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Source: (consider it) Thread: ABC to solve easier problem... a fixed date for Easter
Rocinante
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
By all means keep the process for dating the religious festival, if we must - but why not move the school and public holidays to fixed dates? That would result in sensible length school terms,

In the Uk we have already fixed the school term/holiday dates so as to equalise the length of terms.

So I can't see what the fuss is about and certainly don't think Welby can oveturn the Council fof Nicea in his arrogance.

?? They may be equal where you live, but round here the spring term is 53 days long and the summer term 68 days. Obviously if Easter is early this will happen as under current arrangements the school holidays are pegged to the religious festival. There is some leeway to keep things more even by having Easter itself at the beginning or end of the holiday but as Easter Day can fall at any time between March 22nd and April 25th, keeping terms equal in length would mean starting the school holiday 2 weeks after Easter in some years. Personally I don't have a problem with this. Many People nowadays - including some churchgoers IME - have only the haziest idea of what Easter is, perhaps this is because they are always on holiday at Easter?
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leo
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So maybe they should look at their diaries.

Why should the Church yesr, fixed at the council of Nicea, acommodate itselef to to Easter bunnies?

Most school calenders remain the same but give two bank holidays for Good Fiday and Easter Monday only.

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Rocinante
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So maybe they should look at their diaries.


They do, and then they say "oh look we've got four days off and Junior's on holiday, let's go to Cornwall"
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Signaller
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Most school calenders remain the same but give two bank holidays for Good Fiday and Easter Monday only.

That must be specific to your locality. Round here (London) I've never known Easter to fall outside the school holidays.
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Chesterbelloc

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'Tain't happening.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
'Tain't happening.

"separated Eastern Christians"
[Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Chesterbelloc

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# 3128

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You like "schismatics" better?

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
'Tain't happening.

Hooray for that.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
You like "schismatics" better?

I am quite capable of saying "Western Christians" without mentioning anything about our relationship with them. I can say "Catholics" without calling them schismatics. Are Catholics incapable of this feat of semantic legerdemain?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
You like "schismatics" better?

Chesterbelloc, which lot are the schismatics here? Calling the whole of the Protestant side of the Reformation names, we are used to and not surprised about. But writing off all the churches that are linked to the other four Patriarchs as schismatics as well is a bit too far. Looking at the events of the 1050s, it's easy to spot the schisms but it's more than a bit difficult to spot which side count as the schismatics.

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Lamb Chopped
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Ooh, ooh, me, please! Can I be a schismatic? It just has that zip to it. And I bet if I put it on my resume, fully half my readers wouldn't have the first clue what it meant. "But it sounds so impressive!"

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:

Why should the Church yesr, fixed at the council of Nicea, acommodate itselef to to Easter bunnies?

Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Amos

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

Why should the Church yesr, fixed at the council of Nicea, acommodate itselef to to Easter bunnies?

Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...
Or bunnies.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Chesterbelloc

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Re the schismatics thing.

The source of that news item I posted was a Trad. conservative (some would say reactionary) Catholic site, which nonetheless usually shows a great deal of respect for the Churches of the East not under the See of Peter. In this case as in many others, there was no criticism of the conduct of the Orthodox - if anything, it implied praise. For them, separated is a politer term than schismatic, which latter would nonetheless be an accurate (if inflammatory) description from a Roman point of view - and the website is by and primarily for Roman Catholics. "Separated Christians" is a softer alternative from a site that you might expect to have been blunter.

To be honest, separated is just a statement of fact - such Churches are, by the fact of their not being in communion with Rome, separated from the Roman Catholic Church. Just as we are separated from them; we can agree on that regardless of who we each think is to blame for that. Really, we don't mind being described as such by the Orthodox. Most Orthodox worldwide would probably consider Romans as schismatics at best - not even a church or Christian at worst.

So it goes. Better to be honest - no hard feelings. Better too, surely, not to strain at gnats.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Better too, surely, not to strain at gnats.

So easy to tell OTHERS not to strain at gnats. "Here let me remove that gnat from your eye."

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...

Whereas Man was made for the business convenience of head teachers, retail CEOs and the proprietors of holiday lets.

[ 30. January 2016, 18:48: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Dafyd
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Whereas everyone knows that all Christian denominations are in fact schismatics from the Anglican Communion. That includes the Anglican Communion.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Whereas everyone knows that all Christian denominations are in fact schismatics from the Anglican Communion. That includes the Anglican Communion.

Especially us Episcopalians in the U.S.

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Chesterbelloc

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# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Better too, surely, not to strain at gnats.

So easy to tell OTHERS not to strain at gnats. "Here let me remove that gnat from your eye."
Wait, shouldn't that be "First remove the camel from thine own gullet that thou mayest breathe clearly to remove the gnat from thy brother's"? Or, "Is that a plank in thy sieve, or art thou just grieved to see me?" What a speck-tacular cocktail of gospel fun.

[ 31. January 2016, 09:15: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...

