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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pledge of Allegiance
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
No, it's the Christian Flag.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And, despite disestablishment in Wales and NI, the state is still culturally Christian. Anyway, I suspect that the kind of atheist who'd make a fuss about singing 'God' is probably likely to be the kind of contumacious person who'd make a fuss about singing 'Queen'. So tough cheese and sucks to them.
Rubbish, bullshit, poppycock and harrumph. There are those of us, atheist, non-theist, theist non-Christian and even (shock, horror) Christian! who believe in disestablishment. Some of these might justifiably complain about enshrining God in government.
Ah yes, but I think you're American, aren't you? What applies in older polities doesn't necessarily apply there. You have different ideas about these things and a different cultural background. You're children of a particular moment of the Enlightenment.
Interesting reply, but it doesn't answer anything
I said.
Let me put it more simply: God does not belong in government.
I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm a public school teacher and do not say the pledge. I put the flag on the back wall of the room so the students are facing away from me. Well, the ones who say the pledge.
Mousethief (or anyone else here who's a public school teacher): I wonder if you've ever informed your students that they aren't required to say it. I never learned that until well after my school years (e.g., the 1943 Supreme Court decision regarding Jehovah's Witnesses). I wonder what kind of backlash there would be from parents or school administrators if a teacher did tell his/her students, "You don't have to do this."
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I don't know how coercive the singing of GSTQ usually gets in the UK these days. Are there any situations where it is included as part of official protocol, and people are expected to sing along, at risk of being in shameful violation of social custom?
I can't remember the last time I sang it. If a situation arose when it was expected that I sing it, I hope someone provides the words.
When not avoidable I simply sing the modern verse which starts Not on this land alone, But be the mercies known From shore to shore.
Looks like I'm politely joining in, but avoids any allusion to the ridiculous House of Windsor and its members.
Never had you down as a Jacobite, but you live and learn. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) BTW does anyone on here know whether there is a 'proper' Jacobite anthem for England/Scotland/Ireland? I haave an idea that national anthems, as we know know them, came in some time after the Revolution of 1688, but I'm not sure.
I have been known to quote (in a sermon, no less) that wonderfully unofficial verse about General Wade and the rebellious Scots, so no, not a Jacobite, just someone who thinks that the last legitimate king of England was Harold Godwinson, and he was bit dodgy too!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Many years ago my wife taught at a missionary kids' school in Senegal. It had two sections: American (much the larger) and British.
Each morning they hoisted the US flag and everyone stated the Pledge of Allegiance. My wife and her British colleague refused, on the grounds both that they weren't American and that we didn't do that kind of thing. This response led to blind incomprehension ... but at least they and their pupils were "let off" attending.
What really galled my wife was that the Senegalese had to pledge allegiance, too. The idea that their flag might be the more appropriate to use never entered the missionaries' heads.
(I must add that the mission concerned was a pretty fundamentalist right-wing outfit. I'm certainly not seeking to tar all Americans with the same brush).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What really galled my wife was that the Senegalese had to pledge allegiance, too. The idea that their flag might be the more appropriate to use never entered the missionaries' heads.
(I must add that the mission concerned was a pretty fundamentalist right-wing outfit. I'm certainly not seeking to tar all Americans with the same brush).
That makes me wonder if they were trying to form the kids into Christians or Americans.
Personally I've had trouble with the idea of the Pledge of Allegiance ever since I was a teenager. I just don't believe in vowing absolute loyalty to a political institution. Or to a symbol thereof such as a flag.
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm a public school teacher and do not say the pledge. I put the flag on the back wall of the room so the students are facing away from me. Well, the ones who say the pledge.
Mousethief (or anyone else here who's a public school teacher): I wonder if you've ever informed your students that they aren't required to say it. I never learned that until well after my school years (e.g., the 1943 Supreme Court decision regarding Jehovah's Witnesses). I wonder what kind of backlash there would be from parents or school administrators if a teacher did tell his/her students, "You don't have to do this."
See, this capsulates what's befuddling me. I basically always knew I didn't HAVE to say it. Nor did we ever place the kind of importance upon it that leads one to start worrying about Commandment 1 conflicts.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
They have something similar in Central American countries; at least from what I know, in El Salvador it is required for school children to say their version of the pledge.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
[... no, not a Jacobite, just someone who thinks that the last legitimate king of England was Harold Godwinson, and he was bit dodgy too!
