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Source: (consider it) Thread: Human rights of vegans - is this going too far?
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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In Ontario, it is indicated that vegans (which I understand as a strict form of vegetarianism) may be a protected human right following a ruling by the Human Rights Commission. It is suggested that educational institutions, employers and others might have to provide accommodations for this, e.g., accommodate a biology student who doesn't want to dissect animals, ensure animal-product free food is available, provide accommodation for any animal based thing such as a uniform which could be manufactured with animal products (?wool).

Info link from a webite. The second link is from an advocacy organization.

“Creed may also include non-religious belief systems that, like religion, substantially influence a person’s identity, worldview and way of life.

I am wondering what isn't a creed or belief system. Are there any practical limits to the definition of a "non religious belief system"?

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
HCH
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Would this suggest that a medical student could refuse to take a gross anatomy class?
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Boogie

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Sounds expensive.

My son turned veggie when he was 16. He wanted to turn vegan I said 'not in my house'. My reason being it's a very expensive option.

He's 30 now and still a veggie, but he never did turn vegan.

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Penny S
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I saw a very peculiar thing in a vegan magazine today. (I looked because I met one the other week, and wanted my objections ready.)

The writer kept rescue hens, past battery laying. He said he always got asked what they did with the eggs. Apparently, his wife ate them, but he was not happy about this - strongly enough to publish it.

But he has found something appropriate in his eyes to do with them. Apparently, hens can eat hens' eggs, scrambled.

!!!!!!!!! This feels as though there should be something in Leviticus about it. (Though I gather that is too early for that to be a consideration.) It feels horribly, horribly wrong.

It puts the dependence on soya which displaces rainforests and the inability of high latitudes to grow anything but grass and hence dependence on grazing animals and fish, not to mention what one does about the rabbits into the shade.

[ 26. April 2016, 19:18: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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jacobsen

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
In Ontario, it is indicated that vegans (which I understand as a strict form of vegetarianism) may be a protected human right following a ruling by the Human Rights Commission. It is suggested that educational institutions, employers and others might have to provide accommodations for this, e.g., accommodate a biology student who doesn't want to dissect animals, ensure animal-product free food is available, provide accommodation for any animal based thing such as a uniform which could be manufactured with animal products (?wool).

Info link from a webite. The second link is from an advocacy organization.

“Creed may also include non-religious belief systems that, like religion, substantially influence a person’s identity, worldview and way of life.

I am wondering what isn't a creed or belief system. Are there any practical limits to the definition of a "non religious belief system"?

Provide a wardrobe for the uniform? Sounds fairly standard to me.

[ 26. April 2016, 19:55: Message edited by: jacobsen ]

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PaulTH*
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It goes without saying that vegans have the right to eat or refuse anything they want. But that can't push it as a normal lifestyle, because they would all die of pernicious anaemia without taking vitamin B12 supplements, as the human body is unable to absorb iron in the absence of a vitamin only found in animal products. Other than allowing them the right to eat what they want, in common with all other people, what human rights do they need?

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Uriel
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Personally, I think if someone makes a conscious ethical decision not to use products derived from animals then it would be wrong to compel them to do so. Their decision should not force others to have to take on their particular strictures, but if someone chooses to be a vegan then they should be permitted to live their life this way. It isn't hard to accommodate, it really isn't.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
provide accommodation for any animal based thing such as a uniform which could be manufactured with animal products (?wool).

AFAIK, most vegans are happy enough to wear wool, but wouldn't wear leather.

quote:

I am wondering what isn't a creed or belief system. Are there any practical limits to the definition of a "non religious belief system"?

No, I don't think so.

If you have some sincerely-held belief (whatever it is), it is a good thing to respect that belief as much as possible. If you tell me you're a vegan and aren't comfortable being around cooking meat, I can respect that, but I wouldn't hire you to work in a (non-veggie) restaurant, because you can't fulfill the core functions of the job. If you're a vegan who's happy talking about cooked meat, serving it, and so on, but just doesn't want to eat it, you wouldn't have a problem working in a restaurant.

