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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are we abandoning our youth?
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Thinking about what we’ve got going on locally now ...
- Some of the churches have groups that cater for babies in arms to ones considering university and beyond.
- Various holiday clubs, weekends away and camps.
- A Christian organisation has relationships with 15 out of the 17 secondary schools and does RE lessons, away days, pastoral support etc for them.
- One of the local cafes hosts term time meetings for young people in the area. Anyone who is of the right age can come to these if they want too, regardless of which local church they go too.
- Regular events where the church youth groups get together to do stuff that young people like doing. Like dancing, playing games etc
Having asked my in-house young person, all of this was considered not meh. Praise indeed!
There is stuff going on quietly all over the place, but unless you have children of the right age, you’re unlikely to notice as it’s not of interest.
Now the Tubblet is older, I know what’s going on for her age group, but I couldn’t tell you what days the local toddler groups are on anymore. (Apart from the one that Rev T runs). When we needed them, I knew them all!
I don't think we are abandoning our youth, it's just that what's on offer isn't the same as we had when we were going up. Which is only right, as each generation needs and wants different things.
Tubbs
[ 31. May 2016, 15:52: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Interesting observations, Quantpole (and give my love to all at your church).
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
My kids enjoyed the Scripture Union stuff too. I've never heard them slag that off, let's put it that way ...
I daresay it depends on the kid. No two kids are alike.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
what's on offer isn't the same as we had when we were going up. Which is only right, as each generation needs and wants different things.
Tubbs
And different personalities (of any age) need different things. So what is ultimately going to matter is that there is a range of opportunities, rather than just one kind of Christian expression.
I have read many books which are very good at pointing out what is wrong with the church today, and why it is not much good at attracting new members. But none of them were able to come up with a (to me) convincing solution. Which is a shame, because I read them all right to the end, just in case.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Could you tell us some of the solutions that they do come up with?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Could you tell us some of the solutions that they do come up with?
You probably need to major less on that praying stuff and that singing. I was humming "O God out help in ages past" to myself yesterday and found myself singing "O lots of strange Victorian words/all full of eths and ests..." I didn't get any further; it's not that I don't know what "from everlasting thou art God to endless years the same" meets, but doesn't it sound weird?
Ah, torn between incomprehensible Victorian faux-mediaeval English and modern cliché, but that way canters the ghostly Mesohippus.
Do I have a positive contribution to this thread, I sense people saying. I'm not sure. Most people I know that I'd class as young are not "put off" church any more than they're "put off" going to watch Ballet. It's just not on their radar, not something they do or want to do. They're vaguely aware of some mostly elderly God-botherers listening to some bloke in a frock and socks with sandals wittering on, but they don't really give it a moment's thought.
I envy them. A bit. Sometimes.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most people I know that I'd class as young are not "put off" church any more than they're "put off" going to watch Ballet. It's just not on their radar, not something they do or want to do. They're vaguely aware of some mostly elderly God-botherers listening to some bloke in a frock and socks with sandals wittering on, but they don't really give it a moment's thought.
But then when young people do go to Ballet or Opera they often/sometimes enjoy it. The problem is not the accessibility of the content, it is the barrier (or perhaps more accurately the perceived barrier) to access. I've been to a lot of different events in my life but the one time I went to ballet, I was blown away. One of the most memorable things I've ever done.
Look at the number of people who go to Shakespeare for fun (personally I can't imagine why). They're not all aged or Oxbridge types.
Of course, life is not a competition. Singing incomprehensible words is not any more holy than singing words in the modern vernacular.
But I think there is something to be said for refined tastes. I don't expect everyone to enjoy Stilton and most people don't the first time they try it. I'm glad I persevered and look forward to those few moments every year when I savour a nice bit of Stilton.
