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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: When we were young - history written by the survivors
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Colleagues in community health care have noted a number of teenage girls attending for STD screens who have clearly been pressured into doing something they felt uncomfortable about, and very distressed about the boy bragging to the rest of the school.
I suspect that the public aspect (bragging, shaming, bullying) is usually more damaging than the sexual activity itself.
And this does not even require pressure or reluctance. A willing consent can still result in this, largely because of the inequity in which sexual activity is viewed depending on gender.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I meant there, specifically, sexual 'relationships' (dubious word in this context)/ encounters between adults and children or young adolescents. There's a spectrum in 'relationships' within an age group, sure, but that's a bit different.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
FWIW I don't recall cycling helmets being available in 1972.
Oh for the era when transplant surgeons used to refer to cyclists as "organ donors"... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Which they did. The increase in helmets cut down their supply of fresh, youthful organs cut from still-living but brain-dead bodies quite dramatically.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
There's a social/ cultural/ structural aspect to that, of course. The only time I went to Amsterdam I don't think I saw a single cyclist in a helmet there. That was over 10 years ago and it may be that things have changed- no doubt there are shipmates who can tell me whether they have- but I imagine that that reflected a way of ordering the streets, and perhaps a highway code, that prioritises the cyclist. Here we take the view that in this instance, as perhaps in many others, risk is to be minimised by personal rather than by collective action.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
FWIW I don't recall cycling helmets being available in 1972.
Oh for the era when transplant surgeons used to refer to cyclists as "organ donors"...
Which they did. The increase in helmets cut down their supply of fresh, youthful organs cut from still-living but brain-dead bodies quite dramatically.
My first summer job, just before starting college, was at a restaurant. On my last day, the owners decided they wanted to wash their plastic grabage bin at a local car wash, and so got me to SIT IN THE TRUNK OF A CAR and pull it behind me.
Obviously, that was pretty dangerous, and is NOT something that you would want to do today, for legal reasons alone. Though, thinking about it, getting hit by another car while riding in that trunk probably wouldn't be any worse that getting hit by a car while cycling on the road without a helmet. Which was pretty much the norm in those days.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
FWIW I don't recall cycling helmets being available in 1972.
Oh for the era when transplant surgeons used to refer to cyclists as "organ donors"...
Which they did. The increase in helmets cut down their supply of fresh, youthful organs cut from still-living but brain-dead bodies quite dramatically.
Motorcyclists. With or without helmets, motorcycling has a high death rate, something like 30 times that of driving. I doubt cyclists have ever been seen as a useful supply of organs since cycling is about as safe as walking. I'm not aware, either, of any clear evidence that helmets reduce the death and serious injury rates of cyclists.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Actually, I've been trying to think of people I have been at school or university with dying in accidents of any sort, and I've drawn a blank.
I hear of accidents, of course, but that may reflect the interest people take in the news. To get a reliable picture you need to define your cohort first and then work out the death rate. And, thinking about members of churches I've been in, classmates of my children, relatives, and work colleagues of close family members, I can come up with just one accidental death. Plenty of deaths from illness, a couple of suicides, and no murders.
It used to be, if I remember correctly, that about 1 in 200 of us would die in a car accident, but the figure is far lower now.
I think we are unduly risk averse. It's not a bad fault for a parent, though.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Today's google doodle, at least in Korea, is a tribute to Jane Jacobs.
I recently read a portion of her book The Death And Life Of Great American Cities, published in 1961. One of the arguments she makes is that, contrary to the beliefs of professional planners, building parks is not a surefire way to provide kids with a safer and healthier enviroment than they get on the much maligned "street".
Jacobs observes that, in urban areas where kids play a lot on the sidewalk, they are subject to casual supervision by the adults sitting on the front steps of apartment blocks, in stores, etc. Whereas in many places where parks have been built with the express purpose of providing safe spaces for play, they are either avoided by kids, or become magnets for "perverts"(her terminology) or juvenile delinquents.
