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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why did God create the universe, and us?
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
cliffdweller wrote:
quote:
There is something to be said for the "no explanations" position. Chalking it up to "mystery" does demonstrate a proper humility, of course, and recognition that there is so much beyond our understanding. And it sure helps fill in those gaps.
But the problem I have with "mystery" as an answer is that it makes God ultimately unknowable. It distances us from God, when I think the whole point of Jesus and the Bible is to help us to know God. And knowing God changes how we live. Theology matters-- because it changes so much in the way we relate to God and to one another. Sure, we can't figure the whole thing out, and we're gonna get a bunch of it dead wrong. But the effort I think to understand God and the universe does impact our lives in significant ways. ymmv.
Well, old age brings many benefits, and of course, some deleterious stuff, but I don't worry now about this stuff, not even the mystery.
My Sufi friend used to say that with the next breath, God is present, and I like that. Of course, there is more than breathing; at the moment, the birds are doing their spring anthems. It's enough.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
God is ultimately unknowable. We only know of him what He reveals to us. I don't see how you can get around that, if He is infinite and we aren't. We can speculate, we can deduce, we can even (as with quantum theory) delineate models of how certain aspects of God must be. But we can't ever really entirely know.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
God is ultimately unknowable. We only know of him what He reveals to us. I don't see how you can get around that, if He is infinite and we aren't. We can speculate, we can deduce, we can even (as with quantum theory) delineate models of how certain aspects of God must be. But we can't ever really entirely know.
Quantum theory is not used (as far as I know!) to create models for how… God must be. If you attend any cosmological conference you will find that exactly zero speakers bring up God as a possible answer—it isn't happening. The conversation about God creating the universe has been taking place in a vacuum for a long time.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
No, I was using quantum theory as an analogy. The physicists trot out dozens of models for how space-time is constructed: it's like a Swiss cheese, with holes! No, it's more like a series of holograms. No, it's like foam! Each of these ideas are accurate in a certain way, and wrong in other ways (hotly debated in journals which I can't understand). But space-time itself is not a cheese, nor a foam, nor a hologram. It may well be like all these things, from one angle or another.
And so with God. We trot out our analogies -- He's like the Prodigal son's father. Like a storm! Like Jesus, meek and mild. No no, He's not such a wuss, He's a stern judge. All true -- the Bible is full of these comparisons. But also, not true.
It is the only way we can think about Him, or indeed about anything. Analogy and metaphor are our only tools. But He is not actually any of these things, any more than the universe is a hole in a Swiss cheese.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
God is ultimately unknowable. We only know of him what He reveals to us. I don't see how you can get around that, if He is infinite and we aren't. We can speculate, we can deduce, we can even (as with quantum theory) delineate models of how certain aspects of God must be. But we can't ever really entirely know.
Well, except that he HAS revealed himself to us-- thru Scripture and more so in the incarnation. So, as much as God is infinite and transcendent and beyond us, he wants to be known. So while there will always be gaps-- things we just can't possibly comprehend-- I find the heavy over-reliance on "mystery" to be an obstacle that keeps God at a distance. I can't trust someone I don't know. And trust seems to be tied closely to the central, core purpose of faith itself.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
It's such a shame that God has decided to stop performing the amazing miracles described in the Bible. All we need is for one person to walk on water or perform unaided human flight and—bam—it would be all sorted.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I can't trust someone I don't know. And trust seems to be tied closely to the central, core purpose of faith itself. [/QB]
But how well do we really know anybody? Human beings are unknowable. How well does your spouse really know you? There are always bits of you that he does not know -- that you will not tell him.
Even our pets -- my cats are predictable, but only generally (they will always dislike being pilled, and that's Gospel). They are not absolutely predictable. Their very charm is that they are not knowable; through them I get a glimpse into an alien mind.
Even the things we make. Our children are of course famously beyond our control, but if you are a knitter -- knitters will often say that the yarn simply does not want to be a sweater, or a doily, or whatever it is you cast on today. The only hope is to take it down, roll it back up into a ball, and try something else.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I can't trust someone I don't know. And trust seems to be tied closely to the central, core purpose of faith itself.