Whereas Man was made for the business convenience of head teachers, retail CEOs and the proprietors of holiday lets.
I take your point but I was mostly reacting against the idea that because the computation of Easter was decided by the Council of Nicaea, therefore it is immutable until the end of time itself and any change is a sign of arrogance.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Mockingbird

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# 5818

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...

Whereas Man was made for the business convenience of head teachers, retail CEOs and the proprietors of holiday lets.
I take your point but I was mostly reacting against the idea that because the computation of Easter was decided by the Council of Nicaea, therefore it is immutable until the end of time itself and any change is a sign of arrogance.
Immutable or not, the Nicene rule, in its Gregorian implementation, has held up pretty well. It is more accurate, 400 years after it was first set up, than the Julian version was at the corresponding point in its history.

The Gregorian implementation of the Nicene rule strikes a good balance between accuracy and ease of computation. Exact computations are needed only every few thousand years. Between those points, the tables can be reproduced anywhere from a few memorized facts using simple integer arithmetic.

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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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Joesaphat
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Sorry, posted this on the wrong thread, still bears repeating: it's funny how Abp. Welty and so many others don't mind not being 'biblical' on this matter. There's more precise and definite instructions on this than on the proper use of male genitalia, but hey...

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Gee D
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IIRC, declaring what was to be the date for Easter was the annual task and privilege of the Patriarch of Alexandria. Perhaps this custom should be reinstated.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.

It would make perfect sense for all Christian churches join Easter with Passover, which too is a moveable feast. As well as being the right gesture of reconciliation with the Jews, it would end the argument between East and West as to whose calendar has bigger balls.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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LeRoc

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It is beautiful and sunny today, a perfect day for Easter.


Christ has risen indeed!

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Martin60
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More than EVER.

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Love wins

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.

It would make perfect sense for all Christian churches join Easter with Passover, which too is a moveable feast. As well as being the right gesture of reconciliation with the Jews
More likely Jewish people would be insulted - an appropriation of their festival.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Jack o' the Green
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.

It would make perfect sense for all Christian churches join Easter with Passover, which too is a moveable feast. As well as being the right gesture of reconciliation with the Jews
More likely Jewish people would be insulted - an appropriation of their festival.
I agree, plus we would then have the problem of whose chronology to follow - the Synoptic's or the Fourth Gospel's.
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Mockingbird

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# 5818

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.

It would make perfect sense for all Christian churches join Easter with Passover, which too is a moveable feast. As well as being the right gesture of reconciliation with the Jews, it would end the argument between East and West as to whose calendar has bigger balls.
Are you proposing to put Easter always on the Sunday that falls within the Rabbinic Jewish calendar's week of Unleavened Bread? This would certainly work for a while, but the Rabbinic calendar has a slight solar drift that may eventually become a problem. This drift already causes Rabbinic Unleavened Bread to be in the lunar month after Easter in 3 years out of every 19.

Our (Gregorian) Easter is already within the week of Unleavened Bread by the Gregorian calendar. This year, 2016, Easter is Sunday, March 27 which is the 18th of Nisan in the Gregorian lunar calendar.

[ 27. March 2016, 15:06: Message edited by: Mockingbird ]

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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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A Feminine Force
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The formula is fixed I don't see what the problem is, except some businesspeople somewhere feel like they are losing a few pennies here or there for the inconvenience of calculating and planning personnel coverage for the date.

I feel like Christ would have been kicking these guys out of the Temple.

AFF

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dyfrig
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Whereas everyone knows that all Christian denominations are in fact schismatics from the Anglican Communion. That includes the Anglican Communion.

This encapsulates my puzzlement about this whole thing - was it a propsal to agree the calculation process, which makes some sense, or to fix an actusl weekend, which doesn't.

Was he trying to solve s problem nobody has? Or had he been listening a bit too.indulgently to his City friends?

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HughWillRidmee
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Why not have a fixed Easter for secular purposes and let everyone have whatever religious Easter they choose (assuming they want one at all)?

Seems to work for celebrating the alleged birth so why not for the alleged death?

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Why not have a fixed Easter for secular purposes [...]

What are the secular purposes of Easter, and why would they benefit from having a date different from the current one?
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
What are the secular purposes of Easter

Collecting plastic eggs and forcing people to dress up in rabbit costumes?
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dyfrig
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Well, the late Spring Bank Holiday has been detached from Whitsun for a goodly while, so there is precedent. Although logically that should also mean the two Dcember holidays should be detached from the 25 and 26 - perhaps put them around the last full weekend in December?

