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Source: (consider it) Thread: Do you believe in a "Fall"?
Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I mean just as I cannot believe that death invaded the cosmos because of human sin, which is very much what Paul literally says, neither do I believe that we are saved from death by the death of a sinless one.

I agree with you on both counts.

To me, though, this is a straw man. Both a literal understanding of Paul's words about death, and the idea that Christ's death fixes it, are complete misunderstandings of biblical teaching.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Luigi
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
For me Jesus came to show what God was really like and not some sacrifice obsessed capricious bully who has dominated most of ancient religion (both within and without the Judeo-Christian tradition!

Sorry, cross posted with Josesaphat's response here.

I think there's a bit of theological headspace between those two extremes.

And again, even if we discount your second 'sacrifice-obsessed' option, why would we need to know what God was really like if we weren't somehow disconnected from him in the first place?

Eutychus - I don't see why you have to have some disconnect - whether it be due to us not being entirely perfect or us not evolving quickly enough in a positive direction - another PoV I've heard, but that doesn't seem tenable to me.

What do we know with a very high level of certainty? That God has been pretty elusive throughout history. Humans have evolved barely at all over the past 100,000 years and yet all that important detail of how God expects humans to behave (the scriptures) was only available to a minute proportion. When we think Geographicaly as well as Historically then this reluctance to engage clearly and consistently with all the different people groups who have ever lived, is pretty self evident.

Indeed the Scriptures themselves seem to refer to God's elusive nature at times. Put this together with an OT which commands people to not murder but then demands at one point that 'his chosen people' commit genocide then it is hardly surprising that God isn't exactly clearly understood.

Add to this the not uncommon human desire to have a supernatural bully on their tribes side to aid them in battles, and perhaps it is not surprising that there were some misconceptions that needed to be corrected. I see no reason to use humanity's inability to be perfect, as the main reason for God's elusiveness. He just is! That seems to be the way 'he' operates.

[ 06. April 2016, 17:51: Message edited by: Luigi ]

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Joesaphat
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I mean just as I cannot believe that death invaded the cosmos because of human sin, which is very much what Paul literally says, neither do I believe that we are saved from death by the death of a sinless one.

I agree with you on both counts.

To me, though, this is a straw man. Both a literal understanding of Paul's words about death, and the idea that Christ's death fixes it, are complete misunderstandings of biblical teaching.

How? most of Christendom through the ages would disagree with you as much as it does with me.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I think that most Christians have always understood Paul to be referring to spiritual death, not physical death. Spiritual death is a state of damnation.

But what I understand Luigi, Joesaphat et al. to be saying is that if it's only moral and spiritual, there is no reason for it to have had an impact on the rest of the universe, which, even if we concede that vegetarian lions are a trifling detail, nevertheless leads to questions about what Paul means by the "whole of creation" groaning and so on.

Is it only "groaning" "spiritually", and if so what does that mean? Does it mean anything more than "metaphorically"?

And if so, where does that leave his thoughts on the resurrection? Is that only a metaphor, too?

Of course it is. What else could it be? It's HIS story, it worked for him.

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Love wins

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Green Mario
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Luigi - I am not sure we can say confidently that human beings haven't evolved or changed over the last 100,000 years.

All we can really be sure of is that the human skeleton hasn't changed much over the last 100,000 years - hence the reason why "anatomically modern" is used as a term of description.

Very significant changes/advances in human behavior happened about 50,000 years ago without there being any corresponding change that can be detected in human skeletons.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Green Mario: All we can really be sure of is that the human skeleton hasn't changed much over the last 100,000 years
Have we become taller? (Genuine question; I'm not sure.)

[ 06. April 2016, 21:09: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
Luigi - I am not sure we can say confidently that human beings haven't evolved or changed over the last 100,000 years.

All we can really be sure of is that the human skeleton hasn't changed much over the last 100,000 years - hence the reason why "anatomically modern" is used as a term of description.

Very significant changes/advances in human behavior happened about 50,000 years ago without there being any corresponding change that can be detected in human skeletons.

Those changes are highly unlikely to have been genetic.

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Love wins

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Luigi
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quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
Luigi - I am not sure we can say confidently that human beings haven't evolved or changed over the last 100,000 years.

All we can really be sure of is that the human skeleton hasn't changed much over the last 100,000 years - hence the reason why "anatomically modern" is used as a term of description.

Very significant changes/advances in human behavior happened about 50,000 years ago without there being any corresponding change that can be detected in human skeletons.

Whilst the point I made isn't drastically affected as fas I can tell - that still leaves nigh on 46000 years. However my information was based on comments by an Oxford professor of anthropology so I am curious as to what these significant changes would be especially if there is no anatomical evidence.
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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Of course it is. What else could it be? It's HIS story, it worked for him.

