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Source: (consider it) Thread: ABC to solve easier problem... a fixed date for Easter
gog
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According to the Independant the ABC wishes to have a fixed date for Easter and achieve this is the next 5 years?

So what to Shipmates think?

[edited thread title]

[ 21. January 2016, 16:38: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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gog
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Personally I think the Indy has mixed up the story with the one about a common date between east and west, as reported here and I think already discussed on the ship (or my memory might be going)
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mr cheesy
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Nope, I watched the press conference, it was definitely suggested that there should be a static date for Easter that everyone recognised.

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arse

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Freddy
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If they come up with a fixed date I hope that we also get a fixed date for Passover, since the two are connected. Seems unlikely.

The strange thing is that there is no real biblical rationale for any dating of Easter other than fixing it to Passover. Which we don't really do even now.

I guess the other rationale would be to count the days back from Christmas, since counting forward from the imagined date of the crucifixion was apparently how December 25th was chosen. [Paranoid]

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Pigwidgeon

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Well, if the ABC sets a date for Easter, I guess TEC won't have to participate since he doesn't consider us to be part of the family.

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Mudfrog
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I agree with you Freddy ( [Yipee] ) The only reason that Easter is not celebrated at passover is because of antisemitism. Constantine said "Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."

I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.

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mr cheesy
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I'm wondering the extent to which secular authorities would have to be involved - clearly there is a whole load of Christianity which was not included in the discussion process revealed by the ABofC, but also I'm guessing that there must be some kind of secular tie to the dating of Easter by various countries.

Would it need a major rewrite of law?

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arse

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:


I guess the other rationale would be to count the days back from Christmas, since counting forward from the imagined date of the crucifixion was apparently how December 25th was chosen. [Paranoid]

December 25th was chosen because it was Saturnalia.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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Penny S
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I thought it was because it was the birthday of Sol Invictus (as well).
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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.

I agree with this.

Except that I'm wondering how strongly the Bible indicates that Jesus rose on a Sunday.

In any case, Easter would not take place on the Passover itself, but the day after. I think... [Confused]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Lamb Chopped
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I'd rather we leave things as is, instead of starting up new fights and divisions in the church-as-a-whole.

Besides, one of the good things about the weirdness of Easter dating is its very inefficiency. It does us good to have at least one major holiday dancing around the calendar and reminding us that the world is not a neat and efficient place, and we are not robots. And it does us good to learn to respect varying practices, East and West, and to enjoy one another's differences.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.

I agree with this.

Except that I'm wondering how strongly the Bible indicates that Jesus rose on a Sunday.

In any case, Easter would not take place on the Passover itself, but the day after. I think... [Confused]

Jesus was killed at Passover. He rose on the first day of the week, according to the Gospels, which is of course, Sunday.

He rose again on the third day - death on Friday (1st day), in the tomb on Saturday (2nd day), rose again on the Sunday (3rd day).

[ 15. January 2016, 17:21: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Anglican_Brat
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Easter this year seems too early which means Lent arrives early this year, thus the Season after Epiphany is short.

I suspect that if a uniform date for Easter is decided, that it'll be somewhere in early April.

I like the variability of the Easter date, it adds a little flexibility in the liturgical year.

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Albert Ross
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm wondering the extent to which secular authorities would have to be involved - clearly there is a whole load of Christianity which was not included in the discussion process revealed by the ABofC, but also I'm guessing that there must be some kind of secular tie to the dating of Easter by various countries.

Would it need a major rewrite of law?

The UK government have already passed the Easter Act 1928

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'd rather we leave things as is, instead of starting up new fights and divisions in the church-as-a-whole.

Besides, one of the good things about the weirdness of Easter dating is its very inefficiency. It does us good to have at least one major holiday dancing around the calendar and reminding us that the world is not a neat and efficient place, and we are not robots. And it does us good to learn to respect varying practices, East and West, and to enjoy one another's differences.

Lamb Chopped, that gets three of these.

[Overused] [Overused] [Overused]

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Mudfrog
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But just think of the missional opportunities!!
The Church changes the date and people not only ask 'why' but also 'what is it?

What an opportunity to tell people about church unity and most of all about the atonement and the resurrection.

Many people still think Easter is Easter Bunnies and chocolate eggs - this would be a worldwide chance to tell them about Jesus!

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Og, King of Bashan

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Some of us with late February or early March birthdays (I'm March 5th) like that our birthdays don't always fall during Lent, and on some years even correspond with Fat Tuesday.

I'll note that the ABC isn't in that group. Coincidence? [Paranoid]

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Stercus Tauri
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'd rather we leave things as is, instead of starting up new fights and divisions in the church-as-a-whole.

