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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: ABC to solve easier problem... a fixed date for Easter
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Uh, no.
Hate to tell this to you lot who think guys in pointy hats can make these decisions but like it or not, it would be government who would decide if this holiday should be fixed.
One in particular to be honest.
AND, when that happens, dollars to donuts Good Friday loses its statutory holiday status and the holiday becomes the Monday.
We live in a non-Christian world. No way a dude in Rome and a Dude in England and a Dude somewhere east of there get to decide when a few billion people take a holiday.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Sadly I am rapidly losing any respect for Welby.
I think he is a good theological leader, so a senior Bishopric is perfect. I think he is a little out of his depth as ABC. I suspect that the job is out of anyone's depth, but he is not doing well.
I have respect for him as a person, as a theologian, but as the leader of the CofE and the Anglican Communion, no.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
If they come up with a fixed date I hope that we also get a fixed date for Passover, since the two are connected. Seems unlikely.
Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
RightPassover starts on 15 Nisan. And since months in the Hebrew calendar are designed to coincide with the phases of the moon, 15 Nisan should always be on (or almost on) the full moon. Hence making Easter the Sunday after the full moon.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
The reason that the western Easter does not always match the Passover is that Christians are better astronomers than the Jews. Just look for the full moon during holy week.
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I thought these meetings were about standardising Easter across the Eastern and Western churches or calendars rather than giving it a fixed day-of-the-year type date.
I like the way it changes with the moon.
But then, I like the way anything changes with the moon...
Pessach/Passover is the "nail" in the Jewish calendar and everything is calculated from that. To maintain the Holiday on the first full moon of Spring (the ancient Hebrew calendar month of Aviv, the modern Hebrew calendar month of Nissan) adjustments are made to the calendar every few years (according to a very erratic formula) by adding a second month of Adar at the end of winter.
Ramadan does not start till the actual physical sighting of the New Moon over Makkah - so it's sometimes delayed a day...
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
And of course in large swathes of the Orthodox Church, it's calculated from an artificial date that once was on the Equinox but has slipped by 13 days in the intervening centuries due to the imperfections of the Julian calendar and the stubborn refusal to use the more astronomically defensible Gregorian calendar. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Uh, no.
Hate to tell this to you lot who think guys in pointy hats can make these decisions but like it or not, it would be government who would decide if this holiday should be fixed.
One in particular to be honest.
AND, when that happens, dollars to donuts Good Friday loses its statutory holiday status and the holiday becomes the Monday.
We live in a non-Christian world. No way a dude in Rome and a Dude in England and a Dude somewhere east of there get to decide when a few billion people take a holiday.
The only governments that can set holidays for 'a few billion people" are China (1.4 bn people) and India (1.3 bn). The PRC is unlikely to care and in India it seems as if Christian holy days are decided at state rather than national level. I'm guessing that the UN isn't about to decree international holidays?
Enough pedantry for a moment. England and Wales have four of eight Bank Holidays based on a Christian feast (Christmas Day, Boxing Day, Good Friday and Easter Monday), though only two are on Christian feasts (assuming that St Stephen is not considered a major feast). The former Whitsun (Pentecost) holiday became fixed on the last Monday in May in the 1970s. The other three (New Year's Day, May Day, Late Summer) have no religious connection.
Despite this, we still celebrate Pentecost and other feasts without a bank holiday to help us. Losing bank holidays at Easter would cause a row but it would not affect the Christian celebration of those days. Only the Good Friday observances at 3.00 in the afternoon would be affected by people still being at work - but it's a very long time (if ever, considering the emergency services) since everyone had the day off on Good Friday or any Bank Holiday here. Apart from our sense of importance, there would be no harm done if Easter was no longer supported by public holidays.
(YMMV in Scotland and N Ireland, of course)
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
If the US wants Easter to stay on a certain day, it will stay on a certain day. Business runs on US schedules still.
Until then, this discussion means nothing.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I've heard commerce call for a fixed date for Easter sometimes, so that they can plan their sales better. It makes me think "Let them have it. Let them have a fixed date for their eggs and bunnies and bullshit, and we'll continue celebrating Christ's resurrection on our moving date."
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
If the US wants Easter to stay on a certain day, it will stay on a certain day. Business runs on US schedules still.
Until then, this discussion means nothing.
You mean you really think that Christians will change when they celebrate Easter to something decreed by the government? Ever?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
A lot of Christians are going to be unhappy if their government changes the date of the Easter holidays on the basis that the Pope, Coptic Pope and English Pope, sorry, ABC, get together and declare it is a good idea (TM).
