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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sin and salvation
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Le Roc
I made notes while reading through your posts, as follows:
As far as logic is concerned, I am not here to win any prizes for logic, but to enjoy interesting discussion, at the end of which we can all look forward to the next one.
Re the word 'evil' - the possibility of new words to replace 'sin' and 'evil' is remote - we are stuck with the language we have.
Yes, animals do what they have evolved to do, as do all species of apes, their common ancestor did and all previous ancestors. Our human species was lucky enough to evolve with language which enables us to consider our actions and label them according to which were evidently for the good of the group or not..
No, I did not say I 'believe in Science’, I said I prefer the scientific views or words to that effect. Can you cite a post where I have said I 'believe in Science'?
, and whatever Theory is put forward is always open to challenge, isn't it. I agree that
Animal natural, evolved behaviours are not labelled moral or immoral, and if we, as a human species, were being obvserved by some other, more intellectually advanced species, then our behaviour would be
Similarly categorised. With language, though, we can consider its morality.
I'm afraid I cannot do anything about whether you consider my posts and opinions to be just not good enough!! However, if you can suggest another hobby/activity I could take up instead ... ... well, I'd probably still post here anyway!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
IMHO the question is whether you are interested in our answers for any other reason than that it gives you a platform for telling us all how unscientific we are.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
Hello Miss SusanDoris!
Thank you for the polite response to my thoughts.
<snkp>
So that's just me, and I just wanted to share this, for what it's worth.
Cheers!
AFF
Thank you for a very interesting post.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
IMHO the question is whether you are interested in our answers for any other reason than that it gives you a platform for telling us all how unscientific we are.
Well,I cannot stop you attributing to me motives that are not mine. At 80, I certainly do not want to waste any of my remaining time on any other than friendly exchanges with all the people I meet whether we agree or not.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You've won, SusanDoris.
[ 06. April 2016, 07:16: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
LC--
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
IMHO the question is whether you are interested in our answers for any other reason than that it gives you a platform for telling us all how unscientific we are.
FWIW: ISTM, she asks about our views, often comments on them, and mentions her own--which happen to be atheistic, humanistic, and non-supernatural(istic). How is that different than someone who's Lutheran, RC, Orthodoxen, Baptist, etc. saying what their views are? (And you, LC, have sometimes been very upset when you felt Shipmates weren't respecting you and your views--so upset you vented in Hell. You might remember our conversation there.)
We've had Shipmates, particularly some Christians, who've been rampantly and loudly antagonistic to anyone else's beliefs, and gone on at length, over and over, and...thoroughly annoyed and dismayed a good many of us.
Susan doesn't dump all that on us. She asks questions, mentions her beliefs (sometimes in a detailed way, sometimes not), and displays wit. IMHO, she's a breath of fresh air.
It seems there's a double standard. Is it because she's an atheist and humanist, and not at all interested in taking up religion of any kind?
And it's not just Susan who gets this reaction. I've seen other atheist Shipmates asked why in the world they hung out here--sometimes, none too nicely.
If you somehow hope she's going to find Jesus, I respectfully submit that the approaches people have been using, on this thread and elsewhere, would drive a lot of people away and be very counter-productive.
Susan's got a path that works very well for her, and she's explained that in the past. Lots of Shipmates just post their comments and beliefs, and then back away. They usually don't meet this kind of resistance, IME. Why not just consider her one of them, and scroll on by?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You've won, SusanDoris.
I'd rather call it a draw!! everybody wins!
Golden Key
Many thanks for the views and kind words expressed in your post to LC.]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
LeRoc--
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Suppose that I as a Christian would have a discussion with Hindus that went like this.
LeRoc: Why do Hindus do X?
Several Hindus: We do X because …
LeRoc: That's not valid because your gods don't exist.
We've had plenty of those conversations on the Ship, though generally between people of varying Christian traditions.
quote:
Do you think that a meaningful inter-religious dialogue has taken place here?
Perhaps not. But a good many Purg posts don't have meaningful [inter-]religious dialogue, either.
quote:
Wouldn't it be better if I answered something of the form "I don't believe in your gods of course, but I think that elements xyz in your answer are insightful because … / I believe that elements xyz are positive because … / I learned xyz from your answer".
ISTM that *could* be said in a very condescending manner ("Of course, I don't believe in your little superstitions, but...."); earnestly, as in trying to find an entry for witnessing; or in a respectful way. I don't know which way you intend it.
IIRC, many of your posts aren't like what you suggested. I like a good many of your posts, LeRoc, especially moments of humor and info on how things are in various places you live. But I don't generally think of you as doing that kind of religious inquiry. Have I missed it??
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
quote:
To me, it would make sense to take the fact that Hindus believe in their gods as a hypothetical given for a while, to see what else I could learn from them, instead of only being interested in pushing my agenda "I want to assert that your gods don't exist".