Better than I had hoped! You have put my sarkiness to flight. I sweep off my hat and bow low to you, Sir. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Me, too.
I felt some irritation on both visits to Alesund in Norway where the guides wax lyrical about Ganger Rolf, aka Duke Rollo, the usurper William's forefather having come from thereabouts, very proud about the link with our current Royal Family.
The second time I did mutter that some of us prefer the Danish connection through Harold.
On the other hand, through Henry I's marriage into Alfred's line, and all the marriages with the Danes since, into whose unbroken dynasty one of Harold's descendants married, we do have our blood line as well as the usurpers.
If that sort of thing matters.
I started not joining in at Girl Guides after my Grandad opined that the flag business was idolatry!
[ 18. April 2016, 20:30: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
I am not sure whether people in other countries venerate their flags as much as Yanks do. It's very much part of our culture, especially in the South and Midwest. Just listen to our national anthem; it's about a flag.
One big reason for this, I suspect, has been a reaction against a few highly-sensationalized incidents of people burning or otherwise desecrating the flag as a protest. The media, especially outlets like our friends at Fox News, are quick to show pictures of this, knowing that it will whip millions of Americans into a rage. A popular tee shirt shows the Stars and Stripes with the caption "Just try and burn this one."
The flag also became something of a rallying point after the 9/11 attacks. Even here in New York City, where many consider overt shows of patriotism to be naive, flags immediately started appearing everywhere after the attacks. And they haven't gone away.
As for the Pledge, when I went to a Catholic grammar school we said it daily, but this certainly did not happen in the RC high school I attended. Indeed, I have not been in a situation where people recited the Pledge since I was 14 years old.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Some churches have a "Pledge to the Christian Flag", which makes me want to gag.
And reaching WAY back to my Vacation Bible School days, there was also a 'Pledge to the Bible,' which was as follows IIRC
'I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God's Holy Word; a Lamp unto my feet, a Light unto my path (and I can't remember the rest).
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Some churches have a "Pledge to the Christian Flag", which makes me want to gag.
And reaching WAY back to my Vacation Bible School days, there was also a 'Pledge to the Bible,' which was as follows IIRC
'I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God's Holy Word; a Lamp unto my feet, a Light unto my path (and I can't remember the rest).
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Now that is something I have never encountered.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Me neither. Dear Lord. The pledge to the Christian flag is creepy enough.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It amazes me that people will pledge allegiance to a flag, and take their hat off for it, and hold their hand to their heart ... who consider kissing an icon to be idolatry. The disconnect is deafening.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
No, it's the Christian Flag.
Yeah, the Pine Tree flag was a pre-independence flag-- one of many, including the famous " Don't Tread on Me" snake flag-- that was popularly used by the Massachusetts revolutionary militia.
The "Christian Flag" was popularized in evangelical churches. I' m sure the link above provides the origin story, but my cynical instinct is to synopsize it as, " They wanted something to make their placing of the American flag to the side of the altar look less lopsided."
My former home church used to have both flags, bookending the altar. I freely admit that to me it smacks of idolatry, bribing God, etc.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Interestingly, I have never, ever heard the original version of the Christian Flag pledge.( see Nicole's link.) I guess key people had a problem with that whole " uniting humanity in service and love" but.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, the Pine Tree flag was a pre-independence flag-- one of many, including the famous " Don't Tread on Me" snake flag-- that was popularly used by the Massachusetts revolutionary militia.
I know. But like I say, that hasn't stopped attempts to repurpose it (sample video here)...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And what about singing "I vow to thee, my country"?
Following Galatians 3:28, shouldn't Christians be super-nationalists with a primary allegiance to God and his Kingdom?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And what about singing "I vow to thee, my country"?
Following Galatians 3:28, shouldn't Christians be super-nationalists with a primary allegiance to God and his Kingdom?
I don't like that hymn for that very reason.
I also think the line in the second verse, "and there's another country, I've heard of long ago", must be the saddest in any hymn regularly sung.
Referring to the original subject, something has occurred to me. I'd be interested to know what US shipmates think about this.