Jacobs does outline conditions which, if met, can lead to successful parks, but I don't have the time, space or memory to go into them here.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Merchant Trader
Shipmate
# 9007
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Posted
I think there are two common themes here
1) Transparency
- some things were hidden that when see the light of day are revealed as unacceptable
- some things we know about which change our perception of risk as although the probability has changed, hearing about all the instances change our perception of the probability e.g. deaths from injury on a school activity (possibly less instances but you bet they all get reported)
2) Risk acceptance
-some things we didn't know about we would regard as unacceptable and the risk as unacceptable - a goal zero
- some things where the risk was accepted we have a lower risk tolerance e.g. accidents where doing adventurous activity - almost in denial that the risk is part of the satisfaction
I still want to go hill walking although there is some risk ... there is something to achieve which will only give me satisfaction if I overcome the risks.
Does zero risk mean that we will become inactive blobs with only our brain working - everything else is done for us? I have a horrible vision of humans in a film - I think it was called Wal-Ee
I wonder whether the underlying cause of the decrease in risk tolerance is the decrease in faith and the belief that this is the only life?
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... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds
Posts: 1328 | Registered: Jan 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
One good thing that has been lost, however, is the opportunity for kids to invent their own games and make up their own rules...
...I think it was better when I was in elementary school in the 1940s. The teachers considered it part of their job to teach us ethics, including how we should treat each other.
I'm late to this, but I want to pick up on two points Moo made on the last page, not to find fault but as an encouragement.
Both my kids (8 and 11) make up their own games, though perhaps they 'play out' less than I did when I was that age (1980 / 82). Their school lets kids stay on (so long as a parent is there - or else you have to pay! So I take a book) and play in the yard and field 'til 5:30, and they always want to stay. They make up games together, and go to a church youth club where the kids are encouraged to be (to my mind) feral. And the school (RC primary) is hotter on ethics than the 3Rs, which is how I like it. So there's hope.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
cycling is about as safe as walking
It's about as twice as unsafe. The Killed and Serious Injury ratio is 556 per billion km for cyclists, and 394 for pedestrians.
As for your other assertions, I'll have to tell my consultant anaesthetist friend his experience, and those of his colleges, is merely anecdotal.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
cycling is about as safe as walking
It's about as twice as unsafe. The Killed and Serious Injury ratio is 556 per billion km for cyclists, and 394 for pedestrians.
As for your other assertions, I'll have to tell my consultant anaesthetist friend his experience, and those of his colleges, is merely anecdotal.
556 is nearer to 394 than to twice 394. That's 1.4 times as unsafe on those figures (there are plenty of others).
And, yes, isn't all our experience anecdotal as evidence?
[ 03. May 2016, 18:34: Message edited by: hatless ]
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It's about as twice as unsafe. The Killed and Serious Injury ratio is 556 per billion km for cyclists, and 394 for pedestrians.
As for your other assertions, I'll have to tell my consultant anaesthetist friend his experience, and those of his colleges, is merely anecdotal.
As an absolute risk that is staggeringly low. I wonder if there is a statistically significant difference between two such very low risks.
Of course his experience is anecdotal. It is not borne out by some studies but may be by others, albeit with quite weak effect sizes.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
No one dies using bike shares, and they also don't wear helmets. There are also risks with tree climbing, skiing, rock climbing and using an axe.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
As an absolute risk that is staggeringly low. I wonder if there is a statistically significant difference between two such very low risks.
For cars, it was 83 in 2012.
[ 03. May 2016, 19:45: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
A Ben Goldacre article about whether bike helmets help reduce injuries. He concludes that it's complicated, and the popularity of helmets might not be because of "their direct benefits — which seem too modest to capture compared with other strategies — but more with the cultural, psychological, and political aspects of popular debate around risk."
Which I guess shows how it can be tricky to analyse social effects, even on a contemporary issue with access to hard statistics.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Well, mine stopped me from eating through a straw a couple of times. I was very happy it was there, considering the amount of damage I sustained to the rest of me...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
A Ben Goldacre article about whether bike helmets help reduce injuries. He concludes that it's complicated,
I agree that it is complicated and the other strategies do more to reduce injury. To do a definitive study, one would need the same type of rider on the same surfaces in the same conditions. The perfect test would be professional cyclists. Good luck getting a control group to not wear helmets, though.
I suppose one could develop a software model to compare the potential for injury, but it isn't really that much of a bother to just wear a helmet.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
No one dies using bike shares, and they also don't wear helmets.