Taking it as "a hypothetical given for a while"" sounds like you [gen.] are preparing to either tell them they're wrong, or tell them they're wrong and witness to them.
Susan does, periodically, mention various things she's learned about various Shipmates' ideas. IMHO, she's also honest about her own beliefs.
Do you want her to say something is positive if she doesn't think it is? She's been Christian. It was a bad experience for her, and it's been a great relief to get away from it. (And yes, she's said this in Purg.)
quote:
I'd even say that this is a rather scientific approach.
ISTM that when she posts in detail, you don't like what she has to say, and think she has an agenda. And when she posts briefly, you don't like what she has to say, *and* you feel she should've engaged more.
ISTM that if her discussion, comments, and debate aren't in your preferred style, there are many Shipmates whose posts are and you engage with them.
I don't mean this as a personal attack, LeRoc. But you keep coming back to your dissatisfaction with Susan and/or her posts, in the midst of your posts in Purg, and I think it needs to be addressed.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: As far as logic is concerned, I am not here to win any prizes for logic, but to enjoy interesting discussion, at the end of which we can all look forward to the next one.
I am not expecting you to have perfect logical abilities. I don't have those either. But it's very difficult to have a discussion when one of the participants doesn't use logic to string her arguments together.
The things we say in Purgatory have logical consequences. Things become interesting if people point out these consequences to us, and we're prepared to face them.
quote:
SusanDoris: Re the word 'evil' - the possibility of new words to replace 'sin' and 'evil' is remote - we are stuck with the language we have.
First, you keep treating 'evil' as a religious word. You're right in saying that 'sin' is a religious word, but I'm not convinced that it is the case with 'evil'. Christians and atheists both agree that what Hitler did was evil. In fact, a lot of secular books have been written about this.
And once again, I don't see what the problem is here. If atheists feel that a different word is needed that carries some of the meanings of 'sin' or 'evil' but without the religious associations, they're free to come up with one. They can either use an existing word or come up with a new one. No-one is stopping them.
In fact, I'm serious here. If you want to introduce a new word in your discussions on the Ship, just go ahead and define it; as a Christian, I'll be happy to accept your definition. The only caveat is that I'll draw logical conclusions from your words.
quote:
SusanDoris: Yes, animals do what they have evolved to do, as do all species of apes, their common ancestor did and all previous ancestors. Our human species was lucky enough to evolve with language which enables us to consider our actions and label them according to which were evidently for the good of the group or not..
Basically, this thread is about the question "what is the origin of morality?"
In your opening post, you stated that you reject religion as a basis for morality. Yes, I get that. You're an atheist, so of course you will reject this basis. Really, that's fine by me.
But of course, this poses the question "so, where do you think morality comes from?" In this post, you've tried to answer this for the first time on this thread, and I give you kudos for that.
Basically, your answer comes down to "morality exists because humans evolved with language, and language has words that describe morality".
I'm sorry, but that won't do. That's not even an explanation. Science won't accept "X exists because humans evolved with language, and language has words that describe X" as an explanation for any other subject X, so I don't see why we should accept it as an explanation here.
Really, if you want to base morality on language, you're on very shaky ground.
In fact, there are some rather funny logical consequences of what you're saying here. It will probably be useless to point those out to you, but I'll do so anyway.
The first one is: I could use your exact same reasoning to 'prove' the existence of God. Go ahead an try it. (Well, I find this funny.)
The second one is: you are saying rather contradictory things about the relationship between morality and language on this thread. On the one hand you say that language explains morality. On the other hand you say that we should change our language because it doesn't explain morality. Which one is it?
quote:
SusanDoris: and whatever Theory is put forward is always open to challenge, isn't it.
This requires that we're prepared to face the logical consequences of our theories.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Golden Key: We've had plenty of those conversations on the Ship, though generally between people of varying Christian traditions.
First of all, you're using what I call the Classic Schoolyard Defence™ here. "Miss, they are doing it too!" I don't think that is going to work very well with me.
Secondly, I'm reacting to a very specific pattern here. Sure, there have been rather harsh and sometimes stupid discussions between 'conservatives' and 'liberals' on the Ship, but what I am talking about is this:
Conservative Shipmate: Why do liberals do/believe X?
LeRoc: Well, I do/believe X because …
Conservative Shipmate: That's not valid because it's not conservative.
I'm not sure if I've been involved in this particular pattern before. And I would certainly call this Shipmate out on this.
But basically, what you're saying is that this pattern is fine, and that this is a meaningful way of discussing things?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Le Roc
When I wrote the OP, I was thinking only in fairly restricted terms of definitions of sin and salvation. People's opinions vary widely, of course, so topics tend to wander off in different directions, but that is always interesting, and we are only sent to sit on the naughty step if we wander way too far, I think!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: When I wrote the OP, I was thinking only in fairly restricted terms of definitions of sin and salvation.
