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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Evangelism for the un-evangelistically inclined
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
One of the things about music as a medium for conveying a sense of wonder and worship is that it only works if the audience already knows the gospel message. Without that prior knowledge of the gospel then the message of the music has no context to allow it to make sense, there need to be some words as well as the music if that is going to convey the gospel message to those who do not already know it. Of course, a choral piece includes words - but even then usually the dictates of the art form mean that the words are poetical and the message somewhat subtle.
The church holding concerts does give the message that we're not all dour kill-joys determined to stop anyone enjoying life. So, it does good work in countering some misconceptions about the faith. It may be, and probably quite often is, an opportunity to refresh the faith of people who have the knowledge of the faith but have drifted from regular church attendance. It will almost certainly provide an opportunity for those who may not get out often a chance to hear good music, a chance for people to be entertained, to spend time together ... all that and more make such concerts a valuable part of the mission of the church and a very good thing to do. But, by itself, is not a very effective means of proclaiming the gospel to those who haven't heard it before.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
One thing you can say about music is that it is mysterious. You can listen to some Bach, say (because he's clearly the best), and not only like the music, but think it wonderful that it could be written, that you could hear it, and that you were born and exist to experience this moment.
There is a given-ness about music, and a natural gratitude in our response to it, that seems to me to have a deep goodness about it.
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My crazy theology in novel form
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Propositional content? That sounds so dry and dead.
In isolation, yes. But whatever one has without it is devoid of meaning.
quote:
The Good News or evangel always seems to come wrapped in a person.
Absolutely, and this is vital. But I'm glad that my Quality Street tin doesn't consist entirely of wrappers. Especially those square purple ones. quote:
what we have and respond to are stories of his interactions with people. It's to the space between that we are directed.
You keep saying things like this, but I contend that while interaction is important, the Gospel has positive content. It's more than a blank which everyone fills in as they wish.
quote:
Jesus doesn't drill his disciples in techniques or tactics, he sends them out to interact at some personal risk. It is to be at least as much an adventure for those sent as for those they are sent to.
Again, I agree entirely, but he sent them out with some specific instructions, not simply "go forth and explore the space between you and your neighbour".
quote:
Perhaps we should regard the Good News not as something we know and can take with us and dole out along the way, but as something wholly divine and as impossible to possess as manna, which we must find for ourselves as we go, pointing it out to others as we do so.
Wasn't it you who referred earlier to "one beggar telling another where to find bread"? If there's no bread to be found, we have nothing to tell.
We read that we are bearers of life and hold treasure, albeit in jars of clay. Trying to turn that into TreasureDelivery™ and then market it as a course is a travesty. Assuming there is no other life or treasure at all anywhere else is simply arrogant. But nevertheless we carry Christ within us, the hope of glory.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
One of the things about music as a medium for conveying a sense of wonder and worship is that it only works if the audience already knows the gospel message. Without that prior knowledge of the gospel then the message of the music has no context to allow it to make sense, there need to be some words as well as the music if that is going to convey the gospel message to those who do not already know it. Of course, a choral piece includes words - but even then usually the dictates of the art form mean that the words are poetical and the message somewhat subtle.
Doesn't it matter who is doing the thing? Can someone be an evangelist for a cause they don't believe in?
I don't know about the spiritual life of the composers of the organ music - nor, I suppose, know the inner spiritual life of Redman, Kendrick and the others.
But I think we can say without contradiction that it is perfectly possible to be an organist, a Cathedral choir member, orchestra musician etc without being a member of the faith - and still be able to give an uplifting (possibly spiritual) experience. I am reminded of the popularity of Handel's Messiah in Israel amongst predominantly Jewish communities and with predominantly Jewish musicians.
It seems highly unlikely that anyone is persuaded to become a Christian solely on the basis of hearing any kind of music.
Those that find the music uplifting and edifying for their Christian worship (which isn't me, I can't stand the crashing notes of most organ music) are able to transcend the composer, musicians and any subtle errors.
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arse
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Propositional content? That sounds so dry and dead.
In isolation, yes. But whatever one has without it is devoid of meaning.
You're dead right, especially about the purple Quality Street.
But what is the propositional content of the Gospel? Any attempt to articulate it will cause disagreement here and now, and look totally weird in three hundred years.
The best you can do is say something that refers to the story of Jesus. 'God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself', is good. Very short, and doesn't really mean anything until you unpack it. 'Himself' is a problem these days, of course.