I don't think I care why you have a belief - I care that it's sincere, and I care that any accommodation I might have to make is reasonable.

You tell me you're a turbanned Sikh - fine. If you're working with power tools or something, we might need another discussion, and some kind of cover, but it's a solvable (and presumably solved) problem.

You tell me that your deep commitment to the FSM obliges you to wear a pasta strainer on your head at all times - OK (I'm probably going to have questions about how you ensure the pasta strainer remains securely attached and doesn't fall off). But if you're lying to me - if you say that you have an obligation to wear the pasta strainer, but you take it off to go clubbing, then you're immediately fired.

Or say you're one of these Orthodox Jews who from time to time makes a fuss about sitting next to a woman on a plane. I have no job that would be suitable for you, because I have no jobs that might not require you to interact with a woman. If you just want me to make sure the tactile woman down the hall doesn't hug you, we can accommodate that.

[ 26. April 2016, 21:55: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Other than allowing them the right to eat what they want, in common with all other people, what human rights do they need?

We're talking about something along these lines:

You hire a security guard. You have a uniform for security guards that includes a utility belt made of leather. Are you obliged to accommodate a vegan employee by procuring a man-made alternative for him to wear?

Which then raises another set of questions - can he reasonably ask not to drive / rise in a vehicle with leather seats? If you have some communal equipment that's stored in a leather case, can he claim the right not to touch it?

[ 26. April 2016, 22:00: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Sounds expensive.

My son turned veggie when he was 16. He wanted to turn vegan I said 'not in my house'. My reason being it's a very expensive option.

He's 30 now and still a veggie, but he never did turn vegan.

This is a curious statement to make. Rice and lentils, the staples of most of the world's vegans, are extremely cheap. Dairy and meat substitutes are expensive but many vegans don't use them. When Jack Monroe published their first budget cookbook, most recipes were incidentally vegan as meat and fish are much more expensive than vegetables and pulses. In the UK at least, veganism can be an extremely cheap option (in places that have genuine food deserts, not so much). I say this as someone with medical reasons preventing me from becoming a vegan - it would be much cheaper if I could be a vegan and replace all my meat with chickpeas or whatever.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
We're talking about something along these lines:

You hire a security guard. You have a uniform for security guards that includes a utility belt made of leather. Are you obliged to accommodate a vegan employee by procuring a man-made alternative for him to wear?

Which then raises another set of questions - can he reasonably ask not to drive / rise in a vehicle with leather seats? If you have some communal equipment that's stored in a leather case, can he claim the right not to touch it?

The "reasonable accommodation" standard would seem to be the way to go. It already works reasonably well for other belief systems. I'm not sure the fact that most vegans don't put ". . . because God said so" at the end of their beliefs is a reason to be less willing to accommodate those beliefs.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Sounds expensive.

My son turned veggie when he was 16. He wanted to turn vegan I said 'not in my house'. My reason being it's a very expensive option.

He's 30 now and still a veggie, but he never did turn vegan.

This is a curious statement to make. Rice and lentils, the staples of most of the world's vegans, are extremely cheap. Dairy and meat substitutes are expensive but many vegans don't use them. When Jack Monroe published their first budget cookbook, most recipes were incidentally vegan as meat and fish are much more expensive than vegetables and pulses. In the UK at least, veganism can be an extremely cheap option (in places that have genuine food deserts, not so much). I say this as someone with medical reasons preventing me from becoming a vegan - it would be much cheaper if I could be a vegan and replace all my meat with chickpeas or whatever.
It does seem curious if you're just thinking -- steak costs more than beans -- but in my house it's the attempt to actually satisfy the appetite of my 220lb son that gets expensive. He is vegetarian and I easily accommodate that. Almost all our regular dinners are things like pasta with mozzarella and tomato sauce or bean burritos. But when he takes his predictable monthly vow to go vegan, I have to omit everything that has even a trace of egg, milk or cheese in it and it gets hard. A meal of beans and rice leaves him so hungry he can go through a small mountain of expensive fresh produce in an evening. A container of hummus and a bag of chips is gone in seconds. Bread without butter, oatmeal without milk. It gets boring just to watch him and the high carb load means he's never really satisfied and at higher risk for diabetes.