Alright, let me try to reconstruct what you're trying to do on this topic then. What you appear to be saying is: "There are words 'sin' and 'salvation', and in a restricted sense they have religious meanings. I don't accept these religious meanings." Is that the point you're trying to make? Because my answer to that would be "duh, okay".
You ended your opening post with "I would be most interested to hear people's views on definitions and implications of the words sin and salvation." My answer to your question that you asked here is that we can only discuss the definitions and implications of these words if we relate them to questions about the origin of morality.
And even if atheists would find a word where they stripped away the religious associations of 'sin' and 'evil', this word would still relate to questions about the origin of morality.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Alright, let me try to reconstruct what you're trying to do on this topic then.
But, you see, I'm not 'trying to do' anything, other than take part in stimulating - never banal - conversations! I read here, and on three other forums, I listen to the radio, and perhaps I notice something that makes me think, 'I wonder what the SoF members would say about this,' and write an OP. From then on, I have no control, let alone a desire to control, the consequent responses.I know I shall have the pleasure of reading them.
Whether responding on other threads or, occasionally, starting one, I do not have an over-riding 'point' to make, or an agenda to follow, particularly at my age the discussion, whatever it turns out to be, is the thing.
morality.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: I notice something that makes me think, 'I wonder what the SoF members would say about this,' and write an OP.
Okay. My interpretation of the rules of Purgatory is that whenever you open a thread here, you should do this with the objective of starting a discussion about that topic, not just as a request for opinions. But I'll leave that up to the Hosts.
You also said earlier "whatever Theory is put forward is always open to challenge, isn't it." I challenged a couple of your points, let me single out two of those here:- You said that when it comes to questions of morality, you prefer scientists' views. I challenged that, saying that Science cannot give us moral answers.
- As an explanation for morality, you gave the human evolutionary capacity for language. I challenged that, saying that language cannot explain morality.
You're free to decide whether or not you want to take up these challenges of course.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Golden Key: We've had plenty of those conversations on the Ship, though generally between people of varying Christian traditions.
First of all, you're using what I call the Classic Schoolyard Defence™ here. "Miss, they are doing it too!" I don't think that is going to work very well with me.
Secondly, I'm reacting to a very specific pattern here. Sure, there have been rather harsh and sometimes stupid discussions between 'conservatives' and 'liberals' on the Ship, but what I am talking about is this:
Conservative Shipmate: Why do liberals do/believe X?
LeRoc: Well, I do/believe X because …
Conservative Shipmate: That's not valid because it's not conservative.
I'm not sure if I've been involved in this particular pattern before. And I would certainly call this Shipmate out on this.
But basically, what you're saying is that this pattern is fine, and that this is a meaningful way of discussing things?
--Re schoolyard defense: The rules should be fair to everyone. You've repeatedly called Susan out for things other Shipmates do all the time, but you sound as if she's the only one. TBH, your attitude toward her seems obsessive. So why the obsession?
--Re patterns and your sample conversation: Those arguments take place *all the time* on the Ship. It's something people do.
--Re what I'm saying: I'm not necessarily saying it's fine; but Shipmates do it all the time, and people do it all the time in RL. As to meaningful discussion: A good many posts aren't, even in Purg, not in the way you seem to mean. And no one engages with every other person's post on a thread. They pick and choose the person and the post to which they'll respond.
I've fallen asleep several times while writing this, so I'm going to sign off. But ISTM that your Purg posts demand things from Susan that you don't demand from other posters.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
fwiw, I'm with LeRoc here, and don't think he's singling out SusanDoris unfairly. I think LeRoc fairly characterized her style of posting-- seemingly setting up an honest question but then slamming down/dismissing when her question is answered honestly. That really is different than what we see/expect from other Shippies when debating folks with different pov. And LeRoc is not the only one who raised that objection-- in fact, it was raised on the first page by some who were worried about exactly what happened transpiring. I was reluctant to weigh in based on this pattern from other conversations. So I don't think SusanDoris is being held to any different standard than the rest of us.
otoh, as we've gotten to know SusanDoris better, I think what appears to be a bait-and-switch rhetorical trap is probably not that at all. I suspect SusanDoris is going into these conversations with the best of intentions, really wanting to understand better-- but is at time overwhelmed or stymied by what appears to her to be an illogical conclusion she's struggling to comprehend. That comes across as dismissive and disingenuous but may in fact be just the difficulties of communicating across two very different worldviews. And of course SusanDoris is outnumbered here (tho certainly not alone in her disbelief) which can't help matters. Add to that the logistic difficulties managing her visual impairment and I'm starting to soften in the way I'm reading/hearing her comments that can seem abrasive.
SusanDoris, I'm speaking for you here, when obviously you can speak for yourself, so please feel free (not that you need my permission) to correct the above. Does it sound to you like I'm fairly assessing the situation? Can you see why we sometimes feel tricked or set up by your questions? And/or is there something I/we are missing from your side of the conversation that would help us understand why these missteps keep happening?
