|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Utah and Porn
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
A news story tells me that the state of Utah (in the U.S.) has declared that pornography is a public health hazard.
Is this reasonable? Is it an overreach? If you regard pornography as a problem, is this a reasonable approach? Will it backfire in some fashion?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
|
Posted
That's why they export it to Las Vegas, Nevada, and enjoy the profits.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
|
Posted
A social hazard. A psychological and emotional developmental hazard. In those senses, it could well ultimately be a health hazard.
--------------------
But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
As I understood, the two bits of legislation are this Resolution, which declares porn a public health hazard, but has no real effects - it's just the state saying "Porn - it's bad mmmkay."
and HB155, a bill requiring computer service techs and the like to report child porn if they encounter it.
The latter seems pretty reasonable and non-controversial. I suspect the former is unlikely to alter the amount of porn consumed within Utah.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
A recent study said that certain postal codes in Utah are number one in online porn subscriptions
They aren't attacking the underlying cause which is membership in the Church of Latter Day Saints. You got told that the founders of your church got to have all the wives they wanted of any age and you can't and people turn to other solutions.
Sounds like a weird excuse for looking at porn.
The Bible is full of people we're meant to admire who had several wives or concubines. What about the Prophet Mohammed with his polygamy - has that turned Muslims today into keen users of porn?
Utah may have a particular problem, but the polygamy of the founder of the Mormons can't be the reason....
[ 23. April 2016, 10:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
I think what he's talking about is supply and demand. The number of boys born is very slightly more than the number of girls. Boys are more fragile and fewer of them survive to adulthood, so that by the time everybody's ready to breed the numbers are about equal. Every pot has its lid.
Now: the Prophet or whoever's the head of your LDS schism group cops five, or ten, or twenty of those girls. This leaves the equivalent number of young men with zip. They either must go un-mated, or seek outside their group for girls. This in fact often happens; young men are pushed out of the group for one reason or another and are forced to move away. If they stay, porn may be the best outlet.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
There might (or might not) be a broader framework for the wording. There is a current push among a number of countries (including at a UN 3-day meeting this week) to change the "war of drugs" (Nixon's political campaign to target and jail his political opponents the anti-war protesters the pro-civil rights blacks by making a criminal offense out of using a substance Nixon's own blue ribbon committee declared harmless); the proposed new approach is to declare using not a criminal offense but a public health concern, so users will not be punished with long prison sentences, but providers will still be regarded as criminals.
The Utah wording is parallel in to the wording proposed these past several months in international drug use discussions of backing down from criminalizing the small user even while continuing to oppose the large providers.
This way individual users can seek help to change and get unaddicted without fear or being arrested for being addicted.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Now: the Prophet or whoever's the head of your LDS schism group cops five, or ten, or twenty of those girls.
I understood that membership in polygamous LDS schism groups was very much a minority thing, even in Utah. So I don't think you can blame any state-wide effect on polygamy - there just isn't enough of it to make a statistical difference.
The only place that polygamy is currently even accepted in enough numbers to make a difference is in Muslim societies; I have no idea whether polygamy is actually prevalent enough to matter there.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
The Utah wording is parallel in to the wording proposed these past several months in international drug use discussions of backing down from criminalizing the small user even while continuing to oppose the large providers.
This way individual users can seek help to change and get unaddicted without fear or being arrested for being addicted.
A difference would be, though, that with porn, there doesn't seem to be much chance of going after the larger providers, the way they still can with drug lords in situations where possession is legalized, decriminalized, or dead-letter.
I know there have been a few successful prosecutions of non-child porn in the US, mostly targetting the extreme gonzo variety, but other than that, the industry seems to chug along largely unhindered by state sanction.
I also don't think you'll see the "mental-health model" take root among porn users, the way it has among substance addicts. Granted, this is mostly anecdotal, but I've known quite a few people who indulge in porn, and I don't think I've ever heard one of them cop to having a psychological problem. Whereas I've known a lot of people who will acknowledge that they are in need of help for their drug and alcohol problems.
Possibly this is because porn dependency, while it might wreck your sexual or romantic life, usually doesn't push you to the point of staggering down the street screaming your head off before puking up your guts all over the sidewalk. Whereas booze...
[ 23. April 2016, 18:38: Message edited by: Stetson ]
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
|
Posted
There was a major article in the last weeks issue of Time Magazine about porn and how young men are saying that they are suffering adverse effects such as erectile disfunction as a result of over use of porn from an early age. These men say they now find it impossible to have normal sex without the stimulation of porn.