I admire the desire to live without harming animals, but I wonder if we are really meant to do this if it isn't ideal for our health.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
You tell me you're a turbanned Sikh - fine. If you're working with power tools or something, we might need another discussion, and some kind of cover, but it's a solvable (and presumably solved) problem.

Yes. Sikh's don't have to wear protective headgear (policeman's helmet, motorcycle helmet, hard hat on construction sites) on their own cognisance.

But in other cases (since only a patka - a head covering similar to a bandanna - is strictly necessary, they can wear something over the top of that: NBC suit, breathing gear etc.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
...accommodate a biology student who doesn't want to dissect animals, ensure animal-product free food is available, provide accommodation for any animal based thing such as a uniform which could be manufactured with animal products (?wool)...

I am wondering what isn't a creed or belief system. Are there any practical limits to the definition of a "non religious belief system"?

They are acknowledging people can have strongly held beliefs that affect lifestyle basics but are based on values other than God. As to the limits, interesting question.

What kinds of accommodation is the question. A prisoner (or elderly confined to a nursing home) has no way to avoid the food that they can't emotionally tolerate, so makes sense to say the institution must accommodate.

But the biology example bothers me - if you don't want to do the exercises that the educators believe important to learning the field, you belong in a different field. But if it's just a beginners general biology course and one half-hour lesson involving a frog, I don't see harm in letting a few observe instead of do, except how do you sort out the believers from the merely squeamish?

Leather - does anyone actually wear leather anymore? Synthetics usually cost less and are easier to care for.

The issue is sorting out what things others must cater to the one who says no, and what things the one who says no must figure out their own way.

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simontoad
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So does this mean that McDonalds has to pay a committed communist a living wage?

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Human

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Leather - does anyone actually wear leather anymore? Synthetics usually cost less and are easier to care for.

Scuff a leather shoe and you just polish it. Scuff any other shoe and there's a good chance it's ruined.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

But he has found something appropriate in his eyes to do with them. Apparently, hens can eat hens' eggs, scrambled.

Chicken will eat nearly anything, including their own eggs, chicken, pizza, etc.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Leather - does anyone actually wear leather anymore? Synthetics usually cost less and are easier to care for.

Scuff a leather shoe and you just polish it. Scuff any other shoe and there's a good chance it's ruined.
it requires more skill, but it can be done.
If one's ethics are compromised by minor inconvenience, one cannot honestly claim to have them.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Gee D
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So it's OK to go through all the chemical process which produce pvc (or whatever it is that the shoes are made from) with the consequential pollution of the atmosphere and so forth, rather than use the product nature gave us and which has a history of millennia? Or do they all wear wooden clogs with cloth straps?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
It goes without saying that vegans have the right to eat or refuse anything they want. But that can't push it as a normal lifestyle, because they would all die of pernicious anaemia without taking vitamin B12 supplements, as the human body is unable to absorb iron in the absence of a vitamin only found in animal products. Other than allowing them the right to eat what they want, in common with all other people, what human rights do they need?

My sister is a vegan. She doesn't take vitamin supplements. She's still alive after 25 years of this. It might be 30

I conclude, therefore, that you're wrong.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
So it's OK to go through all the chemical process which produce pvc (or whatever it is that the shoes are made from) with the consequential pollution of the atmosphere and so forth, rather than use the product nature gave us and which has a history of millennia? Or do they all wear wooden clogs with cloth straps?

You pays your money and takes your choices. To a vegan, not harming animals is the prime directive; Killing one to wear its skin is completely out of bounds; it cannot be justified, any more than killing a person to wear their skin would be.

A vegan therefore will want to find ways to minimise the impact of creating alternatives to leather, but actually using leather is simply not an option on the table. And yes, some of them will resolve that by wearing shoes of other natural materials that you wouldn't care for.

You have to understand that to vegans, harming animals may ethically differ in degree from harming people (or may not, it depends), but it does not differ in kind.