We owe our allegiance to a person, which makes sense to me. Has the practice of pledging oneself to a flag grown up to avoid requiring people to pledge themselves to a president when just under half the electorate voted for someone else? Is it a symbolic replacement of the head of state, who might be, and often is, politically controversial, by a flag, which as a thing, is incapable of having political opinions or standing for or against any package of policies? Is it there so people can require others to say 'my country right or wrong' irrespective of who is in the White House?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Referring to the original subject, something has occurred to me. I'd be interested to know what US shipmates think about this.
We owe our allegiance to a person, which makes sense to me. Has the practice of pledging oneself to a flag grown up to avoid requiring people to pledge themselves to a president when just under half the electorate voted for someone else? Is it a symbolic replacement of the head of state, who might be, and often is, politically controversial, by a flag, which as a thing, is incapable of having political opinions or standing for or against any package of policies? Is it there so people can require others to say 'my country right or wrong' irrespective of who is in the White House?
Yes, I think so. See my post above.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, the Pine Tree flag was a pre-independence flag-- one of many, including the famous " Don't Tread on Me" snake flag-- that was popularly used by the Massachusetts revolutionary militia.
I know. But like I say, that hasn't stopped attempts to repurpose it (sample video here)...
But you thought that was the flag we were talking about when we referred to the Christian Flag, and it wasn't. I am aware that gun rights advocates (among other people) have espoused the Pine Tree Flag, but I have never heard it called " The Christian Flag," nor has it been placed alongside church altars in the prolific way that the " official" Christian Flag has.
I think it's important to talk about how that flag is used, because ( as I said) it is prolific, very often children in conservative Christian schools are required to say it, and the color scheme and phrasing of the pledge are actively conflated with those of the American flag. It teaches theocracy.
[ 19. April 2016, 13:40: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Enoch said
We owe our allegiance to a person, which makes sense to me. Has the practice of pledging oneself to a flag grown up to avoid requiring people to pledge themselves to a president when just under half the electorate voted for someone else? Is it a symbolic replacement of the head of state, who might be, and often is, politically controversial, by a flag, which as a thing, is incapable of having political opinions or standing for or against any package of policies? Is it there so people can require others to say 'my country right or wrong' irrespective of who is in the White House?
I just think the pledge was written at a time when poetic metapors about the flag of one's country were popular, in the same way " under God" was added at a time when it was popular to tremble at the thought of Godless communists. I think in the author's mind the flag represented the gallent revolutionaries standing in a throng behind it. Since then, it has become a tribal marker, not in the least because of the way the phrasing of the pledge isolates the flag from the people it is supposed to represent.
If I ran things, I would rephrasee the pledge in a way that required us to pledge allegiance to the people of the US. Or service, would be better.mBut that just begs the question of why we need a pledge at all. Somewhere along the line ( I'm guessing the Cold War era) it turned into a mini loyalty oath.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And what about singing "I vow to thee, my country"?
Following Galatians 3:28, shouldn't Christians be super-nationalists with a primary allegiance to God and his Kingdom?
I can't sing that, especially the first verse. The second supposes that heaven is heaven because it resembles England (and I mean England, not UK or Britain - it is obviously just the SE corner). The first verse promises to England things which it has no right to expect to be put above duty to family, friends and God. To demand the sacrifice of those to a patch of sedimentary rock* is obscene. To demand the sacrifice of those to a political system which supports the rich over the lives of the poor is even more obscene.
I'm with E.M. Forster on this one. E.M. Forster
“If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.”
If ever anyone decides to replace GSOGQ with I vow, as has been suggested, I would walk out whenever it was played.
*I am aware there are a few examples of other types, but you get the general idea.
[ 19. April 2016, 14:06: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
We owe our allegiance to a person, which makes sense to me. Has the practice of pledging oneself to a flag grown up to avoid requiring people to pledge themselves to a president when just under half the electorate voted for someone else? Is it a symbolic replacement of the head of state, who might be, and often is, politically controversial, by a flag, which as a thing, is incapable of having political opinions or standing for or against any package of policies? Is it there so people can require others to say 'my country right or wrong' irrespective of who is in the White House?
It's more along the lines of the fact that a president is not a king, and the U.S. Constitution was set up largely to avoid the situation where officials bore more personal loyalty to an individual leader than they did to the state generally or the ideals and principles of the government. Situations where people are supposed to swear personal loyalty to a specific leader have a dubious history, largely dependent upon having a good or competent leader as the recipient of such oaths. As an exercise in imagination, think about what the Watergate crisis would have been like if people were expected to swear loyalty to Richard Nixon personally. Would that mean the Supreme Court was disloyal for ordering the release of the Nixon tapes? Or the House of Representatives for drafting articles of impeachment? Or for that matter would it have been disloyal to vote for McGovern in 1972?
