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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sex workers
chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Might the rationale go like this: "I paid for the use of this body, and I am going to f*** it any way I want".

Removing sex from the equation, how different is this to a whole bunch of exploitative jobs?
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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Might the rationale go like this: "I paid for the use of this body, and I am going to f*** it any way I want".

Removing sex from the equation, how different is this to a whole bunch of exploitative jobs?
Having someone put a part of their body into your's is different than several exploitive jobs I can thing: poor waged retail workers, berry pickers, repetitive factory workers. While there is risk of injury and poverty, none of these involve some direct intimate human to human contact.

Now, if we think of people from, say from Myanmar or Thailand who are enslaved on Indonesian fishing boats (check what company packs your tuna), we might consider this to be more parallel. And I think it is in regard to some aspects of exploitiveness, but it still isn't personal in the same way as sex is. In the same way that law enforcement is similar in some ways to soldiering, but also different.

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Paul.
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I was listening to a podcast earlier about paid surrogates in third world countries. It made me think of this thread the way they were treated.

But that's about the only other 'job' that comes close I think.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Might the rationale go like this: "I paid for the use of this body, and I am going to f*** it any way I want".

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Removing sex from the equation, how different is this to a whole bunch of exploitative jobs?

It's more exploitative than most.

One can minimize anything by putting it in a class of things that are similar in quality but not in quantity.

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beatmenace
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
I was listening to a podcast earlier about paid surrogates in third world countries. It made me think of this thread the way they were treated.

But that's about the only other 'job' that comes close I think.

Surrogacy seems to have been a more accepted practice by the more Conservative end of Christianity than you might think.

http://www.modernfamilysurrogacy.com/page/christian_surrogacy

I suppose the logic being that if it was good enough for Abraham..........

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Paul.
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It's not so much whether surrogacy per se is seen to be wrong, it's how it plays out in practice, often exploiting poor women with few options. It was that that made me think of it.
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Og: Thread Killer
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This whole discussion can not be hived off from the thinking behind why Johns become Johns.

I remember a number of media stories from the last 2 decades about those who end up at "John school", the "scared straight" attempt to educate Johns about why buying sex was bad. The success was mixed.

Some of the men just didn't understand what the issue was. They were far away from home and wanted something that somebody was willing to take for pay. The argument was that transaction was better then abstinence and far more acceptable to them culturally then porn/masturbation.

Harm reduction is of primary importance in a world where that world view exists.

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Penny S
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So why is using a person in an impersonal way that almost certainly does not pleasure that person more acceptable than self-pleasuring? Because the culture says that the latter is wronger than a wrong thing?
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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Removing sex from the equation, how different is this to a whole bunch of exploitative jobs?

It's more exploitative than most..


We've been here many times over the matter of who exploiting who where sex work is concerned. I'm not talking pimps exploiting unwilling sex workers, neither clouding the argument over what sex workers do with there earnings, (drugs, drink, feeding kids, putting an extension on the house or whatever). This still isn't the essential moral point.

One person is prepared to do something for money another person is prepared to pay that money--- a transaction made between two people. Who am I to morally judge that situation? Besides which, even if I did want to make a judgement it certainly wouldn't be based on anything the church has got to say about it. Anyone here watched The Borgias ?

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Removing sex from the equation, how different is this to a whole bunch of exploitative jobs?

It's more exploitative than most..


Well at the extremes of treating people as things I think we can all agree that such things are exploitative.

[Note; but how much more uniquely so than (to pick a few examples of things that people here are likely to be consumers of); the migrant builders crammed into 20 foot shipping containers, who have their passports stolen and are forced to work on the skyscrapers of the Gulf with inadequate safety equipment, or the slaves on the cocoa plantations of Ghana who are worked till they drop, or those forced to work in the diamond mines in west africa (whose tormentors found that the best way of motivating their workers was to threaten to amputate their children's limbs). ALL of these things to my mind seem to be driven by the attitude of treating people as things or (to misquote the OP) "I have paid for this person and I can do what the f**k i want with them"]

The thing is is that prostitution exists on a continuum. Not every prostitute is the mistress of a multi national millionaire businessmen, equally - at least in the west - the best data we have is that the sorts of cases highlighted in that article are rare - yes unfortunate, but very rare.