I'm trying to get my head around the idea of Paul's epistles being, in their entirety, his personal take on what was going on and nothing else.

I'm not saying I've tried (or failed) in that mental exercise overall, but I cannot for the life of me make sense of Christ's resurrection if it is a metaphor and not also a reality (in the sense of Christ having a continuing, autonomous existence as testified to after the resurrection). Back to the intersection of the divine and the incarnate, which seems to me to be so critical.

I don't mentally put the "Fall" in the "has to be as materially solid as the resurrection" category. However, I'm not sure about the idea of a "rise" to Christ from a position of ignorance, because Genesis 1-11 seems pretty insistent on the idea of something having been lost to humanity prior to it being found again (in Christ, as Paul would have it). I'll have to think as to whether I'm simply assuming that holds for the rest of Scripture or whether there's more evidence of it.

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Martin60
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We're creedal Eutychus. We accept the first and second person testimonies of the NT. Paul's, Peter's and Mary's. And Jesus'.

For me that's it. Their musings are human. Carriers of meaning. Metaphor. Of their time. The result of their inspiring experiences at best and in part. But not otherwise.

Except Jesus. Who knew what He was. And obviously little else. How could He? He certainly believed in the Fall that never was. How could He not? He did innately, more than any other ever could, because of the perichoretic nature of His natures, whatever they are, KNOW that He WAS the embodiment of the trajectory of the revelation of love.

Being worked out in weak, ignorant human flesh. He was the watcher of the nature of a toad trumped by the nature of a prince in His own mind. He followed the path of penal substitutionary atonement so obviously layed out for Him in OUR story. In ignorant, i.e. faithful, hope. For charity.

He lived without EVER abusing power, impossible for a human and defeated sin - helpless, innocent, feckless separation from God - and DEATH.

He is the greatest metaphor of all time in that. We still haven't the faintest idea how we will go from being redeemed yet sinners to fully redeemed, we have to go beyond mere death to find out in Him.

For now we must make up better and better and kinder stories, on the trajectory of His and Paul's on Him and more.

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Love wins

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
To me, though, this is a straw man. Both a literal understanding of Paul's words about death, and the idea that Christ's death fixes it, are complete misunderstandings of biblical teaching.

How? most of Christendom through the ages would disagree with you as much as it does with me.
Yes, they probably would. I think that you see the problems with the majority view.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I think that most Christians have always understood Paul to be referring to spiritual death, not physical death. Spiritual death is a state of damnation.

But what I understand Luigi, Joesaphat et al. to be saying is that if it's only moral and spiritual, there is no reason for it to have had an impact on the rest of the universe, which, even if we concede that vegetarian lions are a trifling detail, nevertheless leads to questions about what Paul means by the "whole of creation" groaning and so on.

Is it only "groaning" "spiritually", and if so what does that mean? Does it mean anything more than "metaphorically"?

And if so, where does that leave his thoughts on the resurrection? Is that only a metaphor, too?

Of course it is. What else could it be? It's HIS story, it worked for him.
The resurrection is not only a metaphor. It really happened.

That is a completely different thing than whether Paul means physical death or spiritual death being introduced at the fall. The concept of the fall is introduced in the story of Adam and Eve in Eden. This is a story full of magic talking animals and impossible events that most people understand as an ancient metaphorical tale.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The concept of the fall is introduced in the story of Adam and Eve in Eden. This is a story full of magic talking animals and impossible events that most people understand as an ancient metaphorical tale.

In this scenario, what is the "fall" part a metaphor for? Adam and Eve are (irrespective of whether they were an actual couple, in my view) a metaphor for our origins. Can you sustain a metaphorical explanation of the "fall" that isn't also to do with our origins?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Curiosity killed ...

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Even if the implication of the Fall is that it's part of the origins of the human condition, does that mean that it's binding for ever more? We know that the first creation narrative isn't accurate (the order of creation for the earth, stars, suns, waters is jumbled) but that doesn't stop it from being a story of how the Earth was created. Can't we say that the story telling the origins of humans noted that human traits weren't always wonderful and produced a story to explain why, but we know now that those traits are innate?

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Even if the implication of the Fall is that it's part of the origins of the human condition, does that mean that it's binding for ever more?

I don't feel very wedded to the idea of inherited guilt; one of the reasons I keep putting scare quotes round "Fall", I think.
quote:
Can't we say that the story telling the origins of humans noted that human traits weren't always wonderful and produced a story to explain why, but we know now that those traits are innate?
If the end result in both cases is the conclusion that humanity needs some sort of metamorphosis from its present condition to become truly and fully "wonderful", then why not?