[ 27. April 2016, 08:10: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Humble Servant
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Lacto-vegetarianism (i.e. what we all can veggie – eating milk and eggs but not meat and chicken) is an indefensible diet. It relies on the death of all the male chicks and calves; or on others to raise and eat them. Can’t be justified logically or ethically. Veganism (not relying on any animals for our food), or a carnivorous diet are the only logical routes. That’s why I gave up the vegetarianism my mother raised me with and now enjoy meat more than most who take it for granted.
As far as leather is concerned, it's no different from natural fur. If you wouldn't wear a fur coat (I would) then you shouldn't wear leather shoes or belts (I do). And don't talk to me about honey.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
We're talking about something along these lines:

You hire a security guard. You have a uniform for security guards that includes a utility belt made of leather. Are you obliged to accommodate a vegan employee by procuring a man-made alternative for him to wear?

Which then raises another set of questions - can he reasonably ask not to drive / rise in a vehicle with leather seats? If you have some communal equipment that's stored in a leather case, can he claim the right not to touch it?

The "reasonable accommodation" standard would seem to be the way to go. It already works reasonably well for other belief systems. I'm not sure the fact that most vegans don't put ". . . because God said so" at the end of their beliefs is a reason to be less willing to accommodate those beliefs.
Especially since IIRC courts are fairly reluctant to rule on whether something is a genuine religious principle or not. That is, if I say I am obliged to dress only in the correct liturgical colours for the season, a court may determine whether or not this can be reasonably accommodated, but would hesitate to try to prove whether or not it's a genuine tenet of the Church of England.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Lacto-vegetarianism (i.e. what we all can veggie – eating milk and eggs but not meat and chicken) is an indefensible diet. It relies on the death of all the male chicks and calves; or on others to raise and eat them. Can’t be justified logically or ethically. Veganism (not relying on any animals for our food), or a carnivorous diet are the only logical routes. That’s why I gave up the vegetarianism my mother raised me with and now enjoy meat more than most who take it for granted.
As far as leather is concerned, it's no different from natural fur. If you wouldn't wear a fur coat (I would) then you shouldn't wear leather shoes or belts (I do). And don't talk to me about honey.

I don't think this latter point necessarily stands. It is perfectly reasonable to consider that it is ethically unacceptable to slaughter an animal solely for its fur, whereas making use of as much as possible of an animal slaughtered for meat is acceptable. It's the view I hold, for example.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
Personally, I think if someone makes a conscious ethical decision not to use products derived from animals then it would be wrong to compel them to do so. Their decision should not force others to have to take on their particular strictures, but if someone chooses to be a vegan then they should be permitted to live their life this way. It isn't hard to accommodate, it really isn't.

I agree but I don't want to subsidise their lifestyle decisions. So I pay fees at a college that provides meals, if vegan meals are more expensive then the vegans should have to cover the difference should pay the difference.
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Humble Servant
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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
Personally, I think if someone makes a conscious ethical decision not to use products derived from animals then it would be wrong to compel them to do so. Their decision should not force others to have to take on their particular strictures, but if someone chooses to be a vegan then they should be permitted to live their life this way. It isn't hard to accommodate, it really isn't.

I agree but I don't want to subsidise their lifestyle decisions. So I pay fees at a college that provides meals, if vegan meals are more expensive then the vegans should have to cover the difference should pay the difference.
And if the vegan meals should work out cheaper (hint: they would!)? Should the vegans get a discount?
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Evangeline
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[Eek!] Does anybody actually wear leather anymore [Eek!]

Wow, leather is a natural product, it breathes, it feels so much better, it's much less costly to the environment (as GeeD says), apart from some canvas loafers all my shoes are leather-although I concede some of them have synthetic soles and I try to avoid synthetic fabrics at all costs, wool, silk, linen and cotton all the way.

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
Personally, I think if someone makes a conscious ethical decision not to use products derived from animals then it would be wrong to compel them to do so. Their decision should not force others to have to take on their particular strictures, but if someone chooses to be a vegan then they should be permitted to live their life this way. It isn't hard to accommodate, it really isn't.

