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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sex workers
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Enoch, I was going to post that, but you beat me to it.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No mistake.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The ruined maid or spoilt goods?
The patriarchal perspective.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I suppose there is one part of me that suspects the problem with sex workers* is a) that they are females earning some money and b) that they are engaged in sex. It seems that the churches problems with both women and sex might be what drives a lot of this.
I've sometimes wondered whether it hasn't been based on jealousy. In previous centuries, a man married to a woman he didn't particularly get on with or find particularly attractive might well have preferred a woman who made herself deliberately enticing, flattered him, was good for his ego, and better in bed than his wife, who was probably struggling with the Christian notion that the whole thing was sinful and disgusting anyway. She would bitterly have resented not just the infidelity but also, in some ways, the freedom such a woman would have had; being outside the rules she could wear what she pleased, have fine clothes and jewellery, and would also get quite a lot more male attention. Some of the more famous courtesans of history were quite popular. Some also made the effort to be well educated and up on the current political situation.
It is somewhat removed from the average streetwalker who was doing it basically to pay the rent and feed the children, of course. But there is a sense in which some courtesans had a freedom the average woman of the era probably didn't have.
I think that's a very romanticised version of historical sex work. For most sex workers it would have been a very dangerous and precarious lifestyle. Life-threatening STIs, backyard abortions, physical violence and ostracism from wider society would have been the lot of 99% of sex workers. To equate a courtesan with the average sex worker is to equate the life of a fishwife with that of a minor royal. Even so, I imagine that courtesans may well have envied the security and social acceptance of the respectable wives of their clients as much as the wives may have resented courtesans (although being spared frequent child bearing or their husband's bizarre predilections may have been desirable for some wives).
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
What Enoch and Evangeline have said.
I'm pretty sure that He would be more merciful to the young ones dragged into prostitution than to the clients*. No doubt that there are some workers who do so from pleasure, or at least quasi-pleasure, at least until they realise the lives they been leading. There would be many more who over the millennia have done so from economic need. Not much romanticism in The Woman of Rome.
*Accepting that there are some clients who for various reasons, usually medical, resort to prostitutes.
[ 21. March 2016, 05:08: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So He'll have degrees of mercy for having been offended less by the decisions of children than their abusers then?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
I think that's a very romanticised version of historical sex work. For most sex workers it would have been a very dangerous and precarious lifestyle.
A police report in 1898 estimated the life expectancy of a street prostitute in Aberdeen at four years.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I'd also want to say that this whole concept of doing something because you really like it is in-and-of-itself problematic.
Pleasure is, in my opinion, a fleeting state. Bodily pleasure experienced from the sun's rays on a beach or the rush from climbing freehand up a cliff or whatever are real and addictive things. But it seems to me that these things are damaging if they become so addictive that you're basing your whole life around experiencing them - pushing yourself harder and harder because the endorphines (or whatever they're called) are only released with more and more effort.
That's not to disparage free climbing or sitting on a beach - but, I think, it is to say that pleasure-seeking for its own sake is destructive. The pursuit of pleasure leads to a shallow life.
I find it very hard to understand how someone who is having a lot of sex on a regular work-a-day basis truly and honestly because they crave the sensation are anything other than shallow and have lost something of their humanity.
But then I think the same thing about a lot of things in our contemporary society, which in my opinion seems to crave shallowness and lift up lives of mediocrity as exemplars to follow. It seems to me that it must also be very very hard to be a top sportsperson, a top music star, businessperson, politician etc and so on without also losing something of one's humanity in the single-minded pursuit of pleasure.
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arse
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
In my experience of working with women who have been involved in sex work I have never met a single one who ever for one moment went into because they enjoyed it.
Every single one has an awful history of childhood neglect, exploitation, drug abuse and subsequently addiction after which they were forced to work for drugs by pimps and dealers.
At least in this country it is now legal (to work from a brothel not strictly to street sex work) so the women have some recourse to legal and police protection.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
On top of all the other disadvantages and unpleasantness of the work, there are a few serial killers who specialize in prostitutes.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
...At least in this country it is now legal (to work from a brothel not strictly to street sex work) so the women have some recourse to legal and police protection.
Yes, they do in UK but then you hear how the police in general [individual officers excepted] and other people who should know better talk about them and you wonder what the point is!
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Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Bax
Shipmate
# 16572
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Posted
Unlike for a lot of morality issues discussed on the internet, we have a direct quote straight from the lips of Our Lord to guide us in this debate.