Ecumenical doesn't mean the Orthodox, Catholic and Anglicans get together. Will anyone be asking the opinion of the Southern Baptists? The Quakers? Any of the Reformed churches? Lutherans? If so, how? A big ecumenical council? That'd be fun.
There is simply no single or group authority to make this change for the billion Christians in the world and I find it bizarre that anyone would want to go through the effort.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And of course in large swathes of the Orthodox Church, it's calculated from an artificial date that once was on the Equinox but has slipped by 13 days in the intervening centuries due to the imperfections of the Julian calendar and the stubborn refusal to use the more astronomically defensible Gregorian calendar.
Gregorian calendar is named after Bishop of Rome. Is Jesuit plot. If use Gregorian calendar next thing you know you use lightbulbs in church.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
If the US wants Easter to stay on a certain day, it will stay on a certain day. Business runs on US schedules still.
Until then, this discussion means nothing.
If you think the US government would TOUCH the idea of establishing a date for a religious holiday, ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
The beauty of it is, Easter is on a Sunday, so PC-types can ignore the whole thing out of existence. Unlike Christmas, which so inconsiderately falls during the week most years, forcing various shenanigans as people try to pretend they're giving you time off for some other reason.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Sadly I am rapidly losing any respect for Welby.
I think he is a good theological leader, so a senior Bishopric is perfect. I think he is a little out of his depth as ABC. I suspect that the job is out of anyone's depth, but he is not doing well.
I have respect for him as a person, as a theologian, but as the leader of the CofE and the Anglican Communion, no.
Interested to hear you say this SC. Can you point me to anything good he's written?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I've heard commerce call for a fixed date for Easter sometimes, so that they can plan their sales better. It makes me think "Let them have it. Let them have a fixed date for their eggs and bunnies and bullshit, and we'll continue celebrating Christ's resurrection on our moving date."
Hmm. You said nearly the exact same thing last October. I was struck then as now by your use of such an oddly non-specific term - not a particular company or even industry, but "commerce."
Can you describe the form in which "commerce's" call manifested itself?
It seems an odd thing for "commerce" to care about - the argument about planning sales doesn't make much sense, since the calculations for determining the dates in any year are fairly straightforward, if tedious.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Nope, I watched the press conference, it was definitely suggested that there should be a static date for Easter that everyone recognised.
Did Welby himself use the word "static"?
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
And Easter is already on a fixed Sunday. It is always the third Sunday in (Gregorian) Nisan. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Pessach/Passover is the "nail" in the Jewish calendar and everything is calculated from that. To maintain the Holiday on the first full moon of Spring (the ancient Hebrew calendar month of Aviv, the modern Hebrew calendar month of Nissan) adjustments are made to the calendar every few years (according to a very erratic formula) by adding a second month of Adar at the end of winter.
There is nothing "erratic" in the formula. Intercalations are always in the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years of the Rabbinic cycle, which correspond respectively to the 6th, 9th, 11th, 14th, 1st, and 3rd years of the (Western) Christian cycle. The Rabbinic calendar has an implied equinox that is a few days late, however, so in 3 years out of every 19 (the 3rd, 11th, and 14th years of the western Christian cycle) the Rabbinic calendar sets the full moon of Nisan to the second full moon of Spring.
quote:
Originally posted by mouse thief:
And of course in large swathes of the Orthodox Church, it's calculated from an artificial date that once was on the Equinox but has slipped by 13 days in the intervening centuries due to the imperfections of the Julian calendar and the stubborn refusal to use the more astronomically defensible Gregorian calendar. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
And the 13-day solar discrepancy isn't even the worst of it. The four-day lunar discrepancy is even more obvious:
comparison
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
And Easter is already on a fixed Sunday. It is always the third Sunday in (Gregorian) Nisan.
"Fixed Sunday" and "fixed date" are mutually incompatible.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
If the US wants Easter to stay on a certain day, it will stay on a certain day. Business runs on US schedules still.
Until then, this discussion means nothing.
If you think the US government would TOUCH the idea of establishing a date for a religious holiday,
The beauty of it is, Easter is on a Sunday, so PC-types can ignore the whole thing out of existence. Unlike Christmas, which so inconsiderately falls during the week most years, forcing various shenanigans as people try to pretend they're giving you time off for some other reason.
There is no federal holiday related to Easter in the United States. As noted, Easter is always on a Sunday, so federal offices, including the post office, are closed anyway. Neither Good Friday nor Easter Monday are federal holidays.