I agree but I don't want to subsidise their lifestyle decisions. So I pay fees at a college that provides meals, if vegan meals are more expensive then the vegans should have to cover the difference should pay the difference.
And if the vegan meals should work out cheaper (hint: they would!)? Should the vegans get a discount?
Most of the cost of prepared meals is in the labour, so no, vegan meals wouldn't be cheaper in situations in which the majority eat meat. In Australia meat is relatively cheap, it may be different elsewhere but vegan meals are more expensive in Australia.
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Humble Servant
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It is perfectly reasonable to consider that it is ethically unacceptable to slaughter an animal solely for its fur, whereas making use of as much as possible of an animal slaughtered for meat is acceptable. It's the view I hold, for example.

What about killing an animal solely for it's meat?
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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
It goes without saying that vegans have the right to eat or refuse anything they want. But that can't push it as a normal lifestyle, because they would all die of pernicious anaemia without taking vitamin B12 supplements, as the human body is unable to absorb iron in the absence of a vitamin only found in animal products. Other than allowing them the right to eat what they want, in common with all other people, what human rights do they need?

My sister is a vegan. She doesn't take vitamin supplements. She's still alive after 25 years of this. It might be 30

I conclude, therefore, that you're wrong.

A number of standard foods are commonly enriched, or fortified with B12, these include flour, breakfast cereals, Marmite™, and non-dairy milks. More information

[ 27. April 2016, 11:01: Message edited by: BroJames ]

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Twilight

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But what actually is Marmite? I tasted it once and it seemed like it might be a mixture of soy sauce and a thick gelatin brewed from the marrow of Platypus bones.
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Doc Tor
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Marmite is the food of the gods, brewed in yeasty darkness and bottled for mere mortals to enjoy.

Or, as the internet has it:
quote:
My girlfriend told me she could take or leave Marmite. Now I can't trust anything she says.


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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
[Eek!] Does anybody actually wear leather anymore [Eek!]

Wow, leather is a natural product, it breathes, it feels so much better, it's much less costly to the environment (as GeeD says), apart from some canvas loafers all my shoes are leather-although I concede some of them have synthetic soles and I try to avoid synthetic fabrics at all costs, wool, silk, linen and cotton all the way.

Leather car seats are far better than any other.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Sounds expensive.

My son turned veggie when he was 16. He wanted to turn vegan I said 'not in my house'. My reason being it's a very expensive option.

He's 30 now and still a veggie, but he never did turn vegan.

This is a curious statement to make. Rice and lentils, the staples of most of the world's vegans, are extremely cheap. Dairy and meat substitutes are expensive but many vegans don't use them. When Jack Monroe published their first budget cookbook, most recipes were incidentally vegan as meat and fish are much more expensive than vegetables and pulses. In the UK at least, veganism can be an extremely cheap option (in places that have genuine food deserts, not so much). I say this as someone with medical reasons preventing me from becoming a vegan - it would be much cheaper if I could be a vegan and replace all my meat with chickpeas or whatever.
Buying separately for one person in the household would certainly cost more. As it was he had cheese, eggs, beans etc for his protein with no particularly separate meals.

My brother is veggie and lives with us three days a week, on those days we eat purely veggie. When my son comes home we eat veggie for as long as he's with us. My husband is the cook and he makes many fabulous veggie meals. Vegan is a step too far, if either turned vegan they'd have to sort themselves out.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My sister is a vegan. She doesn't take vitamin supplements. She's still alive after 25 years of this. It might be 30

I conclude, therefore, that you're wrong.

I would not conclude anything more than that your sister is still alive. You quote an example, while PaulTH is relying upon broad studies of many examples.

As to your post in answer to me, I do understand that to be the vegan position. I find that difficult to reconcile with a wider concern about the environment. In effect, it's a smoker saying that there should be freedom to smoke because that is the only way to satisfy their addiction and bugger those around them who have to put up with both the unpleasantness of the smoke and the increased exposure to carcinogens.

[ 27. April 2016, 12:15: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It is perfectly reasonable to consider that it is ethically unacceptable to slaughter an animal solely for its fur, whereas making use of as much as possible of an animal slaughtered for meat is acceptable. It's the view I hold, for example.