It may come as a surprise.
"Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you" (Matt 21:31)
Read the whole chapter to get context of this statement.
Posts: 108 | Registered: Aug 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bax:
Unlike for a lot of morality issues discussed on the internet, we have a direct quote straight from the lips of Our Lord to guide us in this debate.
It may come as a surprise.
"Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you" (Matt 21:31)
Read the whole chapter to get context of this statement.
The thing is, they were - at Jesus time - the most despised of people. That is the danger of taking a word directly from the Bible and assuming that we can apply directly.
Today you might use bankers and politicians. Not because they are any worse than others, but because they are considered - to those listening - as the most unholy and morally degenerate.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I walk every day in green spaces because I really like it. My Stendhal's kicks in if I'm lucky, overwhelmed by a big often incredibly sensual tree or tiny flowers on a shrub I've assumed to be holly for years from 10m away and it's NOT! Having only discovered holly flowers in January. Living in those moments. How is that problematic?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My question would be 'where is the hurt/harm?' Any activity which hurts nobody and harms nothing/no-one is fine, is it not?
Depends on your definition of "harm" and "hurt," I guess.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
On top of all the other disadvantages and unpleasantness of the work, there are a few serial killers who specialize in prostitutes.
Like coal mining or Trench warfare, there is no doubt sex work is dangerous, demeaning and dirty. And likewise with these 'professions' those higher up the tree usually had better time of it.
Reading above comments, and generally speaking, ISTM poverty, abuse and trauma are the enemy with sex work being one of it's symptoms.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Every single one has an awful history of childhood neglect, exploitation, drug abuse and subsequently addiction after which they were forced to work for drugs by pimps and dealers.
This is what I'd expect to be true but based on guesswork rather than any experience. However is it possible that the group of sex workers that you meet is a function of your work? So there could be another group out there without such marked problems who don't come into contact with you?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I walk every day in green spaces because I really like it. My Stendhal's kicks in if I'm lucky, overwhelmed by a big often incredibly sensual tree or tiny flowers on a shrub I've assumed to be holly for years from 10m away and it's NOT! Having only discovered holly flowers in January. Living in those moments. How is that problematic?
If you are asking me.. as I made fairly clear before, there is nothing problematic about experiencing moments of pleasure. The issue, as far as I'm concerned, is when one repeatedly seeks to live in those moments. I dare say that if one sought the experience of being in the presence of aromatic trees to the extent that you thought/planned about it all the time, then that also would be pretty damaging. As with almost everything else.
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arse
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Interestingly New York Magazine has a cover story this issue, Is Prostitution Just Another Job? I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but here's a link I hope works:
Link here
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Oh believe me, I'm very much missing the Euonymous europaeus and Hippophae rhamnoides I missed out on inspecting today. And I'm hugely exercised by the shrub to the left of the brick wall on the left of Barley Lane as you turn on to it from Foston Road here.
There is NOTHING like being obsessive about ones pleasures to a dangerous degree, in the face of mundanity and horror.
[ 22. March 2016, 17:07: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
“...the young man who rings the bell at the brothel is unconsciously looking for God.” The World, The Flesh, and Father Smith by Bruce Marshall (1945) (p. 108)
NOT GKC
The poor woman is looking for the rent.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Does no harm? I guess if the prostitute makes the John promise that he is not married, his wife or girlfriend can't possibly find out and be hurt, they will receive just as much affection as if he hadn't visited the prostitute and the prostitute is 100% sure that she isn't carrying a disease from her encounter an hour ago -- then maybe it won't do him any harm.
For her the immediate harm is in the reinforcement of her belief (common to most prostitutes because of the abuse they suffered as children) that her only value is in her ability to do sex. That plus the already mentioned huge increase of chance for drug addiction or violent death.
Jesus famously forgave the woman with five husbands and although we don't know for sure if Mary Magdalene was a prostitute we do know she had led a "sinful," life and was also forgiven by him. I'm sure she understood, just as Jesus told the other woman to "go and sin no more," that she was not expected to keep it up. The big story was that Jesus forgave these women and they were exceedingly grateful for that. It amazes me how many people seem to think that the Magdalene story tells us that prostitution is okay.
Like anything Jesus considered sinful, it wasn't because he didn't want us to have any fun, it was because he didn't want us to hurt ourselves.
