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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Canadian politics
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
US States are bound by the same treaties, so let's just admit this is a dead letter and move on.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
US States are bound by the same treaties, so let's just admit this is a dead letter and move on.
Yes, but the last time I checked, the governors of Colorado, Washington, Alaska, and the mayor of DC weren't making a big talking-point about how their jurisdictions were really commited to international co-operation and multilateralism.
But like I say, it probably WON'T be an issue, since the supporters probably aren't analyzing things with any degree of rigour. Though I think it probably SHOULD be an issue, if we think that statements like "This country believes in international treaties" have any meaning at all.
(Cards on the table: I generally regard "international law" with disadain, especially as applied to the internal affairs of signatory countries. If other people don't like the way we do things, they don't have to come here.)
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
The "keeping International obligations" card is trotted out by which ever side thinks it useful for domestic political consumption.
Regardless, nobody is going to lose an election based on whether the reforming the prohibition of marijuana doesn't jive with what other countries think.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
... nobody is going to lose an election based on ...
And here I thought it was about doing what was best for the country (and the people), not about winning elections.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
The "keeping International obligations" card is trotted out by which ever side thinks it useful for domestic political consumption.
Regardless, nobody is going to lose an election based on whether the reforming the prohibition of marijuana doesn't jive with what other countries think.
Agreed. In fact, that's kinda the point I was trying to make.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
... nobody is going to lose an election based on ...
And here I thought it was about doing what was best for the country (and the people), not about winning elections.
Well I thought it was obvious the best for the country is not to use resources on criminalizing this stuff so...
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
... nobody is going to lose an election based on ...
And here I thought it was about doing what was best for the country (and the people), not about winning elections.
Well I thought it was obvious the best for the country is not to use resources on criminalizing this stuff so...
Well, that's probably been obvious since Le Dain in '71, but we've still had over 40 years of cannabis prohibition since then, under both Tory and Liberal regimes.
So, it does seem that the welfare of the country sometimes takes a back seat to political considerations.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
I would say that using a closure omnibus bill to neuter parliament (this is sooooo McGuintyesque and indicates where most of the operators in the PMO are coming from)specifically to pass a law that has already been ruled on and told isn't good enough by a provincial court of appeal
is pretty stupid.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I would say that using a closure omnibus bill to neuter parliament (this is sooooo McGuintyesque and indicates where most of the operators in the PMO are coming from)specifically to pass a law that has already been ruled on and told isn't good enough by a provincial court of appeal
is pretty stupid.
Interesting posit, that connection with the McGuinty regime.
We'll have to wait and see if the incident that everyone is talking about is still TITEITA in a few days, or if it just gets swept out of the public consciouness like so much dust.
If, and I'm saying if, this government's reputation does take a turn for the worse, I predict the Elbow Affair will be Trudeau's Tainted Tuna Scandal, ie. the moment where it all began to go wrong.
[ 19. May 2016, 18:40: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Well they backed down on the neutering of parliament so its likely to simmer down.
Tainted tuna was a bit more pointed politically as it actually involved public health. Trudeau inadvertently elbowing the NDP whip while loosing his cool and acting like a kid over an NDP stalling tactic doesn't capture the attention as much.
There will be a public safety scandal eventually - there always is. Then we can see how this regime reacts.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Heard of McGuinty. Know zip about her. Did he elbow some opposition member who took a dive? Yellow cards for both the PM and the diving woman from what I saw. All need an infusion of brains into their empty stupid heads. Same as it ever was. Except never as bad as it was with Harper.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
The more I hear about the elbow, the more I want to say, "So is that your biggest problem with Trudeau?"
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
The more I hear about the elbow, the more I want to say, "So is that your biggest problem with Trudeau?"
The cynic in me wonders that, if it had been Mr Chrétien, would not most of them have been in sick bay (with the exception of perhaps Mr Mulcair, who could likely hold his own)? I was disappointed in Ms Brousseau's response for I have seen the Carleton University bar in which she once poured libations and it is clear that a bartender there would have to be capable of holding her own.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
The more I hear about the elbow, the more I want to say, "So is that your biggest problem with Trudeau?"