I can't link to the article because it's only available online to subscribers. (I read it in the print edition here at work)
--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
A difference would be, though, that with porn, there doesn't seem to be much chance of going after the larger providers, the way they still can with drug lords in situations where possession is legalized, decriminalized, or dead-letter.
Would you prefer tobacco as an analogy? It is legal for adults to buy and use tobacco products, but many governments have had successful public health campaigns against smoking.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
One may amass statistics about the damage tobacco causes -- cancer cases, secondary smoke issues, and so on. Where are the equivalent stats about porn?
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Would you be happy if your daughter was a porn star rather than a US army soldier ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
One may amass statistics about the damage tobacco causes -- cancer cases, secondary smoke issues, and so on. Where are the equivalent stats about porn?
How are you going to collect them?
Casting my mind back, the earliest POV I remember was that pornography "depraved morals" or some such formulation, which was what was cited in prosecutions at least. But that changed. The prevailing POV then became that it did no harm - though certain forms of porn such as pedophile subjects remained illegal.
And then various studies were done, and a rather unexpected finding seemed to emerge that taken broadly, access to porn seemed to depress very slightly the incidence of sexual violence. But yet time and again, when perpetrators of sexual violence are caught, they turn out to have staggeringly huge collections of porn.
All the above being my understanding - I don't follow the research so there may be newer data, etc. However, I would suggest there are at least indications of a problem in how you collect data. Like any data gathering exercise, you need to make sure your sample is representative of the population you propose to draw inferences about. There seems to be at least the early indications that the entire population is non-homogeneous in this respect. For an obvious start, do women react in the same way as men? And maybe there is a small subsection of the male population that reacts differently to the majority, and may genuinely be the ones who are "depraved" by it, whatever that means.
And does the problem of diminished arousal with a real sexual partner affect all males equally? I have no idea - I've never seen it examined. It certainly isn't entirely unexpected to discover that satiety of stimulation is possible.
But the overall point is, I think, that you may very well not be able to draw sweeping views about the entire population, even if you just restrict it to males alone. Just as with sexual orientations, you can't assume one descriptor covers all.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
Having watched decades of the Mormon politicians of the Utah Church/State opine on homosexuality and pseudo scientific statements about homosexuals it's obvious they are wrong and ignorant.
They should shut up instead of trying to impose their religious beliefs on others in the guise of fake science.
[ 24. April 2016, 02:54: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
A difference would be, though, that with porn, there doesn't seem to be much chance of going after the larger providers, the way they still can with drug lords in situations where possession is legalized, decriminalized, or dead-letter.
Would you prefer tobacco as an analogy? It is legal for adults to buy and use tobacco products, but many governments have had successful public health campaigns against smoking.
I think a government camapaign against pornography would be a little more complicated to implement than the one we've had against smoking, and with less effective results.
First off, everyone knows what tobacco is. But there is much less consesnus about what constitutes porn, especially when it's counterposed to things like erotica etc.
So, for example, if these government anti-porn ads feature some creepy old man slobbering over typical hardcore commerical porn on the internet, you can expect the comments sections of on-line media to be full of stuff like...
"How come the government is warning us about old men who look at porn, but I can walk into my local publically-funded art gallery and see a display of 'transgressive lesbian erotica' that's just as explicit?"
And how does the government respond to that? "Well, it's different when it's done by feminist scholars with MFAs who write treatises on lesbian erotica, than when it's done by sleazy photographers just trying to make a buck"? That's gonna strike most people as special pleading.
And that's just one example of the concepttual complications such a campaign would run into.
Secondly, the harms of pornography are somewhat more nebulous than those of tobacco. "Tobacco gave me lung cancer" is a lot more clear-cut than "Pornography ruined my sex life".
Nicolemr mentioned the Time article about guys whose sex lives have been negatively impacted by porn, and while I don't doubt for a sec that those stories are true, I think a lot of people, upon hearing them, are going to think "Well, I'm sure there were other factors involved, it's not like everyone who looks at porn ends up with erectile dysfunction."
TL/DR: Both the definition of pornography, and the harms associated with it, are too vague for an anti-porn campaign to be as effective as that against tobacco.
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Would you be happy if your daughter was a porn star rather than a US army soldier ?
I would be equally unhappy in both cases.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
My daughter is a US Army soldier. She got in through ROTC, where she was one of the top cadets of her year. The US government sank a fantastic sum into her education and training (the value, she calculated, of a Blackhawk helicopter). She is a female of terrifying competence both physically and mentally.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Would you be happy if your daughter was a porn star rather than a US army soldier ?
