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Source: (consider it) Thread: Red ken and antisemitism
Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Outside the recent Tory attacks, is anyone saying there is widespread antisemitism within the Labour party?

(Genuine question - just calibrating).

The Chief Rabbi is, though the definition he outlined was pretty damn broad. Several right-wing Labour MPs have been, because it's the latest useful stick to beat Jeremy Corbyn with.
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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

In discussing the recent issues with my mum, discovered that her boss referred to my dad once as "a pushy jew" - this would have been in the sixties before they were married, he's 79 now - she said "you didn't tell people they were racist in those days, so I just said he's not jewish".

Anecdotally, whilst I've heard plenty of racist remarks in working class circles, the only time I've personally heard anti-Jewish/Semitic remarks is from the middle classes and up, with the remarks becoming more oblique the further up the social scale one moves.
Possibly, though to what extent you are also talking about effectively class insults - new money vs old for example - is not clear.

When I was young I was taught that respectively, Jewish referred to a religious group (which you were born into via your mother's heritage), Hebrew referred to the racial group from which most Jewish people come - but you could be Hebrew without being Jewish (I think this group would now refer to themselves as atheist Jews or culturally Jewish) and Semitic referred to the peoples who are the racial groups in the middle east and surrounding areas and this includes the arabs.

In terms of direct racial prejudice, I think many or even most people would struggle to identify people of Jewish heritage by sight - if not wearing traditional dress - and many people in the younger generations would not necessarily recognise the surnames. This probably makes whatever level of prejudice there is, more difficult to spot.

For example, If I hadn't read Maureen Lipman's autobiography I wouldn't have known she is Jewish.

[ 06. May 2016, 21:33: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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OddJob
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Anecdotally, whilst I've heard plenty of racist remarks in working class circles, the only time I've personally heard anti-Jewish/Semitic remarks is from the middle classes and up, with the remarks becoming more oblique the further up the social scale one moves.

My experience too. But isn't this correlated to the socio-economic and geographical distribution of Jewish people in Britain?

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Doublethink.
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Which is another reason why anti-semitism doesn't, on the face of it, look like such a major problem. Widespread prejudice usually leads to widespread discrimination, which would normal exclude the persecuted minority from positions of power, wealth and influence.

This doesn't appear to be the current fate of the Jewish community in Britain. There have been Jewish MPs and Lords all my life, and famous and celebrated Jewish folk in many walks of life. A Jewish mayor of London would have been fairly unremarkable, but a muslim and/or a person of colour - that causes comment.

Now that I come to think of it - given the name - is Zac Goldsmith of Jewish descent ?

[ 06. May 2016, 22:54: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
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Checked that - yes he is - so I would add, that despite a fairly ill-tempered campaign, there doesn't seem to have been a slew of anti-semitic covert or overt insults chucked at him. I'd be very surprised - given the subject of this thread - if it had happened and just not been reported.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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alienfromzog

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There's been rumblings in the press for a few months. Mostly comment pieces and the issues with Oxford students.

So, I wasn't surprised when this blew up.

I have done a bit of soul-searching about this: wondering about my own biases and blind spots but basically I've come to the conclusion that it is what it smells like: bullshit.

It's a brilliant narrative with which to beat the Labour party (and Jeremy Corbyn particularly). Our media is appalling and it is well established how they will create a narrative and then only report things that fit with it. The print media lead and the broadcast media follow by reporting the story of the story. Jeremy Corbyn is under pressure due to accusations of...

I love the BBC and think we should stand up for it but their reporting of the election results has been startlingly biased against Labour.

Anyway, in other news, Sadiq Khan is now London's mayor. Despite the horrific slur campaign waged against him... [Yipee] [Yipee]

One final thought, Ken has some form in this area. I genuinely don't think him antisemetic but I do think him an idiot. A few years ago he was being harassed by a journalist. From what I've read I think Ken was very much in the right here - the guy was vindictively targeting him. Ken then used some rather unhelpful hyperbole in accusing the reporter of being like 'a concentration camp guard.' Which is inappropriate in almost all circumstances but given that the reporter in question was Jewish gave the media a lot of ammunition. As I said, Crass and Stupid.

So, now it's time for a proper investigation in to the Conservative Party's anti-Islamic position... Having watch PMQs this week, I can tell you, it goes all the way to the top...