Well, for me, part of the issue is possible double standards. I haven't taken any polls, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that about 70% of the people defending Trudeau on this would be screaming blue-murder if Harper had done the same thing.
Rob Ford's knocking over of Pam MacConnell haunted him to his dying day, quite literally. Granted, it's kinda hard to tell from the video if he knew what he was doing. He does put his arms on her as he knocks her down, but he doesn't otherwise appear to be aware that anyone is there.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
The more I hear about the elbow, the more I want to say, "So is that your biggest problem with Trudeau?"
Well, for me, part of the issue is possible double standards. I haven't taken any polls, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that about 70% of the people defending Trudeau on this would be screaming blue-murder if Harper had done the same thing.
*snip* .
My poll of 5 people is not scientific even if by the standards of some firms, it might pass. However, my selection (perhaps flawed as it consists entirely of frequenters of an independent coffee shop) indicates that they found the actions to be out of character for the current PM, while they believe it was the sort of thing Mr Harper would have loved to have done. His temper was well-known in Ottawa but AFAIK the explosions occurred behind closed doors, with few exceptions (I only have a first-hand account of one). My poll suggested that a one-off of this sort will be forgotten, but if it turns out to be the first of a series of similar episodes, he cannot expect much forbearance. His selling-point was that he was consultative and open and the episode was certainly at variance with this.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Augustine wrote:
quote:
However, my selection (perhaps flawed as it consists entirely of frequenters of an independent coffee shop) indicates that they found the actions to be out of character for the current PM, while they believe it was the sort of thing Mr Harper would have loved to have done.
Interesting, though, that Harper, who supposedly would have loved to do that, never actually did. Whereas Trudeau, the guy who supposedly doesn't like to do it, has now done it.
In any case, I think the defense based on appealing to someone's true essence was quite neatly rebutted a long time ago.
quote:
My poll suggested that a one-off of this sort will be forgotten, but if it turns out to be the first of a series of similar episodes, he cannot expect much forbearance. His selling-point was that he was consultative and open and the episode was certainly at variance with this.
Yeah, like I said earlier, a lot is going to depend on how things go from here on in. I suspect that this episode will probably pour a bit of cool, if not outright freezing, water on future attempts of the Liberals to capitalize on the PM's supposedly charming quirkiness.
[ 20. May 2016, 19:30: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Abacus poll about elbowgate just came out
Find it here.
Two quotes that are useful for dealing with any leader.
quote:
The reaction inside the ‘Ottawa bubble’ was disproportionate to the reaction in the country at large. It was not, so far anyway, a moment that transfixed voters and shifted the political landscape.
&
quote:
Some of those who already disliked the Liberal Party and the Prime Minister were upset by the events. Most barely took notice, let alone shifted their views.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
The more I hear about the elbow, the more I want to say, "So is that your biggest problem with Trudeau?"
The cynic in me wonders that, if it had been Mr Chrétien, would not most of them have been in sick bay (with the exception of perhaps Mr Mulcair, who could likely hold his own)? I was disappointed in Ms Brousseau's response for I have seen the Carleton University bar in which she once poured libations and it is clear that a bartender there would have to be capable of holding her own.
Really, I am surprised at you, Augustine. Whatever Ms. Brosseau may have wanted to do to the Prime Minister, she couldn't, and I know you understand that. The only recourse to such an event in the House is to "make a fuss", as even a finger raised on her part would be treated with equal severity.
The rules of the House are intended to keep debate lively and mostly civil, with a degree of latitude. Physical acts, however, are given zero tolerance. It has to be that way in order to function.
The Tory whip was also a fool for not going around on the clearly empty government side of the clerks desks.
I believe the Trudeau brand has been damaged, perhaps not critically but clearly it has some holes in it now. His father (whom the current PM has echoed with ready abandon) got away with his antics by cloaking them in wit. His son's actions were not an example of wit.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Both Trudeau and the female MP get yellow cards. He for barging in, not for the elbow, she for diving. Mulcair and the host of shrill dunces making a wall of bodies get stern warnings. Now play on. And grow the eff up.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
A sharp elbow to the breasts hurts.
Suggesting it doesn't and should have been ignored shows ignorance.
