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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kindertransport refugees are wrong.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Say two charming Kent Tory MPs. The people, including Alf Dobbs, who have been challenging the government to do something about unaccompanied children at Calais don't know what they are talking about.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
In principle I can accept the possibility that having been a child refugee 80 years ago might give you a very powerful insight into what it means to be a child refugee but doesn't guarantee you any special insight into the practicalities and wider aspects of how to handle this particular problem today.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I don't think Lord Dubbs and his friend are wrong.
But I find it ironic that they're fighting for the UK to take in child migrants, almost exclusively male, many of whom have been taught since birth that the noble Baron and his fellow Kindertransport traveller should be exterminated because they are jews.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Quite, let's prioritize a gender-balanced grouping of children who have not been polluted by such a backward culture before we see what compassion is left for these more miserable specimens.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
child migrants, almost exclusively male, many of whom have been taught since birth that the noble Baron and his fellow Kindertransport traveller should be exterminated because they are jews.
What the fuck are you on about?
First, I haven't heard anything about this children be mostly boys (let alone almost exclusively). Certainly the pictures of refugees I've seen don't seem to be particularly dominated by boys. Perhaps I'm not reading the right sort of trashy newspapers and relying too much on the uber-liberal BBC.
And, I assume you are imply by the second part that they have been raised as anti-semitic. While I accept that the Middle East (Syria in particular) has a strong antipathy to the state of Israel, that's a long way from "exterminated because they are Jews". There is, sadly, an obscene history of anti-semitism among Western Christian churches, I don't know whether the Orthodox and Coptic churches of the Middle East share that particular heresy, but I suppose it's possible. Islam, of course, teaches respect and tolerance for the "people of the book" and historically muslim-majority countries have retained sizable minorities of Jewish and Christian communities. Daesh has been a lot less tolerant of anyone who doesn't adhere to their particularly narrow set of beliefs, but that's not relevant when discussing people who are fleeing the evils they promote.
Besides which, even if a small number of those children have been taught anti-semitism (that should be considered heretical under bother Christianity and Islam) does that make any difference? Should they suffer for the mistakes of their parents?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The child migrants that we are being urged to take - rightly, IMO - are those who are unaccompanied. The overwhelming majority of these are male: girls stay with the family and the few that are alone are so because they've become separate from their family or because parent(s) have died.
Jews have faced persecution in Iraq and Syria for decades, being deprived of rights, stripped of property, denied the possibility of legally migrating, etc. At the same time the line promulgated by the education departments in both countries were that jews were inherently traitors and so to be feared, controlled and punished.
There is only one jew left in Pakistan and the curriculum in the schools there teaches that the state of Israel should not exist, nor the jews that live there. The religious schools of Afghanistan are no different.
Any refugee schools in the middle east that use books donated by the government of Saudi Arabia are using texts that are inherently anti-semitic - a Goddaughter who worked in one run by the EU was appalled but was told not to fuss when she questioned this.
I'm not saying these child migrants should "suffer for the mistakes of their parents?" but you're dealing with children who are going to present very profound challenges over-and-above those normally to be expected by those who foster older children. And attitudes to other faiths, and to women, are not going to help at all.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The child migrants that we are being urged to take - rightly, IMO - are those who are unaccompanied. The overwhelming majority of these are male: girls stay with the family and the few that are alone are so because they've become separate from their family or because parent(s) have died.
Unfortunately I'm not sure if this is true in the South of Europe. By the time they get to Calais, a stupidly large number have simply disappeared to who-knows-where.
quote:
Jews have faced persecution in Iraq and Syria for decades, being deprived of rights, stripped of property, denied the possibility of legally migrating, etc. At the same time the line promulgated by the education departments in both countries were that jews were inherently traitors and so to be feared, controlled and punished.
Iraq is a fucking mess and Syria is certainly getting to be, but this is a non-sequitur - what have the boys got to do with alleged government policies?
I'm not sure it is actually accurate to say that either government themselves are against Jews. Of course, that's not to say anything about the marauding bandits who seem to attack any minorities in both places - Christians, Jews and others.
quote:
There is only one jew left in Pakistan and the curriculum in the schools there teaches that the state of Israel should not exist, nor the jews that live there. The religious schools of Afghanistan are no different.
