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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sin and salvation
Doone
Shipmate
# 18470

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quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
quote:
Originally posted by Doone:
What is a sour apple martini?

Ah let me lead you down the primrose path of intoxication.

When my daughter was 16 I let her taste mine and said "This is what date rape tastes like. If a boy ever buys you an alcoholic beverage that tastes like a Jolly Rancher sour apple or watermelon candy, then you will know what he has in mind."

Because these little babies go down one two three and before you know it and you are lying under a coffee table (or bar) somewhere.

Risking eternal damnation for leading you astray, here is the recipe:

2 parts frozen vodka (of COURSE you keep it in the freezer)

2 parts frozen sour apple liqueur (the sourer and greener the better)

2 parts granny smith apple juice (or any other).

Stir. Pour into martini glasses. Garnish with Granny Smith apple wedge for maximum pucker effect.

AFF

Wow, thank you. I've never come across this before - might give it a try when I've at least a week with nothing to do to spare [Devil]
Posts: 2208 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2015  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But I do think having a helpful shorthand to explain the pattern helps. It might help alert SusanDoris but also help us shrug it off if we can just say "seal with a fish" rather than having to stomp off (swim off?) in frustration. Because really, that's our goal-- not to swim away but to stay and continue the conversation.

Yes it's gonna be a cold, lonely summer
Knowing the love we'll miss,
Let us make a plan to meet in September
Sealed with a fish.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Gwai
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# 11076

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GK, Le Roc, cliffdweller, discussing a poster's style belongs in hell or nowhere.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812

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quote:
Originally posted by Doone:
Wow, thank you. I've never come across this before - might give it a try when I've at least a week with nothing to do to spare [Devil]

You're welcome. An artifact of my misspent middle age as a bartender/barmaid. I have more if you get bored.

AFF

--------------------
C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?

Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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Curiositykilled, Golden Key, Lambchopped cliffdweller and Leroc

Thank you for the above posts which, as always on SoF,, I have found a most interesting read!
If I was good at using emoticons, I'd find a 'thumbse-up' one! I would be interested to hear suggestions for a reply which means:

I have read your post thought it was an interesting one, would like to acknowledge this fact, but do not have a direct reply at the moment

instead of 'Good post.'


In my life, message boards are the only place where topics with religious connections and contrasting opinions can be discussed. At the gym and tap dancing, we're all busy getting on with the activiti involved. We go for coffee afterwards, but talk about families, gardens (for quite a few of them!) and othe ordinary, everyday things.

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But I do think having a helpful shorthand to explain the pattern helps. It might help alert SusanDoris but also help us shrug it off if we can just say "seal with a fish" rather than having to stomp off (swim off?) in frustration. Because really, that's our goal-- not to swim away but to stay and continue the conversation.

Yes it's gonna be a cold, lonely summer
Knowing the love we'll miss,
Let us make a plan to meet in September
Sealed with a fish.

[Axe murder]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Martin60
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# 368

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Is it sin to lose faith? And therefore salvation?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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Because in last night's 'God slot' someone was worrying very much about SCIS making them recant, not one of our needy guests, but a stalwart Christian volunteer. Although you can't really tell the difference: they all have crazed 'theologies'. I was compelled to say that it won't happen to 99.999% of us and that I had never experienced 'persecution' and never would (apart from by Christians of course) and that it was no big deal as Jesus lost His faith. Holy hand grenade Batman!

And the most broken guy there, a big rambling paranoid schizophrene Roman Catholic, knew EXACTLY what I meant and loved it.

But the 'leader' and the 'faithful' were horrified and did everything to deny that Jesus simply quoted as He felt; they had to come up with all the desperate stories others have made up before to make Jesus exceptional in His humanity.

In which to doubt is human.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Martin--

"SCIS"? What is that, please? I looked it up, but couldn't find any hits that seemed relevant.

Is it ISIS/Daesh, or whatever moniker it's got this week?

Thx. And thanks for sharing that.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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So Called Islamic State x

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Thanks.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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I should copyright it! This meme started here!!

Along with the apology of God.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Martin's meme! [Smile]

"Apology of God"? To? From? And what about, please?

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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It still frightens me to say it. But it's out there. And I was the first to say it. The zeitgeist being what it is and all.

