|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Atheists in the United Church of Canada
|
hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
|
Posted
Believing that God does or doesn't exist, might just be a question of words. Plenty of people think God is beyond normal categories, including existence. Some the think it's important to leave the question of God's existence open. Ernst Bloch wrote that 'only an atheist can be a good Christian' and vice versa.
More importantly, though, leaving aside philosophy and the words we choose, what about the possibility that you might fall out of love with God?
I'm thinking of people going through a bereavement or abuse or some set of circumstances that upend their trust in life and others and make them wonder who they really are and what their life is really about. To be extreme, if say your child murdered your partner and then killed themself, not only would that be bound to rock your faith, I would be disturbed by any faith that wasn't radically questioned by it; I would suspect it was compartmentalised, disconnected from reality and highly suspicious.
I've led a sheltered life so far, but I believe my faith, my basic trust in the goodness of God, is at risk. Conversely, I think it's possible that one day I might have a positive turn towards God so strong that I would look back on my life thus far and say that I had been an unbeliever.
I think that shifts in our faith are normal, including shifts into temporary lack of faith. It's one of the ways I like to interpret Gethsemane that Jesus lost faith. Last night I saw King Lear: that takes you to a bleak and uncomfortable place.
Precisely because being a minister is not a task that can be done by anyone or even a robot, but is a role filled by a person complete with history and belonging, I don't think you can put a limit on a minister's faith journey. Otherwise we had all better stop watching Shakespeare tragedies and the news from Syria.
--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I am somewhat confused that her congregation, as a whole, appears to support her (at least on the website). I am also quite surprised by the fact she has been at that charge for nearly 20 years. It has been my understanding that most ministries in the United Church are time limited. Perhaps I am wrong.
Looking at West Hill's site, it seems the congregation supports various of her ideas, having voted this year to join the Oasis Network, and starting a secular dinner church nicknamed "West West Hill". (And it meets at a regular church across town!)
I wonder if part of the negative reaction to Greta is that her current congregation *does* support her and agree with her, and is rapidly acting on that and connecting with like-minded folks? From the West Hill site and Greta's own, I think maybe a felt need is being met. Whether it should be met at a UCC* church is a good, but separate, question.
It might be best and cleanest, all around, if West Hill calved off into its own community, unaffiliated with the denomination. OTOH, does the UCC have any breathing room for experimentation and diversity? The RCC, for example, does have a lot of diversity, even if not obvious at first glance and not all approved.
*I'm stumbling on what are the proper initials, because, here in the US, UCC = United Church of Christ. And, here in California, UC = Univ. of California.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
More importantly, though, leaving aside philosophy and the words we choose, what about the possibility that you might fall out of love with God?
For the average congregant, you can turn up and go through the motions even if you're having a patch when you're not "feeling it", and the routine will get you through.
For the priest, that's much more difficult, which makes it a bigger challenge when being a priest is also how that person supports his or her family.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
This isn't the first case. Infamously, twenty-two years ago Anthony Freeman had his Church of England licence revoked and was sacked after writing God in Us: The Case for Christian Humanism. ...
I see that he likened himself to the prophet Jeremiah - though he skates over the rather obvious difficulty of how one can be a prophet of a God one does not believe in.
He also implies that once freed from the shackles of parish ministry and the Bishop of Chichester, he would speak out.
That was 22 years ago. Has anyone heard of him since? Or did he just get some ordinary job and disappear?
Returning to Gretta, if she talks about community,but is building that community on a foundation of unbelief rather than belief, how does she manage to persuade people to belong to her congregation. This is particularly critical if each congregation is responsible for funding its own minister.
If each Sunday morning, we gather together to celebrate what we don't believe in, what we don't have in common, isn't it sooner rather than later going to occur to people that they'd be better off going elsewhere. If I were, say, a stamp collector, wouldn't I be better off going and spending my Sunday mornings with fellow stamp collectors?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
I read the Anthony Freeman book, albeit some time ago. He wasn't arguing against God, but the belief and depictions of a God that rules the world as per the William Blake illustrations. And the hymns and worship geared towards that God. He's probably more discussing the sort of panentheism that Dave Tomlinson describes in Re-enchanting Christianity.
(I've also read David Jenkins' autobiography where he talks about the misquotation of his sermon that "resurrection is not just a conjuring trick with a bag of bones", but went on to say that there was something more profound going on as witnessed by the change in behaviour in the disciples.)
