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Source: (consider it) Thread: Atheists in the United Church of Canada
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

Mind you, I'm comfortable with my spirituality, cognitive dissonances and all.

Lucky you.

Now imagine that you were her. You love the job and the congregation and they love you.

You'd leave everything? Your home, your life, the people you love to minister to?

Why?

She's not pretending anything to anyone. Some people (I'm one of them) simply can't compartmentalise their lives. WYSIWYG.

I don't see that as a bad thing.

This sort of thing happens all the time in industry and public service. Where someone doesn't agree with the corporate plan or government direction. They must either comply and subordinate their individual ideas or resign. People often grumble and comply, putting aside their personal feelings because significant secondary gain is present: resign and you have no job or income. What she has done is to poke the bear, repeatedly, and she has no grounds to complain when the bear finally responds to her provocation.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
hatless

Shipmate
# 3365

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I suppose the difference is that churches aren't just companies with particular aims. There are many denominations, but each one claims to be sufficient, perhaps comprehensive. There should be no outside to a church. A company where I don't fit can direct me to a different one, or a business start-up course, but a church ought to be able to contain me, if I wish to be contained.

I've never bothered to follow the links to find out about Greta Vosper; I have little interest in her case, except that when a church starts excluding people I wonder who might be next.

I gather GV doesn't believe in God. Perhaps she doesn't believe that God exists, which would put her in good company. I gather she doesn't believe in the Bible. Perhaps she doesn't believe in certain doctrines of inspiration and biblical authority, all very familiar here.

Purple can be made by mixing blue and red. Orange is red and yellow. So purple unicorn is a blue and it is an orange. I'm not sure which it is nearer to, which it should keep company with. In fact, though it would make our curtains look like mud, I like it because it demonstrates that there is a continuum from blue to orange. And beyond.

In matters of God I don't think we can have the sort of certainty you need to draw lines that limit and exclude. The church doesn't have a product that we define; we serve the mission of God.

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My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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What God? Greta Vosper is an atheist. If the mission of the Church is to serve God and there is no God then we have a problem. And, no, the church shouldn't alter its core doctrines so that anybody who wants to be a minister can be a minister. Such an institution would have nothing to say except what it was told to say. Why would such an institution exist?

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Now imagine that you were her. You love the job and the congregation and they love you.

She doesn't love the job. Her job is to be a Christian minister, and she doesn't believe in God. She might well love what she spends her time doing, but it's not the job she's paid to do.

quote:

You'd leave everything? Your home, your life, the people you love to minister to?


She doesn't have to do that - she just has to stop pretending to be a UCC minister while she's doing it. If her congregation want to leave with her, hire a local community hall, and pay Greta Vosper to do whatever it is she does for them, they are free to do so.


quote:
Some people (I'm one of them) simply can't compartmentalise their lives. WYSIWYG.

I don't see that as a bad thing.

I don't, either. I'm not asking her to compartmentalize. I'm asking her to be honest. She cannot in honesty affirm any part of the traditional creeds of the Church, or the "new creed" which I gather is popular in UCC churches.

That doesn't make her a bad person, but it makes her unsuitable for ministry in the UCC. And what she should have done a long time ago is, with honesty, say that her beliefs have diverged so far from those of the UCC that she cannot in conscience remain as a minister within it. The fact that she didn't - well...

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I read some of the articles in the Canadian press about her today. The made several points. First was that she is in a tiny minority of ministers in the UCC. There was a survey, not completely systematic but pretty good. Her atheism and being a UCC minister is essentially a one-off = her.

The second point is that she failed to get beyond the interventionist god who does miracles and the god present but not interventionist. The called it "panentheism" and it seemed to suggest that many UCC ministers are into some form of this or in the direction of, though not fully defined in my mind after reading. I realized that some of my thinking about God is in this direction, and also, that I am probably guilty of more sophistication of understanding, even if vague, than her binary thinking. And she has formal theological training.