I would be equally unhappy in both cases.
I think for a general readership, the question could be taken as "Would you be happy if your daughter was a porn star rather than [whatever non-porn job your daughter is doing now]?"
As I think I've said before when this topic has come up, the "Golden Rule" objection is the one remaining snag to my giving pornography a ethically clean bill-of-health. I'm pretty sure I would be unhappy if I heard that a female relative was involved in the industry, even if I knew she was doing it voluntarily.
[ 25. April 2016, 03:53: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
My daughter is a US Army soldier. She got in through ROTC, where she was one of the top cadets of her year. The US government sank a fantastic sum into her education and training (the value, she calculated, of a Blackhawk helicopter). She is a female of terrifying competence both physically and mentally.
Which you presumably prefer to her working in porn ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
How would you define pornography that distinguishes it from erotica? I can't think of one but it seems to me there ought to be one.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
An, um, quick and dirty response to this question can be found in the following linked article
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201104/ what-distinguishes-erotica-pornography
(Note, I have broken the link in accordance with Ship custom because it nonetheless contains possibly NSFW imagery).
In movie terms, the distinction has been made that erotica becomes porn when you fast forward to get to the relevant, um, parts.
[ 25. April 2016, 09:40: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
I think the moral issue is that porn encourages objectification of others, rather than relationship. I guess you can argue that military training may encourage objectification of others as enemies (rather than satisfiers of our desires) so I can see why folks might have scruples about membership of the porn industry or the military or both, seeing that each is potentially corrupting of affection for others. Personally, I think the corrupting effect is much stronger in the porn industry, both on consumers and participants. I agree with jacobsen in her use of the term "social hazard".
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
I wouldn't quibble with those observations, B62. But in terms of the link that Eutychus posts, can we just say that the distinguishing feature of erotica is that it primarily arouses the aesthetic sensibilities, rather than the carnal (if I read him correctly, that is)? It looks to me as if you can simply shift something from one category to another by adding or deleting some mark*. Is that really it?
Whilst I would be happy to grant that erotica may well have an aesthetic dimension lacking in pornography, it just sounds a bit too much like theory looking for an application to me.
Try this:-
"I submit to the court that this work, which admittedly is profusely illustrated with pictures of children in sexual poses with adults, is a celebration of the culture of ancient Greece, and invites our appreciation of the undoubted cultural contribution that such activity contributed to the works of Socrates, Plato etc."
* in the sense of text, lines etc. etc. to cover applicability to different media
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
My daughter would never work in porn. It would negatively impact her plan for World Domination. Not to worry -- once her dark wing overshadows this planet, I'll mention the porn problem to her and she can fix it. I'll also get her to standardize ebook platforms and fix the music download industry.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Barnabas wrote:
quote:
I think the moral issue is that porn encourages objectification of others, rather than relationship.
So, then a People magazine cover declaring some Hollywood hunk The Sexiest Man Alive is porn, because no one swooning over the guy's cute face and hot bod is actually gonna have a relationship with him?
I guess someone could call my bluff here, and say "Why, yes, Stetson, that is indeed pornography". But let's be honest: Sexiest Man Alive covers are not what any anti-porn crusaders, be they Christian or feminist, are concerned about.
Honest Ron wrote:
quote:
can we just say that the distinguishing feature of erotica is that it primarily arouses the aesthetic sensibilities, rather than the carnal
Though it could be argued that a talented pornographer appeals to the carnal instincts, in an aesthetically gifted manner.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
And there's a long long history of displaying pictures or statues of nekkid women (or cute naked boys) while insisting that they are Historic or from Ovid or my tutelary goddess. That dates all the way back to classical times. What do you want, of course my deity Venus is depicted starkers, that's the way she rolls!
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
Stetson wrote: quote:
So, then a People magazine cover declaring some Hollywood hunk The Sexiest Man Alive is porn, because no one swooning over the guy's cute face and hot bod is actually gonna have a relationship with him?
I guess someone could call my bluff here, and say "Why, yes, Stetson, that is indeed pornography". But let's be honest: Sexiest Man Alive covers are not what any anti-porn crusaders, be they Christian or feminist, are concerned about.
Why yes, Stetson, that is indeed pornography.
Just because campaigners may not be after it, if it fits the description, then that's what it is.
(Though to be serious, no I don't think it is pornography, but the point about any stable definition sweeping in new, hitherto uncovered areas is a real issue. Indeed, it may help us focus our attention on matters we have not adequately considered hitherto.)
