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Source: (consider it) Thread: What is cheap grace?
Martin60
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Chesterbelloc - I 'expect' better of my kids. I'm not going to burn them for not living up to my expectations. Especially as they are utterly unjustified. As God's would be. Apart from His eternal, infinite one that is constantly being realised.

I sat in helpless privilege last night, after a lousy week at work - which could be my last, again, again, the fear just won't go away - that ended badly, late, surrounded by a few of the city's marginal people whilst an earnest young woman 'led' in exploring a verse or two from Ephesians, in the muffled background a bipolar ex-Hell's Angel mildly harangued a 30 year old guy with a mental age of 6 and a broken young Balt for an hour in the foyer (and yes, I'd hung around for a while while they were more agitated as she tried to herd them until an agitated member of the true flock summoned her in to the God slot as they were sitting around waiting)). I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. I managed an inclusive prayer.

She managed to comfort the afflicted with the rich not entering heaven. Utterly missing the point of the kingdom, NOW. Not entering it herself, through no fault of her own, under likewise clergy.

We are so brief and feeble, like mole rat pups from beginning to end.

On the way home I fantasized about blessing the boss of bosses when he sacks me next week. No really.

And yes it's all because of Jesus. Not because of Hell. I couldn't give a DAMN about Hell. It's in the Lake of Fire isn't it? Gone?

There is NO condemnation in Christ Jesus.

Only endless grace.

Soon to be realised for me but ... not soon enough [Smile]

[ 21. May 2016, 09:27: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
]Of course everyone puts themselves before others sometimes. And so they should, we can't look after others if we don't look after ourselves.

But guilt/fear given by religion is not a good motivator imo. In fact it often leads to all sorts of compartmentalism.

I tend to think that hope of heaven and fear of hell are more than just inadequate motivators; I wonder whether they run, or risk running, contrary to the Gospel.

Motivation based on reward/punishment still makes it all about me—I do this and don't do that based on what I get out of it or what I avoid. Is that really what God wants, or what Jesus preached? Seems to me that the motivation endorsed by Jesus is love, both of God and of neighbor.

Granted, allowing myself to be motivated by love will also lead to change and reward. I do get something out of it. But then again, I fall in with those who believe salvation is about much more than what happens after one dies.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Motivation based on reward/punishment still makes it all about me—I do this and don't do that based on what I get out of it or what I avoid. Is that really what God wants, or what Jesus preached? Seems to me that the motivation endorsed by Jesus is love, both of God and of neighbor.

If someone never gets beyond the idea of reward and punishment, then yes, it is all about me. However, those who give and share usually discover that these actions bring their own deep satisfaction. The concept of reward and punishment serves to get some people started. It is not where they should end up.

When my daughters were small, I told them that they didn't have to share their toys with each other. However, if they didn't share, they couldn't play with the other child's toys. This is a very crass reason for sharing, but they came to realize that sharing had its own rewards.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
If someone never gets beyond the idea of reward and punishment, then yes, it is all about me. However, those who give and share usually discover that these actions bring their own deep satisfaction. The concept of reward and punishment serves to get some people started. It is not where they should end up.

When my daughters were small, I told them that they didn't have to share their toys with each other. However, if they didn't share, they couldn't play with the other child's toys. This is a very crass reason for sharing, but they came to realize that sharing had its own rewards.

Sure, which is part of what I was getting at in the last paragraph of my post.

But personally, I draw the line at the reward of heaven/punishment of hell as motivation, even as a starting point. We never used that as a motivation in teaching our own children. I don't think God wants our love or our choices to do the right thing to be motivated by fear.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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cliffdweller
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tangent: Martin: praying for you in what sounds like a very difficult week and challenging situation, as well as for your ministry in a very important (and challenging) context.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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I'll add an "amen" to cliffdweller's last, Martin. Best wishes for a better next week.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Martin60
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Thanks guys. I'll let you know if I get to bless Kean!

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Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Thanks guys. I'll let you know if I get to bless Kean!

[Votive]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Bullfrog.

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Motivation based on reward/punishment still makes it all about me—I do this and don't do that based on what I get out of it or what I avoid. Is that really what God wants, or what Jesus preached? Seems to me that the motivation endorsed by Jesus is love, both of God and of neighbor.