But how well do we really know anybody? Human beings are unknowable. How well does your spouse really know you? There are always bits of you that he does not know -- that you will not tell him. [/QB]
Sure. And, as I said, this is even more true of the infinite, transcendent God.
However-- when I don't know something about my husband-- eg why he does what he does-- I try to find out. I ask questions. I listen. And because he wants to be known by me-- he tries to explain. Because that's what trust is built on. Sure, a little bit of mystery in a relationship is fun/exciting, but only a little bit. If my spouse is so mysterious that I'm not really sure if he's Jimmy Carter or Idi Amin, it's going to be hard to trust him, hard even to really love him. And again, that seems to be the whole point of faith-- to learn to love and trust in God. We do that by coming to know God-- albeit imperfectly, of course.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I can't trust someone I don't know. And trust seems to be tied closely to the central, core purpose of faith itself.
But how well do we really know anybody? Human beings are unknowable. How well does your spouse really know you? There are always bits of you that he does not know -- that you will not tell him.
Sure. And, as I said, this is even more true of the infinite, transcendent God.
However-- when I don't know something about my husband-- eg why he does what he does-- I try to find out. I ask questions. I listen. And because he wants to be known by me-- he tries to explain. Because that's what trust is built on. Sure, a little bit of mystery in a relationship is fun/exciting, but only a little bit. If my spouse is so mysterious that I'm not really sure if he's Jimmy Carter or Idi Amin, it's going to be hard to trust him, hard even to really love him. And again, that seems to be the whole point of faith-- to learn to love and trust in God. We do that by coming to know God-- albeit imperfectly, of course. [/QB]
But are all avenues of enquiry really open to you? Or rather, are you really open to all avenues of enquiry? Even in less weighty matters, we do like to avoid cognitive dissonance.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Good question from K., as usual. I used to be a Christian, but then I found that it got in the way, and there are other avenues to God, indeed, some of them seem very simple, whereas Christianity seems complicated and intellectual to me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
But are all avenues of enquiry really open to you? Or rather, are you really open to all avenues of enquiry? Even in less weighty matters, we do like to avoid cognitive dissonance.
K.
Absolutely-- on both sides of the faith equation. I would say I'm as open to new evidence as I'm able/aware. In cases where there's evidence I'm not integrating into my final conclusion it's (as it is for most of us) some subconscious defense mechanism.
(it does seem-- both from this question and from the earlier assumption of some sort of "disdain" for Big Bang theory that you may be attributing beliefs/positions to me that are not actually mine-- as happens sometimes. Which is not to say that your point is not still valid, of course. But perhaps not for the reasons you think).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
So, as much as God is infinite and transcendent and beyond us, he wants to be known. So while there will always be gaps-- things we just can't possibly comprehend-- I find the heavy over-reliance on "mystery" to be an obstacle that keeps God at a distance. I can't trust someone I don't know. And trust seems to be tied closely to the central, core purpose of faith itself.
I am in complete agreement.
I would even say that the entire purpose of the Incarnation is to enable humanity to know God, as Jesus stated. This is also the further purpose of the Second Coming.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I can't trust someone I don't know. And trust seems to be tied closely to the central, core purpose of faith itself.
But how well do we really know anybody? Human beings are unknowable. How well does your spouse really know you? There are always bits of you that he does not know -- that you will not tell him.
Sure. And, as I said, this is even more true of the infinite, transcendent God.