The groups that work most with sex workers attest to this numerous times. It's also attested to in the aftermaths of the various high profile raids that sweep big cities, usually the initial headlines are of hundreds of prostitutes being detained due to trafficking, actual charges are vanishingly rare. A lot of the most egregious cases occur within ghettoised minority groups. Reports like that by Amnesty were driven by their finding that a large number of sex workers were simply trying to make a modest living - rather than drag addled addicts sleeping with 20 men a night in order to make their next fix. [See also Eutychus' original post - his experience seems to be one reflected by a large number of the organisations that work in this area]

Even if you believe that this is not an ideal state of affairs, the question that arises is 'what next ?'. The Swedish model ? The biggest effect of criminalising either side, will be to drive the whole thing underground, where it is less easy to keep an eye on. The day after her johns are criminalised, what is the average prostitute actually supposed to do?

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Brenda Clough
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The reason sex for money is worse could be because it is actually designed by God as a loving affirmation between two people. It might be therefore more on a continuum with restaurants (the exchange of food is also an expression of affirmation between two people) and handshakes. Which mostly do not involve money or profit.

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Og: Thread Killer
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
So why is using a person in an impersonal way that almost certainly does not pleasure that person more acceptable than self-pleasuring? Because the culture says that the latter is wronger than a wrong thing?

I don't like the idea either but that's how some people think.

That having been said, there's a lot of pejorative assumptions in those two sentences.

"using"
"impersonal"
"almost certainly does not"

I wouldn't assume that unless I talked to Johns. I havn't. Anybody seen any research on how Johns think of their "escorts"?

Likewise, any actual research on what sex workers think of all this? I see a lot of discussion in here that assumes a lot of stuff and one thing I now from my social worker days, never assume how and what people think - ask them.


While the transaction is happening, reduce harm.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
While the transaction is happening, reduce harm.

This much, I agree with. The bleary-eyed glorification of sex work I've seen on this thread, not so much.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This much, I agree with. The bleary-eyed glorification of sex work I've seen on this thread, not so much.

Indeed. I recalled the parody of the 1970s book "The Joy of Sex", The Job of Sex: A Workingman's Guide to Productive Lovemaking.

Perhaps we can farm out this type of work to robots in the future. [Help]

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Nicolemr
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quote:
Likewise, any actual research on what sex workers think of all this? I see a lot of discussion in here that assumes a lot of stuff and one thing I now from my social worker days, never assume how and what people think - ask them.
The article from New York Magazine that I linked to earlier on the thread had some of this in it.

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Penny S
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On behalf of the large number of people called John who are not now, and never have been, users of prostitutes, can we have another word for the latter, please?

And Og, I was responding to your own comment about the ideas of the users, which apparently referred to interviews with them. And didn't seem to acknowledge that what they thought of the women was relevant.

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Gramps49
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After skimming through three pages of this discussion, I am struck at how little is said about how Jesus approached the subject.

Is being a sex worker compatible with Christianity?

Well, Jesus was constantly being accused of eating with prostitutes.

There is only one instance where we are told that he told a woman who was about to be stoned (probably because she had been charging too high of a price for her services--either that or because she knew too much about the men in the village) to go and sin no more.

No other indication that he asked other prostitutes to reform their ways.

Thing of it is, back in his day, if a woman lost her husband, or the husband divorced her, there was very little recourse for survival other than prostituting oneself.

Now I have in interesting proposition: there were a number of very wealthy women--Mary Magdalene being one of them--who may have taken in some of these "soiled" women and taught them a trade or other ways to make a living--but this would be arguing from silence.

No, Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute. We do know she was wealthy but that was because she shrewd business woman. I am going to comment more on this in Kerygmania.

Point is I think you can name nearly every profession and ask if what is being done in that profession is compatible with Christianity. But Jesus never demands anyone lives up to his standards he just accepts them for who they were. Okay, he did seem to have problems with religious leaders but that was because of their hypocritical lifestyle.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

I wouldn't assume that unless I talked to Johns. I havn't. Anybody seen any research on how Johns think of their "escorts"?

They was a T.V programme a while back about UK males who purchased to services of female sex workers. It was quite informative, most of those interviewed seemed perfectly happy with what they were about.

As one gentleman pointed out. Which is the most immoral?
Going to a club or pub and looking for a female to ply with booze, bullshit etc. solely for the purpose of coaxing her into the bedroom. Or simply saying to someone willing to sell the same-- "here's the payment".

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mdijon
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But those aren't the only choices.

There are cups of tea that could be drunk, films that could be watched, relationships that could be developed, licit and illicit substances that could be abused with or without company and many other options.

No-one is forced to adopt a method of exploiting another human being for sex.

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Paul.
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I wouldn't assume that unless I talked to Johns. I havn't. Anybody seen any research on how Johns think of their "escorts"?