After the movie, "Pretty Woman," came out the LA police had a big problem with the influx of young women from all over the country who thought the life of a hooker was a short cut to meeting a prince, or Richard Gere, and living happily ever after. It's sad how movies and TV and the new PC term "sex worker," have tried to make stripping, porn and prostitution seem glamourous and free when it's actually depressing, demoralizing and dangerous.
"Breaking Bad's" regular prostitute shows us a typical day in the life: "Windy" Richard Gere nowhere in sight.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Jesus famously forgave the woman with five husbands and although we don't know for sure if Mary Magdalene was a prostitute we do know she had led a "sinful," life and was also forgiven by him. I'm sure she understood, just as Jesus told the other woman to "go and sin no more," that she was not expected to keep it up. The big story was that Jesus forgave these women and they were exceedingly grateful for that. It amazes me how many people seem to think that the Magdalene story tells us that prostitution is okay.
Actually, nobody has argued that there is not a seedy side to the Sex Worker business. There is, and it is dangerous, unpleasant and abusive. Most people who get into that side are exactly who you have described, and they can be freed from it.
Jesus forgave people, and in one case gave the clear injunction to sin no more. But he never specified or identified what their sins were. We make assumptions. I am challenging these assumptions.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
In challenging those assumptions what I remain unclear about is how common the "well adjusted sex worker" is. Are we talking about a few well payed individuals working a particular crowd, or are brothels in countries where sex work is less criminalized a place where this can happen.
It seems to me that a fair number of people who work with sex workers on a regular basis report that very few are well adjusted, and that abuse, mental health problems and marginalization is very much the norm, even when considered brothels in decriminalized settings.
But I don't have direct experience so can't be authoritative.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
VERY well said Twilight. Most.
Judgement without condemnation.
I've never gotten over a friend describing sitting in a rough pub 'South of the Bridges' in Leamington, 40 years ago, where a no longer young, rare black woman sat back drinking alone in a print dress, legs crossed, with a sign on the bottom of her elevated shoe saying '10 bob the lot'. 50p, a dollar.
Comi-TRAGIC.
I very much doubt that she was ever discipled from that. The only deliverance being old age and death.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I think that's a very romanticised version of historical sex work. For most sex workers it would have been a very dangerous and precarious lifestyle. Life-threatening STIs, backyard abortions, physical violence and ostracism from wider society would have been the lot of 99% of sex workers. To equate a courtesan with the average sex worker is to equate the life of a fishwife with that of a minor royal.
Yes, I agree, and should have made it clearer that I was only pointing out the top end of the scale. However there have always been an element that fell on their feet and ended up as mistresses or kept women and who didn't, on the whole, do too badly. That is, as you say, far removed from the image of someone who may even be homeless resorting to selling herself as a way of getting enough money for the night shelter, and I still think that if a woman was visibly seen to be affluent and leading a comfortable lifestyle from this kind of work she would have attracted not just scorn but also some kind of envy.
And of course she would probably have wanted legitimacy and respectability and the all-important ring on the finger.
Incidentally, this thread has so far assumed that sex workers are female, but there are male ones as well.
[ 23. March 2016, 07:20: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Jesus famously forgave the woman with five husbands and although we don't know for sure if Mary Magdalene was a prostitute we do know she had led a "sinful," life and was also forgiven by him. I'm sure she understood, just as Jesus told the other woman to "go and sin no more," that she was not expected to keep it up. The big story was that Jesus forgave these women and they were exceedingly grateful for that. It amazes me how many people seem to think that the Magdalene story tells us that prostitution is okay.
Like anything Jesus considered sinful, it wasn't because he didn't want us to have any fun, it was because he didn't want us to hurt ourselves.
Where does the bible say Mary Magdalene led a sinful life? It says that she had been healed and that seven demons came out of her in Luke 8:3 but I can't recall her being specified as a sinner, anymore than any of the other NT followers of Jesus.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
In challenging those assumptions what I remain unclear about is how common the "well adjusted sex worker" is. Are we talking about a few well payed individuals working a particular crowd, or are brothels in countries where sex work is less criminalized a place where this can happen.
ISTM from articles like the one posted above that the happy sex workers are the ones charging hundreds of dollars and hour and thousands of dollars a night. Based on nothing more than It Stands To Reason, I doubt many clients are able and willing to pay those prices, and consequently I imagine their share of the market is small.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
One of my thesis-churning-out acquaintances sent me a review copy of her mss on the trade in Victorian Canada. What she found interesting is that there was a cohort of working girls who got on the game to bankroll their move to western Canada, where they would marry a farmer or businessman in those regions awfully short of women, founding thereby respectable prairie dynasties. Many of them had initially immigrated as domestic workers, either from the British Isles or the backwoods of eastern Ontario and the Atlantic provinces, and had entered the trade either through work difficulties (the over-attentive master of the household was staple of popular song) or preferring a more interesting life, or having to provide for a child or sister.