However-- when I don't know something about my husband-- eg why he does what he does-- I try to find out. I ask questions. I listen. And because he wants to be known by me-- he tries to explain. Because that's what trust is built on. Sure, a little bit of mystery in a relationship is fun/exciting, but only a little bit. If my spouse is so mysterious that I'm not really sure if he's Jimmy Carter or Idi Amin, it's going to be hard to trust him, hard even to really love him. And again, that seems to be the whole point of faith-- to learn to love and trust in God. We do that by coming to know God-- albeit imperfectly, of course. [/QB]
full disclosure: I was once, many many lifetimes ago, married to a man who turned out to be living a hidden double life-- a pretty dark hidden double life that ended up with him in prison. So perhaps this is why I don't find "mystery" such an attractive notion, and why being known and building trust is important. (altho K may turn it around and suggest it is evidence of my extreme gullibility. Both may be true to some degree).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
It's such a shame that God has decided to stop performing the amazing miracles described in the Bible. All we need is for one person to walk on water or perform unaided human flight and—bam—it would be all sorted.
K.
Ha. You think? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Within two minutes at least 70% of the observers would have come up with an explanation, however unlikely, that made it therefore unnecessary to suppose any supernatural interference at all.
That's just how people are.
And among the remainder, most would be attributing it to little green aliens or some such tabloid fare. Because aliens, or fairies, or even the popular conception of angels, are so much safer than God. He has this nasty habit of requiring things of us.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
It's such a shame that God has decided to stop performing the amazing miracles described in the Bible. All we need is for one person to walk on water or perform unaided human flight and—bam—it would be all sorted.
K.
Not withstanding LC's sorting of this, a gold star to you.
Though my preference is to skip the circus magic and get on with more practical things like loaves and fishes, or in this day, probly it would be fish burgers that taste like chicken, with gluten free and vegan choices that also taste miraculously like chicken.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
@Dafyd: "I do think it's possible to believe that the Fall is an extratemporal event. Every time I've advanced that idea I've got the response that it's terribly science-fictional. Well, so were satellites.".
That is a VAST disappointment mate.
The absurd comparison let alone the proposition that the Fall that never happened except in a story to 'explain' the human condition actually happened 'outside' time.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
It's such a shame that God has decided to stop performing the amazing miracles described in the Bible. All we need is for one person to walk on water or perform unaided human flight and—bam—it would be all sorted.
K.
Ha. You think?
Within two minutes at least 70% of the observers would have come up with an explanation, however unlikely, that made it therefore unnecessary to suppose any supernatural interference at all.
That's just how people are.
And among the remainder, most would be attributing it to little green aliens or some such tabloid fare. Because aliens, or fairies, or even the popular conception of angels, are so much safer than God. He has this nasty habit of requiring things of us.
Oh those wretched cynics and their evidence! They should just accept what God's chosen people tell them, right?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Is that irony?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
"Paul violently extinguished every other light in the world, so that Jesus might then shine it alone," (Paul Wernle).
I think this is a brilliant tour de force, however somewhat melodramatic, or even hysterical.
Particularly when put against centuries of Christians violently extinguishing each other .
God created the Universe and us because Eternity gets a bit bit boring after a while and He fancied some light entertainment.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
It's such a shame that God has decided to stop performing the amazing miracles described in the Bible. All we need is for one person to walk on water or perform unaided human flight and—bam—it would be all sorted.
K.
Now now, young man, you are being parochial. In India, and other countries, God produces tons of miracles, healings, levitations, materialization of objects, even the turning of water into petrol, quite useful, people living on air, and so on.
I know this may not happen in Basingstoke, but lift your eyes to the orient and see the glory.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
In India, and other countries, God produces tons of miracles, healings, levitations, materialization of objects...
It is interesting how many people there are in the world who are completely prepared to accept these things. Having spent years living in West Africa this is a common point of view there.
I believe that the reason that miracles do not happen today is because they take away human freedom, and also because skeptical people will remain skeptical anyway. So they do no good in that setting.
But those reasons do not necessarily hold among ancient peoples - as in the Old Testament - who were so deeply superstitious and simple that they considered miracles normal. The Old Testament descriptions show that miracles did not affect people for long.
I believe that Old Testament and New Testament miracles happened as stated in the Bible. But I doubt that most theologians today see it that way.