If the end result of describing them as "innate" is to say that how we are, warts and all, is as good as it's ever going to get, not so sure.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Curiosity killed ...

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But isn't that the whole point of the Christian faith? That we believe in the redemptive power of God*, as incarnated in Jesus Christ, to make us anew. And that we should work to the coming of His Kingdom† (that striving for perfection)?

* in which ever deist, theist, panentheist form
† Whether on Earth now, or Heaven is another moot point

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
But isn't that the whole point of the Christian faith? That we believe in the redemptive power of God*, as incarnated in Jesus Christ, to make us anew. And that we should work to the coming of His Kingdom† (that striving for perfection)?

Here's me following your playbook, striving not to use 'God', and now this [Biased]

I can agree with all that, very much so. Where this debate started was in a Dead Horse discussion, and an argument about the extent to which different aspects of our our current and different sexualities are to do with our "fallenness", calling for both accommodation and inclusion, and ultimate transformation and redemption in that Kingdom.

(That aspect of the discussion belongs, of course, in Dead Horses!)

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Green Mario
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Luigi - I agree it doesn't impact your point much (if people have stayed the same for the last 50,000 years) except to say that the lack of development/change in what people are like can't necessarily be inferred from lack of changes in their skeletons. Perhaps there have been more recent changes to?

Wikipedia source about hunan evolution below:

Behavioral modernity

Le Roc - I think the evidence is that people got shorter when agriculture first came on the scene (hunter/gatherers were taller) as agriculture allows people to have enough calories to survive without a balanced enough diet for good growth and then have become taller again in very recent times. I have heard discussion before about how Genesis contains cultural rememberings of better times when humans were hunter/gatherers and foraged in the "garden" rather than growing their own food by the sweat of their brow. Not sure I subscribe to this (it just be a form of the myth of the "noble savage")but its an interesting idea.

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Curiosity killed ...

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But, from the BBC story above, we have so many more harmful ways of being fallen - psychopathy, Machiavellianism, sadism and the last of the Dark Tetrad, (that I can't remember and can't look up while posting on my phone) all innate, not forgetting what we are doing to the Planet - to worry about behaviours which most people would agree are fruitful.

(It amuses me that my phone recognises Machiavellianism, when my laptop does not.)

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
But, from the BBC story above, we have so many more harmful ways of being fallen - psychopathy, Machiavellianism, sadism and the last of the Dark Tetrad, (that I can't remember and can't look up while posting on my phone) all innate, not forgetting what we are doing to the Planet - to worry about behaviours which most people would agree are fruitful.

Oh, I couldn't agree more that in many ways, our priorities can be all skew-whiff.

It just so happens that the DH issue is the one which prompted a comparison of a belief in some kind of "fall" to belief in Jesus riding a dinosaur, which is where I felt I needed a sanity check in Purgatory. I'm not sure what the findings suggest in that regard [Biased]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Luigi
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Thanks for the link Green Mario - very interesting.

I suppose I was looking for a date when most would agree we were fully human - some would go back even further I know.

I guess the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution can also be put down as signicant shifts in behaviour. Maybe it's a shame Paul wasn't born a great deal later as his theology would no doubt have been very different.

By the by, it is a shame no one responded to Le Roc's post on page one. A good post.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Eutychus: belief in Jesus riding a dinosaur
I'm sure that the Second Person of the Trinity time travels to the Cretaceous period every now and again, just for fun (I would).


(@Luigi: thank you.)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Doone
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quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:


By the by, it is a shame no one responded to Le Roc's post on page one. A good post.

I agree Luigi, I'm still mulling that one over - lots of implications to follow through.
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Martin60
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I completely agree with it. But not the one above. There is no past or future either. There again I do have an irony by-pass.

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Love wins

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In this scenario, what is the "fall" part a metaphor for? Adam and Eve are (irrespective of whether they were an actual couple, in my view) a metaphor for our origins. Can you sustain a metaphorical explanation of the "fall" that isn't also to do with our origins?

Yes, I think that you can sustain a metaphorical explanation of "the fall" that doesn't also mean that God did not create us. If that is what you mean.

As I see it, God did create us, but the description in Genesis is a metaphor rather than a literal description of how He did it. Life developed over a long period of time on this planet, just as science describes it. The six days of creation are a metaphor for the way that God turned our primitive ancestors into humans, endowing them with an eternal soul.

The description of the fall is a metaphor for the way that humanity chose to follow its own path rather than depend overtly on God. This is the meaning behind the serpent, fruit, trees, etc. Over time they gradually exhibited a confidence in and preference for the information they received through their sense in favor of the less tangible inner dictates of God.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is no past or future either.