AFZ

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Arethosemyfeet
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My impression with Livingstone is that he gets into fights and reaches for any weapon that's to hand, without stopping to think how it will look; he's just trying to bludgeon his opponent. Most of the time he can get away with that, but occasionally the weapon looks an awful lot like some pretty unpleasant prejudice, whether it's anti-Semitism or a pretty awful attitude to people with mental illness. I don't think he's actually anti-Semitic or prejudiced against people with mental illness, he just opens his mouth and his ego is too big to allow him to walk it back when he says something offensive.
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mdijon
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I think this is back to categorizing people again. Perhaps one could say that he generally doesn't say or do anti-Semitic things but on that occasion he said something anti-Semitic, or certainly that had an obvious anti-Semitic interpretation even if he didn't mean it like that, and ought to have apologized but didn't.

It reminds me of the situation where someone tries to determine the truth or not of a statement based on whether the speaker is a liar or not. Actually none of us are truthful all the time or lie all the time. While character and past record is informative it is more useful to get on with categorizing the statement as true or not true rather than going through "are you saying he's a liar?" arguments.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Martin60
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Premier Khan 2020

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:

Anyway, in other news, Sadiq Khan is now London's mayor. Despite the horrific slur campaign waged against him... [Yipee] [Yipee]

Jemima didn't much like it either.

In the racist stakes, who is the kettle and who is the pot? I think the finger of suspicion points away from the red and towards the blue.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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It's (slightly) pleasing to note that the Conservatives' campaign is now widely being discussed as having had a negative impact on their votes. In the longer run I hope that everyone, them especially, learn from it. For as long as I can remember, negative campaigning has had the reputation of blowing up in the perpetrators' face.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think this is back to categorizing people again. Perhaps one could say that he generally doesn't say or do anti-Semitic things but on that occasion he said something anti-Semitic, or certainly that had an obvious anti-Semitic interpretation even if he didn't mean it like that, and ought to have apologized but didn't.

That's a fair point, it's reasonable to look at it either way.
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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
It's (slightly) pleasing to note that the Conservatives' campaign is now widely being discussed as having had a negative impact on their votes. In the longer run I hope that everyone, them especially, learn from it. For as long as I can remember, negative campaigning has had the reputation of blowing up in the perpetrators' face.

Though given that by all accounts it was out of character from him. I can't help but feel a little sorry for him as he learns (like the Tory Imam earlier), how quickly his 'friends' vanish (with the loot) when it's convenient.
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
Though given that by all accounts it was out of character from him. I can't help but feel a little sorry for him as he learns (like the Tory Imam earlier), how quickly his 'friends' vanish (with the loot) when it's convenient.

He was either stupid or venal, so I don't feel sorry for him. Either he couldn't control his campaign and therefore doesn't have a gift for leadership, or he though this was a good idea (he made dog whistle remarks himself, after all).
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Penny S
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think this is back to categorizing people again. Perhaps one could say that he generally doesn't say or do anti-Semitic things but on that occasion he said something anti-Semitic, or certainly that had an obvious anti-Semitic interpretation even if he didn't mean it like that, and ought to have apologized but didn't.

It reminds me of the situation where someone tries to determine the truth or not of a statement based on whether the speaker is a liar or not. Actually none of us are truthful all the time or lie all the time. While character and past record is informative it is more useful to get on with categorizing the statement as true or not true rather than going through "are you saying he's a liar?" arguments.

I heard on the radio that the Jewish reporter was working for the Standard, which was then part of the same stable as Northcliffe papers which had supported Moseley and printed that the H man was a good thing before '39. Hence the choice of insult - but not the idiocy of not stopping.
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quetzalcoatl
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My wife was thinking of voting for Goldsmith (London mayoral election), as he seemed to have strong green credentials, and seemed less abrasively right-wing than other Tories. Also Khan is somewhat dull.

However, when the campaign began in earnest, we were both incredulous at the smearing racist nature of the Tory campaign. It amounted to saying don't vote for a Muslim, (hint, extremism, terrorism, blowing up buses), not really a wise approach today, I would think.

Anyway, in the end she voted Khan, and Goldsmith just looks like a patsy to the right wing racists.

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GCabot
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Outside the recent Tory attacks, is anyone saying there is widespread antisemitism within the Labour party?

(Genuine question - just calibrating).