I think that there are good reason why miracles would be extremely counterproductive in a modern setting. So they do not happen. But in less sophisticated and skeptical parts of the world those good reasons do not necessarily hold.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
It's such a shame that God has decided to stop performing the amazing miracles described in the Bible. All we need is for one person to walk on water or perform unaided human flight and—bam—it would be all sorted.
K.
Now now, young man, you are being parochial. In India, and other countries, God produces tons of miracles, healings, levitations, materialization of objects, even the turning of water into petrol, quite useful, people living on air, and so on.
I know this may not happen in Basingstoke, but lift your eyes to the orient and see the glory.
You're right. I forgot all about Sathya sai baba!
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
"Paul violently extinguished every other light in the world, so that Jesus might then shine it alone," (Paul Wernle).
I think this is a brilliant tour de force, however somewhat melodramatic, or even hysterical.
Particularly when put against centuries of Christians violently extinguishing each other .
God created the Universe and us because Eternity gets a bit bit boring after a while and He fancied some light entertainment.
So after Eternity had already past, it got a bit boring? Or during Eternity it got a bit boring?
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
It's such a shame that God has decided to stop performing the amazing miracles described in the Bible. All we need is for one person to walk on water or perform unaided human flight and—bam—it would be all sorted.
K.
Now now, young man, you are being parochial. In India, and other countries, God produces tons of miracles, healings, levitations, materialization of objects, even the turning of water into petrol, quite useful, people living on air, and so on.
I know this may not happen in Basingstoke, but lift your eyes to the orient and see the glory.
HAH! Oh ye of little faith, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and worthy of eternal oblivion in the second death, I'm sure in Gazingstock charismanic circles all these things are routine, mountains fall in the sea, all sorts.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rolyn:
God created the Universe and us because Eternity gets a bit bit boring after a while and He fancied some light entertainment.
So after Eternity had already past, it got a bit boring? Or during Eternity it got a bit boring?
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I was thinking maybe it gets a bit boring from time to time. You know supernovas, Cosmic collisions and single atoms expanding to create more matter than we can comprehend surely gets a little tedious with nothing else happening.
It must be like putting the TV on to see how those Earth species He plonked in the middle of nowhere are struggling along. Throw in a few asteroids now and again to shake them up and you have hours of endless fun I would have thought. Well, not exactly endless from the Secular perspective.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
If you are creative, you are (subject to your own mortal limitations) -endlessly- creative. (This was the big hole in JRRT's {I]Silmarillion[/I]. Immediately I read that Feanor felt he could never make anything as cool as a Silmaril ever again, I knew it was wrong. When the portable-star gig went south, Feanor should've blinked, poured himself another cup of coffee, and reached for his pen, or Ipad, or piano, or whatever. In fact I wonder if that is why he never does anything much in the history if Middle Earth after the Silmarils are stolen. He leaves the other Valar to mess with it, and went off into another of the infinite number of universes, and is now playing lead guitar, or working in molten glass sculpture, or in charge of the inks in a seminal online comic strip.)
Of course God had to create. That's what He does.
In fact that is one of the ways quantum physics does bend around to meet religion. The number of universes is infinite. You expect an infinite God to just stick to one? Your God is too small.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Immediately I read that Feanor felt he could never make anything as cool as a Silmaril ever again, I knew it was wrong. When the portable-star gig went south, Feanor should've blinked, poured himself another cup of coffee, and reached for his pen, or Ipad, or piano, or whatever.
On the other hand, Auden says somewhere in the Dyer's Hand that no poet really thinks of themselves as a poet for more than a couple of seconds after they've finished a poem since they can never know if ever they'll write another poem to their satisfaction again. (No doubt he was speaking chiefly for himself.)
Even if we discount someone like Sibelius who after the Seventh Symphony kept burning everything he wrote as probably suffering from depression, there are a lot of poets and other writers who suffered from the shadow of their major masterpieces. Some of them kept writing, only not as well - Stravinsky, Wordsworth; some not so much - Coleridge's output fell drastically after the Lyrical Ballads (there was depression there too and other problems). Emily Dickinson wrote almost everything of note in a burst of two years, with a long dribble of mostly scrap lines thereafter.