This is becoming personal, so the hosts may come along soon to move this to hell, but my hope is we can resolve this amicably and graciously without having to venture down to the nether-regions.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: and whatever Theory is put forward is always open to challenge, isn't it.
Rote dismissal is not challenge.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
SusanDoris: and whatever Theory is put forward is always open to challenge, isn't it.
Rote dismissal is not challenge.
This is it.
Golden Key, I'm afraid you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick as far as what's bugging me. It's not her atheism, her happiness in that position, her unwillingness to change (aren't we all?) or any of that stuff. In fact, I'm fairly sure you missed my defense of SusanDoris on another thread a while back on just those grounds. I want a varied Ship to delight in, and SusanDoris is a definite part of that variety.
No, what's bugging me is one very specific posting pattern that leads me to feel like a performing seal whose trainer is holding a fish out. This is the pattern.
SusanDoris posts a great subject for discussion, waits politely while everyone offers thoughtful positions, and then blows the whole thing off en masse as unscientific. End of discussion.
At that point either the thread degenerates into a frustration patch, as this one is doing, or various posters attempt to dig in to what precisely is meant by "scientific", which she evades, and the whole thing goes kaput. Another wasted thread.
Here is what I would LIKE to see happen. SusanDoris makes her OP as she always does, waits politely to gather in opinions as usual, but then responds by picking out at least one interesting point out of at least one post in the lot and replies to it in detail--whether that's to say "That sounds like raving lunacy, and here's why..." or perhaps "Would you tell me more about X, that sounds interesting. In particular I'm wondering about Y..." or even "Poster So-and-so, how do you reconcile your position A with B or C?"
Any of those responses would allow the discussion to keep going and develop, instead of it suddenly hitting a block wall at speed.
Or to use my metaphor above, the seal leaps out of the water, the trainer hastily snatches the fish away, and the seal thinks, "Why in hell did I even bother to try, I knew it would end that way just as it usually does."
You suggest I just scroll on by. In truth, that's what I usually do with a poster who repeats the same rhetorical trick again and again and again. But I haven't quite given up on SusanDoris, because she has a lot of interesting stuff to contribute IMHO, if she will only do so, and not keep repeating the fish-with-a-seal pattern again and again.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Golden Key: You've repeatedly called Susan out for things other Shipmates do all the time, but you sound as if she's the only one. TBH, your attitude toward her seems obsessive. So why the obsession?
You're repeatedly saying that other Shipmates show this particular discussion pattern all the time. I don't believe you. You'll need to show proof of this.
FWIW, I'm not obsessed with SusanDoris, but I am obsessed with discussion patterns. I don't know; I just find those interesting. I have analysed other Shipmates' discussion patterns before, I've particularly done this rather extensively with IngoB.
(BTW, one thing I'm doing is trying invent names for discussion patterns. I've tried to look it up; there is an established body of names for logical fallacies, but there doesn't seem to be a similar one for these more subtle patterns. So I try to come up with names of my own. Fish With A Seal is an excellent name for this particular pattern, and all credit for it goes to Lamb Chopped.)
[ 06. April 2016, 17:34: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
The following is very long - hope that's okay! I hope there are no typos.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
You've repeatedly called Susan out for things other Shipmates do all the time, but you sound as if she's the only one. TBH, your attitude toward her seems obsessive. So why the obsession?
I have an idea or two about that, but they are irrelevant in a discussion, I feel. I respond to posts, confining myself to the contents of the post, although obviously over the years, one builds up a picture of the writer. As you say: quote:
They pick and choose the person and the post to which they'll respond.
I am quite a simple, straightforward person actually, and have no aims or ambitions to win arguments, no ulterior motives to undermine anyone's self-esteem. As I have mentioned, I had that done to me in my twenties and would never knowingly do it to anyone else.
quote:
I've fallen asleep several times while writing this, so I'm going to sign off. But ISTM that your Purg posts demand things from Susan that you don't demand from other posters.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Ah, yes! I blame it on my age!!
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fwiw, I'm with LeRoc here, and don't think he's singling out SusanDoris unfairly. I think LeRoc fairly characterized her style of posting-- seemingly setting up an honest question but then slamming down/dismissing when her question is answered honestly.
I have always assumed that posters are putting their views on an equal basis, i.e. as adults, who love to engage in discussing things and do not lose any sleep when it either ends without any definite conclusion, or just tails off, to be returned to, probably in a different form, at some later date. I do not ever consider posting here as some kind of one-upmanship, or a battle of some sort.
quote:
That really is different than what we see/expect from other Shippies when debating folks with different pov.
I have always supposed there are as many different expectations of what others should say, or how, as there are SoF members. quote:
So I don't think SusanDoris is being held to any different standard than the rest of us.
otoh, as we've gotten to know SusanDoris better, I think what appears to be a bait-and-switch rhetorical trap is probably not that at all.
