Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fort McMurray
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Not much for hills on Fort Mac area. Wind is by far more important. Weather today is single digits with drizzle general across the west. Need a couple of weeks at least.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gramps49: ... However, it does seem the people in the United States throw more resources into fighting fires than Canada does. Last year, for instance, I went through Kamloops the day after a thunderstorm went through, I could see several smokes raising around the hillsides from lightning strikes, but I did not see any firefighting response from the highway. ...
Terrain and vegetation, less money, and philosophical differences. It's simply not necessary or feasible to put out every wildfire. This article was written after 19 firefighters in Arizona died in their individual fire shelters, and has examples of this different approach:
Canada takes a much different approach to fighting wildfires than the U.S. does
quote: Lucy Tower, manager of B.C.'s fire equipment depot, told CBCNews.ca Tuesday that the decision was made because the province's firefighters are never put in a situation where they would need to deploy a fire shelter. Much of the terrain where wildfires occur in Canada is also densely forested. ... In general, Canadian wildfire fighters are equipped with the view that firefighters should avoid putting themselves in harm's way to begin with.
For example, there is a national standard for their heat-resistant clothing, which is far lighter than what urban firefighters wear, Mousseau said.
"The intent of the clothing is that if you do get into trouble, it will save you as you are leaving," he says. ... Canadian forest firefighters don't carry breathing equipment such as respirators either. Mousseau said that's partly because of the nature of what is burning. In an urban setting that may include plastics and toxic chemicals, while the fuel tends to be mainly plant matter in a grassland or forest fire.
But it's also because, like fire shelters, special breathing equipment isn't considered necessary.
"Our general consensus is that if you can't breathe, you should leave," he said. ... All wildfire operations are carefully planned and mapped based on where the fire is and is expected to move, and all firefighters are thoroughly briefed in advance and are in constant communication with a command centre, where the weather conditions are monitored and where everyone knows where each firefighter is and should be, New Brunswick's Flinn said.
A key part of every fire operation, he added, is an established escape route to a safety zone, an area nearby that is safe from the fire because of its natural geography, or perhaps because it has already been burnt over.
This is an awesome collection of photos, taken by a friend who lives in Lillooet, about a 2 hour drive from Kamloops: Lillooet - 2009 As you can see, the terrain is very steep and very dry. The huge fire above the town was a deliberate back burn. You can also see drops of fire retardant as well as water.
-------------------- "You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Soror Magna: This is an awesome collection of photos, taken by a friend who lives in Lillooet, about a 2 hour drive from Kamloops: Lillooet - 2009 As you can see, the terrain is very steep and very dry. The huge fire above the town was a deliberate back burn. You can also see drops of fire retardant as well as water.
By coincidence, I drove through that area just two days ago. I had never been there previously. It was noticeable (and rather scary) to see the clear evidence of past fires on the hills surrounding the roads. I was also very aware of how dry everything is already in the area. It was only too easy to see how a fire could start and grow quickly there.
I've found that Canada is a place where there is about 2 degrees of separation (rather than 6) - name any place and someone will know people who live there. I think that's why what is happening at Fort McMurray has had such a powerful impact. It is not just that it is one of the largest natural disasters in the country's history - just about everyone I know has some sort of personal connection to people living or working in the area.
-------------------- Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Soror Magna: quote: Originally posted by Gramps49: ... However, it does seem the people in the United States throw more resources into fighting fires than Canada does. Last year, for instance, I went through Kamloops the day after a thunderstorm went through, I could see several smokes raising around the hillsides from lightning strikes, but I did not see any firefighting response from the highway. ...
Terrain and vegetation, less money, and philosophical differences. It's simply not necessary or feasible to put out every wildfire.
But will this fire around Fort McMurray lead to public pressure for becoming more like the U.S.? I'm sure the experts in the U.S. know that suppressing all fires just makes the problem worse by delaying it, but public pressure can be irresistible after so much damage is done to permanent structures.
-------------------- A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch: ... I think that's why what is happening at Fort McMurray has had such a powerful impact. It is not just that it is one of the largest natural disasters in the country's history - just about everyone I know has some sort of personal connection to people living or working in the area.
One of the reasons for those connections is that people have come from all over Canada to work in the oil industry and make pretty good money. Now they're facing the loss of everything they've built up - whether it's a home or a collection of motorcycles and snowmobiles. It's all terribly sad, but no, it's not too soon to point out that they're still far, far better off than other climate refugees AND that the Alberta government has been irresponsibly profligate with oil money AND that rugged individualists making $100,000/year and paying no sales tax and no medical insurance premiums* who don't want no government telling them what to do are the sort of folks one would expect to buy insurance and prepare for emergencies.
*Turns out that didn't work so well, so premiums will be coming back in one form or another.
-------------------- "You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
The alternative being ... what? They're kind of stuck - they're not allowed to give kids to anyone but a parent* AND not allowed to let kids go without adult supervision.
I really don't think the plan was for the teachers and students to burn to death in a locked school; the plan was probably to wait until the very last minute for parents to take the kids; the school staff would then be able to evacuate a much smaller number of remaining kids and be able to say their parents: yes, we know where your kids are.
-------------------- "You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
That was pretty much my point. I have no doubt that there was no good alternative and that they made the choices they had to in the circumstances. I'm not criticizing or even second guessing them, just noting how extreme the situation was that they faced. That part about the students was the part that really stood out for me to indicate how quickly it developed into a life-or-death situation. I'm amazed that no one was killed or even injured.
-------------------- A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The fire has been burning east. Now about 28 km from La Loche, Saskatchewan. In the map in this link, for scale, Fort Mac and La Laloche are about 100 km apart. There's not much in between for people and settlements. Just the historic fur trade route, the Methye Portage, which goes down from the Clearwater-Athabasca escarpment into Alberta. There is a winter road. The area of the fire is about 2000 square miles (3000 square km).
"I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood." (Acts 2, though not really a nice Pentecost). [ 19. May 2016, 21:48: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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