It's perhaps a peculiarly romantic or post-romantic problem. But I take it that Feanor is nothing if not a romantic.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Feanor wasn't God... or even one of the valar...
For a finite being to 'say', "I've shot my bolt" might just be reasonable humility?
Do failures have any place in this scenario?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Immediately I read that Feanor felt he could never make anything as cool as a Silmaril ever again, I knew it was wrong.
And of course the master-crafstman making some creation that he wouldn't be able to repeat has become a relatively common trope.
I think I disagree, though - I don't think it's wrong. I've certainly had rare exceptionally "lucky" days where I have been more skillful than I have any right to be. Roll in a bit of mystical "Fëanor endowed the silmarils with so much of his essence that he diminished himself in their making" and Bob is indeed your mother's brother.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Roll in a bit of mystical "Fëanor endowed the silmarils with so much of his essence that he diminished himself in their making" and Bob is indeed your mother's brother.
I agree. I really don't see a hole here, or anything off about the story of Fëanor and the silmarils.
And in addition to the examples Dafyd mentions, the late Harper Lee comes to mind.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rolyn:
God created the Universe and us because Eternity gets a bit bit boring after a while and He fancied some light entertainment.
So after Eternity had already past, it got a bit boring? Or during Eternity it got a bit boring?
---------------------------------------------------------------
I was thinking maybe it gets a bit boring from time to time. You know supernovas, Cosmic collisions and single atoms expanding to create more matter than we can comprehend surely gets a little tedious with nothing else happening.
It must be like putting the TV on to see how those Earth species He plonked in the middle of nowhere are struggling along. Throw in a few asteroids now and again to shake them up and you have hours of endless fun I would have thought. Well, not exactly endless from the Secular perspective.
Yeah but Rolyn, in this galaxy alone, He's incarnating ten times right now. A trillion times in the visible universe, just one of an infinity. Right now. How can that NOT be so?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
So no matter how much our technology allows us to look outwards with ever more sophisticated telescopes, space probes and so on we won't ever find the limit of God's creation.
Like the old Panto routine where the audience call out "It's behind you".
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have no problem with God incarnating Himself in other universes. By definition we will never find out about it, so we'd never know.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Er, He's incarnated ten thousand light years away. This unimaginably vast galaxy is strewn with stars like dust and is itself a mote in a mote universe. Have you ever looked at the Sagittarius Arm just with binoculars? The Hubble can't do it for you.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
So no matter how much our technology allows us to look outwards with ever more sophisticated telescopes, space probes and so on we won't ever find the limit of God's creation.
Like the old Panto routine where the audience call out "It's behind you".
Fallacy of argument from ignorance.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I have no problem with God incarnating Himself in other universes. By definition we will never find out about it, so we'd never know.
It is kind of amazing that the closest theoretically habitable planet is thought to be 14 light years away.
I think that pretty much guarantees that we will never get there. So, yes, we'll never know.
On the other hand, since heaven must surely include people from every planet, we will have an opportunity to know in the next life. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
On the other hand, since heaven must surely include people from every planet, we will have an opportunity to know in the next life.
That will be exciting!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
So no matter how much our technology allows us to look outwards with ever more sophisticated telescopes, space probes and so on we won't ever find the limit of God's creation.
Like the old Panto routine where the audience call out "It's behind you".
Fallacy of argument from ignorance.
T
K.
You mean we WILL find the limit?!
To infinity and beyond!?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
On the other hand, since heaven must surely include people from every planet, we will have an opportunity to know in the next life.
That will be exciting!
More importantly, the other profound limitations upon our relationships in life will fall away. We will have an infinity of time, and attention will never flag because of sleepiness/gin tonics/the phone ringing/the need to start cooking supper. Nor will our mortal ranking systems be of importance (Kim Kardashian will at last assume her rightful place in the order of the Universe, a cause for hosannahs right there) and so our affections will be ordinate at last. We will care greatly about what we ought to care most about, and less about things that are unimportant, and not at all about things that are irrelevant. Race, skin color, gender, planet of origin, number of pseudopods, methane-breathing -- what a pleasure it will be to shed these irrelevancies and really get to know our fellow beings.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
On the other hand, since heaven must surely include people from every planet, we will have an opportunity to know in the next life.