If someone never gets beyond the idea of reward and punishment, then yes, it is all about me. However, those who give and share usually discover that these actions bring their own deep satisfaction. The concept of reward and punishment serves to get some people started. It is not where they should end up.

When my daughters were small, I told them that they didn't have to share their toys with each other. However, if they didn't share, they couldn't play with the other child's toys. This is a very crass reason for sharing, but they came to realize that sharing had its own rewards.

Moo

And how is hell connected with sin?

I think for a lot of non-Christians and at least some Christians, hell has become such a disconnect that it feels like a random and arbitrary thing. Are you X! God will punish you! Don't be X?

When X is a seemingly benign activity, it's really hard to understand how activity leads to hell in a way besides "piss off our arbitrary and capricious God and He'll have it in for you!!!" and if that's the case, I think a lot of us do feel like it's the way that parents deal with very small children who exist in a rather kafkaesque universe where cause and effect aren't exactly nailed down yet (my kids at ~2, 4, and 8; somewhat speaking from observation here.)

I think that Dante's work tried at least to connect the experience of hell to particular sins, so that you could kind of see how, say, lust creates misery. But I think that culture has been lost in many churches until it's just a vague existential reference to incineration, which is really scary but also really hard to make any reason out of.

And I think if you want to say God created an ordered world, and that this God is loving, and just, and fair; to turn God's existential universe into a kafkaesque nightmare of random punishments from a wrathful bully seems inconsistent on many levels.

Either God is ordered and just, or God sets people on fire for growing up in the wrong religious tradition. It's kind of hard to reconcile these two visions.

[ 22. May 2016, 02:46: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Martin60
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Bullfrog. Rejoice! They are reconciled in the trajectory from the latter to the former. This is what evolution does.

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Love wins

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I just don't see what's so great about it other than the promise of salvation. Without that reward what is there to make me consider living a life of self-denial and abstinence?

Clearly you have found something else. I'd like to know what it is.

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
You know, that's a very good question. I want to think a bit about how to answer it. Not because I don't have an answer, but because I want to think about how to articulate it in a way that is communicable to someone else with different life experiences. That probably sounds like an evasion... but I really think this is an important question that I want to give more than an off-the-cuff answer to.

I'm tempted to just leave this loose thread, but that feels cowardly. The more I think about it, the more I realize my reluctance to answer your very reasonable question is simply a fear of sounding trite and mundane and hopelessly subjective. But there you have it: the "something else" is for me (ta-da! big surprise!): a relationship with Christ, and the life in the Kingdom. For me it's worth it-- as it was for the disciples, even those who died for it (which makes any sacrifices I make look pretty miserly). And for me (unlike the disciples) the burden is light. But I do find joy, daily (well, most days) in knowing Christ. And I do find my life happier, easier, more enjoyable, when I strive toward the fruits of the Spirit-- love, joy, peace, patience. e.g. When I set aside unforgiveness and bitterness, I don't know if the offending party experiences any benefit/increased peace, but I sure as heck know I do. e.g.: When I set aside extramarital carnal pleasures (mostly theoretical for me) and am rewarded with a marriage & family I adore, it's worth the sacrifice.

Of course, nonbelievers make similar choices for similar reasons all the time. I think that supports rather than contradicts what I'm saying-- that life in the Kingdom (whether that's your express goal or just what happens) is better than life outside the Kingdom.

That probably doesn't sound very persuasive because I'm not really saying anything new, but I felt like I owed you an answer, however paltry it might be.

[ 22. May 2016, 15:13: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Marvin the Martian

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I appreciate it. You're right that it doesn't convince me, but I don't think you expected it to.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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Forgive me, but this seems to be a false dichotomy of the deaf. What have abstinence and self denial and 'limiting' oneself to marriage and family or not got to do with the screaming need for social justice? For Christians to die for opposing evil AKA violence with good?

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

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Do you think that making life worse for yourself so that it can be better for others isn't self-denial?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Do you think that making life worse for yourself so that it can be better for others isn't self-denial?

Well it is self-denial, but I think might be more helpful to think of it as an investment in something more lasting, more ultimately satisfying, more uplifting and so on.

Satisfying an immediate craving obviously has something going for it, but it doesn't last and may upset the chances of longer-lasting satisfaction. Looked at like that, it is like leaving money in the bank rather than taking it out to spend now. Yes, there are things I could do with the money which would (might?) make me happy now. But I'd rather think of the long term.