Similarly, I don't expect everyone to enjoy hymns and I can appreciate the reasons people like jumpy songs with simple words. At the same time, there is something satisfying about singing something with a bit of gravitas about it that you don't get from a modern chorus.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Yeah, I think that's where I was going with that. It was a bit stream of consciousness. To summarise, yeah, the hymns and words are a bit weird, but then again I don't think people are not going because hymns (actually I think some of the tunes are more offputting than the lyrics*), they're not going because they don't go. In my experience of occasional (Easter, Advent) services the church does for the primary school here to which parents are invited the hymns don't bother them because they just don't sing them.
I think it's possible to tinker with the content to keep people - and one of the drop off points is having children, I think - once they're past the colouring pictures of Mary Magdalene stage church can be an hour of trying to keep them reasonably quiet. I'd go as far to say as young parents are actually one group we're failing, which will surprise many who think they're doing a great job. Perhaps in some places they are. Round here, I'm afraid, not so much. A church hall with two people trying to find some way to occupy five children aged between 4 and 15 isn't really achieving a great deal.
I like Shakespeare.
*Someone (Church English Dictionary?) defined hymn as "theology with no or bad tune" and chorus as "tune with no or bad theology", but I digress.
[ 15. June 2016, 08:21: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
I have two teenagers. What makes faith stick for them, or not stick, just as for almost everyone of any age group, is whether they are loved by the Christian community they are with. The love, genuine, not forced, is what matters more than the programme or worship or anything else. It is the love she has found from Christians of her own age that had taken one of mine from SU camper to junior leader. Surprisingly this is in line with Jesus "By this shall all know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." Any person, young or not so young, who is not loved has been failed.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
I have two teenagers. What makes faith stick for them, or not stick, just as for almost everyone of any age group, is whether they are loved by the Christian community they are with. The love, genuine, not forced, is what matters more than the programme or worship or anything else. It is the love she has found from Christians of her own age that had taken one of mine from SU camper to junior leader. Surprisingly this is in line with Jesus "By this shall all know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." Any person, young or not so young, who is not loved has been failed.
This is all.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Yes, the love of the church is important. I would like to add that, however genuine the love, it doesn't guarantee that a young person (or anyone else) will pursue a Christian faith. But it makes it a lot easier for them to explore the possibility if they want to.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Yes, the love of the church is important. I would like to add that, however genuine the love, it doesn't guarantee that a young person (or anyone else) will pursue a Christian faith. But it makes it a lot easier for them to explore the possibility if they want to.
Yes. It's strange (or not) how powerful it is, though.
I think I share on this thread already about my college students who go on church visits, and sometimes end up at some tiny, aging, congregation of 20 elderly folk older than their grandparents, singing poorly ancient hymns these kids have never heard-- who will immediately swarm them, offer them donuts, and then inappropriately ask them to teach Sunday School or lead singing without knowing a darn thing about them. Very awkward, lame, and socially inappropriate. We're surrounded by dozens of large mega-churches with all the youth-oriented bells & whistles, including cute members of the opposite sex in the college group.
And yet... a surprising number of my students return to these aging congregations. They come back to the place where everyone is older than grandma and they don't understand the words or the melodies of the hymns. They come back.
I think it has something to do with being loved-- and being needed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That's been my experience too with the young people (heck, most people) we've worked with. They want someone to care.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To summarise, yeah, the hymns and words are a bit weird, but then again I don't think people are not going because hymns (actually I think some of the tunes are more offputting than the lyrics*), they're not going because they don't go. In my experience of occasional (Easter, Advent) services the church does for the primary school here to which parents are invited the hymns don't bother them because they just don't sing them.
I think it's possible to tinker with the content to keep people - and one of the drop off points is having children, I think - once they're past the colouring pictures of Mary Magdalene stage church can be an hour of trying to keep them reasonably quiet. I'd go as far to say as young parents are actually one group we're failing, which will surprise many who think they're doing a great job. Perhaps in some places they are. Round here, I'm afraid, not so much. A church hall with two people trying to find some way to occupy five children aged between 4 and 15 isn't really achieving a great deal.
You've got two different problems here.
One is that most young people are simply outside the orbit of the church and don't see that it offers anything that they need. Indeed, it's not something they even think about.
