply couldn't. She got frustrated with me 'because I was unable to discuss it'. Well, yeah, because I'd never thought about it. I knew what my emotional reaction was ("no way!"). But I needed time and space to figure out whether emotional reaction was reasonable or not. It was hard enough work just explaining that I could not have a conversation there and then.
But anyway, I spent a week thinking about it, talked to some friends whose daughters had their ears pierced, and asked a couple of other people what they thought. Then, I talked to my ex, and had an actual genuine discussion about it, much less heated, and came to an agreement. And it was fine.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Hopes and plans and things you feel strongly about don't have to be set in stone either, you know - they can change and grow as you talk them through.
Sure, but what you're missing is that they can change and grow as you think them through as well as talk them through. And for a non-verbal processor, that's where that mostly happens. From our point of view, the conversation is where we gather more data. Then we can go away and feed it into the brain/computer and see what result comes out. But my computer cannot gather data and process it at the same time, in the same way that yours can.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
He seems to have the idea that once he's said it he's committed to it.
I would guess that's your (wrong) perception because of the above. My ex has levelled the criticism at me that I'm inflexible / won't change my mind in a similar way. I am totally up for changing my mind, given new data. I'm very unlikely to change my mind during a conversation (in the way that she might). But give me things to think about, give me space to go away and think about them / research them, then come back and discuss it anew, I might well have changed my mind.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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