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynnk:
How can an atheist person be a minister in a christian church?How can a congregation accept an atheist as a teacher and leader? I have just read 48 posts discussing this.Why hasn't the congregation left if the pastor won't?My limited experience with atheists is that they are not just non believers, but quite antagonistic toward Christians.Surely time in church learning about and worshiping God is to precious to waste it on a minister who doesn't even believe in God.
Well, the early Christians were calloed 'atheists' because they didn't acknowledge ther Roman gods.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
For the average congregant, you can turn up and go through the motions even if you're having a patch when you're not "feeling it", and the routine will get you through.
For the priest, that's much more difficult, which makes it a bigger challenge when being a priest is also how that person supports his or her family.
The world is full of- OK, not quite full of, but it's not very uncommon to encounter- clergy and former clergy who earn their living in other ways (teaching, social work, and so on). If her beliefs mattered that much to her, and she was good enough to do anything else at all, she'd be looking for another job. If she's not any good enough to do anything else at all she's almost certainly not any good at being a cleric either, regardless of what she believes about God.
[ 03. April 2016, 16:07: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
That's not helpful. Why would mousethief be expected to know something about a different denomination in a different country? The same charge could be levelled against you, if you were unaware of the dynamics of the LCMS
Just as a point of fact, but I'm pretty sure the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod has churces in Canada as well.
I'm aware of the LCC churches (Lutheran Church--Canada) and we have a close relationship, but I'm not sure it's in any way so close that we could claim any congregation as "LCMS." If there is one (and I know there are anomalous situations in a scant handful of places around the world), it's likely to be only one.
According to wiki, the LCC was founded in 1988, by churches that had previously been members of the LCMS.
However, there are apparently still 16 churches in Canada directly affiliated with the LCMS.
I will confess that when I wrote the post to which you replied, I was unaware of the split, and was simply remembering having seen LCMS churches in my home province at one point. But I must have seen those pre-88, since my province was part of the merger apparently.
[ 03. April 2016, 16:18: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
I don't know about Canada, but I've read that it can be hard for clergy in some parts of the USA to leave the ministry and just walk into some other job. Some areas are very depressed, with lots of competition for work.
Moreover, not all clergy have previous work experience in other fields, or experience that's still valid after 10, 20, 30 years away. Retraining to become a teacher or social worker, etc. might be expensive or unsuitable. The bookish careers that the clergy are often drawn to are less available these days, though some of the famous, enterprising ones apparently have the skills and means to go freelance as writers, speakers, or organisers of humanistic fellowships or meetings.
In the UK at least it's fairly easy to access social security and free healthcare, which must surely be helpful. And perhaps British culture, being more secular, makes it easier to think of the ministry as a job that you can enter or leave at will, like any other. I don't know if North American societies, which are a bit more religious, view it quite like that.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
For the average congregant, you can turn up and go through the motions even if you're having a patch when you're not "feeling it", and the routine will get you through.
For the priest, that's much more difficult, which makes it a bigger challenge when being a priest is also how that person supports his or her family.
The world is full of- OK, not quite full of, but it's not very uncommon to encounter- clergy and former clergy who earn their living in other ways (teaching, social work, and so on). If her beliefs mattered that much to her, and she was good enough to do anything else at all, she'd be looking for another job. If she's not any good enough to do anything else at all she's almost certainly not any good at being a cleric either, regardless of what she believes about God.
My RC canon law contact in Montréal has worked with the files of several ex-priests-- most head into teaching, and a few into marriage counselling (many have licences and professional qualifications for this). A few have become EMT staff or drivers (she did an interesting note on the periculo mortis absolution her avowed atheist ambulance driver laicized priest gave a dying man).
I know a cleric, once of the Diocese of Québec some years ago, who left after five years as he did not feel he believed in anything strongly enough (aside from mathematics, which he now teaches) to preach it-- he told me that you can only repeat empty words so often. To console those Canadian clerics constrained by the notion of pension loss, the ACoC has a pension agreement with the universities, provincial and federal governments, a network of hospitals and community colleges/CEGEPs, as well as with the chartered banks and most federally-regulated employers (and two RC religious orders!).
I imagine that the UCC has a similar arrangement so if Ms Vosper could find a teaching or social work or bureaucratic job, without endangering her retirement.
And, of course, Uber seems to be doing well in Toronto right now.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And, frankly, off the top of my head I couldn't tell you if any particular Presbyterian body has sacraments, or ordinances. Again, I am not intimately familiar with the workings of that particular denominational family.