Secondly, by the time you've got down to five children of very different ages with two adults in a church hall the church in question is probably already short on adults willing to train and do the work, short on resources, and short on young families. The old ladies in the congregation may sincerely 'love' them (which, as others have said, is important) but if they're bored, and feel that what they're doing is uncool and marginal, and that the church has very little to offer, why would they want to be there?
I agree that churches in the second situation (which is the majority of British churches) need to focus on attracting adults first. Without adults there won't be the manpower, energy or resources to build up the youth work.
In the first situation you need to be a church that already has access to manpower, energy and resources, and you need have a vision to prioritise a ministry among young people. In most churches children and youth are a side issue, but that's not good enough in contemporary culture. The adults would have to be willing to drop a lot of what they hold dear. They'd have to sacrifice traditions. That would be a sign of love!
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Our evangelism committee recently met with three millennial members of our congregation. They said the appreciate five things in our congregation:
1. No judgement--we work at that.
2 We accept their doubts. We allow for questions about the faith.
3. We have no age barriers when it comes to lay leadership. They really were impressed when we had a 10 year old as the cup bearer in communion. BTW--we do not have a Youth Sunday--kids of all ages are encouraged to help with all worship.
4. One of them said he liked a pamphlet he picked up in the narthex. It was entitled "What Jesus said about Homosexuality" Inside it was blank.
5 They appreciate that we have blended services. We use a combination of traditional and contemporary. One of them who has played African Drums in our services, said he would be turned off if we went to a praise service. He said those services were so yesterday.
In other words we don't do anything special to attract youth, when we say we are inclusive we practice what we preach.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Could you tell us some of the solutions that they do come up with?
There weren't really any. The books got all wishy washy and nebulous at this point, and then ended.
If you are short of time, you could always browse the last chapter of each to see what I mean.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In other words we don't do anything special to attract youth, when we say we are inclusive we practice what we preach.
This is what we do. We're too small to be a useful sample to say whether it works or not.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In other words we don't do anything special to attract youth, when we say we are inclusive we practice what we preach.
This is what we do. We're too small to be a useful sample to say whether it works or not.
I found myself pretty much in line with Gramps49's post, and depending on one's definition of youth, it seems to work too.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Y'see, I've a sneaking suspicion that the things that make church difficult for younger people are things that are often suffered in silence by older people as well.
Not always, of course, but does anyone enjoy singing an obscure hymn they've never heard of before to a tune that makes Morrissey seem melodically adventurous and Sisters of Mercy upbeat and lively?
(It's not always oldies - I'd put "Lord I lift your name on high" in this category)
[ 17. June 2016, 14:22: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Thinking about it as someone perhaps a little younger than many on here (35), I think the frustrating thing is that the old ways still work, it's just that not enough people any longer do the old ways. It's not a criticism because of course life (and time) moves on, but certainly an observation.
I was talking about this very subject the other day with some friends as we came out of a funeral. Most (about 30 from 50 odd people) were about my age and reasonably regular churchgoers; at least once per month. This is not something they have been all their life but something they've come back to. None, as yet, have children, so it's not about school places!
Some found themselves wanting to sing hymns again - after having been made to sing them every morning in school assembly. They just liked congregational singing, and the theology came later. These were state schools in the 1990s, so not that long ago.
The public school and military contingent had had years of compulsory chapel, and confessed that now church is "what you do" on a Sunday morning because it always has been and not going feels like missing out on an important part of life.
Others fell into it at Oxford because there was a network of college chapels laying it out on a plate, lower embarrassment barriers, and then in the wider city a choice of healthy, young congregations at every point of churchmanship from St Ebbes to Pusey House. They left Oxford, but the churchgoing stuck.
The conspicuous point, I thought, was that precisely none of any of this had been specifically youth orientated (at least liturgically).
Obviously, I recognise that there is a certain amount of privilege inherent in a post which is examining the after life of public schoolboys, Sandhurst/Dartmouth alumni, and former Oxford students, but I thought it was worth throwing out there as an observation none the less.
