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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What is cheap grace?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: But in the sense we generally use "salvation"-- the sense it seems to be used here, the narrower sense of "saved from eternal damnation/ separation from God
I don't ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I think this is a useless way to think of the term 'salvation'.
Well, unless others are concerned about it and specifically asking about it. Although I may be jumping to the conclusion that that is how others on this thread are using it due to my evangelical context.
That's certainly how I'm using it.
Yeah but do you believe it?
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Love wins
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Marvin the Martian: That's certainly how I'm using it.
So, my answer to your questions on this thread would be: that's not a very helpful definition of salvation.
Helpful for what?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeah but do you believe it?
That salvation means "saved from eternal damnation"? Yes. That's exactly what I believe it means.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: Helpful for what?
For anything.
Your earlier questions seem to come down to: what is the minimum I should do to get what I want, and why would I want to do anything more than that? I don't think this is a helpful approach to Christianity.
[ 13. May 2016, 18:53: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeah but do you believe it?
That salvation means "saved from eternal damnation"? Yes. That's exactly what I believe it means.
Didn't you just insist that no one on this thread held that view???
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Absolutely. Still do.
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nobody here is an ancient Egyptian.
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Love wins
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I think that at this stage in the discussion, it would be very hepful if that meaning makes no sense to you, that you could explain what "salvation" does mean to you. It will avoid a lot of talking at cross purposes.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nah Honest, that would spoil the fun. There is no confusion. Only pre and post modernism. The fun being the pre pretending that it doesn't know what the post is talking about. Know what I mean?
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Love wins
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
No - sorry - absolutely no idea.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nah Honest, that would spoil the fun. There is no confusion. Only pre and post modernism. The fun being the pre pretending that it doesn't know what the post is talking about. Know what I mean?
Accusing another poster of deliberately pretending not to understand constitutes a personal attack. Being deliberately obscure about it constitutes jerkdom.
Both are against our Ten Commandments.
Persisting down this road will attract Admin attention. Know what I mean?
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sir.
Back to the thread if I may: postmodernly salvation is from the human condition. Weak, ignorant, fearful, innocently feckless mortality aka 'sin'. From meaninglessness apart from what we're deluded and privileged enough to come up with. In Christ we have the PROMISE that all will be well. In Him we have NOTHING absolute or authoritative or known in ANY way about life after death, apart from OUR dispositional response to the completely culturally constrained metaphoric words He used and imputation of His actual thoughts and motives in using them.
Reading Steve Chalke's Radical he compares the Christian take on God - love - with the Muslim - merciful.
Any take that takes the meaning of salvation as being in any way from eternal damnation (unless that just means the failing of consciousness) is not the take of love. Which is the take of historical, traditional and dominant Christianity even now. Islam is cleaner.
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Love wins
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Back to the thread if I may: postmodernly salvation is from the human condition. Weak, ignorant, fearful, innocently feckless mortality aka 'sin'.
Humans are not always 'innocently feckless': they can be deliberately cruel and malicious.
quote:
Any take that takes the meaning of salvation as being in any way from eternal damnation (unless that just means the failing of consciousness) is not the take of love. Which is the take of historical, traditional and dominant Christianity even now. Islam is cleaner.
Islam also has doctrines of hell, damnation and judgement. I'm not seeing why it should be spared critique.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Our deliberate cruelty and malice IS fecklessly innocent.
Islam is cleaner BECAUSE of hell, damnation and judgment. It isn't pretentious, hypocritical the way half-baked Christianity is. Allah is a God to fear and obey that one might receive His mercy. As He was to the Jews.
The Christian God, the pre-Islamic, post-Jewish, Allah in fact, all too often, historically and currently in the very main, offers NO alternative, no transcendence of that.
Justin, Andrew and George are pious, just warmongers. Watered down Jews and Muslims.
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Love wins
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeah but do you believe it?
That salvation means "saved from eternal damnation"? Yes. That's exactly what I believe it means.
Didn't you just insist that no one on this thread held that view???
No, that was Martin.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeah but do you believe it?
That salvation means "saved from eternal damnation"? Yes. That's exactly what I believe it means.
Didn't you just insist that no one on this thread held that view???
No, that was Martin.
It's a bit like explain plan in SQL. Start with the innermost indent and step down left.
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Love wins
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Your earlier questions seem to come down to: what is the minimum I should do to get what I want, and why would I want to do anything more than that? I don't think this is a helpful approach to Christianity.
Why not? It works in most other areas of life.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Your earlier questions seem to come down to: what is the minimum I should do to get what I want, and why would I want to do anything more than that? I don't think this is a helpful approach to Christianity.
Why not? It works in most other areas of life.
Marriage? Dude.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Justification (being saved by faith through grace) is followed by sanctification (discipleship, living faithfully). They are two different things.