There must be some content to the Good News, but we can't really say what it is. It's can only be properly expressed in personal ways. It can be approximated in stories. It sits very uncomfortably in propositional language.
Regarding the bread, yes there is some bread or manna there, but none of us has a reliable supply of it. We are all beggars, not bakers and customers.
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My crazy theology in novel form
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
But what is the propositional content of the Gospel? Any attempt to articulate it will cause disagreement here and now, and look totally weird in three hundred years.
Previous threads have proven the truth of this statement.
Nevertheless, I persist, sharing the Good News includes content. Maybe propositional was the wrong word. Exact details might vary, but as you concede, there must be some... articulated (?) content. It's no good just showing a photograph or playing an instrumental piece and looking soulful. quote:
The best you can do is say something that refers to the story of Jesus. 'God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself'
That's in one of my favourite chapters in what is in strong contention to be my favourite book of the Bible ![[Smile]](smile.gif) (not least because of all that stuff about propositional content, sorry, the letter, being so dry and dead without the Spirit).
I love the idea of the believers fleeing the persecution in Jerusalem "gossiping the Gospel". There was something to gossip about.
[ 13. May 2016, 11:48: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Propositional content? That sounds so dry and dead.
The Good News or evangel always seems to come wrapped in a person. Jesus didn't write anything, and because we have varying reports of the things he said and did, his actual words can't be confidently reconstructed and in any case, what we have and respond to are stories of his interactions with people. It's to the space between that we are directed.
Jesus doesn't drill his disciples in techniques or tactics, he sends them out to interact at some personal risk. It is to be at least as much an adventure for those sent as for those they are sent to.
Perhaps we should regard the Good News not as something we know and can take with us and dole out along the way, but as something wholly divine and as impossible to possess as manna, which we must find for ourselves as we go, pointing it out to others as we do so.
Thank you for this, hatless.
We can let go of trying to work out how to evangelise. As long as we're ready to talk about Jesus and our faith as and when, genuinely and with integrity, we can allow the Holy Spirit to lead us into new territory with new people, and let God do the rest.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The challenge for moderate or MOTR congregations is that doctrinal unity and understanding are not normally considered to be a high priority for the laity. This must be a problem for congregational evangelism. Promoting 'the gospel' to your friends when you're a bit hazy yourself, or if you know that others in your church believe rather differently, is surely rather problematic. Simply 'being ready to talk about Jesus' (Raptor Eye) can lead us into points of controversy - especially since those are the issues that modern people often bring up!
Anyway, the tolerance at the heart of this outlook must make evangelism seem rather unnecessary, or even theologically undesirable.
I think the MOTR leaning is rather that the Christian journey of understanding and discipleship has psychological and social benefits which some individuals might find very helpful. The church is seen as a Christian community that can help with the journey - which is convenient, because the church desperately needs people to help maintain its institutional as well as its spiritual existence.
Of course, many people see themselves as Christians or as 'spiritual' people without any particular help from the church. Their benign indifference is hard to overcome.
[ 13. May 2016, 12:31: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry to be a pest, but I think we're in danger of positing a false dichotomy between 'mystery' and what we might call 'propositional content'.
To use Orthodoxy as an example - and I do so because it's a Christian tradition that seems to combine elements of both ...
I've heard it said, by Western converts, that in parts of Greece you'll find people who haven't the foggiest idea what's being said or sung in the Liturgy (because it's in medieval Greek) yet who are somehow impacted or 'caught up' in it all in some kind of mysterious way that goes beyond the purely propositional and cognitive ...
On the other hand, I've came across cradle Orthodox Greeks who grew up here in the UK who are not afraid to state, quite categorically, that a lot of their compatriots back in the home country haven't the foggiest idea what's going on in the Liturgy and simply know how to go through the motions and how to behave ... when to bow, when to cross themselves, when to make a prostration ...
Now, which account do we go with? Whose version of events do we favour?
Well, clearly that'll itself reflect where we are coming from ourselves in terms of our own understandings of these things and our own tradition.
I suspect, though, that there'll be a bit of both going on ... there'll be people who don't understand all the words and symbols and so on but who somehow 'connect' with the Faith, if you like, in some kind of subliminal way or by osmosis. There'll also be others who simply 'go through the motions'. And all points in between.
The same, I would submit, would be the case with the performance of a Bach chorale, a Gospel choir, a barber-shop quartet or a Salvation Army brass-band ...