She got hurt.
I notice that only some non-official Trudeau apologists and some on the right are suggesting that an elbow to the breasts doesn't hurt - and almost universally its men who are saying so.
I await either Wente or Blatchford to wade in and say it doesn't, just to prove that it does.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I have seen this incident so many times now. Brouseau was behaving badly along with other MPs in the area by blocking others from moving through. This is the reason she must be held partly to blame. Trudeau is to blame for barging in. So both have misbehaved.
And you're waiting for some real high quality political reporters ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 23. May 2016, 23:09: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
SPK wrote:
quote:
I believe the Trudeau brand has been damaged, perhaps not critically but clearly it has some holes in it now.
I agree. There will likely be a bit of a shift in the way the PM is presented to the public. It might not be readily discernible to people who aren't paying close attention, but we'll likely be seeing fewer celebrity boxing bouts and one-handed push-ups. And definitely no more photo-ops like this one.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Perhaps it would be helpful if I could clarify that the one person who is not to be blamed in the fracas was Ms Brosseau, universally recognized as a diligent and serious MP-- while I thought she might have responded differently, the House is a very different place from a bar and the recipient of an elbow or anything of that sort is not to be faulted for their response. Indeed, she has been subjected to some very unfair commentary in the wake of the incident.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Indeed, I hope Ms. Brosseau runs for Leader, though as she does have a son, it may be the next leadership round, not this one.
I had the pleasure to meet her Riding Association President at the NDP Convention in Edmonton. My French was good enough that he didn't feel the need to switch over.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I have seen this incident so many times now. Brouseau was behaving badly along with other MPs in the area by blocking others from moving through. ...
Not relevant to what you said which was she took a dive.
There is a lot more nuance in all this but suggesting Brosseau was faking her pain shows ignorance.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I have seen this incident so many times now. Brouseau was behaving badly along with other MPs in the area by blocking others from moving through. ...
Not relevant to what you said which was she took a dive.
There is a lot more nuance in all this but suggesting Brosseau was faking her pain shows ignorance.
We disagree on this. She over reacted.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
...She over reacted. [/QB]
If you'd taken a knee in your privates, would we argue you overreacted? Most women are quite sensitive in their breasts.
The fact is, no physical contact in the House is acceptable. PM Trudeau left his bench, made deliberate physical contact with the whip, and unintentional contact with Brousseau and must be sanctioned.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
Just heard former PM Harper will be leaving politics this fall.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Off to some directorates and to start a foreign policy think tank. May he get some time with his kids.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Off to some directorates and to start a foreign policy think tank. May he get some time with his kids.
IIRC he'll have to wait until November for his directorates, unless they're among the precious few corporate boards which have no business with the Government of Canada, but his NGO stuff can start up before then. I think that he has taken a decision to get out of the hair of his successor, given John Diefenbaker's heritage. I had the impression that his primary recreation was hanging out with his family.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
...
The fact is, no physical contact in the House is acceptable. PM Trudeau left his bench, made deliberate physical contact with the whip, and unintentional contact with Brousseau and must be sanctioned.
Fair enough. But what would you consider an appropriate sanction? Resignation? Another election? Withdraw a legislative proposal? Take away the nanny? A national public inquiry on violence against women parliamentarians?
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
...
The fact is, no physical contact in the House is acceptable. PM Trudeau left his bench, made deliberate physical contact with the whip, and unintentional contact with Brousseau and must be sanctioned.
Fair enough. But what would you consider an appropriate sanction? Resignation? Another election? Withdraw a legislative proposal? Take away the nanny? A national public inquiry on violence against women parliamentarians?
Sanctions can include all sorts of things; direction to make an apology, a vote of censure, suspension, and even expulsion-- all of which can be a result of a vote of the House, normally after the Committee of Privileges reviews a MP's claim that privileges were violated. As the PM has apologized to Ms Brosseau, who has accepted his apology, I would be surprised if the Committee of Privileges would take up the issue without a vote of the House referring it to them (which would also be a cause for surprise).
If I recall my Manual of Procedure correctly, the Speaker can order a member to withdraw for the remainder of the sitting, but that opportunity is past.
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