At your service. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
FWIW, and to the extent it may shed light on the UCCan situation, all Presbyterian bodies (recognizing the possibility of some small, very quirky aberration) will recognize two sacraments—baptism and the Lord's Supper/communion/Eucharist. (Historically, confirmation, marriage and ordination were sometimes referred to as ordinances, but I rarely hear that now.) Most if not all Reformed or Presbyterian have some version of the idea that the church is found wherever the Gospel is rightly proclaimed and the sacraments are rightly administered. (Some would add wherever discipline/order is rightly maintained.)
The primary duties of a minister of Word and Sacrament are, as the title suggests, proclamation or preaching, and administration of the sacraments. Other things such as pastoral care, counseling or the like are important but not unique to the ministry. Anyone conceivably could do them. But ordinarily only a minister preaches, and except in certain limited circumstances (in some but not all Presbyterian bodies) only a minister may administer the sacraments.
Thus, what a minister believes (or doesn't believe) has a great deal of significance to preaching. We would not say that lack of a certain belief, or of any belief, on the part of the minister invalidates a sacrament. But we would say that it could affect a proper understanding of the sacrament in a congregation. As a result, there has always been some degree of assent to certain doctrines as a condition to ordination and continued ministry, with oversight of that assent belonging to a body above the congregation.
[ 03. April 2016, 19:32: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
....I imagine that the UCC has a similar arrangement so if Ms Vosper could find a teaching or social work or bureaucratic job, without endangering her retirement.
And, of course, Uber seems to be doing well in Toronto right now.
Driving a cab? 'I 'ad that 'oly Trinity in the back of my cab once, guv- except I didn't!'
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Believing that God does or doesn't exist, might just be a question of words. Plenty of people think God is beyond normal categories, including existence. Some the think it's important to leave the question of God's existence open. Ernst Bloch wrote that 'only an atheist can be a good Christian' and vice versa.
Jack Spong is 85. Tillich died in 50 years ago. Bonhoeffer died 70 years ago. It is 50 years since the Time magazine cover on the Death of God theologians and 53 years since John AT Robinson's Honest to God. It is a very long time since the early Church fathers.
And yet churches and the wider community still struggle for language to talk about this.
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
God, or not God. That is the question. To the Christian surely the answer must be "God, not not God." Christianity is a theistic religion. God is at its very heart. Not as a metaphor. As reality.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Perhaps right MT, though I'm reminded of various talks over time, when someone asks: "do you know God (or Jesus)?". To which I think one of the few sane answers is "it is unlikely that I believe as you do". (Notwithstanding that persons asking such questions are usually actually wanting to tell, not ask.)
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Perhaps right MT, though I'm reminded of various talks over time, when someone asks: "do you know God (or Jesus)?". To which I think one of the few sane answers is "it is unlikely that I believe as you do". (Notwithstanding that persons asking such questions are usually actually wanting to tell, not ask.)
Hard to tell. If all they want to do is tell, not listen, then the answer would have to be, "Yeah. Oh look at the time!"
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
I'm reminded of one of my favorite scenes from the old "One Day At A Time" sitcom, from the '70s.
Teen-aged Julie has become a born-again Christian, and is in a rather effervescent/annoying stage. She even stops a nun, and sincerely asks if she knows Jesus. The nun is shocked.
IIRC, Ann, Julie's mom, has a talk with Julie, who quiets down and works more on just living her faith.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Not as a metaphor. As reality.
You say that as though the difference was clear and simple
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
No. Just as if there is a difference.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
The language is difficult. What you see as meaningful enough to be a foundational belief, others may see as a distinction so close to meaninglessness as to make the 'existence of God' a mere shibboleth.
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
The language is difficult. What you see as meaningful enough to be a foundational belief, others may see as a distinction so close to meaninglessness as to make the 'existence of God' a mere shibboleth.
If "God exists" and "God doesn't exist" are so close as to be meaningless, then words are worthless and we might as well go back to the trees.
[ 04. April 2016, 04:42: Message edited by: mousethief ]
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
AndyHB
Apprentice
# 18580
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I give much more weight to a pastor's ability to help people on their journeys to love god and show compassion to their fellow humans than to a pastor's private loyalty to a denomination's stated belief set. Sometimes the latter can get in the way of the former.
sabine
But sabine, the existence of God is the core belief of Christianity. If this pastor doesn't believe in that central belief any more, how they honestly quote:
help people on their journeys to love god
?