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arse

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I just don't see what's so great about it other than the promise of salvation. Without that reward what is there to make me consider living a life of self-denial and abstinence?

Clearly you have found something else. I'd like to know what it is.

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
You know, that's a very good question. I want to think a bit about how to answer it. Not because I don't have an answer, but because I want to think about how to articulate it in a way that is communicable to someone else with different life experiences. That probably sounds like an evasion... but I really think this is an important question that I want to give more than an off-the-cuff answer to.

I'm tempted to just leave this loose thread, but that feels cowardly. The more I think about it, the more I realize my reluctance to answer your very reasonable question is simply a fear of sounding trite and mundane and hopelessly subjective. But there you have it: the "something else" is for me (ta-da! big surprise!): a relationship with Christ, and the life in the Kingdom. For me it's worth it-- as it was for the disciples, even those who died for it (which makes any sacrifices I make look pretty miserly). And for me (unlike the disciples) the burden is light. But I do find joy, daily (well, most days) in knowing Christ. And I do find my life happier, easier, more enjoyable, when I strive toward the fruits of the Spirit-- love, joy, peace, patience. e.g. When I set aside unforgiveness and bitterness, I don't know if the offending party experiences any benefit/increased peace, but I sure as heck know I do. e.g.: When I set aside extramarital carnal pleasures (mostly theoretical for me) and am rewarded with a marriage & family I adore, it's worth the sacrifice.

Of course, nonbelievers make similar choices for similar reasons all the time. I think that supports rather than contradicts what I'm saying-- that life in the Kingdom (whether that's your express goal or just what happens) is better than life outside the Kingdom.

That probably doesn't sound very persuasive because I'm not really saying anything new, but I felt like I owed you an answer, however paltry it might be.

Well said.

God gives us The Way to live not to make our lives miserable, but to make them better. Both for ourselves and for others.

Mr cheesy hits on it above too. We know about "Emotional Intelligence" or delayed gratification for a greater good. One might think of The Way as "Spiritual Intelligence".

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a theological scrapbook

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Do you think that making life worse for yourself so that it can be better for others isn't self-denial?

That makes it better for me. For us all.

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Do you think that making life worse for yourself so that it can be better for others isn't self-denial?

Well it is self-denial, but I think might be more helpful to think of it as an investment in something more lasting, more ultimately satisfying, more uplifting and so on.

Satisfying an immediate craving obviously has something going for it, but it doesn't last and may upset the chances of longer-lasting satisfaction. Looked at like that, it is like leaving money in the bank rather than taking it out to spend now. Yes, there are things I could do with the money which would (might?) make me happy now. But I'd rather think of the long term.

In the long term, I'd still be worse off. The whole point of social justice is that I'd never get back to the position of relative wealth I currently enjoy - especially on the global scale - because social justice is all about eliminating such differences.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
In the long term, I'd still be worse off. The whole point of social justice is that I'd never get back to the position of relative wealth I currently enjoy - especially on the global scale - because social justice is all about eliminating such differences.

Injustice is corrosive. We'd all be better if there was more social justice. I really believe that.

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arse

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Do you think that making life worse for yourself so that it can be better for others isn't self-denial?

That makes it better for me. For us all.
I disagree. In crude terms, having my purchasing power reduced such that I can only afford one holiday a year rather than two or three makes my life worse, regardless of how many other people can afford to go on one holiday rather than zero as a result.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Injustice is corrosive. We'd all be better if there was more social justice. I really believe that.

How are you defining "better"? I know what I mean by the word - being able to do more of the things that make me happy and not having to do as many of the things that don't.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
How are you defining "better"? I know what I mean by the word - being able to do more of the things that make me happy and not having to do as many of the things that don't.

As we used to say to our three year old daughter, too many sweets makes you sick.

Living in a world where some live in luxury, where a large number live lives where they can experience good things a lot of the time and an even larger number live in ways that we can't even imagine is sick. Even those who are so focussed on themselves and hedonism that they can no longer hear the cries of pain cannot be unaffected by the sickness.

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arse

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Injustice is corrosive. We'd all be better if there was more social justice. I really believe that.

How are you defining "better"? I know what I mean by the word - being able to do more of the things that make me happy and not having to do as many of the things that don't.
You're so funny. [Killing me]

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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I live to please.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Evensong, I don't agree with you there. What else is there apart from grace? We are all dependent on God's grace, his generosity, his goodwill if you like. We only have a place in Christ's kingdom at his invitation.