Not research. Anecdotally the handful of guys I know who have talked to me about this haven't talked much about the women. They were regretful about their own actions but usually because of the effect on their own lives. One guy talks about it as if it were a status symbol, the ability to buy sex usually gets mentioned in the same breath as using drugs and driving flashy cars. All things he now puts into a category that can't make you happy.

quote:
Likewise, any actual research on what sex workers think of all this? I see a lot of discussion in here that assumes a lot of stuff and one thing I now from my social worker days, never assume how and what people think - ask them.


There's plenty of bloggers who are sex workers if you look around a little. The ones I've read are pro decriminalisation and activists for SW's rights. Which I guess means in terms of 'research' they're biased as they're blogging because they're activists, arguably the (hypothetical) ones happy with the status quo have no need to write about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Well, Jesus was constantly being accused of eating with prostitutes.



He was, and he did. Doesn't tell us he approved of what they did, just tells us he was willing to be with them anyway.

quote:
There is only one instance where we are told that he told a woman who was about to be stoned (probably because she had been charging too high of a price for her services--either that or because she knew too much about the men in the village) to go and sin no more.


We're not told she was a prostitute, just that she was "caught in the act of adultery".


quote:
But Jesus never demands anyone lives up to his standards he just accepts them for who they were. Okay, he did seem to have problems with religious leaders but that was because of their hypocritical lifestyle.
"Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48.

Lest I be accused of 'proof-texting' this is one of many occasions where Jesus sets a high standard for his followers. Whenever he references the OT law he always raises the bar. I'm amazed anyone can read the gospels and still think he never asks us to live up to his standards. He does. He knows we'll fail and loves and restores us, but he never lowers the standard for us.

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:


Perhaps we can farm out this type of work to robots in the future. [Help]

Why not? If anyone considers it demeaning to use a sex doll or robot but not to use a prostitute for sex, why might that be?

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
After skimming through three pages of this discussion, I am struck at how little is said about how Jesus approached the subject.

Is being a sex worker compatible with Christianity?

Well, Jesus was constantly being accused of eating with prostitutes.



Jesus ate with everyone, he ate with tax collectors, he ate with Judas. Clearly "eating with," doesn't mean "approve of everything they do," to Jesus.

quote:
There is only one instance where we are told that he told a woman who was about to be stoned (probably because she had been charging too high of a price for her services--either that or because she knew too much about the men in the village) to go and sin no more.

Leaving aside your imagination about why she was being stoned -- Jesus only turned over the tables of the merchants in the temple one time. How many repetitions of any one thing do you need to get his message?

quote:

Thing of it is, back in his day, if a woman lost her husband, or the husband divorced her, there was very little recourse for survival other than prostituting oneself.


This is why Jesus keeps exhorting us to help the widows and orphans, he didn't expect them to resort to immoral activity, he expected the rest of us to take care of them. I'm sure, back in his day, many thieves were just trying to survive. The commandment remains, that we should not steal. Jesus said that he did not come to change the law.

quote:
Now I have in interesting proposition: there were a number of very wealthy women--Mary Magdalene being one of them--who may have taken in some of these "soiled" women and taught them a trade or other ways to make a living--but this would be arguing from silence.


Yes, that's possible, but if this is part of your argument that Jesus thought prostitution was okay then why would they need to be taught a new trade?

quote:
Point is I think you can name nearly every profession and ask if what is being done in that profession is compatible with Christianity. But Jesus never demands anyone lives up to his standards he just accepts them for who they were. Okay, he did seem to have problems with religious leaders but that was because of their hypocritical lifestyle.

I do think we need to ask if our profession, what ever it is, is compatible with the Christian lifestyle. Just because Jesus forgives us when we fail to live up to high standards doesn't mean we should set out deliberately to fail. Should we sell real estate and lie to our buyers about the structural faults of the house? Should we promise to fix someone's fence, take some of the money up front, then fail to complete the job? Should we sell faulty cribs to parents? Should we cheat on our taxes? I always worked in banks and I was uncomfortably aware of how Jesus felt about money lenders. I knew I would not be able to allow myself to work at the sort of "Title Loan," business that took your car if you failed to pay back or any business who's interest rates bordered on usury. Just thinking of myself I know Jesus would not "just accept," the fact that I'm divorced or my anger issues. I believe his standards for us are very exacting.
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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The biggest effect of criminalising either side, will be to drive the whole thing underground, where it is less easy to keep an eye on. The day after her johns are criminalised, what is the average prostitute actually supposed to do?

What is this "keep an eye on," and what good does it really do?