It is states that declare a Good Friday a public holiday, which means state offices will be closed. My own state was the last to do so, around 25 years ago. Before that, we were the only state to observe Easter Monday instead of Good Friday.
Meanwhile, bank and business holidays in the U.S. are set by the private sector, with each bank or business deciding on its own which days to close and give its employees off.
So, there's no reason for Congress to spend a second hinting about the date of Easter. And if the date of Easter were somehow to change, U.S. federal law would not be affected at all.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
And Easter is already on a fixed Sunday. It is always the third Sunday in (Gregorian) Nisan.
"Fixed Sunday" and "fixed date" are mutually incompatible.
In the Gregorian calendar, Passover is the 14th of (Gregorian) Nisan, and Easter is the following Sunday. This year, 2016, Gregorian Passover is Wednesday, March 23rd, and Easter is the following Sunday, March 27th. Are you saying that there is an incompatibility between a fixed date in the second week of a month and a fixed weekday in the same month's third week?
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Intercalations are always in the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years of the Rabbinic cycle, which correspond respectively to the 6th, 9th, 11th, 14th, 1st, and 3rd years of the (Western) Christian cycle.
Filling in which Western Christian year corresponds to the Rabbinic 14th year is left as an exercise for the reader.
[ 17. January 2016, 21:41: Message edited by: Mockingbird ]
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
(Can a host fix the subject line? I'm assuming that the word "easier" was intended. Thank you!)
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
And Easter is already on a fixed Sunday. It is always the third Sunday in (Gregorian) Nisan.
"Fixed Sunday" and "fixed date" are mutually incompatible.
In the Gregorian calendar, Passover is the 14th of (Gregorian) Nisan, and Easter is the following Sunday. This year, 2016, Gregorian Passover is Wednesday, March 23rd, and Easter is the following Sunday, March 27th. Are you saying that there is an incompatibility between a fixed date in the second week of a month and a fixed weekday in the same month's third week?
"Fixed date" means the date is fixed. Not which Sunday. The date. is fixed. Christmas falls on a fixed date: December 25. In the Christian calendar, the Annunciation falls on a fixed date: March 25. Easter is not a fixed date; it always falls on a Sunday, and based on a weird system.
But let's move out of religious stuff for a moment and see if it helps. In much of the world, Labor Day is the first of May: a fixed date. In the United States, on the other hand, Labor Day is celebrated on the first Monday of September. That is not a fixed date; it could be anywhere from the 1st to the 7th of the month. Our election day is the day after the first Monday of November. That is not a fixed date; it could be anywhere from the 2nd to the 8th of the month. Independence Day, on the other hand, is always on July 4: a fixed date.
Thus I say "fixed date" and "fixed Sunday" are mutually exclusive. If the date is fixed, it will only fall on a Sunday every 6th year or so.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Thus I say "fixed date" and "fixed Sunday" are mutually exclusive. If the date is fixed, it will only fall on a Sunday every 6th year or so.
Then why did you say this in response to a post that never said otherwise?
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I thought this thread was about someone setting a "fixed date" for Easter. You said it was on a "Fixed Sunday" but that's not what the OP was calling for or suggesting, so what you were saying was out of step with the title of the thread, so I pointed that out. Saying Easter is on a fixed Sunday (which it already is, sort of -- very strange way of fixing a Sunday but hey there you go) is not the same as saying it's on a fixed date.
There was a great deal of discussion about, say, the US government fixing a DATE for Easter (as if that would ever happen -- that has been soundly dismissed by Nick Tamen.
So that's what I said what I said when I said it.
[ETA: Sorry, so that's WHY I said what I said when I said it.]
[ 17. January 2016, 22:59: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I thought this thread was about someone setting a "fixed date" for Easter. You said it was on a "Fixed Sunday" but that's not what the OP was calling for or suggesting
The OP was asking for discussion on Archbishop Welby's statement. The only direct quote from Archbishop Welby I have yet found is in this article in The Guardian, which can be taken as referring to either a fixed date or a fixed Sunday:
quote:
Pope Tawadros has put forward the idea to churches in the eastern tradition and the western tradition that it be fixed somewhere around the second or third Sunday of April and we will certainly be joining in. We have agreed that we support that, Welby said.
Also, the possibility of a fixed Sunday being Welby's solution was introduced into this thread above by Rev per minute and by Albert Ross's reference to the statute of 1928.
That is why I wrote what I wrote.