Thank you, I really appreciate your saying that, as the communication with interesting people is such a pleasure in life. quote:
I suspect SusanDoris is going into these conversations with the best of intentions, really wanting to understand better-- but is at time overwhelmed or stymied by what appears to her to be an illogical conclusion she's struggling to comprehend.
No, I don't think that is so exactly; I do comprehend because I know how and why I believed when young. Also, I hope I am a realist - I am well aware that when cultures and world views change, and when such changes affect whole continents and the world, not just countries, these take time and have to happen gradually, otherwise they will be insecure changes.
And, yes, I am always interested in learning and, yes, my blindness does cut off a large number of other ways of doing this.
quote:
That comes across as dismissive and disingenuous but may in fact be just the difficulties of communicating across two very different worldviews. And of course SusanDoris is outnumbered here (tho certainly not alone in her disbelief) which can't help matters.
I think this makes it more interesting - for me, anyway! quote:
Add to that the logistic difficulties managing her visual impairment and I'm starting to soften in the way I'm reading/hearing her comments that can seem abrasive.
Thank you - wouldn't it be nice if we could all meet for coffee and a chat one day?! quote:
SusanDoris, I'm speaking for you here, when obviously you can speak for yourself, so please feel free (not that you need my permission) to correct the above. Does it sound to you like I'm fairly assessing the situation? Can you see why we sometimes feel tricked or set up by your questions? And/or is there something I/we are missing from your side of the conversation that would help us understand why these missteps keep happening?
Yes, I think your post is very fair an, as always, thoughtful, As I say, my reasons for being on message boards are uncomplicated - intellectual exchanges, keeping the old brain cells ticking over, and sharing in the interests of like-minded - ie.those who enjoy discussion!, people. quote:
This is becoming personal, so the hosts may come along soon to move this to hell, but my hope is we can resolve this amicably and graciously without having to venture down to the nether-regions.
Absolutely right. Harmony wins every time!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Fish With A Seal is an excellent name for this particular pattern, and all credit for it goes to Lamb Chopped.)
Agreed-- I resonated with the image (Cliffdweller claps her flippers and barks). I'd love to see an emoji for this...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But I haven't quite given up on SusanDoris, because she has a lot of interesting stuff to contribute IMHO, if she will only do so, and not keep repeating the fish-with-a-seal pattern again and again.
Thank you for saying! I have read your post through twice, but will have another read through the thread tomorrow.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I suspect SusanDoris is going into these conversations with the best of intentions, really wanting to understand better-- but is at time overwhelmed or stymied by what appears to her to be an illogical conclusion she's struggling to comprehend.
No, I don't think that is so exactly; I do comprehend because I know how and why I believed when young. Also, I hope I am a realist - I am well aware that when cultures and world views change, and when such changes affect whole continents and the world, not just countries, these take time and have to happen gradually, otherwise they will be insecure changes.
Yes, I knew that bit of your story, and your mentioning it here only makes me all the more strongly suspicious that that is precisely what's going on here.
I think we're all prone to that, particularly in these exact circumstances-- where you've had a bit of a life-and-perspective shifting epiphany. It's very easy to assume, then, that everyone who still believes as you used to believe would have a similar epiphany if only they saw/heard/understood the same thoughts/experiences/insights that led to your own epiphany. When people refuse to make that shift, it's easy to assume they either "don't get it" or are refusing to "get it" out of fear or stubbornness or ignorance.
In my line of work, I see it a lot among ex-Catholic evangelicals-- who are just sure that if every Catholic had there same set of insights/ experiences that led to their conversion, then they, too, would see the light and join an evangelical church. They are flummoxed by Catholics who refuse to go along with that narrative, and absolutely floored by ex-evangelicals who make the opposite trek.
That sounds a bit like what's going on here, simply with a different set of beliefs. And may be a clue why you sounds so frustrated at times in ways that to us very often sound dismissive or disrespectful. Often you are raising things ("science!") that we have already considered, but somehow seem to you to be a trump card that will cause our whole house of cards to collapse-- and then get irritable when that doesn't happen.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
mousethief
Thank you. One of the advantages of the word 'sin' is that it is one, strong syllable! All other words lack its impact. Can you elaborate on how God fixes things, I wonder?
By changing the human heart so we're not such self-serving bastards. Ideally.
That has certainly happened to me. My God story has improved and that has improved me in how I feel about others and myself. And vice versa. But it feels mainly the former. I'm still the same revolting, broken creature but I'm cool with that ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(This will possibly feel like I'm flattering someone who agrees with me, but may I commend cliffdweller for her use of the English language? It's a delight to read.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(This will possibly feel like I'm flattering someone who agrees with me, but may I commend cliffdweller for her use of the English language? It's a delight to read.)