I'll leave it there as I suspect I'm in danger of rambling.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think your penultimate paragraph is very important, actually. The vast majority of people are not in the category you were observing, and would find the whole culture you describe quite alien.
Again, not a criticism, just an observation. An important thing to draw from that is that as much as church was "something you do" to them, it's "something other people do" to the majority.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Obviously, I recognise that there is a certain amount of privilege inherent in a post which is examining the after life of public schoolboys, Sandhurst/Dartmouth alumni, and former Oxford students, but I thought it was worth throwing out there as an observation none the less.
I'll leave it there as I suspect I'm in danger of rambling.
I wonder to what extent that church connection is habitand where faith in God comes in?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Y'see, I've a sneaking suspicion that the things that make church difficult for younger people are things that are often suffered in silence by older people as well.
Not always, of course, but does anyone enjoy singing an obscure hymn they've never heard of before to a tune that makes Morrissey seem melodically adventurous and Sisters of Mercy upbeat and lively?
(It's not always oldies - I'd put "Lord I lift your name on high" in this category)
Of course, if someone hardly ever goes to church then most of what's sung there is going to be 'obscure' to them, no matter what kind of music it is.
But music is always going to be a controversial issue in church. (I quite like 'Lord I life your name on high' myself.) Perhaps there should be more FEs that don't involve much singing.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Obviously, I recognise that there is a certain amount of privilege inherent in a post which is examining the after life of public schoolboys, Sandhurst/Dartmouth alumni, and former Oxford students, but I thought it was worth throwing out there as an observation none the less.
I'll leave it there as I suspect I'm in danger of rambling.
I wonder to what extent that church connection is habitand where faith in God comes in?
My guess would be that it varies from individual to individual and that it would be invidious to generalise.
Just saying.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Obviously, I recognise that there is a certain amount of privilege inherent in a post which is examining the after life of public schoolboys, Sandhurst/Dartmouth alumni, and former Oxford students, but I thought it was worth throwing out there as an observation none the less.
I'll leave it there as I suspect I'm in danger of rambling.
I wonder to what extent that church connection is habit and where faith in God comes in?
OTOH it seems that habit and faith do have a certain connection.
John Wesley was told to 'preach faith until you have it'.
The evangelistic concept of 'belonging before believing' supposes that people can become accustomed to the rituals and customs of church life before they personalise the message preached from the pulpit. We know from experience that church growth relies heavily on the children of members becoming habitualised to both the cultural and faith expectations of the group.
And some studies of secularisation start from the view that countless reductions and changes in religious habits, on a societal level, tend to precede the decline of faith.
On a personal level, though, Christianity obviously demands more than habit. Christians often eschew public religious rituals for a more private faith, and it could be argued that the NT doesn't do much to criticise them for that.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Well, you could argue that there wasn't much of a Christian culture in the NT anyway. Christianity was new and the church was new. There were Jewish traditions, but they didn't altogether fit in many ways, and Jesus hadn't been keen for them to be observed too closely.
The church I grew up in had the view that everyone had to have a specific conversion experience. The church I attend now definitely doesn't, but occasionally assumptions are made that everyone present considers themselves Christian, and that isn't always the case either.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The Bible isn't very prescritive about what the church should look like. That's why we've basically had to make it all up....
Regarding you other comment, in the mainstream churches, the boundaries between believer and non-believer can be rather blurred. It's easy to assume that unless an individual 'obviously' belongs to another religion he or she has benefited from some kind of diffusive benign Christian influence, and so is in some sense already a Christian. MOTR congregations won't dig to find how true this is.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The Bible isn't very prescritive about what the church should look like. That's why we've basically had to make it all up....
Regarding you other comment, in the mainstream churches, the boundaries between believer and non-believer can be rather blurred. It's easy to assume that unless an individual 'obviously' belongs to another religion he or she has benefited from some kind of diffusive benign Christian influence, and so is in some sense already a Christian. MOTR congregations won't dig to find how true this is.