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think we understand each other now.
But seriously the problem is not so much a fixed date or fixed Sunday for Easter. The Orthodox have a fixed Sunday. The RCC and those who follow its calendar (virtually all Protestants) have a fixed Sunday. The Copts & those who follow their calendar (Armenians and Ethiopians, if I'm not mistaken) have a fixed Sunday. But we don't all have the SAME fixed Sunday. So the thread title might more accurately be "... a common date for Easter."
[ 17. January 2016, 23:32: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So the thread title might more accurately be "... a common date for Easter."
It would be a good thing if we all celebrated Easter at the same time. (Although if we're going to do that, we should probably agree on a common Christmas as well.)
It would be a convenient thing if Easter was rather more fixed with respect to our normal calendar, but that's only a mild convenience. In countries that have a school holiday over Easter, it's mildly awkward when the length of the spring term changes significantly. That aside, I'm not sure there are big gains to this.
Having Easter on a fixed date, and celebrating the resurrection on some random day of the week doesn't seem like the right thing to do.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Having Easter on a fixed date, and celebrating the resurrection on some random day of the week doesn't seem like the right thing to do.
There is no way in Hell the Orthodox would sign off on that.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Having Easter on a fixed date, and celebrating the resurrection on some random day of the week doesn't seem like the right thing to do.
It would certainly be odd to have Maundy Monday and Good Tuesday.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
It would certainly be odd to have Maundy Monday and Good Tuesday.
It was rather more the idea of Holy Saturday falling on a Sunday that was making my head explode.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
Dafyd hilariously wrote:
"Gregorian calendar is named after Bishop of Rome. Is Jesuit plot. If use Gregorian calendar next thing you know you use lightbulbs in church."
I had a real LaughOutLoud when I read it. I'm working on a song for my choir called "I wonder as I wander when Easter will be..." Yes, Is Outrage.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
A lot of Christians are going to be unhappy if their government changes the date of the Easter holidays on the basis that the Pope, Coptic Pope and English Pope, sorry, ABC, get together and declare it is a good idea (TM).
Ecumenical doesn't mean the Orthodox, Catholic and Anglicans get together. Will anyone be asking the opinion of the Southern Baptists? The Quakers? Any of the Reformed churches? Lutherans? If so, how? A big ecumenical council? That'd be fun.
There is simply no single or group authority to make this change for the billion Christians in the world and I find it bizarre that anyone would want to go through the effort.
They where asked back in 1997, I'm thinking this is ongoing response.
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Sadly I am rapidly losing any respect for Welby.
I think he is a good theological leader, so a senior Bishopric is perfect. I think he is a little out of his depth as ABC. I suspect that the job is out of anyone's depth, but he is not doing well.
I have respect for him as a person, as a theologian, but as the leader of the CofE and the Anglican Communion, no.
I haven't seen any evidence for him being a "theologian". He's certainly not in the same category as Rowan Williams and there are plenty of others who have shown more theological nous than him. (Jeffrey John for a start!)
I find him a slippery bugger, who will say the things he thinks people want to hear, whilst carrying on his own agenda regardless. I also find it somewhat alarming that he appears to be re-introducing the aspects of the Anglican Covenant which were decisively rejected by so many (not least the C of E itself).
With regards to this specific issue, I must admit that my first impression was that this was being offered by Welby as a red herring, to distract from the farrago over TEC and "Those naughty gays".
It is somewhat alarming that there is such confusion between two different ideas:
a) All churches celebrating Easter at the same time
This would be brilliant if it were achieved. And although there are clearly difficulties in going forward on this, it is not beyond the bounds of expectations.
b) Easter being celebrated on some sort of "fixed" date (most likely the second Sunday in April).
Whilst I am sure that secular authorities would love this, I can see no theological or ecclesiastical rationale for such a radical break with the tradition of the Christian Church. Any attempt to move towards such a decision would surely result in MORE church schisms and disunity.
As I say, these are two different questions. Mixing them up doesn't help anyone.
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Faradiu, dundeibįwa weyu lįrigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
(Can a host fix the subject line? I'm assuming that the word "easier" was intended. Thank you!)
Yes, that was what I first thought. But then I came across this thread just after the ABC's problems with the Dead Horse issue and assumed that fixing a date for Easter must be easier than fixing the DH issue.
Eventually I realised that the typo should read "Easter" rather than "easier". So yes, it does need fixing.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Up until now I for one have read the title word as "easier".