That will be exciting!
More importantly, the other profound limitations upon our relationships in life will fall away. We will have an infinity of time, and attention will never flag because of sleepiness/gin tonics/the phone ringing/the need to start cooking supper. Nor will our mortal ranking systems be of importance (Kim Kardashian will at last assume her rightful place in the order of the Universe, a cause for hosannahs right there) and so our affections will be ordinate at last. We will care greatly about what we ought to care most about, and less about things that are unimportant, and not at all about things that are irrelevant. Race, skin color, gender, planet of origin, number of pseudopods, methane-breathing -- what a pleasure it will be to shed these irrelevancies and really get to know our fellow beings.
What makes you think that?
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
To me, it sounds like a nightmare. I think that it's precisely the limitations of time and space, and our own desires and inhibitions, which make life so interesting. I mean, we try to resist gravity, but it wins in the end! But the collision between is the real juice of life.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
More importantly, the other profound limitations upon our relationships in life will fall away. We will have an infinity of time, and attention will never flag because of sleepiness/gin tonics/the phone ringing/the need to start cooking supper. Nor will our mortal ranking systems be of importance (Kim Kardashian will at last assume her rightful place in the order of the Universe, a cause for hosannahs right there) and so our affections will be ordinate at last. We will care greatly about what we ought to care most about, and less about things that are unimportant, and not at all about things that are irrelevant. Race, skin color, gender, planet of origin, number of pseudopods, methane-breathing -- what a pleasure it will be to shed these irrelevancies and really get to know our fellow beings.
Makes sense to me!
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Clearly there is a break between the neophiles and the neophobes. Oh well, it takes all sorts.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Clearly there is a break between the neophiles and the neophobes. Oh well, it takes all sorts.
Well, your vision strikes me as life-phobic.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Eh? Time enough (at last!) to read all the books one has to read, talk to all the people (living, dead, not yet born) who it would be useful or fun to talk to, find fans of and organize discussion groups for all those books/movies/shows one simply cannot manage now? How is this phobic?
At this point in my life my activities are increasingly circumscribed by my vision. How pleasant it would be to not have to worry about that -- to never have eye strain any more, to read for hours again.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
To me, it sounds like a nightmare. I think that it's precisely the limitations of time and space, and our own desires and inhibitions, which make life so interesting. I mean, we try to resist gravity, but it wins in the end! But the collision between is the real juice of life.
You want conflict to make things interesting, and I think you are right to want it. But conflict does not necessarily equal evil/sin/fuckedupness. You can also find plenty of it in creative work, as you struggle with the limitations and blessings of the particular medium in which you have chosen to work. And none of that is likely to go away--I don't think, for instance, that in the new heaven and new earth metals are likely to behave identically to wood or clay. Nor will living things react identically to one another. I think we'll have eternity to explore, to make, to struggle and delight, and to share with one another--and "one another" = every created being and God.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Why is there no sadness in Heaven? The thought of obligatory happiness with no emotional dynamism and endless praise of the Great Leader without end for all eternity is far more terrifying than death.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm in danger of building speculation on speculation. The wounds are "yet visible above" but they are "in beauty glorified". So the memory of sad things will I think be there, but as part of an inevitable journey to "a better place".
I think some folks fear the eternal separation from loved ones (Heaven and Hell) and see enduring sadness in that prospect. Such arguments are sometimes used to cajole folks into desperate evangelisation of the dying, with all kinds of effects. On such issues, I'm a trusting soul. I don't worry about things I cannot possibly know.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We know for sure that God is bigger minded than our best stories and we will ever be.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And if God doesn't have a great sense of humor, we're all in deep doo-doo.
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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