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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Do you believe in a "Fall"? (Page 6)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Do you believe in a "Fall"?
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Joesaphat, I hope you're sitting down, because I'm pretty sure I've heard this at least once before, too.

(One of the reasons there is basically never a Jewish religious service in my prison is because there are never ten Jewish inmates...)

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Hmmmmm. Been composing a deconstruction of Romans 7. Suffice it to say I find it VERY easy to resonate with Paul. Always have. Becoming a raving postmodern liberal CANNOT change that. Sin, rebellion, rabid ruinous lust are REAL. Are human. Mine. We are at our most obviously violent when two years old. My earliest memory is of just having bitten my baby sister at that age. I don't remember biting her. But HAVING bitten her and the FEAR and guilt of it all. We just get subtler after that.

The Fall is the human condition. Exacerbated by social evolution: greater and greater opportunity for evil with less and less excuse.

And The Fall is personal. MY human condition. It has NOTHING to do with myths. I don't need ANY myths, including the nonetheless troubling ones of supernatural sentient evil beings, of a fallen angelic realm, to BE guilty. To explain my sin.

The shock of the Christ event, conception-life-death-resurrection DOES cut through that for me. Is my way out of CONCURRENT meaningless unfulfillable desire, of brokenness, of loss, of suffering, of feckless evil ending in oblivion. Gives me hope. By the Spirit I accept, but have no idea how or why me.

I'd rather Jesus HADN'T died, hadn't HAD to die, not to satisfy some arbitrary divine justice that WE impute and He HAD to believe, but to get my attention, but nothing else would.

My utter disbelief of a mythical fall, of an impossible failure to rise (Fulke Greville's 'Created sick, commanded to be sound' comes to mind) doesn't mean I'm not a fallen, failed (successful?!), miserable sinner saved by Jesus' blood.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm intrigued too.

Nick Tamen above: I've frequently heard Jesus's "where two or three are gathered" statement described as his take/modification of the Jewish minyan.

I've never heard this, but it fits Jesus' Jewishness far better than Greco-Roman literalism-mysticism.

Martin, I'm not sure why you'd suspect there was no mysticism involved in Jesus's Jewishness. Judaism had its own beliefs about God's presence in the temple, in the gathered congregation and elsewhere.

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And The Fall is personal. MY human condition. It has NOTHING to do with myths. I don't need ANY myths . . . .

But the human condition, individual and universal, is precisely precisely the matter of myth. The issue too often is that people confuse a myth bring factual with a myth bring true.

[ 23. August 2016, 22:27: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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Sorry for the double "precisely."

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Joesaphat
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# 18493

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Joesaphat, I hope you're sitting down, because I'm pretty sure I've heard this at least once before, too.

(One of the reasons there is basically never a Jewish religious service in my prison is because there are never ten Jewish inmates...)

Oh no, I'd be delighted. I like not to feel like an oddball. Even though the passage was probably devised to allow early Christians to exist and worship apart from the mainstream. I've never ever read it anywhere, however. God, I hope N T Wright did not write it, I could not bear to agree with Wright.
[Waterworks]

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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.

Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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You may be reassured to know I have never read more than a few pages of the guy.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Joesaphat
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# 18493

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You may be reassured to know I have never read more than a few pages of the guy.

I think he writes so much, so fast so as to make it impossible for anyone to disagree with him. You cannot say anything he has not said or denied somewhere on page 842 of his 26th book.

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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.

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Martin60
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# 368

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Aye Nick, the narrative is full of weirdness, but that's a different category to running away with a figure of speech.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joesaphat
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# 18493

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In the Daily Mail (don't ask, it's a weird voyeuristic addiction) this morning there is a video of a python slowly suffocating, eating then regurgitating an antelope. God's perfect plan. Glory!

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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.

Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I was hoping the debate had moved beyond "vegetarian lions"... [Roll Eyes]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged



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