In Christ we have the apology of God for the developmentally contingent, incidental, collateral meaninglessness of suffering.

I go further for the FIRST time. He asks us, NEEDS us, to forgive Him.

That takes even MY breath away.

I don't recall even Peter Rollins saying it.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Ah. But then, in the H2G2 books by Douglas Adams, God's Final Message To His Creation is "We apologize for the inconvenience". [Biased]

But yours is good, too! [Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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Dear me. When heresy spreads from one to two, that's a MOVEMENT!

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc: First, you keep treating 'evil' as a religious word. You're right in saying that 'sin' is a religious word, but I'm not convinced that it is the case with 'evil'. Christians and atheists both agree that what Hitler did was evil.
If "evil" as an adjective meaning something like "very morally bad" can be used by theists and atheists alike, why can't "sin" as a noun meaning "morally bad act" ? Do you have to believe in a personal God to agree it's a sin to kill a mockingbird ?

quote:
LeRoc: this poses the question "so, where do you think morality comes from?" In this post, you've tried to answer this...

Basically, your answer comes down to "morality exists because humans evolved with language, and language has words that describe morality".

I'm sorry, but that won't do. That's not even an explanation. Science won't accept "X exists because humans evolved with language, and language has words that describe X" as an explanation for any other subject X, so I don't see why we should accept it as an explanation here.

I may have it wrong, but it seems like what you're rightly rejecting here is the argument that the word "unicorn" exists therefore unicorns exist.

Whereas I thought SusanDoris was making a valid point that we don't use the word "sin" for the actions of the lower animals (bad dog! ) because sin requires moral choice requires self-consciousness requires language.

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Russ: If "evil" as an adjective meaning something like "very morally bad" can be used by theists and atheists alike, why can't "sin" as a noun meaning "morally bad act" ?
I guess you'd have to ask atheists whether they want to use this word in this sense or not. I'm not very defensive about religious words being used for non-religious purposes.

In fact, the Dutch word for 'sin' (zonde) has a secular use, but in that case it refers to a specific act: that of throwing away or destroying something valuable that belongs to yourself, without reason. Zonde!

quote:
Russ: I may have it wrong, but it seems like what you're rightly rejecting here is the argument that the word "unicorn" exists therefore unicorns exist.
Yes, a good way of putting it.

quote:
Russ: Whereas I thought SusanDoris was making a valid point that we don't use the word "sin" for the actions of the lower animals (bad dog! ) because sin requires moral choice requires self-consciousness requires language.
Hmm, what I was reacting to was SusanDoris saying "Our human species was lucky enough to evolve with language which enables us to consider our actions and label them according to which were evidently for the good of the group or not.."

I'm not sure if you can get the reasoning you gave here out of that (but then again, I don't think SusanDoris was being very clear here). What I got out of it was "humans do things; because we have language we can label these things good or bad, with this decision based on whether the act helped the group's survival in an evolutionary sense".

But I'll have to think a bit more about this.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Evangeline
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# 7002

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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Curiositykilled, Golden Key, Lambchopped cliffdweller and Leroc

Thank you for the above posts which, as always on SoF,, I have found a most interesting read!
If I was good at using emoticons, I'd find a 'thumbse-up' one! I would be interested to hear suggestions for a reply which means:

I have read your post thought it was an interesting one, would like to acknowledge this fact, but do not have a direct reply at the moment

instead of 'Good post.'


In my life, message boards are the only place where topics with religious connections and contrasting opinions can be discussed. At the gym and tap dancing, we're all busy getting on with the activiti involved. We go for coffee afterwards, but talk about families, gardens (for quite a few of them!) and othe ordinary, everyday things.

How about, that's a really good point, I hadn't thought of that before. I don't have an answer to that.

To me that's honest & not patronising or evasive which is how something like "good post" might sound in certain circumstances

Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812

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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
How about, that's a really good point, I hadn't thought of that before. I don't have an answer to that.

To me that's honest & not patronising or evasive which is how something like "good post" might sound in certain circumstances

I post regularly on another bulletin board which uses different software. It has a function embedded where you can "Thank" or "Groan" someone's post without having to interrupt the flow of the discussion with a quote post and a "thanks".