Indeed, even think of it in those binary terms-- you're either a believer or a non-believer-- is probably unhelpful, as many of us come to faith in a more gradual way. Which means at any given point in time folks in the congregation may be somewhere along that spectrum.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I think there are pros and cons to this approach. It does give people space to develop faith in their own way without hassle or judgment.
In the British mainstream church context, though, it can be problematic. It de-prioritises evangelism, and makes it hard for churches to really nurture their people, because to do so would imply a shared trajectory, a common theological goal. And if there's no shared sense of the church being different from the world, or simply the nation, why bother with the church?
There's no simple solution here, and I accept that there must be realites that both kinds of church share. All churches negotiate with the culture around them.
Some commentators say that the popularity of certain churches has little to do with religion, and ISTM that there must be some truth in that if
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
... if a church is to grow in any way other than by transfer. Even young people raised in the faith need a certain something else to feel that they can belong.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
MOTR congregations won't dig to find how true this is.
We offer various opportunities for Christian formation - both for children and for adults, suitable for people at various stages of faith.
We don't present ourselves as thought police. If you want to be baptized, or confirmed, or received into the Episcopal Church, then there will be classes which you will have to take. But if you just want to come and sit in a pew and join in, we won't force anything on you. If you want to take communion, we won't ask more than you're baptized.
That's what I'd call nurturing - we offer things, and you come if you're ready for it.
But then, we do have a common theological goal. His name is Jesus. We're all at different points along the path, but the path leads to Him. If you want to go somewhere else, you're in the wrong store.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Round here we're demonizing them and the divided Christian men of three churches with 1% each of the village within a couple of hundred yards of each other are yet to man up. As I say elsewhere:
I peed off a friend at our church home group last night by being glib about neighbourhood youth alienation. That was before I read this:
"Countesthorpe resident Isobel Faulkner said her son Donny, 27, suffered from cerebral palsy, epilepsy and other disabilities and had to rely on a mobility scooter to get around.
Fighting back tears, she told the 200-strong meeting on Wednesday: "We've lived here 20 years now and my son has never had problems before.
"However, I'm now terrified every time he leaves the house to visit the shops or take our dogs for a walk.
"These youths have targeted him because of his disability. They throw mud and stones at him and abuse him by calling him foul names.""
This is VILE.
I'm STILL glib about it. Where are the MEN and women of our neighbourhoods? I fully expect the women to shame the men in to standing up. And I DO know what it's like. Big time. I lived on a tough estate in Wellingborough for about 15 years. When push came to shove ... I shoved. Stood up for my kids, my neighbours. Alone with my wife initially. I'm NOT advocating that at all. NOT advocating vigilantism, any kind of escalation, abusive, violent response. At all. I'm advocating a collective, strongly benevolent response by the whole community. Starting with the MEN. To protect the weak. Including alienated youth from themselves.
The men of the CHURCHES, of which there are three, divided: Anglican, Methodist and Baptist, one of which I'm a member for a start.
And yeah, it's easy for me, I'm moving from the village. I wish I weren't. And so, with no cost to myself, I lay down the challenge to the church men of this village to man up, to show the way.
It takes a village to raise a boy. Where is the village? Where is the UNITED Church supposedly at its heart?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I saw some twitter posts recently that struck me as relevant.
Someone (whom I don't know or follow - it was retweeted) was moving to a new place. She emailed a couple of churches asking if there was any system for giving lifts, because she has mobility problems.
One church didn't respond at all. The other one said "XXX church is nearer [the one that hadn't responded], we have passed your request on". No word, of course.
Her comment was that this was no way to encourage new (younger) people in. She probably won't bother, and she had made a whole lot more effort than most people would.
Then the churches complain that they have no younger people, who can't be bothered to get involved.
I do look back with nostalgia to the way that the churches across the city I lived in were enabling younger people to meet together and meet with God (mainly using para-church organisations, but still supporting them). And yet the church is still dying on its feet. So where will it be in 20-30 years time?
