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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Be like Jesus
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
As Christians, we are called to be like Jesus. He's certainly an admirable person to imitate. But how much do we actually endeavour to do so?
We go to church faithfully each week. We love to sing hymns and listen to a good sermon. We attend Bible studies, Mothers' Union and prayer groups. We love to socialise with other people from church over a nice cup of tea and a digestive. It's all very nice.
The trouble is, this niceness doesn't seem much like what Jesus went through. Yes I do believe he had a great time with his friends, but he ended up dying for his trouble. He was always challenging those in authority, not condemning them but msking them think. On the other hand, he always had time for people who were on the edges of society - shepherds, Samaritans, children, foreign women, etc.
I too have a problem with this. I've been brought up to be a Christian, but I've also been brought up to be - well, nice. But sometimes I think this niceness is overrrated. It can prevent us from being truly Christian, or evem acting as we would wish, were it not for fear of what others may think.
I suppose you could say I can be a bit of a snob. Which is something Jesus most definitely was not. What I am trying to say is that there are people I know, who I actually care a great deal about, even want to be friends with, who I am afraid to engage further with because they are not from a "nice" background and I think many of my usual (Christian) associates would be rather shocked that I even know them!
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
If the discussion is going to center around "nice" then we should probably establish a meaning for that.
In the United States, or at least within my experience, nice is pretty much synonymous with kind and I don't think anyone can be too kind for Jesus. I'm not sure what nice means where you come from but it sounds different to me. When I say, "What a nice man!" I mean he's kind and gentle. When you say it, it sounds like there's also an element of the upper class that isn't included in my definition. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 01. April 2016, 20:12: Message edited by: Twilight ]
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
In the last couple of years I've started doing volunteer work at my childhood church which is now a mission center to the poor and those in recovery. I've met a lot of not-traditionally-nice people that I've grown to like. Yes, they have rough edges, but they teach me a lot about how humans can survive, thrive, and change under many circumstances. They also show me that we can all fail, and we can also pick ourselves back up with the grace of God. So I try to listen and show kindness because I'm getting a lot from my new friends.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
If we think of Jesus as being Prophet, Priest and King, our individual discipleship would emphasize one of these in following Our Lord.
As Prophet, Jesus spoke truth to power, but also spoke tenderly and ministered compassionately to those in need, so some Christians are called into social justice work, while others are called to pastoral work. Both are following and emulating him, but neither does it both completely.
As Priest, Jesus leads in worshiping and directing all towards God the Father. The priestly ministry of the Church therefore is reflected in Christians involved in ministries of worship, prayer, and hospitality.
As King, Jesus leads his people. The leadership ministry is reflected in Christians called into administrative roles in the Church.
We follow and emulate Jesus in lives of discipleship. How we emulate him differs from each other according to our gifts and talents.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
'Nice' is often used to mean polite rather than kind, smiling pleasantly while keeping one's hands clean, ready to wash up as long as there are rubber gloves and hot water to hand.
A church is sometimes a place where those who try to emulate Jesus are given the judgemental back- biting treatment to such an extent that they may leave with their tail between their legs never to return. A nice social arrangement is not what church is supposed to be.
Unless we're ready to wash everyone's feet, as Jesus did - even those of Judas - avoid judgement, welcome with love, be ready to forgive, etc we are not his disciples.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Working out how to be a good friend to someone of a different culture, how to be a parent, partner, neighbour or colleague, negotiating prejudice, inequality and the shifting ways of the world, is important work, I think. It was Jesus' way with people that most impresses me, his knowledge of them and the way he went to the heart of each encounter.
So I think that good manners, respect, courtesy and a lot of what might be dismissed as niceness or political correctness is important. As long as we can break through convention and be real.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
As the internet meme has it, when considering what would Jesus do, remember that turning over tables and whipping people is a possibility.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Bloody EXCELLENT Jude. What on EARTH, in HEAVEN'S NAME is what we do on Sunday got to do with BEING Jesus? To Himself in ALL others?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Jesus wasn't nice, he was bloody annoying. Yes, killed for his trouble. Christians aren't nice, they are also bloody annoying. And kill others for their trouble. Because they are poor, in the wrong country, have the wrong religious brandname. Such as Islam.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Niceness, meh. One of the precipitating factors in the row that tore our old parish apart (and got us kicked out on our asses) was Niceness. When the church first started, everybody was poor, everybody was desperate, and pretty much everybody was harboring a whole xylophone of skeletons in their respective closets. You could hear them jingle every time we got together. One reason why people glommed on to the message of forgiveness and salvation in Christ. We knew we needed it.
But as time went by and people got acculturated, and wealthy (at least by local immigrant standards), quite a few of them forgot the Gospel in favor of Niceness. They began to object to people of unsavory backgrounds who showed up at church or who appeared to take up too much of the pastor's attention (usually during a crisis). They saw them as a blot on the congregation's reputation. And they forgot their own closet skeletons, now carefully dejingled and silenced and locked away out of memory. Their memory, at least.