In the case of the Greeks, my own view would be that it would certainly be preferable for all sorts of reasons if the Liturgy were 'in a language understanded of the people'. Yet, at the same time, I wouldn't want to see a loss of the sense of mystery and timelessness that you do get in Orthodox worship.
I think we're missing the point to some extent if we fixate about whether this, that or the other form of musical or artistic expression is going to connect to people. There'll be as many reactions to it as there are people.
I remember going on a 'behind the scenes' tour of Durham Cathedral as part of the social programme on a works conference in that fair city. People were oohing and ahhing and saying how transcendent and spiritual it all was, whilst a Swiss delegate shrugged his shoulders and said that the cathedral was a dreadful thing because, for him, it represented a complete waste of energy (the hours and man-power spent building it) and symbolised the oppressive nature of religion and the terrible track-record of the Christian Church ...
So what is spiritual and transcendent for one person may be a complete turn-off to somebody else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think SvitlanaV2 has raised some interesting and pertinent points there.
Congregational 'evangelism' surely necessitates the vast majority of participants being 'on message' and on the same page ...
Something that is patently not often the case, even in the most monolithic of churches in terms of shared beliefs.
That's where the 'programme' element falls down for me.
Back in the day, in my full-on restorationist charismatic days, times of outreach and particular programmed campaigns were introduced with all sorts of promises and assurances of 'success'.
Once these times were over and there was little - very often - to show for our efforts in terms of our expectations (often over-egged ones) there was then little or no reflection on what had gone well, what had gone badly, what might be done differently.
Unfulfilled expectations and unfulfilled 'prophecies' were mostly swept under the carpet. Then we'd do the whole darn thing again a few months later on ... and again with similar 'results'.
It's my observation and experience that churches that do engage in 'intentional' or programmed forms of evangelism do grow - at least for a time - but this often doesn't come as a direct result of the evangelistic programmmes themselves (although it can do).
Rather, what happens is that these things create an outreach mindset, if you like, and a semblance of life and vitality which attracts people in from the periphery or from further out.
I'm not knocking that, necessarily, simply identifying it as a feature ... just as SvitlanaV2 has identified systemic features of more MoTR congregations.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The challenge for moderate or MOTR congregations is that doctrinal unity and understanding are not normally considered to be a high priority for the laity. This must be a problem for congregational evangelism. Promoting 'the gospel' to your friends when you're a bit hazy yourself, or if you know that others in your church believe rather differently, is surely rather problematic.
Certainly true for us.
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
Just popping by to say that if anyone has a surplus of purple Quality Street I can take them off your hands. Not my favourite but chocolate is chocolate.
Also, thread has moved on a bit, but I was reminded earlier about Paul's thing where he said he was happy when the gospel was preached, even for dodgy motives.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't believe that mission should be at the heart of what churches are all about.
I sort of agree - we are solely for worship.
But what about the whole "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" directive? Or feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc.?
Or are you perhaps considering doing those things in the name of Christ to be worship?
Yes, in a way, but the chief purpose of the Church is to worship.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Nick Tamen: So what do you understand to be at the heart of what churches are all about?
Not sure. To be honest I'm not a big fan of the church. The way I like to express it is: I have a love-hate relationship with the church, where the balance is tipped somewhat towards hate.
Of course, we can stretch the definition of 'evangelism' so far that any interaction I as a Christian have with another person counts as evangelism. I'm not sure if the word still has meaning if we do that. So let me clear then: I don't try to convince anyone to become Christian, even for very soft values of 'convince'.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
leo
I remember reading somewhere that the pre-eminence of worship in the church is misplaced. In the case of MOTR congregations which are reluctant to talk about God outside of the formal worship context I'm inclined to agree.
Telling God how wonderful he is is lovely, but it seems to be of limited benefit in showing us how to obey him and helping us to do so. Singing 'Go, tell it on the mountain' doesn't seem to help us when we want to tell people about Jesus.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
leo
I remember reading somewhere that the pre-eminence of worship in the church is misplaced. In the case of MOTR congregations which are reluctant to talk about God outside of the formal worship context I'm inclined to agree.
Telling God how wonderful he is is lovely, but it seems to be of limited benefit in showing us how to obey him and helping us to do so. Singing 'Go, tell it on the mountain' doesn't seem to help us when we want to tell people about Jesus.
That's not how I envisage worship. In offering the eucharist, we imagine the world to be different from the narrative sold to us by consumerism.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Another interesting observation, SvitlanaV2 but I wonder whether we are getting tied up in rather mechanical ideas about cause and effect?