What about killing an animal solely for it's meat?
Food seems a better excuse than fashion, to me at any rate.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My sister is a vegan. She doesn't take vitamin supplements. She's still alive after 25 years of this. It might be 30

I conclude, therefore, that you're wrong.

I would not conclude anything more than that your sister is still alive. You quote an example, while PaulTH is relying upon broad studies of many examples.
PaulTH said vegans had to take supplements. They don't, as BroJames pointed out, as many vegan foods come fortified with B12. The idea that vegans are running around popping pills to supplement an inadequate diet is what I was aiming at.

quote:
As to your post in answer to me, I do understand that to be the vegan position. I find that difficult to reconcile with a wider concern about the environment. In effect, it's a smoker saying that there should be freedom to smoke because that is the only way to satisfy their addiction and bugger those around them who have to put up with both the unpleasantness of the smoke and the increased exposure to carcinogens.
Not really the same thing at all; no-one has a deep-seated moral and ethical objection to not smoking, whereas Vegans do have such objections to using animals. A smoker can hardly argue it's a lesser evil, whereas the vegan might.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Rice and lentils, the staples of most of the world's vegans, are extremely cheap.

It does seem curious if you're just thinking -- steak costs more than beans -- but in my house it's the attempt to actually satisfy the appetite of my 220lb son that gets expensive. He is vegetarian and I easily accommodate that. Almost all our regular dinners are things like pasta with mozzarella and tomato sauce or bean burritos. But when he takes his predictable monthly vow to go vegan, I have to omit everything that has even a trace of egg, milk or cheese in it and it gets hard. A meal of beans and rice leaves him so hungry he can go through a small mountain of expensive fresh produce in an evening.
If you remove milk, cheese and eggs you are removing the fat. It takes fats to feel full (and, as you say, reduce the carb overload that too easily leads to diabetes).

The body needs fats! (The "low fat" recommendation was not based on science; the most recent USA revised guidelines back off from demonizing fats and admit sugar is the real problem, although the scientific recommendation of "no added sugar" was rejected to please the sugar industry).

Add to beans and rice a big serving of avocado, saute veggies in coconut oil, pour some room temp olive or other seed oil over the meal (NOT generic "vegetable oil"), add a handful of nuts and seeds - if oil foods are an abundant part of the meal he'll fill up much faster and without so much over-reliance on blood sugar threatening foods.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
PaulTH said vegans had to take supplements. They don't, as BroJames pointed out, as many vegan foods come fortified with B12.

They kind of are taking supplements then. Just ground up supplements sprinkled on food.

I don't know why this is a question of normal/abnormal though. If I didn't take additional supplemental water on top of my usual diet I'd be in a bad way. Does that mean my diet is less normal than if it contained enough liquid to do away with the supplemental water?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Just in passing - what you as an individual may need in the way of supplements or even dietary change will also vary from person to person, depending on your metabolism. Some people can be seriously challenged by selective diets, others not at all. Comments about what the average person needs should not be confused with what any individual needs.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Sounds expensive.

My son turned veggie when he was 16. He wanted to turn vegan I said 'not in my house'. My reason being it's a very expensive option.

He's 30 now and still a veggie, but he never did turn vegan.

This is a curious statement to make. Rice and lentils, the staples of most of the world's vegans, are extremely cheap. Dairy and meat substitutes are expensive but many vegans don't use them. When Jack Monroe published their first budget cookbook, most recipes were incidentally vegan as meat and fish are much more expensive than vegetables and pulses. In the UK at least, veganism can be an extremely cheap option (in places that have genuine food deserts, not so much). I say this as someone with medical reasons preventing me from becoming a vegan - it would be much cheaper if I could be a vegan and replace all my meat with chickpeas or whatever.
Buying separately for one person in the household would certainly cost more. As it was he had cheese, eggs, beans etc for his protein with no particularly separate meals.