None of us can say, 'I've qualified; I'm such a fantastic chappie/ess that God is lucky to have me believing in him'.

Yes. Please. I'm so far behind the work some of you do, like Martin. If we're going to be graded on a curve I'm way out of luck and I'll know who to blame!

As I get older I don't meet much temptation, so when Marvin the Martian says "things I want to do," I can barely think of an example, but along with that tamping down of any desire to do anything bad, is the lack of energy to do anything good. The fear of never being able to do enough is a kind of fear of failure that can keep me from even leaving the house.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Do you think that making life worse for yourself so that it can be better for others isn't self-denial?

Well it is self-denial, but I think might be more helpful to think of it as an investment in something more lasting, more ultimately satisfying, more uplifting and so on.

Satisfying an immediate craving obviously has something going for it, but it doesn't last and may upset the chances of longer-lasting satisfaction. Looked at like that, it is like leaving money in the bank rather than taking it out to spend now. Yes, there are things I could do with the money which would (might?) make me happy now. But I'd rather think of the long term.

In the long term, I'd still be worse off. The whole point of social justice is that I'd never get back to the position of relative wealth I currently enjoy - especially on the global scale - because social justice is all about eliminating such differences.
Not necessarily. It is more often about providing opportunity for those who would not have it. On the local level might be about ensuring access to grocery stores within affordable transport costs for those living in unserved areas. Or special low cost funding to jobs training to able but poor students. Or public funding of counselling and social services. These will cost the better off some taxes that they've paid to government. But the amounts are small.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
As I get older I don't meet much temptation, so when Marvin the Martian says "things I want to do," I can barely think of an example

Some of the things I was thinking about when I typed that are:

Playing golf and cricket
Going on holidays to hot places with nice beaches
Visiting preserved railways
Relaxing in the back garden with a glass of wine

Of course, in order to do all of those on anything like a regular basis one needs to have a certain amount of money available.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Do you think that making life worse for yourself so that it can be better for others isn't self-denial?

That makes it better for me. For us all.
I disagree. In crude terms, having my purchasing power reduced such that I can only afford one holiday a year rather than two or three makes my life worse, regardless of how many other people can afford to go on one holiday rather than zero as a result.
True, but, Marvin, we have a word for that attitude. Two actually, no make that three - Greed, Selfishness, Sociopathy.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Evensong, I don't agree with you there. What else is there apart from grace? We are all dependent on God's grace, his generosity, his goodwill if you like. We only have a place in Christ's kingdom at his invitation.

None of us can say, 'I've qualified; I'm such a fantastic chappie/ess that God is lucky to have me believing in him'.

Yes. Please. I'm so far behind the work some of you do, like Martin. If we're going to be graded on a curve I'm way out of luck and I'll know who to blame!

As I get older I don't meet much temptation, so when Marvin the Martian says "things I want to do," I can barely think of an example, but along with that tamping down of any desire to do anything bad, is the lack of energy to do anything good. The fear of never being able to do enough is a kind of fear of failure that can keep me from even leaving the house.

I do nowt Twilight. 1% quantitatively. And that's 1% effective. May be 5%. 0.05% And I alienate MtM.

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Love wins

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Jane R
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Marvin:
quote:
Some of the things I was thinking about when I typed that are:

Playing golf and cricket
Going on holidays to hot places with nice beaches
Visiting preserved railways
Relaxing in the back garden with a glass of wine

Of course, in order to do all of those on anything like a regular basis one needs to have a certain amount of money available.

It's not just about money, though, is it? You need time to do these things as well. The trend nowadays is for companies to employ fewer people and work them harder. Maybe they pay you a bit more so you won't complain about being expected to make yourself available 24/7... it's worth it from their point of view because it's cheaper than employing more staff to cover the work properly. But that means you don't get as much time to do things you want to do; and by the time your employers have finished with you you probably don't have the energy either.

Playing cricket, visiting preserved railways (or giant train sets, as I like to call them [Devil] ), having a glass of wine in the back garden... these activities don't require vast amounts of money. Just time, and friends to do them with.