An example from a local driving custom: when you show another driver mercy, for example by letting him into your lane when he's stuck behind a stalled car, he would be expected to acknowledge this small mercy with a hand wave. Letting the guy in is justification by grace; the hand wave is discipleship. If the driver knows this custom and does it, grace is acknowledged. But if the driver knows it and doesn't give a fuck, guess what? He still has grace; he is still ahead of you, enjoying the mercy shown while being a douchebag.
In theological language, his deliberate lack of acknowledgment communicates his belief in cheap grace. Saying "thank you" for a gift is a recognition that it is a gift; not saying "thank you" when you know better still does not change the nature of the gift or its receipt. It just means you're a douche.
Really, I don't understand why people think sanctification is such a burden, or discipleship, or living a Christian life, or whatever you want to call the acknowledgment bit. You might be called on to take up a cross, but for most things it's as easy as the driver's handwave of acknowledgment! Why would you not want to do it?
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Your earlier questions seem to come down to: what is the minimum I should do to get what I want, and why would I want to do anything more than that? I don't think this is a helpful approach to Christianity.
Why not? It works in most other areas of life.
Are we going to have a serious discussion here?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Your earlier questions seem to come down to: what is the minimum I should do to get what I want, and why would I want to do anything more than that? I don't think this is a helpful approach to Christianity.
Why not? It works in most other areas of life.
What if it turns out that it's the same as asking what is the minimum I should do to be happy?
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Spose you could think in terms of cheapening grace. Say you mess up, hurt someone - you can receive Christ's forgiveness freely and graciously given. But if you make no effort to make amends, clean your mess up, make restitution (whatever term you prefer) then you've cheapened grace. Grace isn't just about you getting to a happy place with God - it's Christ's life let loose in the world to redeem it.
Thank you! This makes a good deal of sense to me as I am going through something similar in my own life at the moment. Sigh...I guess this means that I can't avoid the person to whom I must make amends with...I'm such a chicken sh*t that I don't want to talk with this person, even though I am getting a strong push from God that this is exactly what S/He wants me to do!
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeah but do you believe it?
That salvation means "saved from eternal damnation"? Yes. That's exactly what I believe it means.
Didn't you just insist that no one on this thread held that view???
No, that was Martin.
It's a bit like explain plan in SQL. Start with the innermost indent and step down left.
Sorry my bad. In my defense I just had cataract surgery yesterday so hopefully reading ability will improve
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
An example from a local driving custom: when you show another driver mercy, for example by letting him into your lane when he's stuck behind a stalled car, he would be expected to acknowledge this small mercy with a hand wave. Letting the guy in is justification by grace; the hand wave is discipleship. If the driver knows this custom and does it, grace is acknowledged. But if the driver knows it and doesn't give a fuck, guess what? He still has grace; he is still ahead of you, enjoying the mercy shown while being a douchebag.
I think that in order to make the analogy work you'd have to require the driver who has been let in to subsequently let any other stuck drivers he might meet go ahead of him.
And to fully complete the analogy you'd also have to say that if he chooses not to wave or not to let others in ahead of him then he gets his tires slashed and his fuel tank filled with sugar so that he can't go anywhere ever again. Because being given the grace to continue on his journey wasn't really a free gift, it was conditional on him behaving "properly" afterwards.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Your earlier questions seem to come down to: what is the minimum I should do to get what I want, and why would I want to do anything more than that? I don't think this is a helpful approach to Christianity.
Why not? It works in most other areas of life.
Are we going to have a serious discussion here?
If meeting an assertion with another assertion isn't serious discussion, then by all means feel free to explain why you think it isn't helpful rather than simply repeating the assertion over and over again.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
What if it turns out that it's the same as asking what is the minimum I should do to be happy?
Your question assumes that "what is the minimum I should do to be happy?" is a nonsensical question, but I'm not convinced that it is. I certainly don't think that happiness requires constant lifelong effort to achieve.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Your earlier questions seem to come down to: what is the minimum I should do to get what I want, and why would I want to do anything more than that? I don't think this is a helpful approach to Christianity.
Why not? It works in most other areas of life.
What if it turns out that it's the same as asking what is the minimum I should do to be happy?
The problem with both versions is it assumes that the "doing" is onerous-- a dreary duty that is undertaken to obtain some future good. But the Christian belief is that the "doing" itself is life-- the only life worth living. It is the "doing" itself which is the end goal, the reward itself.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The problem with both versions is it assumes that the "doing" is onerous-- a dreary duty that is undertaken to obtain some future good.
Yep. Must be all that self-denial and avoidance of the many pleasures this world has to offer that does it.
quote:
But the Christian belief is that the "doing" itself is life-- the only life worth living.
That's a belief for which there is little evidence. There are a great many non-Christians who have lives that appear to very much be worth living.
quote:
It is the "doing" itself which is the end goal, the reward itself.