More importantly, where will the younger people growing up then get spiritual insight from? Where will there be the opportunities to engage with younger people with a Christian message? Will we be reduced to the ranting of the remaining extremists, which will put anyone off for life.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Churches not responding AT ALL to need. Tell me about it. I contacted every one within at least ten square miles of NE Cheshire, which is more than a handful, on behalf of a friend in need; every email for every church contact.
Nothing.
As for what's happening in our village, I'm leaving over the weekend and therefore NOTHING.
Edmund Burke comes to mind.
Don't worry, Islam will fill the vacuum.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
These non-responses are very sad, but I think we all know that most churches aren't set up to deal with ongoing serious health needs.
AFAIK there's little or no training for congregations to help them with members who have mental health problems. There's probably very little money to help make old buildings entirely friendly for members with mobility problems.
Churches that are in the throes of decline are likely to have very little energy just to think about these things in any depth. Of course, their lack of engagement makes their situation even worse, but I think church leaders in these kinds of churches can be so busy and overwhelmed that they don't feel able to take on any more projects.
I suppose there's room in the religious market for a very different kind of ministry that'll focus on these kinds of needs. But where is the money going to come from? Who would provide the incarnational leadership, the self-sacrificial lay engagement?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This was a guy living as responsibly as possible, like you or I would if we had to, in a field in their midst.
NOTHING.
He was run over shortly after, on his bike, cycling to work.
Hopefully it wasn't by a church member ...
"Knutsford City Limits"
[ 22. June 2016, 12:01: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
If you're talking about a man in need of housing I should think that a fear of the unknown was a major factor the various churchgoers here.
Once upon a time the churches had an official role in helping the needy, but secularisation has meant that we now expect official state agencies or charities to come to the aid of individuals with problems. We'll fundraise for an organisation, but providing a bed for a homeless person we don't know - someone who may have mental health or addiction issues - is beyond our comfort zone and our expectations.
Moreover, these decisions depend on individual circumstances. Many elderly churchgoers live alone and will be afraid; others live with non-Christian family members who feel no need to be incarnational; yet others have small children, and in a world of 'health and safety' concerns wouldn't want to risk bringing in a complete stranger.
In a large city it would probably be easier to know what to do, because the churches there have ministries to the disadvantaged, there are food banks, the clergy are used to disadvantaged people turning up for help and have often worked out some kind of response, etc. State help may also be easier to access in a city, of course.
[ 22. June 2016, 13:13: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This was church staff.
People who put their email addresses on web sites.
There's NO excuse SvitlanaV2.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
True. I'm fortunate to head up our church's extensive ministry to the homeless. But we depend on a vast array of help-- a good, coordinated interdenominational coalition of churches, an unusually good relationship with the city that provides resources and funding, good support from local businesses that help with funding, a large seminary that also assists. It's an unusually high degree of cooperation-- and even with all that, we're stretched very very thin. If even one of those assets were not in place-- churches unwilling to work cooperatively say, or an antagonistic city or business community (as is the case in many, if not most, cities) and we'd be just as helpless as the churches Martin is seeing.
Then there's the issue of timing. Our efforts depend on a lot of advance planning/prep, great organization to pool these resources. When something happens outside of those parameters-- e.g. unseasonable weather that doesn't fit the pattern we're prepared to respond to-- we find ourselves scrambling or doing nothing. A one-off request would be just as difficult to handle.
The lack of response may signal indifference but it could also signify that feeling of helplessness-- wanting to help but unable to see how.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There's NO excuse SvitlanaV2.
I wasn't saying there was an 'excuse' as such. I'm just trying to understand what was going on. What do YOU think was going on?
I feel that deep down you knew that these (middle class?) village churches were probably not going to be of much help before you contacted them. You were already critical of their theology and their general approach, and they were probably wary of any missives that came from you....
Contacting social services in the neighbouring town or city would have been practical,though. Is this what happened, in the end?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The lack of response may signal indifference but it could also signify that feeling of helplessness-- wanting to help but unable to see how.