[ 24. May 2016, 10:29: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
As I get older I don't meet much temptation, so when Marvin the Martian says "things I want to do," I can barely think of an example

Some of the things I was thinking about when I typed that are:

Playing golf and cricket
Going on holidays to hot places with nice beaches
Visiting preserved railways
Relaxing in the back garden with a glass of wine


I see. I thought you were wanting to do things that were considered sinful but it's just ordinary enjoyment. Karl finds these things greedy, even sociopathic. Really, Karl?

I don't go on holidays at all, but it's not so others can. It's partly that inertia I've mentioned and partly responsibilities at home, but I'm positive I'm not less greedy than Marvin.

So we're back to how much is enough? If Martin, who likes holidays, cuts back to only one a year will Karl be satisfied? The cost of one holiday could feed quite a few starving people in a third world country. The cost of that bottle of wine in the back garden could buy milk for a hungry baby.

When Jesus told us to give to the poor and care for the sick did he consider that by 2016 the media would make us aware of every hungry person on the planet, every child with a disease? Love thy neighbor has become so huge with our neighbors numbering in the billions.

How comfortable can we be in our own lives or must we all sell our houses and live in tents somewhere after giving the money away? I'm afraid the answer is yes, so I'm back to not even wanting to know.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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I find the attitude of only caring that I can have the things I like and bugger anyone else selfish and sociopathic, yes.

How far we should go is a question for us to figure out, but Jesus did bang on about if we've got two coats it's too many if there's someone with none, so he probably had a view on the matter that we might find uncomfortable.

I suspect Marvin isn't actually that at all. But it is the persona he sometimes seems to project over here.

[ 24. May 2016, 11:58: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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I think this comes down to Kant's Categorical Imperative.

Can we live with the idea that all people everywhere ought to be able to play golf and cricket?

I think we probably can, although possibly not when taken to extremes (perfect greens in Dubai, etc).

Can we live with the idea of all people everywhere going on holidays to hot places with nice beaches?

Probably not. I think holidays are a good thing, I think all people ought to be able to have recreation and vacation time, whoever they are. But when we're getting into the business of jetting around the world.. well, I don't think we could really cope with the whole planet of people doing that.

Can we live with the idea of everyone having the possibility to visit a preserved railway?

I think we probably can, although there are some issues with running ancient vehicles on coal.

Can we live with the idea of everyone relaxing in the back garden with a glass of wine?

This is a bit difficult to parse as land is at a premium for many people. But in principle, I think we ought to be able to imagine everyone having a bit of land they have free access to where they can sit and enjoy a drink. Possibly wine might be awkward if grown for the whole population of the world, I'm not sure about that.

So I think the only fundamental issue I have with any of these ideas is the wish to go on multiple flights for holiday.

And I think all of these desires could be achieved sustainably without really requiring others to go without them, albeit possibly with a bit of negotiation about the detail.

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arse

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Do you think that making life worse for yourself so that it can be better for others isn't self-denial?

That makes it better for me. For us all.
I disagree. In crude terms, having my purchasing power reduced such that I can only afford one holiday a year rather than two or three makes my life worse, regardless of how many other people can afford to go on one holiday rather than zero as a result.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Injustice is corrosive. We'd all be better if there was more social justice. I really believe that.

How are you defining "better"? I know what I mean by the word - being able to do more of the things that make me happy and not having to do as many of the things that don't.
I think what Marvin is describing is simply the "way of this world"-- the notion that is deeply engrained in each of us that the world is a zero-sum game, and that the more happiness one person has- whether rendered thru sex, vacations, gin, or chocolate-- the less is available for everyone else. My neighbor's gain must inevitably equal my loss. It's deeply rooted in each of us, because it makes sense. It underlies our social, political and economic policies and informs our individual decision making. After reading Marvin's post, I looked back over my day and acknowledge that virtually all my decisions about how I spent my time & money over the last 24 hours were driven by just that sort of thinking.

Which I think is why Jesus' teachings are so full of seemingly nonsensical paradoxical sayings. Why Jesus is always saying things like "the first shall be last" and "the way to gain your life is to lose it." Because what Jesus is asking us to do does not make sense-- at least to us. Jesus is suggesting that there is a Kingdom where the "rules"-- the way things work-- is precisely upside down from what we think. He is asking us to trust in a very counter-intuitive, counter-cultural belief that the world does not have to be like that.