As for the day after her clients are criminalized -- a half-way house would be great or a temporary shelter. Rehab for addicts would also be very good. She should be told where to go to apply for welfare and subsidized housing. She should be helped to find work. Even during times of high unemployment, there are usually lots of low-level jobs in fast food and hotel cleaning. If none of this help is available I still think she may be better off in the long run. If she stays in prostitution and manages to stay alive for ten years, her age will probably make her unable to find much work. Those ten years could have been spent working her way up in a legal occupation.

------------------[The rest is "in general" and not directed at [Chris]

Prostitution is absolutely not the same thing as a date that ends in sex. Quite possibly the man is wining and dining the woman in the hope of ending the evening with sex, but at least he has had a few hours to get to know her, the chance of falling in love, possibly sharing a life together is there. She can say no at any time and is treated with dignity, we hope. It's a big difference.

This sort of subject always seems to come with an undertone that those who are against sex work are being judgmental. Someone always asks, "Who are we to judge them?" Well no one is judging anyone here. There is no individual whom we are pointing at and no one has suggested anyone involved in sex work is going to burn in hell so just drop that self-satisfied judging of us.

We are asking the question of whether or not this is a desirable occupation for any woman and particularly for one who is trying to live a Christian life. Ask yourself if you would want to do it? Ask if you would want your daughter or sister to live this life?

Think for one minute about protecting these women instead of looking around for someone who you might think is judging them. Believe me, being "judged," by some anonymous, stereotypical church lady is the very least of their problems. Being beaten to death by their next trick -- that's their problem.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

What is this "keep an eye on," and what good does it really do?

I have no idea where you are, but at least in the UK the local police and health services generally know where all the brothels and make regular and discreet visits and occasionally information flows both ways.

quote:
She should be told where to go to apply for welfare and subsidized housing. She should be helped to find work.
A large number of them are also working other jobs.
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Gee D
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Chris Stiles, some time ago, you said that you had no idea where I lived; now you say the same to Twilight. If you look at the bottom line of a post, you can often see a location for the poster. Mine gives suburb, state and country; Twilight gives Ohio; and I see that you are in Berkshire - I assume that's the one in the UK rather than in Massachusetts.

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mdijon
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The debate seems quite polarizing in France where paying for sex has just been made illegal. There seem to be quite different approaches within Europe with Sweden, Norway and Iceland preceding France in making sex work illegal, but Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands having legal brothels.

[ 09. April 2016, 11:58: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Doc Tor
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Well, that's the EU for you. You have to have the same rules and regulations in each member state. Loss of sovereignty, I tell you...

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, that's the EU for you. You have to have the same rules and regulations in each member state. Loss of sovereignty, I tell you...

... yes the day is soon coming where all European Johns and Janes will be paying for their sex work in Euros-- Disgraceful!

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If anyone considers it demeaning to use a sex doll or robot but not to use a prostitute for sex, why might that be?

Could it be something to do with the fact that you don't get to strike a deal with a robot? I doubt if the allure in the buying and selling of sexual activity is purely down to the sex itself.

An interesting point in the link about the criminalisation of prostitution in France, (a place many associate with the romanticized Parisian brothel), is that the penalty will be for purchaser not the vendor of sex acts.
Apparently this model has been tried in Sweden since 1999 and elsewhere, so presumably there is some mileage in it.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Alex Cockell

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Tuppy Owens, who set up Outsiders, along with many sex workers, are furious at the French ban - as it has the unintended consequences of cutting off sexual contact from the people lowest down the sociosexual totem pole... some of the most disabled and isolated folks...
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'd be interested in y'all's take on this story on this topic.

It shows how closed minded some people are to it, especially the authorities where she should have been given a safe haven and a listening ear, as well as the action she called for to release others and arrest the perpetrators.
I have to confess to a certain degree of scepticism with respect to some parts of the story.

I don't doubt the general miserable conditions of prostitution and trafficked individuals, but her story sounds embroidered to me.

From the article you'll note that she gets citizenship in return for her testimony. I'm fairly sure that in return for citizenship, some prostitutes will tell investigators what they want to hear and not necessarily the truth, or name the right names. I'm not saying she did that, but I am pointing out yet another of the less-remarked-on twists and turns of this issue.

IME, this story is much closer to common than the Belle de Jour type accounts. Of course, there will be many in-between as well. But just how much abuse and exploitation is acceptable?
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

While the transaction is happening, reduce harm.

There is a programme in Holbeck, Leeds which attempts to do this. It is controversial and not perfect, but seems to have reduced harm to the people who were going to be engaging in prostitution regardless.

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