The immediate catalyst for getting rid of us (and the non-Nice members who remained) came when a woman with a reputation for promiscuity began attending church, and several of the Nice members required Mr. Lamb to put her out of the church. He refused, and the split was on.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
A church is sometimes a place where those who try to emulate Jesus are given the judgemental back- biting treatment to such an extent that they may leave with their tail between their legs never to return. A nice social arrangement is not what church is supposed to be.
Are you equating backbiting and judgmentalism with being nice? Not how I'd use the word.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Oooooh nice covers a MULTITUDE of sins.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
If you behaved very much as Jesus did, as recorded in the gospels, you would have to be a prominent and controversial figure. You would become at least the leader of a breakaway denomination, if not of some new personal cult.
If every Christian tried to do that, it would be chaos.
But I do agree with the point that many people's practice of Christianity is safe, nice, insular and barely connected to the life of Jesus.
Maybe it would be more realistic to emulate the disciples of Jesus?
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
If you want nice then better stay clear of religion.
Secularism does give the appearance of doing nice quite well. There is however no human-made 'ism, ideology, society or practice that can deliver 100% nice. Besides, what is Nice? It's a word that can blow away in a breeze.
To OP. The character in the Gospel described as Jesus of Nazareth had some pretty rough edges, and even a bit of a temper when fig trees didn't come up with the goods.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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earrings
Shipmate
# 13306
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Posted
Aravis said
quote:
Maybe it would be more realistic to emulate the disciples of Jesus?
In holy week one betrays, one denies, many are fearful and run. Consistently earlier they are easily confused. But post-Easter/Pentecost they begin to be transformed as do we now.
Learning to be the best we can be, to follow faithfully and in line with Jesus may be our best. Paul in Philippians says,
quote:
let this mind be among you...
and points to self-giving.
Not perhaps being Jesus but learning to be alongside Jesus
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My blog musings on all sorts of stuff https://priscillavicar.wordpress.com/
Posts: 135 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You'd associate with the needy, you'd serve them in every way you could. You'd defend the weak against murderous injustice. You'd speak to power - which is ALWAYS evil - publically. You wouldn't make pathetic deluded claims.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Pay close attention.
Do not condemn or judge.
If someone asks you for help, give it.
If someone asks you for something you have, give it.
Love your Creator.
Love your fellow being, especially if they present themselves as your opponents.
Do not take more than you need for today.
Do not store up possessions as if they will insulate you from suffering.
Forgive everyone, especially yourself (though I doubt Jesus had to do much of that).
Pay close attention. (It bears repeating)
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Micah 6:8.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
quote:
Maybe it would be more realistic to emulate the disciples of Jesus?
Well Paul does say "be imitators of me as I am of Christ".
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
If the discussion is going to center around "nice" then we should probably establish a meaning for that.
In the United States, or at least within my experience, nice is pretty much synonymous with kind and I don't think anyone can be too kind for Jesus.
I think the temptation we're talking about here is that of judging people by how polite they are.
Part of being nice - being kind, being considerate of others - is being polite, having good manners.
So that when you see someone being rude, it's not inaccurate to say "that's not nice"
People are not born with good manners. It has to be taught (preferably by both instruction and example). Acting with good manners within one's community is a good thing.
The problem comes when encountering people who don't display good manners. Some of those will be nasty rude vexatious people who know perfectly well how to be polite but think they're too important to be bothered with that. Some of them will be having a really bad day - facing pressures (whether real-world stresses or mental disorder) that we know nothing of. Some of them will be kind people of different cultures or subcultures (wrong side of the tracks ?)
The temptation is to lump all these together as "not nice" and avoid them, based on their lack of what passes for manners in our own subculture.
Jesus was known for not doing that.
Polite is good; it's just not the only good.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
A church is sometimes a place where those who try to emulate Jesus are given the judgemental back- biting treatment to such an extent that they may leave with their tail between their legs never to return. A nice social arrangement is not what church is supposed to be.
Are you equating backbiting and judgmentalism with being nice? Not how I'd use the word.
I'm bewildered by this whole thread, although I thank Russ for trying to explain it to me.
There's nothing nice about complaining that some new church members are not very clean or whatever the problem is. I've never attended a church where any member complained that the others weren't dressed well or were sleeping with too many men like the ones in LambChopped church, so I'm surprised to find that goes on.
Yet, if someone did, I would hardly call that person nice. I might be tempted to call that person a snob or shallow, but I wouldn't want to be that judgmental of my fellow church members and that's some of what I'm seeing on this thread.
You're looking around and complaining that they aren't -- what?-- heading into the scary part of town on Saturday night to preach the gospel to drug dealers? Are you? Even if you are should you be complaining that others aren't?
Nice things Jesus did:
Turn the water into wine so the host wouldn't be embarrassed (or just because his mom asked him to.)
Fed the 5000.
Healed the sick.
Raised Lazarus at least partly because his sisters were so upset.
Told a lot of people who didn't think they were very much, that they were blessed in God's site.
Most of what he did was nice.