My brother is veggie and lives with us three days a week, on those days we eat purely veggie. When my son comes home we eat veggie for as long as he's with us. My husband is the cook and he makes many fabulous veggie meals. Vegan is a step too far, if either turned vegan they'd have to sort themselves out.

That's not actually what you said, though - you said that being vegan is a very expensive option. It's not. You would not necessarily even have to buy very much more for one vegan member of an omnivorous household - vegans still eat rice, dried pasta, vegetables etc and I assume the omnivores eat pulses in things like chilli and baked beans. Again, faux meat and faux dairy are not necessary for a vegan diet - lots of vegans enjoy them, but they are optional extras. Lots of meals an omnivore would eat are incidentally vegan - ratatouille, pasta with vegetable and tomato based sauces, Thai and south Indian vegetable curries, vegetable tagines, falafel and other mezze, stuffed vegetables. The only really necessary extras a vegan might need are more pulses, more vegetables, more cooking oil, vegan margarine (Vitalite is vegan and cheaper than butter) and B12 sources like Marmite. None of those things are expensive, especially if bought in bulk from health food shops (even Holland & Barrett) rather than tiny supermarket packets. Big sacks of rice and dal and cheap tins of coconut milk and coconut oil from Asian shops are brilliant! I'm not vegan and medically can't go vegan, but even I know it can be a very cheap diet in the UK - our multicultural towns and cities are a real blessing here!

Could you explain more fully why your family couldn't enjoy vegan meals together? There's no reason why you couldn't enjoy vegan food - my best friend is vegan, myself and her husband are not. Somehow me and her husband manage to eat well and enjoy our food when we eat vegan food together - it's just vegetables, not poison!

[ 27. April 2016, 14:07: Message edited by: Pomona ]

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Rice and lentils, the staples of most of the world's vegans, are extremely cheap.

It does seem curious if you're just thinking -- steak costs more than beans -- but in my house it's the attempt to actually satisfy the appetite of my 220lb son that gets expensive. He is vegetarian and I easily accommodate that. Almost all our regular dinners are things like pasta with mozzarella and tomato sauce or bean burritos. But when he takes his predictable monthly vow to go vegan, I have to omit everything that has even a trace of egg, milk or cheese in it and it gets hard. A meal of beans and rice leaves him so hungry he can go through a small mountain of expensive fresh produce in an evening.
If you remove milk, cheese and eggs you are removing the fat. It takes fats to feel full (and, as you say, reduce the carb overload that too easily leads to diabetes).

The body needs fats! (The "low fat" recommendation was not based on science; the most recent USA revised guidelines back off from demonizing fats and admit sugar is the real problem, although the scientific recommendation of "no added sugar" was rejected to please the sugar industry).

Add to beans and rice a big serving of avocado, saute veggies in coconut oil, pour some room temp olive or other seed oil over the meal (NOT generic "vegetable oil"), add a handful of nuts and seeds - if oil foods are an abundant part of the meal he'll fill up much faster and without so much over-reliance on blood sugar threatening foods.

Firstly, carbohydrates do not cause Type 2 diabetes (assuming you're referring to Type 2 since Type 1 usually appears in childhood). It is a complex disease with complex causes, and it does not help diabetes sufferers to have them labelled as lazy gluttons who could have prevented their (very serious) illness - NOT saying you and Twilight are doing this, but it is a slippery slope IMO.

Secondly yes, this is key and also why I've said veganism is cheap in the UK - it isn't cheap everywhere. Meat is much cheaper in the US than in the UK (grain fed v grass fed, much much more space for rearing animals etc) and food deserts are much more common. Ethnic food sources (usually the cheapest places selling things like lentils and rice and spices in bulk) are not necessarily available in such quantities from what expat friends (albeit Southerners all) say. Veganism in that context is much more expensive than in the UK.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
So it's OK to go through all the chemical process which produce pvc (or whatever it is that the shoes are made from) with the consequential pollution of the atmosphere and so forth, rather than use the product nature gave us and which has a history of millennia? Or do they all wear wooden clogs with cloth straps?