After such an extended shore leave, I came back to the Ship and was looking for the "thanks" button, and realized it was the Ship.

I think we have to do what we can with the tools we have. I read "good post" as just a version of the thanks button - not condescending, just the only way to communicate appreciation without interrupting the flow of the conversation.

AFF

--------------------
C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?

Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Personally, I don't see a problem with "good post". Others say that, or "excellent post", or use the "not worthy" emoticon. I certainly have.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Personally, I don't see a problem with "good post". Others say that, or "excellent post", or use the "not worthy" emoticon. I certainly have.

SusanDoris' use of "good post" is sometimes confusing because it often comes in response to a post totally refuting her point. So it's hard to know if she's saying "you're right, I changed my mind" / "interesting, I'll have to think about that" / "sarcastic: yeah, sure" / "good try, thanks for playing, but no" / "I don't agree but appreciate your contribution"...

But, as noted, that is to some degree a failure of having a good alternative emoticon or community norm for expressing appreciation for someone's post, as well as some of the difficulties we're experiencing understanding SusanDoris' unique style of posting.

I think the tangental discussion on this thread has been useful in fleshing this out and helping us all appreciate SusanDoris' contributions more and, hopefully, be a bit more generous in giving her and others the benefit of the doubt in these ambiguous postings.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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cliffdweller

Thank you for saying.

The thing I can absolutely assure you is that I
dislike, and do not employ sarcasm, either in posts or real life.

[ 16. April 2016, 15:32: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
cliffdweller

Thank you for saying.

The thing I can absolutely assure you is that I
dislike, and do not employ sarcasm, either in posts or real life.

Sadly, the same cannot be said of me... although I do try to give you a heads up with an appropriately snarky emoticon
[Devil]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Yeah, yeah--but what bugs me is when someone (yes, SusanDoris, I'm thinking of you) says "good post" or "interesting post, I'll get back to you" and never does--repeatedly, over a long series of interactions. It starts looking like a dodge to get out of engaging with the discussion. And it makes me feel like a puppy being patted condescendingly on the head.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Sadly, the same cannot be said of me... although I do try to give you a heads up with an appropriately snarky emoticon
[Devil]

[Smile] Your posts are always interesting ... ... ... and, you know, when I come to think of it, one of the reasons SofF is somewhere to read daily is the absence of bland/boring posts.

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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Yes. I don't post as often as I used to.

--------------------
Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yeah, yeah--but what bugs me is when someone (yes, SusanDoris, I'm thinking of you) says "good post" or "interesting post, I'll get back to you" and never does--repeatedly, over a long series of interactions. It starts looking like a dodge to get out of engaging with the discussion. And it makes me feel like a puppy being patted condescendingly on the head.

Give the girl some slack - she can't scan through like you can, everything takes longer when you are VI.

BTW - speaking of puppies, how is your puppy? You never did reply to my post or PM about him.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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She's cool. Being patronized by her is a privilege. She's lost her faith and is looking for a shadow of doubt. She needs strong benevolence to encourage that doubt. No weak hostility. No whinging.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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hosting/

Commandment 4 says: if you must get personal, take it to Hell. Questions about board etiquette belong in the Styx.

And please, puppies and tangents belong in Heaven.

/hosting

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
She's cool. Being patronized by her is a privilege.

[Big Grin] [Big Grin]
quote:
She's lost her faith and is looking for a shadow of doubt.
Slight quibble here: I did not 'lose' faith; I
found that what I had been learning, hearing reading about i.e. scientific facts backed up by evidence - easily prevailed over any remaining religious beliefs which relied entirely on faith. So I erased that minute fraction of belief from my brain.

The resulting feeling of wholeness was like dropping the last tiny piece into a me-shaped jigsaw and then all the lines, showing where the pieces had been vanished.

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Quibble pray do. Why come back? I utterly agree that there is no rational reason or need to believe in God whatsoever. There is no evidence, no magic; no claim, NONE, is ever substantiated, ever credible.

Nonetheless, He is. Behind, above, within, suffusing, breathing, thinking, drawing the infinite cosmos from eternity that shows no trace of Him, that exists just fine as if He didn't.