She told me that contemporary Ottawa prostitutes (the things one learns at dinner parties!) are great users of the internet, which provides them with a way of checking up on prospective clients and administering their businesses. My researcher informed me that the general conversation of escorts seemed to focus on tracking expenses for the taxman. As well, she knew of a few students (both men and women) who subsidize their studies through the sideline facilitated by their efforts. Generally, this was not known by their fellow students but she thought there was likely more acceptance at the city's other (largely francophone) university.
This is, of course, far away from the world of the street prostitute, who tend to be more involved in the world of drugs. I came to be aware that one of my former colleagues had been a cocaine-user in her teenage years and had financed her habit thus-- she was fortunate in that a friend brought her into rehab, and now she plies another profession in the financial circles of the bureaucracy, and volunteers with a women's support group for those trying to leave the business. And as referenced in my report of Saint Roch's in Québec City, they can be found among our fellow worshippers.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Jesus famously forgave the woman with five husbands and although we don't know for sure if Mary Magdalene was a prostitute we do know she had led a "sinful," life and was also forgiven by him. I'm sure she understood, just as Jesus told the other woman to "go and sin no more," that she was not expected to keep it up. The big story was that Jesus forgave these women and they were exceedingly grateful for that. It amazes me how many people seem to think that the Magdalene story tells us that prostitution is okay.
Like anything Jesus considered sinful, it wasn't because he didn't want us to have any fun, it was because he didn't want us to hurt ourselves.
Where does the bible say Mary Magdalene led a sinful life? It says that she had been healed and that seven demons came out of her in Luke 8:3 but I can't recall her being specified as a sinner, anymore than any of the other NT followers of Jesus.
You've got me there, Evangeline. I was actually arguing the common assumption that she was a prostitute ( someone mentioned her above) because I was sure the Bible didn't say that -- so I thought the misunderstanding probably came from the Bible saying she had been sinful, but I think now you're right and I've confused her with someone else -- the woman who washed his feet? The one with the perfumed oil for his head?
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
The most recent is BBC3 sex in strange places
In which the most sensationalist stories are highlighted (presumably on the same basis that the daily mail is full of swimsuit models at the same time as decrying moral decline) whilst the presenter wanders around playing the naive idiot abroad.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Jesus famously forgave the woman with five husbands and although we don't know for sure if Mary Magdalene was a prostitute we do know she had led a "sinful," life and was also forgiven by him. I'm sure she understood, just as Jesus told the other woman to "go and sin no more," that she was not expected to keep it up. The big story was that Jesus forgave these women and they were exceedingly grateful for that. It amazes me how many people seem to think that the Magdalene story tells us that prostitution is okay.
Like anything Jesus considered sinful, it wasn't because he didn't want us to have any fun, it was because he didn't want us to hurt ourselves.
Where does the bible say Mary Magdalene led a sinful life? It says that she had been healed and that seven demons came out of her in Luke 8:3 but I can't recall her being specified as a sinner, anymore than any of the other NT followers of Jesus.
You've got me there, Evangeline. I was actually arguing the common assumption that she was a prostitute ( someone mentioned her above) because I was sure the Bible didn't say that -- so I thought the misunderstanding probably came from the Bible saying she had been sinful, but I think now you're right and I've confused her with someone else -- the woman who washed his feet? The one with the perfumed oil for his head?
It was a Pope who conflated Mary Magdalene with another Mary who led a sinful life and thus misrepresented the first witness of the resurrection, so you can be forgiven ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Whilst we're at it, you seem to have conflated another story as well....
It was the woman caught in adultery who was told to "go and sin no more" John 7:53., The woman with 5 husbands aka the Samaritan woman at the well John 4 was the first evangelist and Christ neither declared his forgiveness nor told her to sin no more. In fact as a woman in that day and age I think to tell her to leave the one she was with now would have sentenced her to starvation. Jesus' startling acceptance of this woman-shows that the kingdom is for all. I don't believe the Samaritan woman at he well was a prostitute just a victim of the patriarchal society of the day, technically an adulteress but possibly a victim of divorce laws and general lack of opportunities for woman to live without the protection of a male.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Cherubim
Apprentice
# 18514
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Posted
For as long as men and women voluntarily make an informed choice about how they use their bodies in exchange for reward, I don't think it is the business of anyone here to interfere. Having said that, I would see a greater moral conflict with homosexuality, but overall is it better for men and women exchange sex for reward than being unable to cope with a life without sex that explodes into assault? Prostitution can act as a valve for the frustrated, something for which the church has to take responsibility for those who exploded in their ranks.