In fact the only time he got really mad was when people were selling merchandise in the temple-- Evidently he didn't think that was very nice. Not the proper place, you know. There was also something about some man not bothering to put on the proper wedding clothing for some do.
Even if your definition of "nice" is "proper" rather than my definition which is "kind." I think there's some indication that Jesus liked "proper," when it was based on respect and consideration of others.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
There's nothing nice about complaining that some new church members are not very clean or whatever the problem is.
Too right. That's not being nice, it's being judgmental.
But in a sense, as soon as one holds any values at all, that implies thinking less of people who don't live up to that value.
Valuing bravery (to pick a virtue entirely at random) means not being indifferent to bravery or the lack thereof as displayed by others. If you hold that value, how can you not think less of a coward ?
This "not judging" isn't easy. How to express the idea that "not judging" is a good thing, without implicitly judging those we perceive as judgmental ?
You may have a better answer. The only one I can see is to ask "less than what ?" To allow that the coward is less than they could be, less of a fully-human-being than we think God would like them to be. Without being less than the brave man. Incommensurate persons...
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
But in a sense, as soon as one holds any values at all, that implies thinking less of people who don't live up to that value.
Yes but that's true of any virtue, not just niceness. If you're going to say "We shouldn't try to be nice because that leads us to judge people" you have to say "We shouldn't aspire to any virtues because that leads us to judge people." And, ultimately, "We should try to be like Jesus, or Paul, or anybody. We shouldn't try to better ourselves in any way. Lest we fall into the temptation of judging others."
Which is nuts.
[ 02. April 2016, 15:26: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
We should all be bastards, lest we judge someone.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
That may be your excuse...
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Being that kind of woman, and it being spring...I am thinking more along the lines of "Would Jesus (or Our Mother or Mary M) wear these sandals?"
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
In fact the only time he got really mad was when people were selling merchandise in the temple-- Evidently he didn't think that was very nice. Not the proper place, you know. There was also something about some man not bothering to put on the proper wedding clothing for some do.
He frequently called his audience "hypocrites". That's not very nice.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
A church is sometimes a place where those who try to emulate Jesus are given the judgemental back- biting treatment to such an extent that they may leave with their tail between their legs never to return. A nice social arrangement is not what church is supposed to be.
Are you equating backbiting and judgmentalism with being nice? Not how I'd use the word.
I'm bewildered by this whole thread, although I thank Russ for trying to explain it to me.
There's nothing nice about complaining that some new church members are not very clean or whatever the problem is. I've never attended a church where any member complained that the others weren't dressed well or were sleeping with too many men like the ones in LambChopped church, so I'm surprised to find that goes on.
Yet, if someone did, I would hardly call that person nice. I might be tempted to call that person a snob or shallow, but I wouldn't want to be that judgmental of my fellow church members and that's some of what I'm seeing on this thread.
You're looking around and complaining that they aren't -- what?-- heading into the scary part of town on Saturday night to preach the gospel to drug dealers? Are you? Even if you are should you be complaining that others aren't?
Nice things Jesus did:
Turn the water into wine so the host wouldn't be embarrassed (or just because his mom asked him to.)
Fed the 5000.
Healed the sick.
Raised Lazarus at least partly because his sisters were so upset.
Told a lot of people who didn't think they were very much, that they were blessed in God's site.
Most of what he did was nice.
In fact the only time he got really mad was when people were selling merchandise in the temple-- Evidently he didn't think that was very nice. Not the proper place, you know. There was also something about some man not bothering to put on the proper wedding clothing for some do.
Even if your definition of "nice" is "proper" rather than my definition which is "kind." I think there's some indication that Jesus liked "proper," when it was based on respect and consideration of others.
'Nice' definitely has a class aspect to it for some people....I would view the Pharisees as 'nice' in that they were respectable and 'proper', regardless of the insides. 'Nice people' definitely mean 'sufficiently middle-class people who are like us' (in the British sense) to me.
'Proper' is based on classism rather than actual respect and consideration of others, surely?
I also am not sure whether 'nice' is the right term to use for miracles proclaiming the glory of God and the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven. It feels a bit like saying a momentous historical event is 'nice'.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
He was ALWAYS nice to the powerless. Always. And he NEVER abused His power.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
I tend to use nice to mean inoffensive, tolerant, and mildly pleasant.
As I use the term, backbiting and intolerance are definitely not nice.
Nice is not good, as is often said. Someone who is nice might be too willing to go along with injustice. Protesting is usually not nice. But as a general rule, I think in cases of doubt it's better to risk erring on the side of nice than the side of not nice.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
Your tagline says it all Dafyd.
Raptor and Martin are right on.
The question here is not about being nice rather than nasty, but about how our version of niceness equates to following Jesus. How do we behave around people who aren't "nice"? Can we show them the same compassion that he did? And not in a superior way, but as fellow travellers?
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The flip side is being a jerk and blaming Jesus.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Maybe it would be more realistic to emulate the disciples of Jesus?
This is one reason that we (Orfies, Caffix, etc.) have a cadre of saints that we learn about, paint icons of, etc. People to emulate.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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