Rubbish argument. None of those problems exist because of vegans, they are polluting for reasons of profit not necessarily because they must be, modern leather and textile production are hardly environmentally friendly and the main culprit for the choking of our planet is consumerism. We replace serviceable items simply because they are arbitrarily out of fashion. Or that they have a spot on them, or are repairable, but that would require effort.(Oh No!) And because we cannot be arsed to demand cleaner production.
all more an indictment on our ethics.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Marmite is the food of the gods,

Cthulu? Apep? Which being of rotting, festering filth shat out Marmite?
There are indicators of a soul well and permanently given to the darkness and the willing ingestion of that foul substance is one of them.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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leo
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One of my friends is a vegan and I enjoy staying at his place sometimes and i eat far better and feel much healthier as a result.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:

Could you explain more fully why your family couldn't enjoy vegan meals together? There's no reason why you couldn't enjoy vegan food - my best friend is vegan, myself and her husband are not. Somehow me and her husband manage to eat well and enjoy our food when we eat vegan food together - it's just vegetables, not poison!

My son was 16 when he turned veggie. We said 'no' to vegan. He didn't argue. Since he left home twelve years ago he's not turned vegan, so it wasn't a big deal, more of a convert's enthusiasm.

We didn't want the expense or the faff of cooking vegan meals plus buying him new shoes, belts etc etc. We didn't look deeply into it tbh, there was no need. If he'd kicked up a big fuss maybe we'd have made more effort.

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Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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[tangent]
Re costs to the environment, both eggplant (aubergine) and asparagus have been shown to be be more environmentally costly than chicken produced locally. The transportation costs are more than the vegetables. Cost to the consumer varies a lot. When the vegetables are a few days from throw-out, i.e., going soft, limp and nasty, they can be cheaper than chicken.

There are some natural animal products that no synthetic beats for cold weather use. Wolf fur trim on a parka hood doesn't frost and become wet when thawed. Leather mittens layered with wool inside are cheaper and better than anything else.
[/tangent]

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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If someone in your household turns vegan, you either have to cook separate meals, or everyone else has to give up eggs, dairy, fish and meats for every meal. Sharing vegan food is fine, but not all the time if you want a different diet.

No prophet is writing from the sort of latitude where it would be very difficult to get local food with a full range of grains, pulses and nuts. Having travelled around the Faroes (holds up cross against whale law), Iceland and Norway, I've not seen much arable land. Even Shetland says that the only thing they grow well is grass, and all those places have great stacks of silage bales in the fields. Humans can't eat grass. It makes dietary sense to use animals to convert it (and other plants like reindeer lichen) into food - and not to keep more than the flora will sustain. And, if you do that, you get the byproducts of skins and wools. If you don't, you have to evacuate those areas of humans. (The gardens grow potatoes, rhubarb and angelica, from what I saw.)

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
If someone in your household turns vegan, you either have to cook separate meals, or everyone else has to give up eggs, dairy, fish and meats for every meal. Sharing vegan food is fine, but not all the time if you want a different diet.

There are very few recipes which don't include at least some milk, cream, butter, yogurt, cheese, eggs. Cutting out fish and meat are easy in comparison.

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Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Hilda of Whitby
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Back to the original question--I agree with Leorning Cniht and his point about "reasonable accommodation".

I am vegetarian myself and was a dietary vegan for quite awhile. When I travel, I do my best to find vegetarian food. Most of the time I can. If not (if I went to Shetland, for example), I eat what is available with gratitude. I do not expect to be catered to when traveling or when visiting people's homes, and I was never one of those vegans who brought my own food to other people's houses.

However, I greatly dislike it when non-vegetarians deliberately bait vegetarians/vegans, or give them food and then say "this has animals products in it. Gotcha!!" That seems really mean-spirited to me.

My husband and I often eat different things at meals--he makes his, I make mine. He likes a lot of the things I make so I make enough for him too, but I don't cook meat for him. The important thing is that we eat together.

Anyone who has teenagers who want to go vegetarian should require their kids to make their own food, if it is different than what the rest of the family is eating. Food preparation is a major life skill and the sooner kids learn to do it themselves, the better. It also makes them see that their parents are not short-order cooks.

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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."

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