Easter could go on the second Sunday in April. That would be the tenth (pr occasionally 11th) Sunday after Candlemass. the churches could combine that with making Epiphany last till 2 Fb and restoring Septuagesima et al as a proper run up to Lent.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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dyfrig
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[Strange double posting event - not really worth your time reading the same post twice]

[ 28. March 2016, 07:44: Message edited by: dyfrig ]

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
What are the secular purposes of Easter

Collecting plastic eggs and forcing people to dress up in rabbit costumes?
Going from the small people I have contact with, the answer is hats and parades thereof. Although my nephew's preschool has decided that Easter Hat Parade might be offensive and has dropped the problematic 'Easter' bit, leaving a somewhat strangely unmoored Hat Parade looking lonely by itself.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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earrings
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As I understand, it from the reports I have seen, this came not originally from the ABC but from Orthodox and Roman Catholic sources. The idea would be something like Easter as the second Sunday in April (or possibly the Sunday after the second Saturday, (so makes a difference if 1st April is a Sunday). The date would therefore fluctuate slightly between 8th and 15th April.
We would lose the connection with Passover most years and the "flexibility" of the church year, but would potentially gain a more ecumenically agreed date of Easter and eliminate the very short gap between Candlemas and Lent in years such as this. It's not something I'd go to the stake for either way but it's not entirely stupid, nor is it entirely the ABC's initiative.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Why not have a fixed Easter for secular purposes and let everyone have whatever religious Easter they choose (assuming they want one at all)?

Seems to work for celebrating the alleged birth so why not for the alleged death?

It's baffling as to why the day on which Jesus died was moved around in the first place, for as you say His Birthday has been fixed.
OK He wasn't born on the 25th of December AFAWK, and similarly we do not know the exact date He was killed.
Maybe it was done to keep the Pagan moon-dancers happy.

I suppose if we want to stick to Easter falling on a Sunday then the date will still vary. No different from Bank Holidays thinking about it.

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Cherubim
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I would be very disappointed if there was a move to kow-tow to secularist convenience by making it a fixed date.
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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Cherubim:
I would be very disappointed if there was a move to kow-tow to secularist convenience by making it a fixed date.

What makes you think there's any consideration of "secular convenience" at all?
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Joesaphat
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Let me prophesy: agreeing on a fixed date will only achieve a further split between those who will hold fast to the moveable feast and those who do not.

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Humble Servant
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I heard the Bishop of Chelmsford speak on Good Friday about an ancient tradition that the crucifixion was on 25th March (as this year), on the feast of the annunciation. This, he said, is reason for the traditional image of Christ crucified on a lily - a Marian symbol.
So how about fixing the date as the 25th March going forwards. As with Christmas, if we're not hung up about linking it with Passover and sun and moon cycles, why should we worry about what day of the week it falls? Just go for the same day of the same month each year.

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earrings
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Humble Servant said

quote:
So how about fixing the date as the 25th March going forwards. As with Christmas, if we're not hung up about linking it with Passover and sun and moon cycles, why should we worry about what day of the week it falls? Just go for the same day of the same month each year.
Because Holy Week can still be a week even if it is roughly the same week each year.

The tradition of Jesus crucified on the day of his conception (as it were) makes for some creative theological reflection. I spoke on links between annunciation and crucifixion myself this year. But it ain't actually so given the annunciation is worked out from a Christmas date no one takes as actually the birthdate.

Holy Week needs to be a week in earlyish spring for new life resonance and to give shape to the church year. Its exact date is not a problem, but that it should be a week from Palm Sunday to Easter Sunday is vital.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by earrings:
Holy Week needs to be a week in earlyish spring for new life resonance and to give shape to the church year.

All the Christians south of the Tropic of Cancer called; they would like a word [Roll Eyes]

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earrings
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Eutychus

quote:
All the Christians south of the Tropic of Cancer called; they would like a word 
OUCH. Sorry [Hot and Hormonal] [Hot and Hormonal]

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TomM
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quote:
Originally posted by earrings:
But it ain't actually so given the annunciation is worked out from a Christmas date no one takes as actually the birthdate.
[/QB]

Actually, that point is unproven. There is an equal case that it was arrived at the other way around - i.e. starting from the 25th March as the date of the crucifixion and applying the idea inherited from the classical world that Jesus should have been around a whole number of years (for perfection, you see), and thus must have been born 9 months later, and conceived on the day of his death.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by earrings:
The tradition of Jesus crucified on the day of his conception (as it were) makes for some creative theological reflection.

As does times when it falls on April Fools Day. Fools for Christ and all that.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
So how about fixing the date as the 25th March going forwards.

Because that would usually result in Easter being in a day other than Sunday, and the one thing everyone does agree on, and has agreed on since around the First Council of Nicaea, is that Easter should always be celebrated on a Sunday.

quote:
As with Christmas, if we're not hung up about linking it with Passover and sun and moon cycles, why should we worry about what day of the week it falls?
But linking the date to Passover (albeit indirectly given various calendar issues) is still considered important. As for worrying about the day, it's all tied up with the significance of the resurrection having occurred on the First Day.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by earrings:
The tradition of Jesus crucified on the day of his conception (as it were) makes for some creative theological reflection. I spoke on links between annunciation and crucifixion myself this year. But it ain't actually so given the annunciation is worked out from a Christmas date no one takes as actually the birthdate.

Actually there's very good historical evidence that it goes the other way -- Christmas is on December 25 because the Annunciation was on March 25 because the passion was on (or about) March 25.

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Why not have a fixed Easter for secular purposes and let everyone have whatever religious Easter they choose (assuming they want one at all)?

Seems to work for celebrating the alleged birth so why not for the alleged death?

You can have whatever holidays you want. Who's stopping you?

[ 01. April 2016, 01:01: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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