I do wonder how much 'self-fulfilling prophecy' there is about a lot of this stuff.
I was thinking only the other day whether the charismatic thing served to make me 'bold' in witness as the apparent experience of 'baptism in the Spirit' and its attendant phenomena were supposed to - according to those most keen to promote the experience/practice.
I honestly don't know. I did go through a phase where I was a lot more active in sharing my faith - often accosting strangers on trains and so on - but I wonder whether I did this to fulfil expectations in some kind of 'this is the fruit of it' type of way ...
That said, in my early charismatic days I certainly did experience instances of almost overwhelming joy and a sense of conviction and certainty that did lead to my expressing that to people in quite spontaneous ways ...
These things are difficult to evaluate.
I'm not sure it's as simple as suggesting that, say, the more high-octane 'We're going to take this land for Jesus ...' type songs of the full-on charismatic kind are more conducive to motivate people to reach-out evangelistically than, say, 'Go tell it on the mountain' or whatever else ...
What I do think happens, though, is that there is a sense of 'intentionality' and enterprise in some of the livelier settings that does promote a sense of urgency in terms of external engagement and evangelism.
No question about that.
It's a question of theology, worship style and ethos and practice.
By their very nature, more contemplative or less demonstrative forms of worship are going to encourage people to become more contemplative and less demonstrative in the way they act.
I could be quite extrovert in my full-on charismatic days because that was the kind of behaviour that was valued, expected and encouraged.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
One of the things about music as a medium for conveying a sense of wonder and worship is that it only works if the audience already knows the gospel message. Without that prior knowledge of the gospel then the message of the music has no context to allow it to make sense, there need to be some words as well as the music if that is going to convey the gospel message to those who do not already know it. Of course, a choral piece includes words - but even then usually the dictates of the art form mean that the words are poetical and the message somewhat subtle.
The church holding concerts does give the message that we're not all dour kill-joys determined to stop anyone enjoying life. So, it does good work in countering some misconceptions about the faith. It may be, and probably quite often is, an opportunity to refresh the faith of people who have the knowledge of the faith but have drifted from regular church attendance. It will almost certainly provide an opportunity for those who may not get out often a chance to hear good music, a chance for people to be entertained, to spend time together ... all that and more make such concerts a valuable part of the mission of the church and a very good thing to do. But, by itself, is not a very effective means of proclaiming the gospel to those who haven't heard it before.
Respectfully, I disagree rather much. It is precisely not knowing and perhaps either not being interested or being hostile to "the gospel message" that can allow aesthetic truth to reach some.
The things Leibnitz didn't discover but named "perennial philosophy" and stated by St Augustine seem helpful:
"The very thing that is now called the Christian religion was not wanting among the ancients from the beginning of the human race, until Christ came in the flesh, after which the true religion, which had already existed, began to be called "Christian". (this quote is rather available internetish many places)
We just need to read "ancient" as "electronic media" and otherwise leap into the present and future.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is precisely not knowing and perhaps either not being interested or being hostile to "the gospel message" that can allow aesthetic truth to reach some.
But, what is this "aesthetic truth"? It seems to me, and correct me if I'm misreading you, that it's that gut feeling of "there's something more, bigger" which many of us feel when uplifted by great music, sit admiring majestic scenery etc.
Which is all very good, but doesn't say very much at all about what that "something more, bigger" is. Surely for something to be categorised as Christian evangelism then it needs to pointing at least in the general direction of Jesus? Otherwise all you have is a great concert - and, I've no problems at all with churches holding concerts, there are lots of good missional reasons for doing so, just don't pretend that in doing so you are proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
No one is pretending. Proclaiming is all words, no? Which capture some things. And fail on some essentials. The concepts actually repell many. For me, many of them seem minutiae, unessential, and (forgive me) idiot tales told by idiots. They confine, they don't expand.
Sure, many of us might end up in a hell (which we may prefer) because we don't claim certainty like the confident proclaimers. Or we question the things confident evangellos take as absolute. I would never get my 90 year old father into a church otherwise.