--------------------
TWAM is always on the look-out for unwanted tools. Check-out website - www.twam.uk - for 'tools wanted' lists and collector contact details.
Posts: 17 | From: S.Wales | Registered: Apr 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
AndyHB
Apprentice
# 18580
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Just to be clear, it appears Gretta Vosper is on her last legs:
From her own congregation's website.
Had to smile at Pastor Vosper reference to 'theological diversity' in reference to her own position. If she really is an atheist, what is nher theological position anyway?
“I'm stunned that a ruling with such profound impact on the diversity of theological expression by clergy in the United Church of Canada has been upheld with no apparent scrutiny or transparency."
--------------------
TWAM is always on the look-out for unwanted tools. Check-out website - www.twam.uk - for 'tools wanted' lists and collector contact details.
Posts: 17 | From: S.Wales | Registered: Apr 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mousethief: If "God exists" and "God doesn't exist" are so close as to be meaningless, then words are worthless and we might as well go back to the trees.
But what does "God exists" mean? Clearly, God doesn't exist in the same way as, say, a table exists.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
...
The primary duties of a minister of Word and Sacrament are, as the title suggests, proclamation or preaching, and administration of the sacraments. Other things such as pastoral care, counseling or the like are important but not unique to the ministry. Anyone conceivably could do them. But ordinarily only a minister preaches, and except in certain limited circumstances (in some but not all Presbyterian bodies) only a minister may administer the sacraments.
...
At our Presbyterian Church, before communion, the pastor leads the congregation in the Apostle's Creed. The purpose is to remind us of our vows at baptism or confirmation of faith where we confirmed what we believe.
If the pastor cannot consent to the Apostle's Creed, he or she has no right to be a pastor. Taking money from a church to preach a gospel one does not believe, or to pretend to hold a faith one does not hold is fraud.
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
mousethief: If "God exists" and "God doesn't exist" are so close as to be meaningless, then words are worthless and we might as well go back to the trees.
But what does "God exists" mean? Clearly, God doesn't exist in the same way as, say, a table exists.
Having a hard time seeing why this is relevant.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mousethief: Having a hard time seeing why this is relevant.
Well, it makes it hard for me to understand what phrases like "Either God exists, or He doesn't exist" mean.
You said that this would render words meaningless. Indeed, I suspect that the verb 'to exist' may not have much meaning when it has God as its grammatical subject.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
mousethief: If "God exists" and "God doesn't exist" are so close as to be meaningless, then words are worthless and we might as well go back to the trees.
But what does "God exists" mean? Clearly, God doesn't exist in the same way as, say, a table exists.
Having a hard time seeing why this is relevant.
Are the claims
1. God exists and God does not exist must have clearly different meanings.
2. The meaning of God exists is irrelevant.
easy to hold together, or deeply perplexing?
--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Yeah I didn't articulate that terribly well.
What verbs we choose to use for God are important, and I have a lot of time for apophatic theology. But after a certain point it fogs the issue more than clarifies. Whether God "is" or "exists" or "subsists" or "is real" or "is existence," I don't think really addresses the issue that "God" and "not-God" are different views about reality. Whatever you think "reality" means. (We can play this "my word is better than your word" game all day.)
If "God" and "not God" as two different views or theories or theses (pick your noun or supply one of your own choosing -- after a while being overly nice about precision in language without offering any suggestions of one's own starts to look downright passive aggressive, sez me) aren't distinguishable, at least in theory, then "God" has lost all meaning, or language has become worthless. The latter possibility prompting my "back to the trees" snark.
HTH.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Believing that God does or doesn't exist, might just be a question of words.
Indeed - God does not 'exist'. God 'is existence.'
True in a sense, but it's all too easily used as a way for people who don't believe in God to hedge their bets.
Vosper & Spong are peas in a pod; careerists who have no idea what the hell they'd do if they lost their clergy jobs.* And provocateurism keeps those speaking engagements rolling in, doesn't it just?
*Yes, I'm aware that Spong is now retired. And presumably drawing a pension for pissing inside the big tent, too.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Well, we have established that Vosper is the uCCan's Donald Trump, in a way.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
|
Posted
I've always like CS Peirce's maxim : "Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts".
Both Christians and atheists know that there is a basic difference between their positions, whatever the best words to describe it are.
--------------------
We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
... Vosper & Spong are peas in a pod; careerists who have no idea what the hell they'd do if they lost their clergy jobs.* And provocateurism keeps those speaking engagements rolling in, doesn't it just?