In the absence of agreement on what it should have said, it's staying in all its misspelled glory unless the OPer gives us a clue.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think we understand each other now.
But seriously the problem is not so much a fixed date or fixed Sunday for Easter. The Orthodox have a fixed Sunday. The RCC and those who follow its calendar (virtually all Protestants) have a fixed Sunday. The Copts & those who follow their calendar (Armenians and Ethiopians, if I'm not mistaken) have a fixed Sunday. But we don't all have the SAME fixed Sunday. So the thread title might more accurately be "... a common date for Easter."
I don't think there is any sense where any Christian group has a fixed Sunday for Easter given that it is calculated from the phases of the moon. The difference between those using the different calendars is that the calculation starts from a different point, and therefore gives a different answer.
It appears that what is being discussed is some way to fix Easter in a particular week of the year so that all Christians celebrate it on the same Sunday.
And before we get too carried away with saying what the Orthodox would or wouldn't allow, it probably needs restating that (according to Welby) the proposal comes from the Copts with support from the Orthodox Patriarch and the Pope.
Fairly obviously Easter will always have Good Friday on a Friday and Easter Sunday on a Sunday, so there will always be some variation in the date - however if agreed the variation will be only 6 days rather than the current 35 days (Western Calendar) plus any extra to account for the Gregorian calendar.
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arse
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
Up until now I for one have read the title word as "easier".
In the absence of agreement on what it should have said, it's staying in all its misspelled glory unless the OPer gives us a clue.
/hosting
With appropriate bowing and scrapping to the host ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Yes it should be "easier" - as was said easier than the DH issue...
Joy of working in 2nd language.
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Glad to have been proved right, I have rushed to correct the typo in the title.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And before we get too carried away with saying what the Orthodox would or wouldn't allow, it probably needs restating that (according to Welby) the proposal comes from the Copts with support from the Orthodox Patriarch and the Pope.
I assume you mean the Ecumenical Patriarch. We have a lot of patriarchs.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
..
So, there's no reason for Congress to spend a second hinting about the date of Easter. And if the date of Easter were somehow to change, U.S. federal law would not be affected at all.
Thanks for the clarification. I assumed Good Friday was a Federal Holiday.
State by state discussion of that could be interesting in a "are they really going to change things cause the Pope, some now not involving Americans guy in England and a guy in a beard somewhere in Greece think its a good idea" way.
And if there is no state consensus, then this ain't changing.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of scrapping the lunar computation:
Article here.
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of scrapping the lunar computation:
Article here.
I agree with him.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
..
So, there's no reason for Congress to spend a second hinting about the date of Easter. And if the date of Easter were somehow to change, U.S. federal law would not be affected at all.
Thanks for the clarification. I assumed Good Friday was a Federal Holiday.
State by state discussion of that could be interesting in a "are they really going to change things cause the Pope, some now not involving Americans guy in England and a guy in a beard somewhere in Greece think its a good idea" way.
And if there is no state consensus, then this ain't changing.
I don't see why American states would present an obstacle. Wikipedia lists twelve states in which Good Friday is a holiday; the Illinois statute specifies "the Friday preceding Easter Sunday (Good Friday)" and the Florida statute just says "Good Friday". I haven't checked the others, but I suspect they're similar; I doubt that any of them have incorporated a specific method for determining the date of Easter. As long as religious leaders keep the definition of Good Friday as "the Friday before Easter Sunday" I don't think that setting the date of Easter as the second or third Sunday in April (as Welby has suggested) would require the states to make any statutory changes at all.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of scrapping the lunar computation:
Article here.
I agree with him.
So do I. Now that's unsettling!
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Faradiu, dundeibįwa weyu lįrigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of scrapping the lunar computation:
Article here.
I agree with him.
So do I. Now that's unsettling!
Likewise, and likewise.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I find I'm in agreement with + Nazir-Ali ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
By all means keep the process for dating the religious festival, if we must - but why not move the school and public holidays to fixed dates? That would result in sensible length school terms, unlike this year, for example, when the spring term is ridiculously short and the summer term will be tediously long.
It might even result in improved church attendance on Easter Day - With it being a 4 day weekend, and the kids on holiday, younger members are more likely to be on a beach somewhere.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
By all means keep the process for dating the religious festival, if we must - but why not move the school and public holidays to fixed dates? That would result in sensible length school terms,
In the Uk we have already fixed the school term/holiday dates so as to equalise the length of terms.
So I can't see what the fuss is about and certainly don't think Welby can oveturn the Council fof Nicea in his arrogance.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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