[ 14. May 2016, 00:15: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'm not seeing anyone here claiming that proclaiming the gospel is all words. The old maxim "preach the gospel at all times. If necessary use words" has already been repeated - I guess I'm saying that using words is always a necessary part of that preaching. That preaching the gospel requires some content that can only be conveyed in words.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes. To put it more theologically, "general revelation" can only take people so far. The churches have to witness to Christ, the Eternal Word of God - which ultimately requires our words.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
My tuppenceworth on this subject is that the best evangelism is to live our lives well. Doorstepping repels me. Street evangelists will have me crossing to the other side of the road. Helpful tube travellers who, having lifted my heavy case for me, say that they do it "for my Lord Jesus" make me back off several steps, even though I may be on crutches.(Actual case.) Words may be necessary at some stage, but not until some trust has been established, and that takes time. Or may never happen at all.
[ 14. May 2016, 06:57: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't believe that mission should be at the heart of what churches are all about.
I sort of agree - we are solely for worship.
But what about the whole "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" directive? Or feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc.?
Or are you perhaps considering doing those things in the name of Christ to be worship?
Yes, in a way, but the chief purpose of the Church is to worship.
Go to a weekly concert interrupted by a lecture? Is that the example Jesus set?
[ 14. May 2016, 07:02: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That's not how I envisage worship. In offering the eucharist, we imagine the world to be different from the narrative sold to us by consumerism.
And this is why I don't believe in the sacrament.
We are one body. All of us. In the Eucharist we celebrate the breaking of Christ's body. In life we live the breaking of Christ's body, the church, in the world.
There is no distinction between the two. Worship does not happen in the church, it doesn't happen when the priest lifts the bread, when the Baptist minister preaches, the Methodist sings hymns etc.
Either our lives are worship - in all its complexities - or they're not. Either our lives exhibit the truth of our profession or they don't.
To attempt to limit it to something which can only happen in a particular place at a particular time by a particular person is to try to put God into a box, and as far as I'm concerned is the antithesis of the gospel.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Exactly. Perfectly orthodox.
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Love wins
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Both/and not either/or.
Are Quakers saying that God can only be apprehended during an hour's silence on a Sunday morning?
No, of course not.
Are sacramentists saying that the only locus for any sense of the divine occurs in the Eucharist?
No, of course not.
Is the Baptist minister saying that the only way his congregation can encounter divine truths is when he preaches on a Sunday morning.
No, of course not.
This thread is becoming like False Dichotomy City.
As far as evangelism goes we need words and actions.
Same with worship. Same with anything else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeah, both the 1% a week spent around singing hymns and the 99% working, travelling, slumping in front of the telly, eating.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Go to a weekly concert interrupted by a lecture? Is that the example Jesus set?
Did Jesus sing hymns? Yes
Did Jesus read and listen to the scriptures being read? Yes
Did Jesus pray? Yes
Did Jesus preach? Yes
Did Jesus break the bread and drink the wine? Yes
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeah, both the 1% a week spent around singing hymns and the 99% working, travelling, slumping in front of the telly, eating.
Yes, of course. Who's saying otherwise?
Are the Quakers only Quakers for the one hour a week they spend in Meeting?
Is an RC Christian or an Anglican Christian or an Orthodox Christian only such when they receive communion on a Sunday morning?
Is a Baptist minister only a Baptist minister when he/she preaches a 40 minute sermon on a Sunday?
Or are her/his congregation only Christians when they're sat listening to it (or zoning out or thinking about their Sunday dinner or whatever they happen to be doing)?
If it were all down to how long we spend in church services then monks and nuns would be the only 'real' Christians around ...
Why this dichotomy between worship and service, or between worship and witness, worship and mission?
I don't see why we need to be reductionist about any of this stuff - either from a High Church perspective, a Low Church one or all stations in between.
It's like the old saying I've heard preachers use (and read in guilt-inducing evangelical books ...) that if you carry your Bible to church you preach a sermon a mile long ...
As if being seen carrying a Bible in and of itself acts as some kind of incontrovertible testimony ...
That's just as daft, in my view, as the statement I've heard around here when Christians find out we're running music concerts in one of the churches:
'At least it's getting people into a church building ...'
As if the very act of walking into a church building is going to generate spiritual vibes that will somehow rub off on them ...
Enough of this mechanistic stuff already.
I'm involved with organising concerts because I think it's a good thing to do. I run open-mic poetry and folky music events in pubs because I think they're the best venue for these things and I enjoy a pint and a bit of craic.
I use church buildings for some events, secular ones for others. If some form of evangelism flows out of it, fine, that's great. If it doesn't then that's fine too because it's achieving something else - bringing people together, raising money for charity, adding to life's rich tapestry in some way ...