The American flag isn't so much an inanimate "cloth king" as it is a physical representation (an icon or idol, if you prefer) of American ideals and the American constitutional system. Theoretically that's what people are pledging their allegiance to, not whoever's legs happen to be propped under the Resolute desk.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Tangent // There's an American flag in St Andrew's Cathedral in Aberdeen, Scotland. It was presented by General Eisenhower. // end tangent
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Personally I think I'd prefer pledging my allegiance to the constitution, but the visual symbolism is lacking.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Personally I think I'd prefer pledging my allegiance to the constitution, but the visual symbolism is lacking.
All elected and appointed federal officials, except the president, and members of the armed services take an oath (or make an affirmation) to " support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; [and to] bear true faith and allegiance to the same." Most states pattern their oaths of office after this one.
The president promises to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
When I was admitted to the Bar, the first part of my legally-prescribed oath was "I solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States; so help me God." This is part of the oath of all elected and appointed public officials in North Carolina.
FWIW.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I suppose in this sense allegiance 'the Flag' is analogous to the allegiance that we in the Queen's realms might belive that we owe to 'the Crown'. (I believe there is a technical term for using the name of a thing to represent something bigger that is connected ith it, but I can't remember what it is at the moment. Some literary / linguistical / semiotical Shipmate may be able to help.)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Pars pro toto? Metonymy? Synecdoche?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I suppose in this sense allegiance 'the Flag' is analogous to the allegiance that we in the Queen's realms might belive that we owe to 'the Crown'.
I'm sure you're right. Trouble is, pledging to the Flag seems to be done in a far more literal way than pledging to the Crown ... We may sing "God Save the Queen" but we don't turn to face her picture while we do so (not even in the Brownies!)
[ 20. April 2016, 07:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I suppose in this sense allegiance 'the Flag' is analogous to the allegiance that we in the Queen's realms might belive that we owe to 'the Crown'.
I'm sure you're right. Trouble is, pledging to the Flag seems to be done in a far more literal way than pledging to the Crown ... We may sing "God Save the Queen" but we don't turn to face her picture while we do so (not even in the Brownies!)
Well, the US is less than 300 years old. Give us time to catch up.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I suppose in this sense allegiance 'the Flag' is analogous to the allegiance that we in the Queen's realms might beli[e]ve that we owe to 'the Crown'.
Or as we Scots believe, to Her Majesty's 'Throne and Person'.
Here's the General Assembly of the Free Church of Scotland in 1901 to the new King:
Mourning deeply as we do the removal of a Sovereign so deservedly honoured and beloved, we desire at the same time humbly to express our congratulations on the occasion of Your Majesty’s succession to the Crown of your ancestors, and to tender our loyal allegiance to Your Majesty’s Throne and Person.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I can't sing that, especially the first verse. The second supposes that heaven is heaven because it resembles England (and I mean England, not UK or Britain - it is obviously just the SE corner). The first verse promises to England things which it has no right to expect to be put above duty to family, friends and God. To demand the sacrifice of those to a patch of sedimentary rock* is obscene. To demand the sacrifice of those to a political system which supports the rich over the lives of the poor is even more obscene.
I think you're reading it wrong.
The first verse is about Christian love. And says that that love finds expression in service to one's country - people and land - above all earthly things.
No particular country is mentioned in either verse.
The second verse likens heaven to another country, that can be loved in the same sort of way that one loves one own country on earth, but whose glory is in things of the spirit not in armies and fortresses. And the love of that other country is slowly growing, and as it spreads there will be less need of armies and fortresses.
What is there to object to in that ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Always thought the second verse of IVTTMC was rather lovely and that it was a pity that objections to the first verse meant that it wasn't sung more.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Pars pro toto? Metonymy? Synecdoche?
Metonymy, I think. Thank you.