If it was really so rewarding then we wouldn't need religion to convince us to do it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The problem with both versions is it assumes that the "doing" is onerous-- a dreary duty that is undertaken to obtain some future good.
Yep. Must be all that self-denial and avoidance of the many pleasures this world has to offer that does it.
quote:
But the Christian belief is that the "doing" itself is life-- the only life worth living.
That's a belief for which there is little evidence. There are a great many non-Christians who have lives that appear to very much be worth living.
Agreed. Generally, by doing the things that precise same things-- caring for others, service, etc.-- that are considered onerous when one is objecting to Christian discipleship.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There are a great many non-Christians who have lives that appear to very much be worth living.
Agreed. Generally, by doing the things that precise same things-- caring for others, service, etc.-- that are considered onerous when one is objecting to Christian discipleship.
I was thinking more along the lines of people like Hugh Hefner, Bernie Ecclestone, Roman Abramovich and so on. The sort of life that gets one branded as a "millionaire playboy" seems eminently worth living to me!
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Hail Gallaxhar
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Yes, as all the great philosophers say, "a life of excess and shagging is the only one worth living."
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arse
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There are a great many non-Christians who have lives that appear to very much be worth living.
Agreed. Generally, by doing the things that precise same things-- caring for others, service, etc.-- that are considered onerous when one is objecting to Christian discipleship.
I was thinking more along the lines of people like Hugh Hefner, Bernie Ecclestone, Roman Abramovich and so on. The sort of life that gets one branded as a "millionaire playboy" seems eminently worth living to me!
I suppose that's the mystery, eh? Some seem to relentlessly pursue a life of carnal pleasure, while others relentlessly pursue a life of discipline and discipleship. And others, like Augustine, seem to willingly trade the one for the other. We can but speculate on who is truly happy.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yes, as all the great philosophers say, "a life of excess and shagging is the only one worth living."
I don't recall making any comments about any one lifestyle being the only one worth living. What's wrong with there being many different lives that are worth living?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't recall making any comments about any one lifestyle being the only one worth living. What's wrong with there being many different lives that are worth living?
I think pretty much all the philosophers have had thoughts about which life is worth living (and which not) at least since Plato/Socrates. The unexamined life and all that.
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arse
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yes, as all the great philosophers say, "a life of excess and shagging is the only one worth living."
I don't recall making any comments about any one lifestyle being the only one worth living. What's wrong with there being many different lives that are worth living?
I suppose worth is always in the eye of the beholder. So, having chosen one life over another, if one is happy with their choice, they're always going to think there's was the one that was "worth it." And the higher the stakes, the more entrenched that belief will be. But there's really no way of measuring-- even if we could somehow measure "happiness" or "joy" (assuming that's the definition of "worth it"-- which it might not be) it's impossible to measure on an individual basis what that happiness quotient would be in some hypothetical other life.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And the higher the stakes, the more entrenched that belief will be.
well, there's the rub. If Grace (and salvation) are freely given to all then there are no stakes, because there is no gamble.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And the higher the stakes, the more entrenched that belief will be.
well, there's the rub. If Grace (and salvation) are freely given to all then there are no stakes, because there is no gamble.
(sigh) Again, only if you view discipleship as "tedious" or burdensome. If, however, you believe (as I do) that the life of discipleship is the best possible life for you, then you will pursue it, even if you believe (as I do) that grace and salvation are freely given to all.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
What if it turns out that it's the same as asking what is the minimum I should do to be happy?
Your question assumes that "what is the minimum I should do to be happy?" is a nonsensical question, but I'm not convinced that it is. I certainly don't think that happiness requires constant lifelong effort to achieve.
It's not that I assume it's nonsensical, it's that I think you are assuming that there is nothing more to salvation than a binary "saved" vs. "not saved." It is binary, but there very well could be a lot more to it than that. Do you think that everyone saved will be equally happy in whatever form of eternal life there is? That how happy each saved individual will be will have nothing to do with that person's choices?
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Your earlier questions seem to come down to: what is the minimum I should do to get what I want, and why would I want to do anything more than that? I don't think this is a helpful approach to Christianity.
Why not? It works in most other areas of life.
What if it turns out that it's the same as asking what is the minimum I should do to be happy?
The problem with both versions is it assumes that the "doing" is onerous-- a dreary duty that is undertaken to obtain some future good. But the Christian belief is that the "doing" itself is life-- the only life worth living. It is the "doing" itself which is the end goal, the reward itself.
As far as I can tell, that's a conclusion that some people manage to reach only after struggling to live according to their beliefs rather than according to their nature. I don't think any of us manages to start off with that view. In fact, my belief is that one way to describe what we need to be saved from is the natural inclination we are each born with to mistakenly believe that our happiness is something we can best figure out and achieve on our own.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The problem with both versions is it assumes that the "doing" is onerous-- a dreary duty that is undertaken to obtain some future good. But the Christian belief is that the "doing" itself is life-- the only life worth living. It is the "doing" itself which is the end goal, the reward itself.