It's all good.
Now, there still remains the issue of evangelism and how best to go about that ... but I suspect there are as many answers and issues around that as there are people and different types and flavours of church ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm not seeing anyone here claiming that proclaiming the gospel is all words. The old maxim "preach the gospel at all times. If necessary use words" has already been repeated - I guess I'm saying that using words is always a necessary part of that preaching. That preaching the gospel requires some content that can only be conveyed in words.
Am I misunderstanding? The evangelical churches here spend much time doing the conversion sales job. Perhaps there's a softer sell elsewhere. Nonliturgical. Free standing in most cases. Winning hearts for Jesus is the aim.
[ 14. May 2016, 14:45: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That's not how I envisage worship. In offering the eucharist, we imagine the world to be different from the narrative sold to us by consumerism.
And this is why I don't believe in the sacrament.
We are one body. All of us. In the Eucharist we celebrate the breaking of Christ's body. In life we live the breaking of Christ's body, the church, in the world.
There is no distinction between the two. Worship does not happen in the church, it doesn't happen when the priest lifts the bread, when the Baptist minister preaches, the Methodist sings hymns etc.
Either our lives are worship - in all its complexities - or they're not. Either our lives exhibit the truth of our profession or they don't.
To attempt to limit it to something which can only happen in a particular place at a particular time by a particular person is to try to put God into a box, and as far as I'm concerned is the antithesis of the gospel.
I agree except for the first and last points.
I could have responded more directly to SvitlanaV2 - his idea of 'worship' is really 'praise', which is only one part of worship.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure it's as simple as suggesting that, say, the more high-octane 'We're going to take this land for Jesus ...' type songs of the full-on charismatic kind are more conducive to motivate people to reach-out evangelistically than, say, 'Go tell it on the mountain' or whatever else ...
What I do think happens, though, is that there is a sense of 'intentionality' and enterprise in some of the livelier settings that does promote a sense of urgency in terms of external engagement and evangelism.
I just want to make it clear that on this thread I've said nothing about any sort of 'take this land for Jesus' evangelism. My focus has been on the challenges that other approaches, especially in moderate churches, might face.
On a positive note, I agree with mr cheesy who said above, our whole lives have to be a witness, not just our evangelistic methods, nor any particular worship style. Cultivating personal and congregational holiness should surely be a high priority for all churches ahead of any evangelistic programme.
Regarding your particular situation, I don't think it's a good idea for you to go around promoting church groups and activities that you have reservations about, to put it mildly. IMO the best people to talk about these things are those who've participated in them and enjoyed them.
You'd be of most use on the technology and admin side of things, or helping with transport, I think. Otherwise, if you have the time, inclination and permission you could start a Christian meditation group, or something else that would stand outside the evangelical emphasis of your church without undermining it.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I could have responded more directly to SvitlanaV2 - his idea of 'worship' is really 'praise', which is only one part of worship.
I take your point that the word 'worship' can mean more than praise; the whole of one's life should be an act of worship, etc.
Still, most of the time and in most church contexts it refers to the dominant parts of the Sunday morning service, or to the content of the whole service itself (a 'worship service'). IME teaching and learning as activities are not normally considered to be significant features of 'worship', and this is what I find to be a problem. But I realise that some people will probably disagree with me.
BTW, as my Ukrainian online name suggests, I happen to be female!
[ 14. May 2016, 17:27: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Still, most of the time and in most church contexts it refers to the dominant parts of the Sunday morning service, or to the content of the whole service itself (a 'worship service'). IME teaching and learning as activities are not normally considered to be significant features of 'worship', and this is what I find to be a problem.
Don't agree - evangelicals sometimes talk aout 'a time of worship' and a lot of guitar strumming follows.
But in the mainstream, readings, prayers anmd sermon are definitely 'worship'. Hence our entire lituergy comes from a book called 'Common Woship'.
This fairly established website explains how psalms, readings etc. are 'worship'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
quote:
By Gamaliel
Now, there still remains the issue of evangelism and how best to go about that..
I wonder if we spend too much time worrying about the unconvertable. I suppose it stems from that ghastly bit of our theology involving the wrath of God.
Jeus did not seem to expect many followers. He spoke of 'salt', 'yeast', light. All needed in small quantities in this world to continue to improve the loaf.
How about the Church getting involved with all the good community organisations and talking to those who are being called? They are bound to turn up and continue the work of the Holy Spirit.