*Yes, I'm aware that Spong is now retired. And presumably drawing a pension for pissing inside the big tent, too.
Being retired doesn't mean a person has to stop profiting from touring the lecture circuits of the world.
Going back to my previous question about the vicar who got sacked 22 years ago, does anyone know what happened to him after that?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Well, we have established that Vosper is the uCCan's Donald Trump, in a way.
To the extent that she's trolling the UCCan in the same way that Donald Trump is trolling the Republican Party, yes.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
I've found Freeman. He is still a Priest: he is honorary assistant priest at St Paul's, Chichester and is assistant editor of the journal "Modern Believing" (this is the old "Modern Churchman's Union"). One of his books has a Foreword by Spong - now there's a surprise!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
The words "theistic God" and "non-theistic God" are a bit opaque to me. Is "non-theist God" an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms? Does not the word/concept of 'God' require some sort of beingness as a object/person? I'm considering the terms "The Force", and "Higher Power" here. Sort of like the "God is Love" concept, i.e., God is kindliness and (non)personified good or something. Might someone explain a bit?
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mousethief: If "God" and "not God" [...] aren't distinguishable [...]
This is much better than "God exists" vs "God doesn't exist". To me, "God or not God" is a relational question, not a logical one, and can be answered without knowing what "God exists" means.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
mousethief: If "God" and "not God" [...] aren't distinguishable [...]
This is much better than "God exists" vs "God doesn't exist". To me, "God or not God" is a relational question, not a logical one, and can be answered without knowing what "God exists" means.
Good, that was what I was trying to do. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mousethief: Good, that was what I was trying to do.
Ah, in that case sorry for misunderstanding you earlier.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
|
Posted
It all makes much better sense now.
I wonder if Vosper talks about God much in her preaching and work, and if it is helpful to others. I have always been grateful to the radical wing of the church for inspiring and exciting me. There's an element of Christlikeness that can only be expressed by those willing to live dangerously close to the edge, and those able to mint fresh words and thoughts to speak of God.
--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
aamcle
Apprentice
# 13125
|
Posted
You can liken the Church to a sales organisation with one product - "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified".
If you don't believe in the product you can't sell it, there's no place for you.
Reality check, either He is more or less what the Church/Bible says he is or we may as well get ourselves of to the Pub.
If it's all bollocks then she still should be sacked for:-
- letting the organisation down.
not getting the beers in.
God Bless. aamcle
Posts: 12 | From: Merseyside | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I wonder what SusanDoris would say about this.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
|
Posted
I'm not sure it's clear that not believing in God means that you can't believe in "Jesus Christ and him crucified"...
--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Vosper & Spong are peas in a pod; careerists who have no idea what the hell they'd do if they lost their clergy jobs.* And provocateurism keeps those speaking engagements rolling in, doesn't it just?
*Yes, I'm aware that Spong is now retired. And presumably drawing a pension for pissing inside the big tent, too.
I know nothing about Vosper, but I've met more than one person who has told me they are Christians today because of Spong - that he gave them hope in finding a third path between the aridity of materialism and a formulation of Christianity they found literally unbelievable.
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
aamcle
Apprentice
# 13125
|
Posted
quote:
I'm not sure it's clear that not believing in God means that you can't believe in "Jesus Christ and him crucified"...
But then in what sense could you be be called Christian?
A man lived and died so will I as will you.
There are many religions so if you don't believe in JC his death and resurrection pick another but what will it gain you if you lose you're soul?
Without the resurrection death is just death and without meaning or at best no more meaning than the death of any random thing and yes I still miss my dog.
That being the end and total of it's meaning a fading memory of joy and loss.
Just aim to enjoy what you have it's all your getting.
I'm signing off now, words for words sake to polish our "smarts" tend to irritate me, all the more so as I get older.
aamcle
Posts: 12 | From: Merseyside | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
Maybe someone who gives his life for his friend, believing that his life is all he has and death is his true end, maybe that person is showing more love than the saint who gives his life in sure and certain hope of the ressurection.
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Interesting that someone could become a Christian because of Spong, seeing as Spong isn't a Christian.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
mt--
Maybe he was something for them to bounce off, like in a pinball game?
AIUI, in sailing there's something called "tacking", where (due to currents, weather, etc.) you sometimes have to go the wrong way to wind up in the right place. So if you want to go W but there are interfering conditions, you might have to go E, then do a lot of zigzagging. (Sailors, please don't laugh too hard in my face! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
I often do similarly, on my own winding path.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