If one reads the article you link, it does not draw the conclusion that helmets are therefor useless.
quote:
There are also risks with tree climbing, skiing, rock climbing and using an axe.
Living is the most hazardous activity: Everyone who is alive will die!
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, mine stopped me from eating through a straw a couple of times. I was very happy it was there, considering the amount of damage I sustained to the rest of me...
The one day I didn't wear mine I skidded off next to the Civic Centre and got a nice cut smacking my head on the pavement. I've been more careful since then.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, mine stopped me from eating through a straw a couple of times. I was very happy it was there, considering the amount of damage I sustained to the rest of me...
The one day I didn't wear mine I skidded off next to the Civic Centre and got a nice cut smacking my head on the pavement. I've been more careful since then.
The corner by Northumbria? There was a rim-cracking trench there, left over from some pipe work, for ages.
(local knowledge for local people)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The only time I went to Amsterdam I don't think I saw a single cyclist in a helmet there. That was over 10 years ago and it may be that things have changed- no doubt there are shipmates who can tell me whether they have- but I imagine that that reflected a way of ordering the streets, and perhaps a highway code, that prioritises the cyclist.
There are probably a few more helmets around these days, but it's often a case of "spot the foreigner". Sports cyclists will always wear a helmet but most regular commuters don't. In most places bicycles don't share the roads with cars though, so you can't really make a fair comparison.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
That last point, about bicycles not sharing the road with cars, is what I thought made the difference. That and perhaps - am I right?- the legal presumption that in a collision between a bike and a car the car driver is to blame? As I say, a collective rather than an individual approach to dealing with risk.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To do a definitive study, one would need the same type of rider on the same surfaces in the same conditions. The perfect test would be professional cyclists.
Or a very pragmatic real-world approach where you just compare the odds of serious head injury among helmet-wearers and non-helmet-wearers. There are some biases involved in that, but at least it is applicable to the real world. A very tightly controlled experimental approach doesn't necessarily tell you what will actually happen in real life (even if it were possible to do in this instance).
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
As an absolute risk that is staggeringly low. I wonder if there is a statistically significant difference between two such very low risks.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
For cars, it was 83 in 2012.
I'd guess that really is lower - a seven-fold decrease seems like a pretty big difference even at those low rates.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I wonder how the dangers of staircases, often straight and steep in UK houses, compares. I've never seen it discussed.
I'm just grabbing it as a likely example of something we don't worry about, but which is more dangerous than many things we obsess over.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Well, I don't know: see THIS - admittedly in a public place rather than a house.
(However, the sign itself may provoke high blood pressure leading to cardiac arrest in those of a pedantic grammatical disposition).
The dangers of falling down stairs are the meat-and-drink of programmes such as "Casualty"; and, of course, the careful placing of a child's toy or other object at the top of the stairs is the staple of making-a-murder-look-like-an-accident dramas.
[ 04. May 2016, 06:50: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It used to be, if I remember correctly, that about 1 in 200 of us would die in a car accident, but the figure is far lower now.
I think that
this says it all - especially when one remembers the ever-increasing volumes of traffic. Charts like this are all too easily ignored by the "health and safety gone mad" folk.
Equally it was reported on the national news last week that a construction worker had died on the new Forth Bridge project. Yet at least 57 - and possibly many more - died in the building of the famous railway bridge; this was almost accepted as the necessary adjunct to large engineering projects. Standards have changed for the better.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
My mums bridesmaid and family used to come and stay with us, when I was very young. The father was killed in a car accident which changed the dynamics rather, and sent the family into something of a tailspin. But people dying in car accidents was just part of life (this would have been mid 1960s. He would have been in his 30s). You just accepted it, in a way that we don't today. Yes it happens, but nothing like as often.
A friend of mine came off his bike recently. He lost consciousness and only remembers the bike starting to slip and then waking up in hospital. If he hadn't been wearing a helmet, he wouldn't have woken up.
Anecdotal evidence, yes. But the "nanny state" might have stopped one family disintegrating, and definitely stopped another one from losing a much loved member. Is it worth the many fights with children to wear helmets to save this one person? The family think so.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Elf 'n' safety gorn mad isn't new.
At the turn of the C20th there was a suggestion that TB was being spread by schoolchildren spitting on their slates to clean them. There was a proposal that sponges dampened with clean water should be used instead.