Communal worship is just a Christian thing.
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm not seeing anyone here claiming that proclaiming the gospel is all words. The old maxim "preach the gospel at all times. If necessary use words" has already been repeated - I guess I'm saying that using words is always a necessary part of that preaching. That preaching the gospel requires some content that can only be conveyed in words.
Am I misunderstanding? The evangelical churches here spend much time doing the conversion sales job.
Yes, there are some evangelical churches, a very small (but usually by their nature vocal) minority of evangelical churches IME, where evangelism consists of exclusively using words to tell people the gospel. But, even those churches would also say that those words have less power if they are not accompanied by a lifestyle that is not in contradiction to the message.
But, my point was that no-one here, contributing to this thread, has expressed a view that evangelism is just telling people the message. Evangelicals of that persuasion don't tend to hang around on the Ship.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Still, most of the time and in most church contexts it refers to the dominant parts of the Sunday morning service, or to the content of the whole service itself (a 'worship service'). IME teaching and learning as activities are not normally considered to be significant features of 'worship', and this is what I find to be a problem.
Don't agree - evangelicals sometimes talk aout 'a time of worship' and a lot of guitar strumming follows.
But in the mainstream, readings, prayers anmd sermon are definitely 'worship'. Hence our entire lituergy comes from a book called 'Common Woship'.
In evangelicalism there will often be times when one particular aspect of the faith becomes the emphasis. We often have times when we will focus particularly in offering worship to God through music, times when we focus particularly on offering our prayers to God, times when we focus particularly on the reading and exposition of Scripture, times when we particularly focus on sharing the gospel message with unbelievers etc. We tend to use a shorthand notation, "time of worship", "prayer time", "Bible study", "evangelism". But, we (well, most of us) know this is short hand and that in our "worship time" we also pray and listen to Scripture, that in our Bible Study we worship.
We would also affirm that worship is not confined to a couple of hours in the church building on a Sunday. Our worship continues through the week as we help out at the homeless shelter, stock take at the food bank, spend time with friends over a meal, go to work, offer quick prayers as the latest atrocity gets splashed across our TVs in the evening news. Although we can sometimes be very bad at compartmentalising our churches into different times for prioritising different activities, we are usually also very good at not compartmentalising life into "church" and "not church", with worship, prayer, love of God and neighbour spreading through the whole of our lives (in theory at least, in practice most of us struggle to some extent).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nice one Raptor Eye. I'll try and remember that when I'm trying to make it work tomorrow. Unless om gooin Fabric Guild in Lesto' AGAIN to get the missus a rotary cutter for her piquage, which she SHOULD have got last week of course, but she couldn't see the point, she'd never used one before, it wasn't how she did it years ago ... but I'd sown the seed obviously. I'll be showing her how to use the hexagonal template, which we got in NORTHAMPTON today, via Leamington, with it after.
If that's not love, sacrifice, praise, worship and a hundred miles, I don't know what is.
If I do, do you think I'll miss Jesus turning up at church?
You know, I watched Stigmata again tonight, thrust it on the missus who hadn't seen it before. As good as the first time and frit her good and proper. It actually made me hanker for a proper Roman Catholic service, despite its sublimely evangelistic message.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@SvitlanaV2. Indeed and that's part of my conundrum and dilemma.
I'm glad they are evangelising, but I don't particularly want to do it their way, nor am I interested in the particular events and activities they promote.
I'm not that involved other than editing the church mag and leading the prayers at the 9am service once every five or six weeks. I don't go to house-groups or prayer meetings. They're best doing these things without me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
I don't think you face too much of a dilemma, unless the church is begging you to do things you don't want to do. That would be unfortunate.
It sounds like a lively church with a sizeable congregation, so there should be no need for unsuitable demands to be made on you. Surely there are other gifted members whose commitment to the church's ethos and identity would make them better suited to 'fronting' this sort of evangelistic programme?
You're more of a free spirit, so you'll no doubt continue to have your own evangelistic conversations, etc. without regard to what your church is doing.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Well I went and the ratio of old women to old men was only 3:2 today. I did try and humble myself and go with and be grateful for the simplicity. How I make the Holy Spirit real, to fully and constantly submit to God when I'm neck deep in too much and too little mindless techy work and commuting for 12 hours tomorrow, I don't know. How I'm to be the living embodiment of the risen Jesus to my colleagues apart from trying to be pleasant with the odd person except Ron (to whom one does not exist) when going for coffee, or encouraging to James in his needs and expect them to want what I've got, to ask what is it about me that's so compelling, I don't know. Well I do, I use elegant matching.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I remember reading somewhere that the pre-eminence of worship in the church is misplaced. In the case of MOTR congregations which are reluctant to talk about God outside of the formal worship context I'm inclined to agree.