The prosperity gospel get this half right by recognizing that giving money (usually to some already wealthy televangelist) doesn't equal misery. What they get wrong is not really changing the underlying zero-sum thinking. They've just switched out who's on top. Instead of the hedge fund managers or the dirty pols being on top, it's the one who prays the most or gives the most or does the right spiritual voodoo to make sure they win the zero-sum game. It's really not all that different than the ways of this world, the assumptions of this world, it's just adding a bit of magic-lite to the equation.

I think Jesus is asking us to believe that there is a Kingdom where generosity and sacrifice and all those fruits of the Spirit lead to the best possible life for us. Not because we get everything we want-- or think we want-- but because we get something we never knew we wanted because it is so beyond our imagining. We get a different sort of world. I don't know if we'll have four annual holidays in that world or one or none or if it's a 24/7 holiday. But Jesus is asking me to trust and believe that that Kingdom, with or without holidays, is the best possible one-- the one that will satisfy the deepest desires of my heart-- in part or in whole, because it will also satisfy the deepest desires of my neighbor's heart.

Again, if I look back over my daily decisions, I find scant evidence that I'm actually living as if that were true. But I want to live that way. Or I want to want to live that way. Or I want to want to want...

[ 24. May 2016, 13:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Martin60
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Superb. And your prayers have worked so far ... which confirms me in my 'incompetence' being just a drop in the ocean. But it will have been filed away to be used against me when necessary in many months time. They have previous ...

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Love wins

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Excellent post, Cliffdweller.
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Marvin the Martian

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# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
True, but, Marvin, we have a word for that attitude. Two actually, no make that three - Greed, Selfishness, Sociopathy.

I guess it's a good job we have cheap grace then.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Do you require an eternal reward to do the Jesus things?

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Do you think that making life worse for yourself so that it can be better for others isn't self-denial?

That makes it better for me. For us all.
I disagree. In crude terms, having my purchasing power reduced such that I can only afford one holiday a year rather than two or three makes my life worse, regardless of how many other people can afford to go on one holiday rather than zero as a result.
I should have responded to this. Sorry. Put in those terms, that's nearly reasonable! I take the point made elsewhere that this is a possibly a chosen persona speaking and I thought that from the word go actually, that this is an 'act', you doing an Alf Garnett, with a bit too much 'method'. Done it meself many a time. Usually with a Cockney accent. That you are being the common middle class man's advocate.

Wot evva.

I'm sitting in the front room of my young wife's Georgian house opposite a C13th church surrounded by the richest farmland in England (we're actually moving up market by over ... 100%) and last year we did London twice (and no, I don't mean a weekend), Nerja, Malaga, Cenarth and Cley next the Sea. This year we've only managed Cley next the Sea and London once so far, but Nerja and Malaga loom and then perhaps Blakeney ... and London twice more. It will be tedious and worse when we can't do these things.

Which WILL come soon enough, I promise. With a vengeance.

As will the fire next time unless we achieve social justice. For Muslims. Starting yesterday would be good.

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Do you require an eternal reward to do the Jesus things?

Yes, that is the question we've been discussing for the last few days.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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# 368

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I'm afraid I'd have to agree. I need Jesus and all He stands for, pared down of all ... crap: all will be well so you can afford to be nice.

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Love wins

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goperryrevs
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
As I get older I don't meet much temptation, so when Marvin the Martian says "things I want to do," I can barely think of an example

Some of the things I was thinking about when I typed that are:

Playing golf and cricket
Going on holidays to hot places with nice beaches
Visiting preserved railways
Relaxing in the back garden with a glass of wine

Of course, in order to do all of those on anything like a regular basis one needs to have a certain amount of money available.

Marv, I've recently been reading The End of Poverty, and one of the things that really struck me is that Sachs explicitly states that economics is a game that everyone can win.

It's easy to have the perspective that there is a finite amount of 'stuff', and so if someone else is to have more, then I have to have less. His point is that, given the right opportunities, everyone can thrive. You don't have to have less for others to have more.

Two hundred years ago, by today's standards, all but a tiny percentage of the world lived in abject poverty. That's no longer the case. Everyone's standard of living has improved, but in differing degrees. Apparently, economically speaking, improving the lives of other people doesn't necessarily mean making your life worse, or so says one of the world's leading economists.

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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch

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Evensong
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# 14696

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Zero sum game is a good description cliffdweller. And great post.

If it is a zero sum game then there is no grace.

If it is simply a matter of reward and punishment there is nothing more: there is no Grace.