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
John D. Ward
Shipmate
# 1378
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
How would you define pornography that distinguishes it from erotica? I can't think of one but it seems to me there ought to be one.
Isn't this another of those irregular verbs?
I appreciate erotica
You enjoy pornography
He gets his kicks from smut
Posts: 208 | From: Swansea, Wales, U.K. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
My daughter is a US Army soldier. She got in through ROTC, where she was one of the top cadets of her year. The US government sank a fantastic sum into her education and training (the value, she calculated, of a Blackhawk helicopter). She is a female of terrifying competence both physically and mentally.
Which you presumably prefer to her working in porn ?
Is war is the ultimate snuff porn?
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Not to worry -- once her dark wing overshadows this planet... I'll also get her to... fix the music download industry.
Your daughter is planning to come to power in 1999?
quote:
Originally posted by John D. Ward:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
How would you define pornography that distinguishes it from erotica? I can't think of one but it seems to me there ought to be one.
Isn't this another of those irregular verbs?
I appreciate erotica
You enjoy pornography
He gets his kicks from smut
I totally agree the definition/criteria is going to be impossibly subjective, individualistic and overly-rationalized. That will make and has made attempts to criminalize it quite difficult and inevitably hypocritical. The charges may be exaggerated for ideological reasons. That doesn't, however, change the reality that porn does have some apparently, if imperfectly measured, negative impact on the real world. And as much as it makes us smirk and roll our eyes at more puritanical folk, I think there's some real need for a conversation about how to address that.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
An, um, quick and dirty response to this question can be found in the following linked article
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201104/ what-distinguishes-erotica-pornography
Though the article is not without merit, it is mired in pretension. That he delineates between "fine" art and "commercial" art betrays a very subjective approach.
I think it is correct to say that the purpose of porn is direct stimulation and immediate, erm, satisfaction.
But to pretend that "fine art" "sensuality" does not share the underlying motive of titillation is ridiculous.
Much of what we consider pornographic is subjective to changing cultural conditions.
Images from early playboy are indistinguishable from images hanging in contemporary fine art galleries.
Not saying porn is wonderful or art, just that the lines drawn between sensual and pornographic are artificial in their placement. It would be better depicted in a Venn diagram with a broad, and mobile, overlap.
Back to the OP more directly:
Porn is an objective problem where it overlaps violence, abuse and exploitation.
It is more subjective and conditional where it contacts fixation, addiction and harm to relationships
As far as objectification and relationships, ISTM there are far more dangers inherent in romantic films, everyday advertising and regular telly. One need never see a minute of a porn film or one image in a smut rag to have damaging misinformation on sex, relationships, healthy body image, etc.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
|
Posted
Just an anecdote (non-porn related) about Utah:
Mrs. Eluia and I were in St. George (a town in the southern part of the state) on vacation and decided to make a trip to the local liquor store. Liquor stores in Utah are state-run. We found the store, which was sort of hidden behind another building, and it turned out to be closed because there was a primary election that day. Not even the general election, a primary. Any excuse to close the liquor stores (and with politics in the US being what it is, you really want a drink on election day!). That's Utah for ya.
--------------------
Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
That's Utah for ya.
I remember bars, if not liquor stores, being closed on election day in Canada, as late as the early 1980s. I think the law has been loosened up since then.
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Stetson wrote: quote:
So, then a People magazine cover declaring some Hollywood hunk The Sexiest Man Alive is porn, because no one swooning over the guy's cute face and hot bod is actually gonna have a relationship with him?
I guess someone could call my bluff here, and say "Why, yes, Stetson, that is indeed pornography". But let's be honest: Sexiest Man Alive covers are not what any anti-porn crusaders, be they Christian or feminist, are concerned about.
Why yes, Stetson, that is indeed pornography.
Just because campaigners may not be after it, if it fits the description, then that's what it is.
(Though to be serious, no I don't think it is pornography, but the point about any stable definition sweeping in new, hitherto uncovered areas is a real issue. Indeed, it may help us focus our attention on matters we have not adequately considered hitherto.)
Point taken, if we really are just talking about the defintion of porn, separate from any application of the definition by real-world activists.
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
My daughter is a US Army soldier. She got in through ROTC, where she was one of the top cadets of her year. The US government sank a fantastic sum into her education and training (the value, she calculated, of a Blackhawk helicopter). She is a female of terrifying competence both physically and mentally.
Which you presumably prefer to her working in porn ?
Is war is the ultimate snuff porn?