I guess this would depend on your definition of "widespread," but some of the more prominent non-Tory persons include:

-Jeremy Newmark, national chairman of the Jewish Labour Movement
-Lord Levy, former chief fundraiser of Labour under Blair
-John McDonnell, Labour Shadow Chancellor
-Louise Ellman, one of Labour’s most senior Jewish MPs
-Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London
-Jonathan Arkush, President of the Board of Deputies, the U.K.’s main Jewish organization
-David Miliband (strongly implied, if not stated outright)
(see my post on p. 1 for links of the above)
-Ephraim Mirvis, Britain's Chief Rabbi - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/04/chief-rabbi-labour-has-severe-problem-with-antisemitism

See also numerous op-eds in the Guardian, e.g.:
Antisemitism is a Poison – The Left Must Take Leadership against It - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/15/antisemitism-israel-policies-labour-activist-vicki-kirby

Labour and the Left Have an Antisemitism Problem - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/18/labour-antisemitism-jews-jeremy-corbyn

The Guardian View on Antisemitism: Stay Vigilant on the Left Flank - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/the-guardian-view-on-antisemitism-stay-vigilant-on-the-left-flank

It’s Time the Left Faced Up to Antisemitism - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/07/hadley-freeman-labour-party-hitler-antisemitism

Of course, others here will label them all as right-wing, anti-Corbynists and dismiss the very notion an issue exists. You can decide.

[ 09. May 2016, 04:25: Message edited by: GCabot ]

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Arethosemyfeet
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Reposting the media sound and fury doesn't prove anything. My understanding is that we're now up to 18 concrete allegations of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, most of which are very recent and still under investigation. I would have expected at least a few hundred, or widespread accounts of incidents that went unreported, if this were as large a problem as is being made out. And yes, most of the people listed do have an axe to grind against Corbyn, whether because they're cheerleaders for Israel or for more general political reasons. The definition of anti-Semitism being used by the Chief Rabbi is so broad you could drive an armoured bulldozer through it.
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Doublethink.
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It may also be worth looking at percentages rather than absolute numbers, something like 500,000 folk voted in the leadership election - so I am going to guess that formal allegations & prominent incidents are involving a very low percentage of the party. Alongside the fact that Labour has prominent Jewish MPs and Lords.

As to the speed of Corbyn's response, what would people consider reasonable ?

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Doublethink.
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Mirvis says this:

quote:
He also hit back at those who argue that it is legitimate to criticise Zionism, arguing that the right to Jewish self-determination has been at the centre of the faith for more than 3,000 years.

“It is astonishing to see figures on the hard left of the British political spectrum presuming to define the relationship between Judaism and Zionism despite themselves being neither Jews nor Zionists,” he writes in the Telegraph.

“The likes of Ken Livingstone and [NUS president] Malia Boattia claim that Zionism is separate from Judaism as a faith; that is purely political; that is expansionist, colonialist and imperialist.”

This appears to frame the debate in terms of faith & Israel rather than race.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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mr cheesy
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I have to say that the Guardian has been particularly one-sided in this debate, giving plenty of space on CiF to people who want to make wider claims about anti-Semitism in Labour and nothing for anyone who says anything different.

And, honestly, I couldn't give a shit what Jonathan Freedland says about anything, given his piece about Finkelstein has been on the Guardian website since 2000.

It finishes in the following way:

"Finkelstein sees the Jews as either villains or victims - and that, I fear, takes him closer to the people who created the Holocaust than to those who suffered in it."

He compared an author who lost relatives in the holocaust to the people who killed them.

To then make claims about other people and what they wrote years ago is the height of hypocrisy.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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It's called "Comment is Free" for the very good reason that nobody would pay good money for it, mr. cheesy. The whole concept attracts the obsessive constituency from Grauniad readers and beyond, of every stripe. I gave up on it years ago, even though there is some genuinely interesting stuff on there from time to time.

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quetzalcoatl
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Everybody on the left has realized pretty quickly that the Guardian is the most ferociously anti-Corbyn newspaper around. During the leadership campaign, nearly every day saw an attack on Corbyn by one of their luminaries.

I don't know whether their editorial team is made up of Blairites or what, but nobody is surprised now, that they pursued the anti-semitism agenda, in order to blacken Corbyn, as of course, did many right-wing media.