Besides, one of the good things about the weirdness of Easter dating is its very inefficiency. It does us good to have at least one major holiday dancing around the calendar and reminding us that the world is not a neat and efficient place, and we are not robots. And it does us good to learn to respect varying practices, East and West, and to enjoy one another's differences.

Agreed on every count, especially the last one. Just imagine another schism in the Scottish churches... Oy vey. And some of us would never get used to celebrating Good Friday on a Tuesday, for example, if the calendar told us we had to.

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mr cheesy
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FWIW, I think the ABofC was talking about having it in a specific week, not tied to a particular date. I apologise if I gave the wrong impression.

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arse

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Schroedinger's cat

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So having overseen the start of a major split over homosexuality, he is now wanting to oversee another split over the data of Easter.

I am sure, if it is fixed, then some groups/churches will insist on retaining the "One True Original Date", and celebrate "When Jesus Did". So introducing more division.

Ever since I left Anglicanism, it has been trying to destroy itself. I am sure there is no connection.

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Ricardus
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I believe March 25th was used by some parts of the Early Church.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Some of us with late February or early March birthdays (I'm March 5th) like that our birthdays don't always fall during Lent, and on some years even correspond with Fat Tuesday.

I'm also an early March baby, and I also enjoy sometimes having Shrove Tuesday or Ash Wednesday, sometimes being before Lent and sometimes during. My sister, with an April birthday, sometimes had Maundy Thursday or Good Friday, but also sometimes had Easter.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only reason that Easter is not celebrated at passover is because of antisemitism. Constantine said "Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."

It makes a change to blame Constantine for something other than establishing a state religion.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I believe March 25th was used by some parts of the Early Church.

If they adopt March 25, they'll have to move the Feast of the Annunciation.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I believe March 25th was used by some parts of the Early Church.

I don't know if this is a pious explanation made after the fact, but I have heard before that the theory is that Our Lord was both crucified and conceived on March 25th (the legend is that all holy persons die on the same day as their conception). Thus Our Lord's birth is December 25th, marking it 9 months after the conception.

Does anyone know the original source of this legend?

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Demas
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I don't understand. Surely this isn't serious?

Is the idea that the Anglican Communion and the RCC pick a new method for determining Easter and the rest of Christianity/the Church are just along for the ride?

Wouldn't this need some sort of council in the RCC? I assume the Pope couldn't do it alone.

What about the Southern Baptists, to pick a group at random? Are they going to meekly change their dates because the ABC has convinced the Pope that it is a good idea?

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
I don't understand. Surely this isn't serious?

Is the idea that the Anglican Communion and the RCC pick a new method for determining Easter and the rest of Christianity/the Church are just along for the ride?

Wouldn't this need some sort of council in the RCC? I assume the Pope couldn't do it alone.


Why do they need the same Easter? Christmas day is on different days in different parts of the world. Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas day on or near January 7th.

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
I don't understand. Surely this isn't serious?

Is the idea that the Anglican Communion and the RCC pick a new method for determining Easter and the rest of Christianity/the Church are just along for the ride?

Wouldn't this need some sort of council in the RCC? I assume the Pope couldn't do it alone.

What about the Southern Baptists, to pick a group at random? Are they going to meekly change their dates because the ABC has convinced the Pope that it is a good idea?

The Americans did change the date of Daylight Savings Time a few years ago and everyone followed suit.

It might actually be easier to do than we may presume. As far as I know, the tradition of having Easter after the first full moon of the Spring Equinox is not anything more than a convention. There is nothing "Scriptural" about the particular date.

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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Why do they need the same Easter? Christmas day is on different days in different parts of the world. Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas day on or near January 7th.

Orthodox celebrate Christmas on the 25 December, they just disagree what day that is [Smile]

But seriously, for the sake of some convenience we are going to deliberately break a hard won near consensus on the date of Christianity's most holy celebration?

It's delusional.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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leo
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Stupid man - who does he think he is?

I love the fact that the Christian faith does not get accomodated in our man-made obsession with time but takes us out of time.

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Jack o' the Green
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:


I guess the other rationale would be to count the days back from Christmas, since counting forward from the imagined date of the crucifixion was apparently how December 25th was chosen. [Paranoid]

December 25th was chosen because it was Saturnalia.
And because it was 9 months later than the feast of the Annunciation on March 25th.
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Penny S
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Surely that is the other way round - the Annunciation being calculated from the date of Christmas?

Then there is the fiction of the Spring Full Moon being an actual observable in the sky Full Moon, instead of a calculated by tables in the back of the Prayer Book Paschal Full Moon. Isn't there?

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Jack o' the Green
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Surely that is the other way round - the Annunciation being calculated from the date of Christmas?

Apparently not.
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Mark Wuntoo
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A fixed date? Yes, please. Somewhere in the middle of April. Three & a half months from the start of term and three and a half months before the summer holidays.