That of course made me ![[Cool]](cool.gif) (sunglasses cuz, hey, I'm a Californian...) and then reread my post to see what I said that sounded so delightful... only to discover all sorts of typos, grammatical and spelling errors... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
...keepin' it real... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
So, does anyone think that the word 'evil' is religious? To what extent? (The BBC article also says it is.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
So, does anyone think that the word 'evil' is religious? To what extent? (The BBC article also says it is.)
(shrugs) Words mean what we decide they mean. Meaning shifts over time, and may take on subtle or not-so-subtle connotations. At this point in time, "evil" probably has religious connotations in some contexts, but not in others.
interestingly, dictionary.com seems to give it more religious connotations when used as a noun than it does as an adjective.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Words mean what we decide they mean.
Words mean what we USE them to mean. It's not really a decision 99% of the time.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm still the same revolting, broken creature but I'm cool with that
Years ago, in one of his best posts ever, Ingo posted in Hell something to the effect that "we're all falling-apart zombies, stumbling towards God".
(I just tried to find it, both via the Ship and Google, but couldn't. Does anyone have a copy, or know the thread? Thx.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I might be using evil to mean a kind of ketchup but I can't take that decision on my own and expect that to be what the word actually means.
What it means is determined by my audience and they will be informed by standard use in their context, and their knowledge of what the word might mean in other contexts, and what it might mean to me.
So for instance if they know I have religious leanings they might imagine religious connotations when I talk about evil, but not if a colleague without similar leaning uses the word.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I must say that this quest, as also evidenced in the BBC article, to (re-)claim the word 'evil' from religion is rather new to me. They may have it! I'll give them this word for free
Unless this means something like: "atheists / humanists should build their own moral systems instead of the religious ones", in which case yes, of course.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm still the same revolting, broken creature but I'm cool with that
Years ago, in one of his best posts ever, Ingo posted in Hell something to the effect that "we're all falling-apart zombies, stumbling towards God".
(I just tried to find it, both via the Ship and Google, but couldn't. Does anyone have a copy, or know the thread? Thx.)
It's on the Quotesfile thread. Which is hugely long, but I'd try wading backward to find it. Sorry I can't be of more help.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
It's here. (I don't think I agree with it though.)
[un-cocked-up link]
[ 07. April 2016, 14:40: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Sorry about that cock-up. My internet connection is extremely slow at the moment.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Is that twice I've read the expression "cock-up"in this thread? Or have I just drunk one too many sour apple martinis on the terrazo?
Shall we award a prize to the next poster who uses it?
Never mind. I have definitely drunk one too many sour apple martinis, which is bound to be a sin in somebody's book.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
Is that twice I've read the expression "cock-up"in this thread? Or have I just drunk one too many sour apple martinis on the terrazo?
Shall we award a prize to the next poster who uses it?
Never mind. I have definitely drunk one too many sour apple martinis, which is bound to be a sin in somebody's book.
AFF
What is a sour apple martini?
Posts: 2208 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2015
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
A Feminine Force: Is that twice I've read the expression "cock-up"in this thread?
It was me, both times. I like this British expression. Enjoy your martini!
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doone:
What is a sour apple martini?
Ah let me lead you down the primrose path of intoxication.
When my daughter was 16 I let her taste mine and said "This is what date rape tastes like. If a boy ever buys you an alcoholic beverage that tastes like a Jolly Rancher sour apple or watermelon candy, then you will know what he has in mind."
Because these little babies go down one two three and before you know it and you are lying under a coffee table (or bar) somewhere.
Risking eternal damnation for leading you astray, here is the recipe:
2 parts frozen vodka (of COURSE you keep it in the freezer)
2 parts frozen sour apple liqueur (the sourer and greener the better)
2 parts granny smith apple juice (or any other).
Stir. Pour into martini glasses. Garnish with Granny Smith apple wedge for maximum pucker effect.
AFF
[ 07. April 2016, 18:43: Message edited by: A Feminine Force ]
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
It's here. (I don't think I agree with it though.)
[un-cocked-up link]
Thanks to both you and Lamb Chopped! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
LeRoc--
I think we should probably start winding down this tangent. But a couple of things first:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Golden Key: You've repeatedly called Susan out for things other Shipmates do all the time, but you sound as if she's the only one. TBH, your attitude toward her seems obsessive. So why the obsession?
You're repeatedly saying that other Shipmates show this particular discussion pattern all the time. I don't believe you. You'll need to show proof of this.
FWIW, I'm not obsessed with SusanDoris, but I am obsessed with discussion patterns. I don't know; I just find those interesting. I have analysed other Shipmates' discussion patterns before, I've particularly done this rather extensively with IngoB.
(BTW, one thing I'm doing is trying invent names for discussion patterns. I've tried to look it up; there is an established body of names for logical fallacies, but there doesn't seem to be a similar one for these more subtle patterns. So I try to come up with names of my own. Fish With A Seal is an excellent name for this particular pattern, and all credit for it goes to Lamb Chopped.)