This prompted the following "letter to the editor" in 1904
“A few foolish rules to observe, a whole lot of hygienic quirks to adjust to, a schedule of superstitious sanitary notions diligently followed by day dreamed of by night, is a malady which begins as a mental derangement and ends in a complete physical “fizzle” No room is left for a spontaneous life."
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And the engineering in cars has made surviving an auto accident much more likely now that it has ever been. My daughter was in one yesterday. She rolled her SUV over =seven= times. It came to a halt on its wheels, and she opened the door and stepped out. Side-impact airbags and a seat belt saved her life. Her main complaint today is that she will need a new cell phone and a new car.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
]
A friend of mine came off his bike recently. He lost consciousness and only remembers the bike starting to slip and then waking up in hospital. If he hadn't been wearing a helmet, he wouldn't have woken up.
Anecdotal evidence, yes. But the "nanny state" might have stopped one family disintegrating, and definitely stopped another one from losing a much loved member. Is it worth the many fights with children to wear helmets to save this one person? The family think so.
Might we also require sunhats, sensible shoes, and no running with scissors? And don't mow the lawn with bare feet.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think you have to get to a tipping point where the impact (financial and otherwise) of a particular kind of accident gets great enough that it's judged worth creating a law for.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Which is precisely what the people who run the railways, and so on, do- perfectly sensibly IMO. Not just changing law, changing operating practices too.
[ 04. May 2016, 18:52: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think you have to get to a tipping point where the impact (financial and otherwise) of a particular kind of accident gets great enough that it's judged worth creating a law for.
I think there is also something about the streets and sidewalks being government owned that makes unsafe cycling somewhat different than, say, running with scissors in the privacy of your own home.
I can't really put my finger on the logic, except by way of a rough analogy: At home, I'm allowed to drink milk that has been sitting in the sun surrounded by a swarm of houseflies for three days. But a publically regulated restaurant isn't allowed to serve that to me, even if I am willing to drink it.
And, factor in that, unlike the restaurants, roads and sidewalks are actually owned by the government, and you've probably got an even stronger case for their being subject to greater regulation than is common in the private sphere.
[ 04. May 2016, 19:11: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The only time I went to Amsterdam I don't think I saw a single cyclist in a helmet there. That was over 10 years ago and it may be that things have changed- no doubt there are shipmates who can tell me whether they have- but I imagine that that reflected a way of ordering the streets, and perhaps a highway code, that prioritises the cyclist.
There are probably a few more helmets around these days, but it's often a case of "spot the foreigner". Sports cyclists will always wear a helmet but most regular commuters don't. In most places bicycles don't share the roads with cars though, so you can't really make a fair comparison.
(tangent) Don't share the road??? Last time I was in Amsterdam, 2 years ago, commuting almost exclusively via bike, it was ALL sharing the road with cars, buses, and trollies. And very much "spot the foreigner" cuz I found it terrifying and the natives seemed quite impatient with my timidity. More stressful than commuting on the 110 fwy, which is saying a lot.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I think there is also something about the streets and sidewalks being government owned that makes unsafe cycling somewhat different than, say, running with scissors in the privacy of your own home.
I can't really put my finger on the logic
The logic is one of liability and scale. If you run with scissors in your house, you're a danger to yourself. If you run with scissors down the street, you're a danger to a lot more people, who don't share a house with you. Likewise, dodgy milk. You can choose to serve yourself with it. You don't get to choose to serve it to other people.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
I had a rather shocking reminder today that even scissors fairly carefully cutting are only a loud noise from swinging (open) at someones head as the rest of the body turns.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Likewise, dodgy milk. You can choose to serve yourself with it. You don't get to choose to serve it to other people. [/QB]
But, that's why, in my example, I specified that the customer knows how long the milk has been sitting in the sun. A restaurant owner can't get himself off the hook by saying "I tell all my customers about the stuff that doesn't meet the Health Code, so they know what they're consuming".
And a cyclist who goes without a helmet is really no harm to anyone but himself. When he goes flying off his bike after being hit by a car, it's his head, and his head alone, that hits the pavement.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There is data that cyclists wearing helmets are passed more closely by cars that those not. The wearing of the reduces participation and willingness to cycle. They also contribute to perceptions that cycling is inherently dangerous.