So how do you understand the concept of hope, Martin?

[ 07. April 2016, 11:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I think that you can sustain a metaphorical explanation of "the fall" that doesn't also mean that God did not create us. If that is what you mean.

Sorry, no, that's not what I meant. What I meant was much closer to what you put here, emphasis mine:
quote:
The descriptin of the fall is a metaphor for the way that humanity chose to follow its own path rather than depend overtly on God. This is the meaning behind the serpent, fruit, trees, etc. Over time they gradually exhibited a confidence in and preference for the information they received through their sense in favor of the less tangible inner dictates of God.
What this suggests to me is that you accept the idea of human origins, (in the past, not in Martin60's all-pervading present; or, as Jesus has it, in the beginning) in a state in which they did not "follow their own path" and did "depend overtly on God".

(Irrespective of whether there was a tree, fruit, fig-leaves, vegetarian lions, or a light-sabre-wielding angel at the gates of Eden...)

...that view to me has the advantage of allowing for Paul was not simply making it up as he went along, and does I think lead to a rather different view of how we see the human condition today compared to one in which all we are doing, or called to do, is "rise" all the time rather than be "restored". And it's nice and linear [Smile]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
And it's nice and linear [Smile]

The more linear the better. [Cool]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Martin60
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As well as I understand the concept of now in Love Eutychus.

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Love wins

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Eutychus: belief in Jesus riding a dinosaur
I'm sure that the Second Person of the Trinity time travels to the Cretaceous period every now and again, just for fun (I would).


(@Luigi: thank you.)

LeRoc, I need to steal your brain. It comes up with such charming ideas.
[Yipee] [Yipee] [Yipee]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As well as I understand the concept of now in Love Eutychus.

Beautifully dodged.

Do you not think hope requires the prospect of something better in the future?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
hunan evolution

In regards to the culture or cuisine? [Biased]

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As well as I understand the concept of now in Love Eutychus.

Beautifully dodged.

Do you not think hope requires the prospect of something better in the future?

[Smile] I am in sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life, through our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall change our vile body, that it may be like unto his glorious body, according to the mighty working, whereby he is able to subdue all things to himself.

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Love wins

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
a rather different view of how we see the human condition today compared to one in which all we are doing, or called to do, is "rise" all the time rather than be "restored". And it's nice and linear [Smile]

Rising all the time at a pretty constant rate is linear. Rising at an ever-increasing rate is (loosely speaking) exponential. Turning around and going back to where we once were - the option that appeals to the conservative in us - is another mathematical form entirely.

If we take seriously the idea that humans evolved from animals, then yes, something was lost along the way. Innocence. We are divided. We act, and at the same time self-consciously watch ourselves acting. We compromise. We regret what we didn't know at the time.

And going back to bring animals, or even going back to childhood, to before we first deliberately planned to do something that we knew that others would disapprove of, would be self-mutilation. The only way to improve is forward.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As well as I understand the concept of now in Love Eutychus.

Beautifully dodged.

Do you not think hope requires the prospect of something better in the future?

[Smile] I am in sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life, through our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall change our vile body, that it may be like unto his glorious body, according to the mighty working, whereby he is able to subdue all things to himself.
Affirmation of a liturgical statement doesn't answer my question about whether you believe hope requires the prospect of something in the future (and therefore, by implication, a less-than-perfect past).

[ 15. August 2016, 15:09: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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Oh aye, hope is in better. Ultimately better for humans being transcendent deconstruction and reconstruction of our feelings and thoughts post mortem. Some of us experience a taste of that now: time heals and I can testify that a healed God narrative helps. EVERYBODY will get that in the resurrection.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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To refresh your memory, this question came up because we were discussing whether the narrative of Scripture has a linear component: a "things used to be better than they are now" time, a "things as they then were before Christ" time, and our present "now and not yet" time, prior to "all things being made new" after the eschaton.

Our various understandings of what the "fall" might or not might mean have been done to death above, but suffice it to say now that from where I'm typing, the concept of hope is bound up in that linearity, suggesting not only a future, but also, by extension, a past.

As far as I can see you still haven't explained hope in any terms other than a linear narrative that progresses through history - a linearity which you seem to reject.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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I utterly reject any made up golden age, that there was a mythical 'better' time. 50,000 years ago we learned to talk and things got more complex. We 'lost', 'fell' from, our a-historical, hunter-gatherer 'innocence'. Innocence in all our oral, anal, phallic, latency, genital psychosexual development as a species: We've always been dirty monkeys. Complex is better. With more opportunities for worse. Universes evolve toward better. With accompanying worse. We became nomads, herders, shepherds. Then smiths, potters, farmers. Land owners. You know the story. Bash the bones enough and you get in to orbit.