FWIW: I'm not obsessed with discussion patterns. My assessment tends to be more "Oh, good grief, they're fighting about THAT again, and it will go on for 20 pages, and it will all end in rage and tears", or "This person/view and that person view? Could be interesting, if they don't kill each other!", or "Oooo, that should be good!", etc.
I honestly don’t want to call anyone out. I’m not out to blame anyone. I just don’t want Susan or anyone else blamed for a) something they didn’t do; and b) if they did do it, something that lots of other Shipmates do, too.
I was going to select and paraphrase assorted current and vintage posts, so I could give examples without calling anyone out. But that would take hours, and be inappropriate on this thread. So some theoretical examples:
--“You aren’t a true (Christian, Tory, American, fan of…, environmentalist, Scotsman).”
--“You know nothing about (space, Aquinas, irony, roller derby, homelessness, the European Union, soccer/football).”
--“You/they are really (racists, uneducated gits, secret believers in Y, sheltered, turds).”
--“You’re not worth talking to. I’m going to ignore you. Fingers in my ears. La la la la la la la!”
--“Your tradition isn’t Tradition ™.”
--“How/why/do you (not) do X?” “How DARE you say we (don’t) do X?”
--“Only (tea cups, Christians, oyster crackers, homemade soup, Harry Potter, the Green Party, LOLcats) have the truth. Anything else is a knock-off.
--“That’s silly. Clearly, (42, evolution, the Bible, my political party, my cat) is the answer to this.”
--“Works!” “Grace!” “Apple sauce!”
--“God (is/isn’t a meanie, loves/hates us, is beyond/within us, does/doesn’t answer prayer, cares what we believe/do, exists/doesn’t exist/ can’t exist/ I don’t know/I don’t care, is chocolate/peanut butter/chocolate & peanut butter.”
Just food for thought.
[ 08. April 2016, 05:54: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
One of the things that I wondered about was posting style.
Something SusanDoris often does is answer every post in a thread she's started. In a real life conversation we just answer the points that interest us, or keep chatting where the conversation at that moment is going. Answering every post on a thread feels as if it's controlling the conversation, particularly when the comment is "Good post".
Now, when I see someone doing that, I hear echoes of another Shipmate leading threads he started. His comments often felt as if he was a particularly irritating teacher, trying to help us to produce the "right" (atheist) answer, which I found so patronising that I stopped reading threads he started in Purgatory.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Golden Key
I love your latest post!! I'm feling particularly cheerful today too, as I heard from the solicitor yesterday that today, after two years and a month, a reasonably large-sized cheque is to be paid into my bank account = settlement of the compensation claim (after being knocked down by that car).
[ 08. April 2016, 06:08: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
One of the things that I wondered about was posting style.
Something SusanDoris often does is answer every post in a thread she's started.
There are two simple reasons for this - I do not want anyone to think that, on a topic I have started, I have not read what they have to say, and if I do not respond, or highlight, copy and paste onto, say, a doc and use that area to type into, I find it difficult to find posts again. I have to scroll through listening to good ol' Synthetic Dave reading me the names of the posters and text of posts! Thank goodness for clever IT people and assistive technology.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Golden Key: So some theoretical examples:
Nah, most of your examples aren't very interesting to me; they're easy to react to.
quote:
Curiosity killed ...: Something SusanDoris often does is answer every post in a thread she's started.
I'm not sure if I find that a bad thing. I often do the same (but maybe people find that annoying too )
quote:
Curiosity killed ...: particularly when the comment is "Good post".
Yes, I find saying "Good post! " to anyone who vaguely agrees with her irritating, but I can't very well put my finger on why.
I need to think a bit about the things you said here.
BTW Good post
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
the problem with saying "Good post" to someone you meet occasionally is that they can act when being patronised! (BTW I laughed, but in a work conversation we'd be miming punches or slaps and rolling eyes.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
LC--
As I said to LeRoc, I think we should probably start winding down this tangent. But a couple things, first:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Golden Key, I'm afraid you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick as far as what's bugging me. It's not her atheism, her happiness in that position, her unwillingness to change (aren't we all?) or any of that stuff. In fact, I'm fairly sure you missed my defense of SusanDoris on another thread a while back on just those grounds. I want a varied Ship to delight in, and SusanDoris is a definite part of that variety.
No, I don't think I did see your post. If you'd like me to read it, please give me a link (here or via PM). I'll take a look when I get a chance.
quote:
No, what's bugging me is one very specific posting pattern that leads me to feel like a performing seal whose trainer is holding a fish out. This is the pattern.
SusanDoris posts a great subject for discussion, waits politely while everyone offers thoughtful positions, and then blows the whole thing off en masse as unscientific. End of discussion.
At that point either the thread degenerates into a frustration patch, as this one is doing, or various posters attempt to dig in to what precisely is meant by "scientific", which she evades, and the whole thing goes kaput. Another wasted thread.