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a theological scrapbook

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Do you require an eternal reward to do the Jesus things?

Yes, that is the question we've been discussing for the last few days.
I have had this discussion with you previously some years ago and recall being astounded by it.

I have mused on it over the years and have concluded that perhaps for some people, fear and reward are the only things that make sense.

But hey, if that keeps you on the straight and narrow, and even if you can't see the benefit of that now, it's much better than the other options.

Which was something of a revelation to me. Because I refuse to live in fear.

Fear is the opposite of what Jesus gives me.

But if it works for you. Great. We are all different. Maybe God gives us what we need and I have too much fear and you have too little.

[ 25. May 2016, 12:30: Message edited by: Evensong ]

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a theological scrapbook

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
As I get older I don't meet much temptation, so when Marvin the Martian says "things I want to do," I can barely think of an example

Some of the things I was thinking about when I typed that are:

Playing golf and cricket
Going on holidays to hot places with nice beaches
Visiting preserved railways
Relaxing in the back garden with a glass of wine

Of course, in order to do all of those on anything like a regular basis one needs to have a certain amount of money available.

Marv, I've recently been reading The End of Poverty, and one of the things that really struck me is that Sachs explicitly states that economics is a game that everyone can win.

Just an aside to note how much I, too, appreciated and have been influenced by Sach's work. Definitely worth a read.
[Axe murder]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Marv, I've recently been reading The End of Poverty, and one of the things that really struck me is that Sachs explicitly states that economics is a game that everyone can win.

It depends on what you consider winning to be. I think for me it would be having enough saved up to never have to work again, and I'd say it's pretty obvious why it's impossible (not to mention undesirable) for everyone to achieve that.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Marv, I've recently been reading The End of Poverty, and one of the things that really struck me is that Sachs explicitly states that economics is a game that everyone can win.

It depends on what you consider winning to be. I think for me it would be having enough saved up to never have to work again, and I'd say it's pretty obvious why it's impossible (not to mention undesirable) for everyone to achieve that.
True. Sach's goal is to end extreme poverty-- which he defines as being able to provide for one's basic needs-- food, shelter. His point is that moving everyone out of extreme poverty is a realistic and viable goal-- if we have sufficient motivation.

So it really comes down to that: do we have sufficient motivation? Is the relative unhappiness we might experience if we have to work a few years longer or forgo a holiday greater or less than the relative unhappiness we might feel knowing that a significant percentage of the world's population does not have sufficient food or housing today?

[ 25. May 2016, 15:00: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Is the relative unhappiness we might experience if we have to work a few years longer or forgo a holiday greater or less than the relative unhappiness we might feel knowing that a significant percentage of the world's population does not have sufficient food or housing today?

Greater, by a reasonable amount. I'm sure you'd consider it a failing of mine, but I just don't particularly care what happens to a bunch of random strangers in my own country, never mind random strangers in Chad or Laos or Ecuador.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Is the relative unhappiness we might experience if we have to work a few years longer or forgo a holiday greater or less than the relative unhappiness we might feel knowing that a significant percentage of the world's population does not have sufficient food or housing today?

Greater, by a reasonable amount. I'm sure you'd consider it a failing of mine, but I just don't particularly care what happens to a bunch of random strangers in my own country, never mind random strangers in Chad or Laos or Ecuador.
I think that's honest. And again, if I look at the decisions I make everyday it would certainly appear that's true of myself as well.

Which, perhaps, is what the work of sanctification is about. Perhaps as our hearts are transformed, as the Kingdom grows, the equation slowly shifts, and our ability to be complacent with our own pleasures in the face of suffering diminishes.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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quetzalcoatl
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cliffdweller wrote:

quote:
I think that's honest. And again, if I look at the decisions I make everyday it would certainly appear that's true of myself as well.

Which, perhaps, is what the work of sanctification is about. Perhaps as our hearts are transformed, as the Kingdom grows, the equation slowly shifts, and our ability to be complacent with our own pleasures in the face of suffering diminishes.

I think this happens as our hearts are broken. I've seen this happen to many people, as the shell behind which they have lived, cracks, via their own suffering. And then they become able to see others. One's own passion (= suffering), leads to com-passion.

I don't think this happens only in Christianity, but I do think the cross is a profound symbol of this. God loves a broken heart, or really, God is a broken heart.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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