There are other things that are adverse for safety. "Share the Road" campaigns are also problematic because car drivers are more apt to perceive bicycles as vehicles and equal to cars. Bikes are to cars as tigers are to house cats.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Cycle helmets are not compulsory in the UK.
Well, in places where they are, the logic behind the obligation probably goes as I outlined.
I'm sure you could think of similar discrepancies between private and public behaviour, in terms of how each are regulated, in the UK.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And a cyclist who goes without a helmet is really no harm to anyone but himself. When he goes flying off his bike after being hit by a car, it's his head, and his head alone, that hits the pavement.
But it can also be another car driver who catches them and they die. I suspect it is the interaction with others that makes the difference - others with whom one does not have a care relationship.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I used to be part of a campaign group that wanted the motorcycle crash helmet law repealed. Felt is was a big deal at the time, all seems a tad silly looking back now. I suppose there was a principle at stake.
I do sometimes wonder if the drive to eliminate all risk from our lives hasn't somehow resulted in a form of melancholy.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And a cyclist who goes without a helmet is really no harm to anyone but himself. When he goes flying off his bike after being hit by a car, it's his head, and his head alone, that hits the pavement.
But it can also be another car driver who catches them and they die. I suspect it is the interaction with others that makes the difference - others with whom one does not have a care relationship.
If you mean that a car owner could die after being hit by an un-helmeted cyclist flying through the air, I think that reasoning might apply to seat belts, but not to bike helmets.
If I'm driving a car without wearing a seat belt, and I get hit, I can be killed or seriously injured, which would cause me to lose control of the wheel and send the car careening down the road, endangering others.
But a bike helmet doesn't help you keep control of your bike, it only protects you AFTER you've been sent flying through the air. So, whether I hit the other car with a helmet on my head, or without a helmet on my head, probably doesn't make much difference in terms of preventing another accident.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I knew a bus driver who was driving behind a cyclist who had his hands in his pockets. The bicycle hit a pot-hole, he came off and went under the bus wheels and died. The driver has that with him for the rest of his life and has anxiety attacks 10 years later. He probably was too close, but it was a busy road in rush hour traffic.
I'm a non-helmet-wearer myself but I can see the arguments for enforcing safety standards for everyone's benefit. Although I'm not convinced that helmets make an important enough difference to worry about.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
As an absolute risk that is staggeringly low. I wonder if there is a statistically significant difference between two such very low risks.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
For cars, it was 83 in 2012.
I'd guess that really is lower - a seven-fold decrease seems like a pretty big difference even at those low rates.
Although the stats are for injuries/deaths per billion km - and a car is going to clock up more km in the same time period than the others.
If I reckon that around town I cycle about three times as fast as I walk, and drive about three times as fast as I cycle, then the risk I'm taking per minute would be in the ratio:
747:1668:394 for drive:cycle:walk.
Driving is about twice as risky as walking, and cycling about four times.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I cycle to work about twice a week. Once there was ice on the bridge. I flipped like a pancake and came down on my head. My helmet saved my life.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
As an absolute risk that is staggeringly low. I wonder if there is a statistically significant difference between two such very low risks.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
For cars, it was 83 in 2012.
I'd guess that really is lower - a seven-fold decrease seems like a pretty big difference even at those low rates.
I'd be shocked if there wasn't such a big difference between cars and bikes. Someone travelling down the road with a great big metal box around them is going to have less risk of injury than someone travelling down the road with virtually no protection from impacts - that's just obvious.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Stetson - no I mean that I as a car driver might catch a cyclist. They then fall, and because they aren't wearing a helmet they die (or are seriously injured).
The driver - assuming they are broadly innocent - then has a guilty conscience, which impacts them.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Although the stats are for injuries/deaths per billion km - and a car is going to clock up more km in the same time period than the others.
I guess the point is what decision one is going to take on the basis of these figures. The choices are rarely going to be 10 minutes of cycling vs 10 minutes of driving - rather between driving to the shops versus cycling to the shops.
However the other figures that aren't in this are the effects on personal fitness, on community risk, fumes, the environment etc.
It seems to me that given the very low risks for most journeys then personal fitness is likely to become very important as a consideration.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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