Pakistan? What? In 2013 it was said that there were "around 800 Jewish voters registered in Pakistan out of which 427 are women and 382 men.” source
So they might have all left, but I still don't see why this is relevant.
quote:
Any refugee schools in the middle east that use books donated by the government of Saudi Arabia are using texts that are inherently anti-semitic - a Goddaughter who worked in one run by the EU was appalled but was told not to fuss when she questioned this.
This I can believe. But still, what has that got to do with the unaccompanied children currently in Europe?
quote:
I'm not saying these child migrants should "suffer for the mistakes of their parents?" but you're dealing with children who are going to present very profound challenges over-and-above those normally to be expected by those who foster older children. And attitudes to other faiths, and to women, are not going to help at all.
They're fucking children.
For fuck's sake. What is your problem with victims fleeing violence and seeking asylum?
The funny thing is that we didn't use this ridiculous victim-blaming argument to pass the buck on accepting children from the kindertransport (yes, we ferried them around the world because nobody wanted them. Sound familiar?).
We just went straight for the "don't want them, don't want their dirty diseases" mantra.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
In principle I can accept the possibility that having been a child refugee 80 years ago might give you a very powerful insight into what it means to be a child refugee but doesn't guarantee you any special insight into the practicalities and wider aspects of how to handle this particular problem today.
It is a moral argument that says a rich country has a responsibility under international law to house refugees fleeing war, particularly children.
Somehow it is fine to sit around moaning about migrants currently here (mostly working hard in crap jobs for low pay) whilst simultaneously trying to suggest that our geography means that we don't actually have to do anything to help the problem we helped create.
Go on then, brainbox, educate us all about how practicalities mean that we're only able to house 4000 migrants whereas Germany took 1.1 million.
If we don't leave the EU, it'll serve us right if the rest of the continent disowns us for being the money-grabbing bastards that we are. We're all for the EU when it gives us things, but suddenly when the 6th biggest economy in the world is asked to step up and do something to help with a problem that our near-bankrupt neighbours simply cannot deal with, suddenly we're asserting that there are practical problems that mean we're entitled to do nothing at all.
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arse
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
It's not for me to say how we should handle it. I am very happy to believe that the ex-Kindertransport children can remind us of important things about the moral argument. But soemone has to worrk out the practicalities too.
For what it's worth, I think that any with connections here already- and I understand that there are some- are our responsibility regardless of what anyone else does, and the same principle applies for any who have connections in any other EU country. As for the rest, the EU collectively should offer refuge and assess asylum claims. This means that some will come here and some will stay in France and some will probably go to Ireland and Belgium and Estonia and Slovenia and Denmark and so on. They may not be where they might prefer to be, but they will not be where they defintiely don't want to be (i.e. Syria) and they will be safe. But that is only my opinion.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It is a moral argument that says a rich country has a responsibility under international law to house refugees fleeing war, particularly children.
You should tell that to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (currently not accepting refugees), Japan (took in 11 last year) and Russia (has taken in 2).
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
That shouldn't be a green light for us to duck out of our responsibilities as well.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It shouldn't be a green light for the rest of the world to sit back and watch and leave it to Europe. It's a global problem, not specifically a European one. We've already made an effort, now someone else can start taking some responsibility.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Thing is that we're not in charge of the rest of the world. We're only in charge of what we can do for the refugees that come to us. Being unsympathetic isn't going to spur the rest of the world into action.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
... It's a global problem, not specifically a European one. We've already made an effort, now someone else can start taking some responsibility.
You also mentioned countries such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait not accepting refugees. I agree that it's a global problem; I imagine a lot of Europeans would agree with the view that 'Europe has made an effort and someone else can start taking responsibility'. I wonder if people who see is that way are aware that the 10 top refugee-hosting countries (by October 2015) were:-
Turkey
Pakistan
Lebanon
Iran
Ethiopia
Jordan
Chad
Kenya
Uganda
China
(source: Amnesty International).