Here is what I would LIKE to see happen. SusanDoris makes her OP as she always does, waits politely to gather in opinions as usual, but then responds by picking out at least one interesting point out of at least one post in the lot and replies to it in detail--whether that's to say "That sounds like raving lunacy, and here's why..." or perhaps "Would you tell me more about X, that sounds interesting. In particular I'm wondering about Y..." or even "Poster So-and-so, how do you reconcile your position A with B or C?"
Any of those responses would allow the discussion to keep going and develop, instead of it suddenly hitting a block wall at speed.
Or to use my metaphor above, the seal leaps out of the water, the trainer hastily snatches the fish away, and the seal thinks, "Why in hell did I even bother to try, I knew it would end that way just as it usually does."
Hmmmm...I just went back and skimmed her posts on the first page of this thread. I saw her doing just what you say you want: asking questions and commenting. Seriously. Even though the first response on the thread (from LeRoc) basically said she was playing games, and why bother.
Reading Susan's comments on this thread about why she posts here and what she's looking for, ISTM she's looking for fascinating conversation, rather than detailed, logical debates. She doesn't want to stir up any bad feelings. I think it's more "And what do you think, and why? Don't see it that way at all, myself. And would you like some more tea?" (Susan: hope that's ok!)
quote:
You suggest I just scroll on by. In truth, that's what I usually do with a poster who repeats the same rhetorical trick again and again and again. But I haven't quite given up on SusanDoris, because she has a lot of interesting stuff to contribute IMHO, if she will only do so, and not keep repeating the fish-with-a-seal pattern again and again.
FWIW: the seal can swim away...
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Golden Key: FWIW: the seal can swim away...
The thing is, thanks to this thread, and thanks to people like mousethief and Lamb Chopped, I feel that understand the Fish For A Seal pattern a bit better now. This means that I can think about ways to react to it when it happens the next time. Swimming away is one option, there may be more.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Susan--
Thanks, and wheee re your good news!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
No, what's bugging me is one very specific posting pattern that leads me to feel like a performing seal whose trainer is holding a fish out. This is the pattern.
SusanDoris posts a great subject for discussion, waits politely while everyone offers thoughtful positions, and then blows the whole thing off en masse as unscientific. End of discussion.
At that point either the thread degenerates into a frustration patch, as this one is doing, or various posters attempt to dig in to what precisely is meant by "scientific", which she evades, and the whole thing goes kaput. Another wasted thread.
Here is what I would LIKE to see happen. SusanDoris makes her OP as she always does, waits politely to gather in opinions as usual, but then responds by picking out at least one interesting point out of at least one post in the lot and replies to it in detail--whether that's to say "That sounds like raving lunacy, and here's why..." or perhaps "Would you tell me more about X, that sounds interesting. In particular I'm wondering about Y..." or even "Poster So-and-so, how do you reconcile your position A with B or C?"
Any of those responses would allow the discussion to keep going and develop, instead of it suddenly hitting a block wall at speed.
Or to use my metaphor above, the seal leaps out of the water, the trainer hastily snatches the fish away, and the seal thinks, "Why in hell did I even bother to try, I knew it would end that way just as it usually does."
Hmmmm...I just went back and skimmed her posts on the first page of this thread. I saw her doing just what you say you want: asking questions and commenting. Seriously. Even though the first response on the thread (from LeRoc) basically said she was playing games, and why bother.
Reading Susan's comments on this thread about why she posts here and what she's looking for, ISTM she's looking for fascinating conversation, rather than detailed, logical debates. She doesn't want to stir up any bad feelings. I think it's more "And what do you think, and why? Don't see it that way at all, myself. And would you like some more tea?" (Susan: hope that's ok!)
fwiw, I think you're half right. Yes, from the very beginning several of us were cautious-- and said so from the outset-- based on SusanDoris' past history of "seal w/ a fish". But yes, at the beginning she was really breaking with that pattern and engaging discussion in a way that was really helpful. Then she made a single comment-- and it really was a single comment-- that took us back to that same "seal with a fish" pattern. And we reacted because of the pattern-- because we've jumped for that fish so many times that now the appearance of even a bucket that might have fish in it gets an irritated reaction.
As I said, I think you are correct in assessing SusanDoris' motives as genuine. But I think Lamb and LeRoc have accurately described what is frustrating to us and why. It looks like SusanDoris is making some effort to correct that pattern-- which, again, I suspect is a result of honest bewilderment (possibly something like what I outlined above, even if SusanDoris doesn't recognize herself in that) rather than trollish provocative behavior, which is what it can feel like. I'm willing to make an effort to not respond quite so quickly next time based on that assumption.
But I do think having a helpful shorthand to explain the pattern helps. It might help alert SusanDoris but also help us shrug it off if we can just say "seal with a fish" rather than having to stomp off (swim off?) in frustration. Because really, that's our goal-- not to swim away but to stay and continue the conversation.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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