As far as I can tell, that's a conclusion that some people manage to reach only after struggling to live according to their beliefs rather than according to their nature. I don't think any of us manages to start off with that view. In fact, my belief is that one way to describe what we need to be saved from is the natural inclination we are each born with to mistakenly believe that our happiness is something we can best figure out and achieve on our own.
Absolutely, totally agree-- and an excellent point IMHO. The kick back that we've seen here on this very thread-- the way it continually defaults to discipleship = onerous, burdensome, dreary obligation-- is evidence of precisely that. I think what you've just described is really what this life is really all about-- learning thru trial and error that the life God has for us really is the best possible life for us, so that ultimately we can freely choose to enter the Kingdom and that abundant life he has.
[ 20. May 2016, 13:56: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I just don't see what's so great about it other than the promise of salvation. Without that reward what is there to make me consider living a life of self-denial and abstinence?
Clearly you have found something else. I'd like to know what it is.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
You know, that's a very good question. I want to think a bit about how to answer it. Not because I don't have an answer, but because I want to think about how to articulate it in a way that is communicable to someone else with different life experiences. That probably sounds like an evasion... but I really think this is an important question that I want to give more than an off-the-cuff answer to.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Really, if we're honest, I think we have to admit that Marvin's attitude is pretty normal. I don't think you have to be some sort of mercenary monster to feel that way, at least some of the time
Certainly, without the spur of missing out on the chance of eternal bliss with God and His saints, there are moments when I personally just don't think I could muster the effort to love my neighbour as myself. Sorry, but there it goes.
The hope for Heaven and the fear of Hell are deeply motivational. If they help keep us on the right track, let's not knock 'em.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
The hope for Heaven and the fear of Hell are deeply motivational. If they help keep us on the right track, let's not knock 'em.
And that's where the concept of free grace becomes a problem, because it takes away both the hope for Heaven and the fear of Hell.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
The hope for Heaven and the fear of Hell are deeply motivational. If they help keep us on the right track, let's not knock 'em.
I have little hope for heaven (I hardly believe in it any more) and no fear of hell at all (I do not believe there is such a place)
But I keep on the right track because I want to! So do many, many of my non-believing friends.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
The hope for Heaven and the fear of Hell are deeply motivational. If they help keep us on the right track, let's not knock 'em.
I have little hope for heaven (I hardly believe in it any more) and no fear of hell at all (I do not believe there is such a place)
But I keep on the right track because I want to! So do many, many of my non-believing friends.
So, if a non-believer is able to find reasons to live a good and purposeful life w/o the threat or promise of eternal destiny as carrot/stick, then why is it so hard for some here to understand that Christians are able to do the same?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
The hope for Heaven and the fear of Hell are deeply motivational. If they help keep us on the right track, let's not knock 'em.
I have little hope for heaven (I hardly believe in it any more) and no fear of hell at all (I do not believe there is such a place)
But I keep on the right track because I want to! So do many, many of my non-believing friends.
Most people keep on the right track for a complex combination of reasons. But you guys must be much better people than I am if you are never seriously tempted to put yourself before others and if the only spur you ever need to put another first is the pure abstract concept of the good. Truly, if this is the case, I have nothing but admiration for you. I do not think it can be so with very many people, however.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Well, if the benchmark is "never messed up", much less "never tempted", then I assume we're all out of the running. That's different though from a decision to pursue holiness as a goal-- even if we often or even usually fall short.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
The hope for Heaven and the fear of Hell are deeply motivational. If they help keep us on the right track, let's not knock 'em.
I have little hope for heaven (I hardly believe in it any more) and no fear of hell at all (I do not believe there is such a place)
But I keep on the right track because I want to! So do many, many of my non-believing friends.
Most people keep on the right track for a complex combination of reasons. But you guys must be much better people than I am if you are never seriously tempted to put yourself before others and if the only spur you ever need to put another first is the pure abstract concept of the good. Truly, if this is the case, I have nothing but admiration for you. I do not think it can be so with very many people, however.
Of course everyone puts themselves before others sometimes. And so they should, we can't look after others if we don't look after ourselves.
But guilt/fear given by religion is not a good motivator imo. In fact it often leads to all sorts of compartmentalism.
Most people want the best for others. You wouldn't get so many people living in enormous cities in (relative) harmony if this were not so.
Upbringing plays a huge part in how we treat others, of course.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
So, if a non-believer is able to find reasons to live a good and purposeful life w/o the threat or promise of eternal destiny as carrot/stick, then why is it so hard for some here to understand that Christians are able to do the same?
Exactly.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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