Admittedly, the numbers will have changed since October 2015. Germany and Sweden have taken in more refugees, while "Excluding Germany and Sweden, the remaining 26 EU countries have pledged around 30,903 resettlement places, or around 0.7% of the Syrian refugee population in the main host countries" (source). 30,903 does not seem like a huge number, compared to:-
"Turkey hosts 2.5 million refugees from Syria, more than any other country worldwide
Lebanon hosts approximately 1.1 million refugees from Syria which amounts to around one in five people in the country
Jordan hosts approximately 635,324 refugees from Syria, which amounts to about 10% of the population
Iraq where 3.9 million people are already internally displaced hosts 245,022 refugees from Syria
Egypt hosts 117,658 refugees from Syria"
(same source)
I wonder how people in countries such as Turkey, Pakistan, Jordan and Lebanon would feel about the suggestion that countries outside Europe "start" taking responsibility for refugees?
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm not saying these child migrants should "suffer for the mistakes of their parents?" but you're dealing with children who are going to present very profound challenges over-and-above those normally to be expected by those who foster older children. And attitudes to other faiths, and to women, are not going to help at all.
I wonder if it would have been acceptable to say something like;
"I know these Jewish children shouldn't suffer for the mistakes of their parents, but you've got to remember that they come from a culture that doesn't lose much sleep over the oppression of Palestinian Christians and they're now coming to a culture with a lot of Christian influence and a large number of Christians. They are going to have attitudes that will not help them to cope in UK society."
If not what is the difference?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan are now pretty much at bursting point. I can't speak for Turkey or Jordan but the real figures for Lebanon are closer to 1:4 being a Syrian refugee because not all of them are registered. People are sleeping in public spaces, in doorways, under bridges. The hospitals and mental health services can't cope, the schools don't have room, housing the families is a problem and that and unemployment have led to ethnic tensions and curfews in some villages.
The children in refugee camps in the Bekaa valley are Syria's future. They've been out of school for months, maybe years, many are just running wild. Babies have been born in the camps, children are growing up there - just as with the long-established Palestinian camps. This is a situation Lebanon wanted to avoid. They've closed the borders to refugees for this reason. Volunteers are doing what they can to feed, clothe and educate refugees but it really is a drop in the ocean.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Being unsympathetic isn't going to spur the rest of the world into action.
If Europe starts taking a harder line on this then the rest of the world will have to do something. They're not doing it because Europe is. We are not inexhaustible and we cannot sustain significant increases in population without some impact on services. I keep saying this, but the way I see it, it is a global problem and others need to get involved and help with this.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
If Europe starts taking a harder line on this then the rest of the world will have to do something. They're not doing it because Europe is.
I don't see any evidence that most of the world gives a shit about how many refugees die or are born and live in poverty and without dignity. The need is already overwhelming. Add some tens of thousands that we could have taken but don't and the suffering urging others to act is no different. Playing chicken with their suffering doesn't seem smart to me.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
A thing we have done - as I found out yesterday from a relation with a guest.
Over here as an unaccompanied child when aged, probably, 14, and accepted as such. Cared for, educated, fostered, until the day decreed to be his 18th birthday. Thrown out of care with nothing. Still here - how would he go anywhere else? On the streets. Fortunately found by someone working with a charity.
Currently, not allowed to work, nor allowed to work voluntarily for nothing.
My relation expressed an opinion in what would have been bold, capitals, and with exclamation marks about our government.
"How to make enemies and influence people" seems to be their training manual.
Doesn't seem to be working in the particular case, though.
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
A thing we have done - as I found out yesterday from a relation with a guest.
Over here as an unaccompanied child when aged, probably, 14, and accepted as such. Cared for, educated, fostered, until the day decreed to be his 18th birthday. Thrown out of care with nothing. Still here - how would he go anywhere else? On the streets. Fortunately found by someone working with a charity.
Currently, not allowed to work, nor allowed to work voluntarily for nothing.
My relation expressed an opinion in what would have been bold, capitals, and with exclamation marks about our government.
"How to make enemies and influence people" seems to be their training manual.
Doesn't seem to be working in the particular case, though.
From friends working with child refugees from Kosovo, I l learned that young people are also told that now they're 18, they no longer have residence in the UK as they can return home as the areas they fled are now "safe".
The problem with that is many of these young people have made lives here, but have no support networks etc back in Kosovo. And, although the areas they left are now safe, everyone from their particular ethnic group has fled and their return would not be welcomed by the group left in control.