Have you ever actually known anyone who was sexually excited by war, or by killing people? I would imagine the number of such people to be fairly low.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Misses the point, which is the comparison of accepted military violence, and, sexual pornography which is accepted sexual violence. Freud's ideas aside, I don't think the participants in either pornography or war are particularly sexually excited.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
My daughter is a US Army soldier. She got in through ROTC, where she was one of the top cadets of her year. The US government sank a fantastic sum into her education and training (the value, she calculated, of a Blackhawk helicopter). She is a female of terrifying competence both physically and mentally.
Which you presumably prefer to her working in porn ?
Is war is the ultimate snuff porn?
Have you ever actually known anyone who was sexually excited by war, or by killing people? I would imagine the number of such people to be fairly low.
There was a news item about 15+ years ago about an American judge who ejaculated when he issued death sentences. He was outed by a former clerk. A sticky situation, I admit.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
lilBuddha wrote:
quote:
As far as objectification and relationships, ISTM there are far more dangers inherent in romantic films, everyday advertising and regular telly. One need never see a minute of a porn film or one image in a smut rag to have damaging misinformation on sex, relationships, healthy body image, etc.
This is a very good point, and illustrates the difficulties that are present in trying to research these areas, let alone, trying to find solutions.
I mean, that attempting to assess popular culture in terms of its objectification of both men and women, and of bodies, relationships, and so on, as you say, is very difficult. For one thing, it is subject to personal bias - for example, one person might find Prince's performances to be lewd, another, that they are brilliant and electrifying.
I remember that Kenneth Clarke, in his book 'The Nude' tried to distinguish the erotic and porn, and got tied up in knots, pardon the pun. A lot of Victorian art seems to lie uneasily on the border between the two, as presumably, wealthy patrons liked a naked girl or two around the house, but with plenty of artistic pretension.
This is a famous example, a magnificent painting in many respects, but with a hint of voyeurism, maybe; certainly, many people feel uneasy about it:
http://tinyurl.com/jfhx9o9
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
We used to think porn was sleazy cinemas in Soho and titilation or light entertainment was Carry On films.
Whereas these days someone who takes example from Sid James and slaps a female bottom is likely to be on a sexual assault charge. Conversely anyone can surf some pretty full on porn any time of the day on a smart phone without causing undue alarm.
I would say the Venn diagram which attempts divide harmless erotica and harmful porn isn't only mobile but in a constant state of flux.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Yes, the shifts in taste are staggering really. Still thinking about paintings, 'Olympia' by Manet, caused a sensation, not just because it was a nude, but a nude prostitute. Eventually, the French govt bought the painting!
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Have you ever actually known anyone who was sexually excited by war, or by killing people? I would imagine the number of such people to be fairly low.
Well, but when they get to be, say, vice-president of the United States, the repercussions can be significant beyond their numbers...
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Re Utah and polygamy - polygamy is actually illegal in Utah, even polygamous cohabiting (and of course, polygamy is no longer endorsed by the LDS). This is due to the FLDS and the child/incestuous/abusive polygamous marriages amongst them. For that reason, most of the FLDS now live in Texas and I think Nevada too. Certainly the infamous Warren Jeffs and his clan are based in Texas.
I think for mainstream Mormons in Utah, it's much more to do with the squeaky clean lifestyle Mormons are expected to lead - and high birth rates and the highest rate of antidepressant use amongst women in the US, which when combined can easily lead to a low sex drive in women. So men turn to porn.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
I'm a little sceptical of your chain of reasoning Pomona. People turn to porn in other places too and some people who take antidepressants still have sex. Many people lead happy lives where sex is a periodic activity in balance with other meaningful activities.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
sexual pornography which is accepted sexual violence.
Is some pornography sexual violence? Yes. Is all pornography sexual violence? No. Though IMO the majority of porn is negative towards women, much is not sexual violence.
quote:
I don't think the participants in either pornography <snip> are particularly sexually excited.
Both porn and sexual excitement can be complicated, you think wrong.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As far as objectification and relationships, ISTM there are far more dangers inherent in romantic films, everyday advertising and regular telly. One need never see a minute of a porn film or one image in a smut rag to have damaging misinformation on sex, relationships, healthy body image, etc.
Far more? I think you could argue analogous dangers and if so, I'd agree with you. I have been known to get cross with the famous Ali MacGraw line from "Love Story" (Love means never having to say you're sorry).
But where does "far more" come from?
What I think we would agree on is that education and good example are preferable to legislation, when it comes to dealing with the problems of objectification and its consequences for our attitudes towards others.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Would you be happy if your daughter was a porn star rather than a US army soldier ?
If its an either/or question I would be much happier with the former.
--------------------
"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