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GCabot
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Reposting the media sound and fury doesn't prove anything. My understanding is that we're now up to 18 concrete allegations of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, most of which are very recent and still under investigation. I would have expected at least a few hundred, or widespread accounts of incidents that went unreported, if this were as large a problem as is being made out. And yes, most of the people listed do have an axe to grind against Corbyn, whether because they're cheerleaders for Israel or for more general political reasons. The definition of anti-Semitism being used by the Chief Rabbi is so broad you could drive an armoured bulldozer through it.

The people I mentioned, among others, are the very ones giving account of the otherwise-unreported, larger problem within the Labour Party. The incidents that have been publicized invariably represent a plethora of similar incidents that never become widely known. Furthermore, those involved run the gamut from MPs to local officials, University students to old Labourites, etc.—it is not as if blame can be wholly apportioned to one group on the Left.

You can continue to claim this is all part of some grand, sinister conspiracy against Mr. Corbyn, but I have yet to see any reliable evidence to corroborate that theory. Frankly, I find it baffling that you and others here are willing to dismiss any idea that a problem might exist so casually.


quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It may also be worth looking at percentages rather than absolute numbers, something like 500,000 folk voted in the leadership election - so I am going to guess that formal allegations & prominent incidents are involving a very low percentage of the party. Alongside the fact that Labour has prominent Jewish MPs and Lords.

So, anyone reporting allegations of anti-Semitism is automatically disqualified as biased if they are Jewish? I have to admit, that is a clever way of burying the problem.


quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Everybody on the left has realized pretty quickly that the Guardian is the most ferociously anti-Corbyn newspaper around. During the leadership campaign, nearly every day saw an attack on Corbyn by one of their luminaries.

I don't know whether their editorial team is made up of Blairites or what, but nobody is surprised now, that they pursued the anti-semitism agenda, in order to blacken Corbyn, as of course, did many right-wing media.

Well, the last time I checked, the Guardian was still the most representative of the Labour Party out of the reputable British papers. I have yet to see the evidence that the Guardian has some ax to grind against Corbyn, rather than merely reflecting the reasoned opinion of a significant part of Labour. Would it have been better if I had cited the Morning Star instead?

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
Frankly, I find it baffling that you and others here are willing to dismiss any idea that a problem might exist so casually.

I'm not sure anyone is saying that there is no problem. What people are saying is that the appearance of a problem has been inflated for political reasons (to try and put Corbyn in a difficult situation). Part of that inflation is a blurring of the lines between criticism of the actions of the government of Israel, anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, resulting in a large number of people critical is the actions of the government of Israel being called anti-semitic.

But, it is an inflation of a problem - and, there are some antisemites within the Labour Party. There are two questions that immediately follow - 1) is the proportion of anti-semites within the Labour Party significantly different from other political parties and the wider British population? (ie: is it a Labour Party problem or a British one?), and 2) are the procedures within the Labour Party to discipline genuine anti-semites adequate? (is action rapid enough, are the actions taken sufficient?)

Personally, it looks very much like the Labour Party has a level of anti-semitism that is representative of the UK as a whole, and that ultimately we as a nation need to deal with the anti-semitism in our midst (and, that includes having media that report the anti-semitism in other political parties rather than just focussing on Labour). And, that is part of a wider streak of xenophobia, racism and other bigotry.

It also looks like when someone is accused of anti-semitism there is a rapid investigation within the Labour Party, in the more serious cases with a suspension of membership while that takes place. Which doesn't look like a tardiness to deal with anti-semitism. Of course, a fair investigation takes time, so the actual formal expulsion from the party if found to be guilty is a bit slower. But, I don't think any of us want to have excessively rapid punishment following every newspaper article that takes something out of context and spins an innocuous remark into a charge of anti-semitism. Trial be media is not justice, whatever the circumstances.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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I agree with your assessment of the extent of the problem, Alan, and that it has been blown out of all proportion. But I would return to what mdijon said earlier, which is that it is more helpful to identify rhetoric that is anti-semitic, rather than try to identify anti-semites. Maybe the latter exist in the Labour party (I'm not sure), but it's the way of framing things that seems to be causing the problem.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It may also be worth looking at percentages rather than absolute numbers, something like 500,000 folk voted in the leadership election - so I am going to guess that formal allegations & prominent incidents are involving a very low percentage of the party. Alongside the fact that Labour has prominent Jewish MPs and Lords.

So, anyone reporting allegations of anti-Semitism is automatically disqualified as biased if they are Jewish? I have to admit, that is a clever way of burying the problem.

I think you should re-read the original, it doesn't say what it appears you think it is saying.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged



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