The third point seems to be that she has been cruising and requests - via her actions - for the very thing to which she now objects. She has wanted to be some sort of martyr. Writing things that can only be seen as directly provoking those who deal with doctrinal things.

The final point is that the church she's minister of once had 150 parishioners. 100 have left. I think she's successfully destroyed it.

I don't get her martyr wish. At all.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
hatless

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# 3365

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
What God? Greta Vosper is an atheist. If the mission of the Church is to serve God and there is no God then we have a problem. And, no, the church shouldn't alter its core doctrines so that anybody who wants to be a minister can be a minister. Such an institution would have nothing to say except what it was told to say. Why would such an institution exist?

I don't know the nature of her atheism, but some sorts are good. The person who refuses to believe in a God who finds one person a parking place while another's child dies, for example.

And I think I would be happy to say that the institution of the church is worthless and no one should ever serve it. The church exists only for the purpose and reign of God. (Whatever God is.)

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My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
hatless

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# 3365

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I read some of the articles in the Canadian press about her today. The made several points. First was that she is in a tiny minority of ministers in the UCC. There was a survey, not completely systematic but pretty good. Her atheism and being a UCC minister is essentially a one-off = her.

The second point is that she failed to get beyond the interventionist god who does miracles and the god present but not interventionist. The called it "panentheism" and it seemed to suggest that many UCC ministers are into some form of this or in the direction of, though not fully defined in my mind after reading. I realized that some of my thinking about God is in this direction, and also, that I am probably guilty of more sophistication of understanding, even if vague, than her binary thinking. And she has formal theological training.

The third point seems to be that she has been cruising and requests - via her actions - for the very thing to which she now objects. She has wanted to be some sort of martyr. Writing things that can only be seen as directly provoking those who deal with doctrinal things.

The final point is that the church she's minister of once had 150 parishioners. 100 have left. I think she's successfully destroyed it.

I don't get her martyr wish. At all.

Who called it panentheism? Was that 'they' or 'she'?

Panentheism is well known. John Macquarrie made a good statement of it.

I don't know what you mean by 'she has been cruising'. I doubt you mean she has been on holiday on a boat.

You say she has asked for something - martyrdom? meaning dismissal? - but asked for it by her actions. If this is now something she doesn't want, how sure can we be that she asked for it, if we are only interpreting her actions; not a precise science, I'd think.

It sounds to me as if she is someone with a little theological understanding being condemned by those with none at all.

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My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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She is a website troll made real. And behaved as such. The United Church prayed fervently that she would simply resign and move on, but she didn't.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Churches aren't just companies with particular aims. There are many denominations, but each one claims to be sufficient, perhaps comprehensive. There should be no outside to a church. A company where I don't fit can direct me to a different one, or a business start-up course, but a church ought to be able to contain me, if I wish to be contained.

I'm not sure about this 'sufficient, perhaps comprehensive' claim.

Theologically conservative denominations only claim to be so for those who willingly share their theology.

More moderate denominations may claim to include everyone, but they too have preferred kinds of public theological expression, which usually means they try to avoid theological extremes.

And all kinds of denominations and congregations have a constituency limited by virtue of their cultural and social positioning. The CofE, a state church, offers different worship styles and theological perspectives in different congregations.

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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I think Vosper's problem is that she went to doubt to dogmatism in her unbelief.

She claims that there are plenty of people who believe the same way she does. She might have a point, because that people have doubts, and there are people who may be honest and say that there are parts of the faith that they interpret as metaphorical rather than literal.

But it's the difference in saying the Virgin birth can be understood metaphorically and saying the Virgin Birth is as of no use whatsoever. The latter puts one outside of the Christian tradition.

I suspect that there is a continuum between believing everything in one's Tradition literally and one in which one is unsure if one believes in anything of that Tradition. However what unites them both is that Tradition is understood as worth discussing, worth reacting to, worth debating. Vosper it seems, no longer has use, at all, for the Christian Tradition.