Because Jesus.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Slight quibble here: I did not 'lose' faith; I
found that what I had been learning, hearing reading about i.e. scientific facts backed up by evidence - easily prevailed over any remaining religious beliefs which relied entirely on faith. So I erased that minute fraction of belief from my brain.

That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing this.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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agingjb
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# 16555

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And yet I still don't understand how scientific observations enable us even to prove that we are not living in a simulation, even if that simulation is remarkably consistent and coherent.

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Refraction Villanelles

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
And yet I still don't understand how scientific observations enable us even to prove that we are not living in a simulation, even if that simulation is remarkably consistent and coherent.

I don't think you can prove something like that. However, if we adopt a criterion of utility rather than truth, then we can live by what is useful. There are endless possible scenarios like this - for example, the universe was created last Thursday - but while they may be interesting, they need not really detain us in the middle of our busy lives.

Of course, some atheists say the same thing about God!

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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agingjb
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Atheists do say, with emphatic certainty, that "science" in some way proves the non-existence of God. It's not a argument I find persuasive.

I know too much to be certain of anything.

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Refraction Villanelles

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
Atheists do say, with emphatic certainty, that "science" in some way proves the non-existence of God. It's not a argument I find persuasive.

I'm not surprised ! I don't know any atheists who say that mildly, let alone with 'emphatic certainty'. It's the negative proof fallacy, I believe.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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L'organist
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Attempting to prove a negative is extremely difficult: that is why the traditional route in the English & Welsh legal system has been that it is guilt that has to be proved. Of course, nowadays this is being turned on its head, particularly in the case of alleged child abuse...

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
Atheists do say, with emphatic certainty, that "science" in some way proves the non-existence of God. It's not a argument I find persuasive.

I know too much to be certain of anything.

I've never met an atheist who says that. Most of the ones that I know, say that a 3-omnis God is possible but highly implausible.

To say that it's impossible seems to assume perfect knowledge, and no scientist would claim that.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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agingjb
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Clearly I meet different atheists from shipmates, both in person and on the net.

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Refraction Villanelles

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
Clearly I meet different atheists from shipmates, both in person and on the net.

Citation?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Truman White
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
Atheists do say, with emphatic certainty, that "science" in some way proves the non-existence of God. It's not a argument I find persuasive.

I know too much to be certain of anything.

I've never met an atheist who says that. Most of the ones that I know, say that a 3-omnis God is possible but highly implausible.

To say that it's impossible seems to assume perfect knowledge, and no scientist would claim that.

Slightly more nuanced version is that since science tells us all we need to know abut reality we don't have to look for other explanations. If I meet another atheist who thinks like that I'll refer 'em to you to help them come up with a more credible atheistic position
[Razz]

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quetzalcoatl
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Truman White wrote:

quote:
Slightly more nuanced version is that since science tells us all we need to know abut reality we don't have to look for other explanations. If I meet another atheist who thinks like that I'll refer 'em to you to help them come up with a more credible atheistic position
An even more nuanced version is that science doesn't aim to describe reality. However, as Laplace is supposed to have said, I have no need of that hypothesis. But this is utility-based, not reality-based.

This is an interesting example, since Newton had reckoned that the solar system exhibited chaotic tendencies, therefore might need God to adjust it.

Laplace produced a refurbished version of mechanics, which described the solar system adequately. Then, Ockham's razor kicks in.

Hawking is often cited as having said that science disproves God, I'm not sure if he actually said that, and he is often misquoted.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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TomOfTarsus
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Blast it all... I had some pithy wisdom about sin and salvation about a week ago and now we've delved off into science and God. Some of you may remember me. It's been a looong while. Can't really post from work anymore, I take a short lunch break or just work on through.

But let's give it a try, feel free to ignore me. Funny people we, that have this strange sense of "ought" and "ought not." And we come up with all these rules and we try to control one another and have power over another - and take good care of "Number 1" in the meanwhile. it aches in our bones that things could be so much better if only... and the gamut goes from "if only people wouldn't care who was in the restroom with them" to "if only we could kill all these infidels and establish an iron grip on the law"- and that sounds anti-Muslim, but Christians have tried it too, and so have most all people groups in history.