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Chapelhead

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Surely we need a focus group to consider this sort of thing?

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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
As far as I know, the tradition of having Easter after the first full moon of the Spring Equinox is not anything more than a convention. There is nothing "Scriptural" about the particular date.

Have you tried changing something minor like the time of the services, or moving the pews? Anything the church has done since the older member can remember is at least as binding as scripture.

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Spike

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I believe March 25th was used by some parts of the Early Church.

If they adopt March 25, they'll have to move the Feast of the Annunciation.
Not necessarily. I remember reading once that the Feast of the Anunciation was chosen to coincide with the Crucifixion. It was a Jewish belief that righteous men died on the anniversary of their conception. Early scholars calculated that the most likely date of the Crucifixion was March 25th.

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Rev per Minute
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I believe that the idea was that his earthly life started (in the womb) on the same day that he began his new life (the resurrection) - hence the Annuciation and Easter fell on the same date. There are calculations for the likely date, in modern calendars, of Jesus' crucifixion, depending on which year it happened (Luke is fairly precise about when Jesus' ministry started, even if not all his dates line up). So it could be possible to choose a particular Sunday as closest to that date.

I still expect to see pigs fly past the window before there is an agreed fixed date for Easter - which might mean that I need to take up shooting to get my bacon sandwich for Easter morning.

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fletcher christian

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Ooooooh, nope, it huuurts....aagggghhhhh.....must not..........ah bugger....... I told you so*.

Sorry, I just couldn't keep that in.

*about a month ago if memory serves.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
December 25th was chosen because it was Saturnalia.

...except that it wasn't. Saturnalia was celebrated from December 17 through 23.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I thought it was because it was the birthday of Sol Invictus (as well).

...and Sol Invictus was invented after the birth of Christianity.

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I believe March 25th was used by some parts of the Early Church.

I don't know if this is a pious explanation made after the fact, but I have heard before that the theory is that Our Lord was both crucified and conceived on March 25th (the legend is that all holy persons die on the same day as their conception). Thus Our Lord's birth is December 25th, marking it 9 months after the conception.

Does anyone know the original source of this legend?

Wikipedia is such a great resource.
quote:
It was a traditional Jewish belief that great men lived a whole number of years, without fractions, so that Jesus was considered to have been conceived on March 25, as he died on March 25, which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.[86] Sextus Julius Africanus (c. 160 – c. 240) gave March 25 as the day of creation and of the conception of Jesus.[87] In his work Adversus Haereses, Irenaeus (c. 130–202) identified the conception of Jesus as March 25 and linked it to the crucifixion at the time of the equinox, with the birth of Jesus nine months after on December 25 at the time of the solstice
So that explains it. [Biased]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Aravis
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# 13824

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There we go. Let's have the first Sunday on or after March 25th. I'm all for it. [Smile]
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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The only advantage I see is that a fixed date for Easter might convinced my employer to put the spring holiday at Easter again so I wouldn't be working during Holy Week.
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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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The bbc news site was reporting that the Vatican had formally announced it would be willing to go for a fixed date for easter, subject to the agreement of other churches and negotiations with national governments, some years ago.

It seems unnecessary to me, but I don`t think it is harmful.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Nick Tamen

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# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'd rather we leave things as is, instead of starting up new fights and divisions in the church-as-a-whole.

Besides, one of the good things about the weirdness of Easter dating is its very inefficiency. It does us good to have at least one major holiday dancing around the calendar and reminding us that the world is not a neat and efficient place, and we are not robots. And it does us good to learn to respect varying practices, East and West, and to enjoy one another's differences.

Lamb Chopped, that gets three of these.

[Overused] [Overused] [Overused]

And three more.

[Overused] [Overused] [Overused]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The only advantage I see is that a fixed date for Easter might convinced my employer to put the spring holiday at Easter again so I wouldn't be working during Holy Week.

Unlikely - they tend to prefer giving a holiday during the Easter octave. When they mucked around with school holidays, we had to work up to Maundy Thursday and even have a stafff meeting in the evening - Chrism mass, Mass of the last Supper etc. meant nothing to them - they couldn't see what the fuss was about as, 'after all, you've got Easter off.'

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Mockingbird

Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only reason that Easter is not celebrated at passover is because of antisemitism.

Gregorian Easter is always at passover. It is the Rabbinic feast of Unleavened Bread that is sometimes not celebrated at passover, as for example this year, the Rabbinic calendar designates as Nisan what ought to be the month of Iyar.

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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only reason that Easter is not celebrated at passover is because of antisemitism.

I presume you have evidence for this rather outrageous claim?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Sadly I am rapidly losing any respect for Welby. With so many issues that make a difference to the world and to the church, he wants to spend time and money on fixing something that isn't broken?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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