[ 20. April 2016, 20:52: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
When I started school, we would recite each morning:
I honour my God
I serve my King
I salute my flag
which falls into both the person and symbol pattern. Later on, we changed King to Queen.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Always thought the second verse of IVTTMC
Unkind! What is this? Decryption required. Is it NSFW? Otherwise evil?
quote:
Sorry, there are no Web results for this search! Your family filter is on and may be blocking results.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Oops, sorry: I Vow To Thee My Country
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Always thought the second verse of IVTTMC was rather lovely and that it was a pity that objections to the first verse meant that it wasn't sung more.
Seems to me that the objection to patriotism - that love of people and land can lead one into doing morally dubious things for the same of the foreign policy of one's government - applies just as much to all the other expressions of patriotism we've talked about here.
And that any particular objection to "I vow..." is based on a mis-parsing of the complex initial sentence.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Love of anyone or anything- one's friends, one's spouse, the Church- can lead one into morally dubious positions. Patriotism need be no more objectionable than any other form of love. FWIW I find that first verse a little too unconditional- 'all earthly things above- for me to be entirely comfortable with it.
But surely no Christian could object to an expression of patriotism towards the Kingdom of Heaven (and actually I'm not even sure that the second verse is an expression of patriotism even to that, as such)?
[ 21. April 2016, 13:55: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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andras
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# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Love of anyone or anything- one's friends, one's spouse, the Church- can lead one into morally dubious positions. Patriotism need be no more objectionable than any other form of love. FWIW I find that first verse a little too unconditional- 'all earthly things above- for me to be entirely comfortable with it.
But surely no Christian could object to an expression of patriotism towards the Kingdom of Heaven (and actually I'm not even sure that the second verse is an expression of patriotism even to that, as such)?
'The love that asks no questions' - vile, surely.
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God's on holiday.
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Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Well, that may be putting it slightly strongly, but fundamentally, yes, it's more than I think we should commit ourselves to, and a great big invitation to go down the road that ends up with you trying to explain your actions while standing in a dock with headphones on. It's the second verse that I am rather fond of.
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
"That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best" I have always understood as people, not things - and one has already given to the country one's entire, whole and perfect love.
Whereas, in several places, we are asked to love God like that, and then our neighbours as ourselves.
I do like the second verse.
[ 21. April 2016, 23:38: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Yes, and thinking more about the first verse, it's about an unquestioning willingness to sacrifice oneself, isn't it? Which I still feel rather uncomfortable with, mind- a bit unhealthy and could lead to other things.
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
Although it does seem rather odd that in the twenty first century the most technologically sophisticated society on earth should worship a flag, i don't think an anthropologist would find it at all strange. It is simply a manifestation of what has always been the case that human societies, tribal, national, or whatever, have worshipped the "imagined communities" to which they have belonged. There are not too may who regard themselves as strangers in the land and search for a city whose architect and builder is God. (Hebrews 11: 8-10).
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Although it does seem rather odd that in the twenty first century the most technologically sophisticated society on earth should worship a flag, i don't think an anthropologist would find it at all strange. It is simply a manifestation of what has always been the case that human societies, tribal, national, or whatever, have worshipped the "imagined communities" to which they have belonged. There are not too may who regard themselves as strangers in the land and search for a city whose architect and builder is God. (Hebrews 11: 8-10).
People have always used symbols as metaphors of the state. Recently, Ottawavians were treated to the Hat not having effectively challenged Senator Duffy's testimony, Turks were historically governed by a Lovely Door or the Sofa, while Argentines were directed by the Pink House.
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
People have always used symbols as metaphors of the state. Recently, Ottawavians were treated to the Hat not having effectively challenged Senator Duffy's testimony, Turks were historically governed by a Lovely Door or the Sofa, while Argentines were directed by the Pink House.
The Speech from the Throne deserves honourable mention here.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And, despite disestablishment in Wales and NI, the state is still culturally Christian. Anyway, I suspect that the kind of atheist who'd make a fuss about singing 'God' is probably likely to be the kind of contumacious person who'd make a fuss about singing 'Queen'. So tough cheese and sucks to them.
From what I've seen the fuss comes from those can't abide others quietly not singing it. See, for example, the furore over a Mr J Corbyn doing just that.
Indeed. I don't make a "fuss". I just refuse to sing it, point blank.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I should add, contumacious is a new word for me. Having looked it up, it's a badge I wear proudly. Although I can't imagine what legitimate authority can make me indicate allegiance to our unelected head of state and entire "royal" family anyway. Bollocks to them.
[ 22. April 2016, 15:05: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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