Posts: 10 | From: Charlton | Registered: Nov 2015
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Cherubim
Apprentice
# 18514
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Posted
For as long as men and women voluntarily make an informed choice about how they use their bodies in exchange for reward, I don't think it is the business of anyone here to interfere. Having said that, I would see a greater moral conflict with homosexuality, but overall is it better for men and women exchange sex for reward than being unable to cope with a life without sex that explodes into assault? Prostitution can act as a valve for the frustrated, something for which the church has to take responsibility for those who exploded in their ranks.
The church has long had an uneasy relationship with sex, that confounds not only reason but biology. Women have a clitoris, which serves no other function than to serve as a conduit for orgasm. Why would God create the clitoris if He didn't want it used, (nuns and virgins please note). If people aren't to get an orgasm through prostitution then what should they do? Wank? The church has long had a problem with wanking. I really think the church is inadequate and ill-skilled to decide upon matters of sex and should step back from the whole argument,
Posts: 10 | From: Charlton | Registered: Nov 2015
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Does no harm? I guess if the prostitute makes the John promise that he is not married, his wife or girlfriend can't possibly find out and be hurt, they will receive just as much affection as if he hadn't visited the prostitute and the prostitute is 100% sure that she isn't carrying a disease from her encounter an hour ago -- then maybe it won't do him any harm.
For her the immediate harm is in the reinforcement of her belief (common to most prostitutes because of the abuse they suffered as children) that her only value is in her ability to do sex. That plus the already mentioned huge increase of chance for drug addiction or violent death.
Jesus famously forgave the woman with five husbands and although we don't know for sure if Mary Magdalene was a prostitute we do know she had led a "sinful," life and was also forgiven by him. I'm sure she understood, just as Jesus told the other woman to "go and sin no more," that she was not expected to keep it up. The big story was that Jesus forgave these women and they were exceedingly grateful for that. It amazes me how many people seem to think that the Magdalene story tells us that prostitution is okay.
Like anything Jesus considered sinful, it wasn't because he didn't want us to have any fun, it was because he didn't want us to hurt ourselves.
After the movie, "Pretty Woman," came out the LA police had a big problem with the influx of young women from all over the country who thought the life of a hooker was a short cut to meeting a prince, or Richard Gere, and living happily ever after. It's sad how movies and TV and the new PC term "sex worker," have tried to make stripping, porn and prostitution seem glamourous and free when it's actually depressing, demoralizing and dangerous.
"Breaking Bad's" regular prostitute shows us a typical day in the life: "Windy" Richard Gere nowhere in sight.
This.
And consider that prostitutes are part of someone's family. Does anyone want their mother, sister, brother, father, children to be a prostitute?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Cherubim: quote:
Having said that, I would see a greater moral conflict with homosexuality (!?-L*R), but overall is it better for men and women exchange sex for reward than being unable to cope with a life without sex that explodes into assault? Prostitution can act as a valve for the frustrated, something for which the church has to take responsibility for those who exploded in their ranks.
I've been celibate for quite a few years. I hope someone tugs my coat to warn me before I explode.
[ 30. March 2016, 02:38: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cherubim:
For as long as men and women voluntarily make an informed choice about how they use their bodies in exchange for reward, I don't think it is the business of anyone here to interfere.
The question is whether "sex work" is a morally licit activity for a Christian - not whether one should "interfere" with anyone else.
quote:
overall is it better for men and women exchange sex for reward than being unable to cope with a life without sex that explodes into assault?
Is it better to have sex with a prostitute than to rape someone? Sure - but that doesn't necessarily make prostitution OK. The lesser of two evils is still evil.
(I'm assuming here you're imagining prostitution as an outlet for the client, rather as a means for the sex-starved prostitute to access sex.)
quote:
If people aren't to get an orgasm through prostitution then what should they do? Wank? The church has long had a problem with wanking.