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Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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SPK has answered the question for me mostly. But I would note she also wrote the Moderator of the UCC about it. Which seems rather a narcisstic martyrish thing to do ! Silly at the very least.

The panentheism was used to describe a sizable group!of UCC ministers. I hadn't understood and still don't, much of what that is. Though I identified with some of what I read. I confess my ignorance.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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Everybody thinks the Moderator is like the United Church's Pope. [Killing me]

Including the clergy. Must be the "Right Rev." thing (they are the only UC ministers who use something other than "Rev.")

The Moderator gets to chair General Council and then go around and look good. A Moderator doesn't even have the power to change the lunchroom location at Church House.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I never said that. I didn't think the Moderator was any form of elite. I just thought it put this minister even more so in the public eye. Is that so terribly wrong?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I would tend to assume that writing to any public figure (powerful or not) holding an official position in a church is equivalent to asking for that person's attention, yes. And only a fool would not realize that a public officeholder's attention often results in... publicity. Which has its costs in a case like hers.

If she did indeed do so, then, I would do her the courtesy of assuming she intended any resulting publicity. And would not be surprised at the results thereof.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Early in the thread, I posted links to Greta's own writing about her beliefs and situation, and info from her church's site. Might be worth another look, IMHO, just for balance.

These are direct links to my posts, which have the links I mentioned: from page 1 , page 2, and page 3.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
... And I think I would be happy to say that the institution of the church is worthless and no one should ever serve it. The church exists only for the purpose and reign of God. (Whatever God is.)

Even on the basis of that understanding of the church - with which I don't agree - there's still no defence for remaining a minister when one ostentatiously denies the existence of any God to have a purpose or a reign.

I agree with those who have already said that her personal integrity should have instructed her to resign of her own free will long ago.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
But it's the difference in saying the Virgin birth can be understood metaphorically and saying the Virgin Birth is as of no use whatsoever. The latter puts one outside of the Christian tradition.

Dusting off my old fundie hat: a lot of Christians would say that the metaphorical understanding puts one outside of the Christian tradition--even outside Christianity, altogether.

I don't know what's true. But there are lots of ways to look at this stuff; and I'm not sure that saying your own particular view is, of course, right is any better than someone else saying the same of *their* view.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The panentheism was used to describe a sizable group!of UCC ministers. I hadn't understood and still don't, much of what that is. Though I identified with some of what I read. I confess my ignorance.

A very brief answer (there would be others here much more knowledgeable, and if you want to discuss it further another thread would probably get their attention).

Panentheism is a position along a spectrum of descriptions of how God and the physical universe relate.

At one end, deism has God being totally transcendent and not interacting with the physical universe. At the other end, pantheism says that God simply is the sum total of the physical universe. Of course, the vast majority of Christian theology sits between those extremes.

The most common would be theism - God is transcendent and distinct from the physical universe, and continuously acts to maintain and guide the physical universe.

Panentheism removes the distinction between God and the physical universe, postulating that the physical universe is part of God (but, contra pantheism, God also exists beyond the physical universe). Basically, an extreme form of sustaining the universe. It's a view that is common within Process Theology, the writing of people like Paul Tillich and Jurgen Moltmann.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The United Church prayed fervently that she would simply resign and move on, but she didn't.

Prayer moves mountains?


[Biased]

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Another example of panentheism might be the New Testament verse about God "in whom we live, and move, and have our being".

That's a pregnancy image, though I've yet to hear it preached as such. Anyway, the baby-to-be and its entire world are inside its mother--but the mother is more than that.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The United Church prayed fervently that she would simply resign and move on, but she didn't.

Prayer moves mountains?


[Biased]

Maybe they should have helped the prayer along by asking her to leave?

Someone above said she wanted the leadership to make her a martyr by sacking her. Is that because she thinks it would help her career? By this stage, thanks to the publicity, surely it wouldn't make much difference to her career whether she were sacked or not.`

Has she been offered a job by anyone else yet?

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged



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