That's making assumptions that the people who attend that church aren't engaging in challenging work in the community in their day to day lives and need that worship to refocus and recharge their batteries.
quote:
Telling God how wonderful he is is lovely, but it seems to be of limited benefit in showing us how to obey him and helping us to do so. Singing 'Go, tell it on the mountain' doesn't seem to help us when we want to tell people about Jesus.
But it might mean that the congregant can face another week of working in the day job of social work, teaching or health care. Why are those professions not seen as Christian work?
I work with the excluded or soon to be excluded teenagers, who push every button on purpose. One, slightly more reflective, 15 year old once asked me how I managed to keep coming back smiling for more of the abuse and I said pray. That Sunday service was, at the time, the pause for thought and put the work and world in focus for me.
If I have spent all week working with challenging teenagers trying to support them to achieve an education and not be dumped on the scrapheap at 15, why should I then be expected to go out and do more missional work? Churches can't have it both ways - have people working in their communities to serve that community and also expect those same people to run the church. There's only so much stretch in most people's lives.
(Yes, I have had a few conversations about faith, but only because I was asked directly by the students, not because it was anything I pushed. You can't in education, it's very frowned upon. Where I am now, it might well get me sacked.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Gamaliel - going back to something you said earlier in the thread. Locally there was a dialogue with the local art society. That society exhibits in the church a couple of times a year. One year they were challenged to produce a series of Stations of the Cross which were then exhibited in the church during Lent and Easter with their notes alongside. There was a booklet for sale with pictures and notes. It was voluntary, with only those who were interested taking part, very few of whom were churchgoers.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I remember reading somewhere that the pre-eminence of worship in the church is misplaced. In the case of MOTR congregations which are reluctant to talk about God outside of the formal worship context I'm inclined to agree.
That's making assumptions that the people who attend that church aren't engaging in challenging work in the community in their day to day lives and need that worship to refocus and recharge their batteries.
quote:
Telling God how wonderful he is is lovely, but it seems to be of limited benefit in showing us how to obey him and helping us to do so. Singing 'Go, tell it on the mountain' doesn't seem to help us when we want to tell people about Jesus.
But it might mean that the congregant can face another week of working in the day job of social work, teaching or health care. Why are those professions not seen as Christian work?
I've worked in the public sector myself, and you make a good point about how busy these people are. More generally, the fast pace of much of modern life probably militates against church as much more than a refilling station for many people.
Furthermore, in many professional situations evangelism of any kind is likely to be seen as an offense.
My comments had nothing to do with which professions might be seen as 'Christian', though; my issue is that what we call church worship doesn't offer enough teaching (and sermons are only of limited use in this respect). In turn, more teaching isn't what churchgoers want or expect.
One could argue that this wouldn't matter in practical terms if we were still in the early 20th c. and all our churches were chugging along nicely on their reserves. The trouble is that outside the favoured corners of the South East and a few well-heeled places elsewhere this isn't how things are. Nationally churchgoing has declined a great deal, and belief has declined in its wake. We mutter about the evangelical response, but the real issue is what the mainstream churches can do to prevent their weaknesses from becoming terminal.
However, if stuff isn't broken where you are, there's no point in trying to fix it.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Curiosity killed ... your laborare est orare.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure ...
@Curiosity Killed: yes, I'd applaud those kinds of initiatives and would aspire to be involved in them. I'm planning a Stations of the Cross event for November based around Chester Cathedral's WW1 Stations of the Cross artworks and with input from the British Legion, local community theatre etc.
@SvitlanaV2 - yes, you're right on one level. It's not much of a dilemma at all ... there are more than enough people to 'front' and engage in evangelistic activity at my local evangelical Anglican parish church without any input from me.
They'd do it a lot more effectively on their own and without my input.
No, the dilemma isn't one of being 'forced' or expected to engage in stuff I don't feel comfortable with but the kind of transition/development that is taking place in my own mind and approach - the kind of ongoing paradigm shift away from a full-on evangelical perspective and position that's been taking place with me over the last 20 years or so ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
BTW, as my Ukrainian online name suggests, I happen to be female!
Whoops, sorry
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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