Paul in Romans 1 states that "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." So what is that glory? When Moses saw His glory, it went something like this - "The LORD God, merciful and gracious, patient and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands of generations, forgiving iniquity and transgression, acquitting him who is guilty (superior translation), visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation" (So maybe we don't like that last part and jump all over it, ignoring the fact that his mercy endures not for 3 or four generations but forever.)

Jesus, when asked about the law, (the 10 commandments were in view) said it comes down to two - Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. Then at the last supper, He kicked it up a (very big) notch. "Love one another as I have loved you." We come so far short of that, both individually and collectively, that we may as well be trying to vault Everest with a drinking straw. Sin is endemic in us, it's what we are in our humanity - even when we try to "be good" we fall far, far short of the glory of God. Nothing we can do will ever, ever save us - but He promises to, freely and completely.

I have sinned greatly against someone. They can't forget, and it's hard to forgive - you have to go though it again and again. But God wills Himself to forget - "Your sins and iniquities I will remember no more!" I can't be fully trusted by that person - but God can not only see right through me, in salvation He heals, changes, removes, whatever you want to call it, that part of me that wanted to do the evil thing. He teaches me to love the way He loves, He" comforms me to the image of His Son." He puts a new heart in me.

Rich Mullins visited this topic a couple of times. Working from the illustration of the streets of gold in Revelation, he wrote,
quote:
And when my body lies in the ruins
of the lies that nearly ruined me,
will You pick up the pieces that were pure and true,
and breathe your life into them, and set them free?

And when You start this world over again from scratch,
Will You make me anew out of the stuff that lasts?
Stuff that's purer than gold is,
and clearer than glass could ever be?

And again in "Peace" he sings so beautifully of our brokeness, our inability to see into each other and trust and appreciate and love each other, and His ability to bring us into communion with each other.

And that, to me, is salvation. Having an eternity to get to know you, love you, spend time enjoying the presence of so many that I've met and haven't met, free of the baggage and lostness we falter around with, sometime hurting unintentionally, sometime wickedly and selfishly, always with mixed motivations, never quite "measuring up" no matter what - but justified freely by His grace. Basking in the presence of Christ, and hopefully, ripping off a fiery tap dance with our longtime friend, SusanDoris. C'mon, what do you have to lose?

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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

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SusanDoris

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TomOfTarsus
Thank you for the reference to my favourite activity! [Smile] I have listened through your post once and will do so again later.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Golden Key
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Good to see you, Tom.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Doone
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Thank you, Tom - lots to reflect on there.
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Martin60
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Truman, Q. God explains nowt, apart from Jesus. We know God through Him. Absolutely nothing else. His are stories that I find are impossible to explain - and I don't mean the supernatural - unless He was incarnate God.

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Love wins

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TomOfTarsus
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Thanks all. I do tend to blather on. It's a struggle to explain it. We are so used to performing for approval. From the earliest we can remember, we are tested, graded, spanked if we're bad, praised if we're good. We take our parents' love for granted, and even think they don't love us.

And against all evidence of a cold, pain-filled, tragic and dying universe, vast and unimaginably empty, we find a God Who loves us. It makes no sense.

But what is love without Him? We speak of numbers with ludicrous numbers of zeros either before or after them as we describe time, the expansion of the cosmos, the density of black holes, the duration and magnitude of the sudden expansion of the universe some 13.8 billion years ago - Sagan's Pale Blue Dot is just the beginning of the nothingness of this old earth in the universe, and on the other end we can detect sub-atomic particles that we can only describe, and never see. We've found the Higg's Boson, detected gravitational waves, and as Dave Ross said, Now we've seen all the way back.

And so what. We're all going to die. Unless... unless He really is there,and he really does love us, and has given us Himself, has made us Persons, unique, eternal, and even in our fallenness retaining something of His image. And all He asks is come...

This is dangerously close to where the thread had wandered off to before. An it's late, and I have to go to bed. Don't know when I might get back, but I sure appreciated the warmth of the greetings. So here it is again, a wall of text, a TL;DR!

I may be crazy, but I sure hope to "kick back with y'all" in the eternal communion and have a good chuckle about the nutty things we believed before we could "see Him as He is." - the One who loves us, really loves us, deeply, completely, furiously loves us.

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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

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