And yeah, of course the century old Freudian STORY doesn't hold up, I'm using it as a metaphor for development because it's more colourful ... dirty. Before it could speak, humanity would have been no less unspeakable in its general behaviour than it is on a bad day in Raqqa. More so. Life was nasty, brutish and short. We've become ... better. With a accompanying worse.

And it certainly isn't linear. The noösphere is expanding exponentially.

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Love wins

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Galloping Granny
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God made Adam and Eve in His own image, right? So if they were curious and adventurous God must have had those characteristics.
So He should have known that they'd investigate the fruit, and grow in maturity, and so on.
I've written my version of the story, in which they follow the river, make their way through the less-than-hospitable countryside, discover cold, pain and hunger, and learn to cope with adversity, as they mature as individuals.
I think there's a dog in the story, that snuggles up to keep them warm at night and shows them how to kill for food.
If I had a website I'd post a link, but if anyone's really curious they can pm me.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I utterly reject any made up golden age, that there was a mythical 'better' time. 50,000 years ago we learned to talk and things got more complex. We 'lost', 'fell' from, our a-historical, hunter-gatherer 'innocence'. (...) Complex is better. With more opportunities for worse.

In your analysis there still seems to be room for a "worse" to have emerged that is worth being "saved" from.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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PaulTH*
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An evangelical type once told me that, for a believing Christian, creationism is the only position which makes sense. Adam fell and Christ rose undoing, at least in potential, the death Adam brought upon us. While I regard creationism as completely absurd, there is logic in the view that it's the only way to make the Bible, Old and New Testaments together, into a coherent story. So someone who isn't a creationist has to figure out what the creation narrative is really about.

We all have our own ways of doing this, and don't always come up with the same conclusions. My take on it would be this: No one would accuse a lion of sinning when it tears a defenceless zebra apart and eats it. It is merely following its God given instincts. At some point in human evolution, our species developed the imagination to stand outside itself and imagine the sufferings of others. From then, every action had a moral component. Does what I do cause suffering to others? Where we fail to live up to our highest ideals, we are fallen creatures. But it's more a failure to rise to what we should be, than a fall from a previously perfect state, which has never occurred in nature.

So what Jesus does is show us what it's like to rise to what we ought to be, obedient to God and a servant of all, completely free of slavery to self. This is the aim and hopefully the destiny of all sentient beings in our journey Godwards.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Martin60
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Our need for transcendent salvation has never changed. No matter how emotionally deconstructed and reconstructed, how healed we become as individuals, groups, a species, no matter how socially just, we die. Where we'll find that we're all, heading up to a trillion of us, at the same level. From where the increase of His government will have no end.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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So in your scheme of things, at what point did the notion of death become so absurd, become, in CS Lewis' words, the "eternal Surd in the universal mathematic"?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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From the moment of Jesus' first public pronouncement of the Kingdom.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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Why?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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Jesus initiated living in the light of the Kingdom of eternal life in paradise as if it were full and present reality. Repentance in other words. We are to turn to its light and make our way to it, IN it, which can only be done in loving others. Why do we have to discuss this after two thousand years?

We have eternal life NOW. As PROVED by, in Jesus. The ONLY living, proved, embodied, claim.

[ 16. August 2016, 13:43: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Jesus initiated living in the light of the Kingdom of eternal life in paradise as if it were full and present reality. Repentance in other words. We are to turn to its light and make our way to it, IN it, which can only be done in loving others. Why do we have to discuss this after two thousand years?

Martin, we're in total agreement this time!

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Jesus initiated living in the light of the Kingdom of eternal life in paradise as if it were full and present reality. Repentance in other words. We are to turn to its light and make our way to it, IN it, which can only be done in loving others. Why do we have to discuss this after two thousand years?

We have eternal life NOW. As PROVED by, in Jesus. The ONLY living, proved, embodied, claim.

So just to get this clear, death wasn't absurd before that?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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It was all there was.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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Martin I try, I really do try to understand you, but if there's any enlightenment to be had from what you're saying, you're going to have to be a lot clearer in saying it (at least as far as I'm concerned).

To my mind being elliptical is a close neighbour to esoterism. If your views are that complicated to explain/understand I begin to doubt that they are really Good News.

Is that the sort of language you use with the down-and-outs you're always telling us you rejoice in frequenting? Because it certainly wouldn't cut any mustard with the down-and-outs I frequent - and who I suspect are preceding me into the Kingdom of God.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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