Tubbs
[ 25. May 2016, 13:04: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Some years ago I met a Palestinian refugee in the UK. His case took forever to resolve, but the silly thing was that even if it had been resolved to send him back they couldn't - because he was stateless and there was no "back" to send him.
Meantime he was living in limbo-land, not allowed to work, not getting any assistance for living, and dependent on the generosity of strangers.
Another person I met was a student from an African country. They'd already completed one degree, had an offer to begin a second - but the authorities couldn't or wouldn't make a decision - even though it appeared to be the most straightforward of cases.
Meanwhile she was staying with a friend for several years until the university said that they couldn't hold the place open any longer and she left the country to complete her education in a country who actually seemed to want her there.
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arse
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
If Europe starts taking a harder line on this then the rest of the world will have to do something. They're not doing it because Europe is.
That seems to me the polar opposite of how human psychology actually works.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
That seems to me the polar opposite of how human psychology actually works.
Does it. Have you never had the experience of asking a group of people for a volunteer to do something, and finding that it's almost always the same people who volunteer each time?
On a local level, to take one instance from daily working life, whenever a photocopier runs out of paper/jams/needs a new cartridge/has a problem, you will quite often find that people just walk away and leave it for someone else to sort out rather than do anything about it themselves. The same will be true of the coffee machine/printer/any other piece of equipment/supplies.
Get into difficulties in public and one or two people may come to help but the majority will stand back, watch, and these days, probably take photos on their mobile phones. If they even bother to notice.
As a general principle people will usually sit back and wait for someone else to do something, rather than step up themselves. Providing someone is doing something, there's no perceived need for anyone else to do anything. If you live in a community where most people want to help when there's an emergency, you are truly blessed.
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
If Europe starts taking a harder line on this then the rest of the world will have to do something. They're not doing it because Europe is.
That seems to me the polar opposite of how human psychology actually works.
All that will happen if "Europe takes a harder line" is what happened during WWII when Jews etc who'd figured out what was coming tried to get to safer parts of Europe. Those who could fled and those that couldn't perished. The reason the Franks went into hiding was because they couldn't get visas to the US or elsewhere. And then after the war, everyone got terribly upset and guilty about the lives that could have been saved ... When it was a bit late.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Sure the rest of the world outside Europe isn't doing anything. I somehow do not think Europe are amongst the worlds poorest countries.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Some years ago I met a Palestinian refugee in the UK. His case took forever to resolve, but the silly thing was that even if it had been resolved to send him back they couldn't - because he was stateless and there was no "back" to send him.
Meantime he was living in limbo-land, not allowed to work, not getting any assistance for living, and dependent on the generosity of strangers.
Interestingly, Japan which has a horrendously slow system for assessing asylum claims and grants a very small number of people asylum, allows those waiting for a decision to work, study etc. Though the numbers are still tiny - 2015 saw only 7,586 applications for asylum, and accepted only 27 (all of whom had applied before 2015). At least, by allowing applicants to work, one part of the system here is right.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Ariel - I don't disagree with any of that but would draw the opposite conclusion.
The bystander effect describes the way people in a crowd don't intervene because they assume someone else will do so, *even when they can blatantly see everyone else not doing anything*. Conclusion: Europe not intervening would not spur Saudi Arabia into action.
Likewise, IME if people are slow to volunteer for stuff and the stuff isn't actually essential for the community's survival, that sends a message that you're 'allowed' not to volunteer and the stuff doesn't get done.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
This is a load of old humbug anyway; the narrative that is passed around is that Europe is doing more than the surrounding countries in the Middle East.
Rubbish. Jordan and Lebanon have already large numbers of refugees living below the poverty line.
And the idea that any of the ME countries, other than maybe Turkey, are stable enough to take millions more war refugees is obviously not the case. I wouldn't wish Saudi on anyone, never mind vulnerable refugees used to the relative freedoms of pre-war Syria. Never mind the fact that Saudi and the other oil-rich countries are hardly able to support the population of refugees anyway.
Even Turkey is a mess, and hardly the place one would hang around in as a refugee.
Why would anyone risk their lives on the most insane - and very likely suicidal - trip to Europe if there was anywhere else that they could go?
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arse
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