Your argument seems to be "women have clitorides, therefore everyone should have lots of orgasms on a regular basis, therefore they should hire prostitutes because otherwise they might masturbate." That seems terribly confused to me.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'd be interested in y'all's take on this story on this topic.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It seems to me that a fair number of people who work with sex workers on a regular basis report that very few are well adjusted, and that abuse, mental health problems and marginalization is very much the norm, even when considered brothels in decriminalized settings.
You will probably find that a fair number of people who work with people on a regular basis will report that very few are well adjusted and that abuse and mental health problems are the norm, because, well, they are, unfortunately.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The contention of many working with sex workers is that the prevalence of abuse and mental health issues is higher and more severe than in the general population. One can question cause and effect, biased reporting and other issues of course, but I don't think it is possible to write off what those working with sex workers report as simply normal human experience.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'd be interested in y'all's take on this story on this topic.
Horrific story, but eye-opening. toward the end of her story she says: quote:
The problem is that people see trafficked women as prostitutes, and they see prostitutes not as victims, but criminals.
That rings so true to me. There may be the occasional high priced "mistress to the one-percent," who enjoys her work, but I doubt that any woman on earth enjoys having sex with 20 men a night. Yet, I'll bet the men who used these women told themselves that they liked it and found it an easy way to earn a living. Whether forced at gun point like the women in the story or brought low by incestuous family members or addiction to drugs, they are almost every single one a victim.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'd be interested in y'all's take on this story on this topic.
It shows how closed minded some people are to it, especially the authorities where she should have been given a safe haven and a listening ear, as well as the action she called for to release others and arrest the perpetrators.
The urban myth of most male and female prostitutes having a great time enjoying sex and getting paid for it as well continues to provide an excuse for those who use and abuse them.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I read some entries above. And the story link.
I wonder how the church would regard the choice between forcing sex on a trafficked woman or masturbating. How anyone normal would regard that as a choice, anyway.
There is a part of me that wants to burst into wholly inappropriate language about men who regard their need for "relief" (is that appropriate enough?) as so necessary that they want to be in a queue to take part in an emotionless action that is basically equivalent to using a human being as a toilet.
There was a TV programme I didn't watch but heard, unfortunately, discussed, about men who waited outside an abattoir for the calves... I thought that was pretty disgusting. But it's almost harmless compared with the users of prostitutes in slavery.
Are these creatures actually human themselves?
[ 30. March 2016, 12:32: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'd be interested in y'all's take on this story on this topic.
It shows how closed minded some people are to it, especially the authorities where she should have been given a safe haven and a listening ear, as well as the action she called for to release others and arrest the perpetrators.
I have to confess to a certain degree of scepticism with respect to some parts of the story.
I don't doubt the general miserable conditions of prostitution and trafficked individuals, but her story sounds embroidered to me.
From the article you'll note that she gets citizenship in return for her testimony. I'm fairly sure that in return for citizenship, some prostitutes will tell investigators what they want to hear and not necessarily the truth, or name the right names. I'm not saying she did that, but I am pointing out yet another of the less-remarked-on twists and turns of this issue.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cherubim:
...but overall is it better for men and women exchange sex for reward than being unable to cope with a life without sex that explodes into assault?
Dangerous nonsense. Lack of sex is not an excuse for violence.
Posts: 3690 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
The most recent is BBC3 sex in strange places
In which the most sensationalist stories are highlighted (presumably on the same basis that the daily mail is full of swimsuit models at the same time as decrying moral decline) whilst the presenter wanders around playing the naive idiot abroad.
Which is basically what BBC3 did with any half-serious subject. I'm glad its gone.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm inclined to think that if someone is in such a state that the lack of a sexual outlet causes them to commit violent assault, then they are in need of much more help than can be administered by a prostitute. Preferably in a secure environment.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I would imagine that sort of person is exactly why sex workers are in such danger. Would they assault the sex worker if the sex wasn't good enough? Or if the fee was too high? Or on another occasion simply because that is part of the desired experience for them?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I would imagine that sort of person is exactly why sex workers are in such danger. Would they assault the sex worker if the sex wasn't good enough? Or if the fee was too high? Or on another occasion simply because that is part of the desired experience for them?
Might the rationale go like this: "I paid for the use of this body, and I am going to f*** it any way I want". Sort of like the dehumanizing of people that pornography provides. Except that there is a human there, but differentially this prostitute human pretends to enjoy the interaction (or not). I think this dehumanizing aspect is the wrong and problematic part. It isn't "loving others as I have loved you", because it is dehumanising, even if the prostitute consents because they've agreed to rental of their body parts.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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