It may also signify that the church "contact us" email address isn't consulted very much - if at all.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
But the lady wanting to get someone to help her to church, surely that is just a reasonable request, something that churches should be easily able to provide.
I can accept that major needs can cause problems and worries. I can see that a church of 20 people might be reluctant to offer help for every homeless person who comes to their attention - it can get overwhelming. That is not the problem.
It is about being prepared to make some effort to engage with the community. In a way that the community wants, rather than simply doing what the church wants to do.
In the end, it is not about being a church, being a Christian, it is about being a reasonable human being. It is really something when this is a standard that the church is struggling to achieve.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I was responding mostly to Martin's post. I agree that giving someone a lift to church should be fairly simple, although in my experience that can often escalate into something else, a much, much larger obligation. Not that that's an excuse, but it does make it somewhat more understandable.
Rather than complete apathy, I expect it's something more like bystander effect. In the original Kitty Genovose case, it was initially thought that the numerous witnesses who did not intervene or call for help were apathetic/ shockingly lacking in compassion. Interviews with the witnesses, though, showed they were in fact horrified by what they saw, deeply concerned, troubled for years afterwards. The lack of response seemed to have more to do with the number of witnesses and a feeling that "someone must have done something" (indeed, the witnesses kept asking themselves, 'why aren't the police here yet???' despite no one calling for help).
In this case, the fact that the request is broadly made may in fact be the problem. A specific request to a single, specific person might be more effective. Of course, if you are new to a community, that could be hard to achieve w/o just pulling names at random from a phone book.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
cliffdweller - I get where you were referring to. I just wanted to make it clear that even when the expectation is not that high, the church still fails. I can understand that where the request is very difficult, there is an argument for why they can't do it.
That doesn't excuse it. It simply means that, with a bigger picture, it may be that there is a good reason. I mean, so often, there is not, it is just narrow-mindedness and self-serving, but there might be justification.
But if you are running a church, and you cannot help one person to get there, who has asked to attend, that seems unforgiveable. How can you expect a group - any group - to care about homelessness, bullying whatever community issues, when they cannot even be self-serving enough to help someone come to a meeting? How welcoming is that?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
SvitlanaV2. It may not seem like it on SOF, but I know how to communicate appropriately. I was ASTOUNDED at the null response. To myself. Let alone to my friend. This isn't about a lift to church, it's about charity. Simple, Christian charity.
I LIKE you SvitlanaV2, that can't change, so it comes as a surprise that you extrapolated as you did. That's rhetorical by the way.
As I said, he, or rather she, as this is a person undergoing gender re-assignment, was run down, not over (as I originally said) to be accurate and suffered nasty superficial injuries needing hospitalization, plastic surgery, that sort of thing. There was a whip-round at work. She is an IT genius who was just starting on a contract job in the middle of nowhere. I'd been working with her for months. Known her for years.
She was found overextended and at the beginning of gender re-assignment when the crash of 2008 came. Lost her financial services IT job, had massive negative equity, lost EVERYTHING and ended on the street. Where on top of these blows she was assaulted.
She was supported in hostels in London while trying to network back in to IT. That finally delivered. Including her to the field near Knutsford. Which was rational given her resources.
I was her ONLY church contact. I thought she should have more. I was wrong wasn't I?
She now lives in La Linea and works in Gibraltar surrounded by Russian IT geniuses. How she managed between being run down until the compensation came I don't know. Being very smart, extroverted, disturbingly androgynously vulnerably beautiful it seems that Social Services DID actually do something. I'll ask her.
The church was like God. Absent.
[ 22. June 2016, 21:05: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
SvitlanaV2. It may not seem like it on SOF, but I know how to communicate appropriately. I was ASTOUNDED at the null response. To myself. Let alone to my friend. This isn't about a lift to church, it's about charity. Simple, Christian charity.
I LIKE you SvitlanaV2, that can't change, so it comes as a surprise that you extrapolated as you did. That's rhetorical by the way.
[...]
The church was like God. Absent.
If you thought I was being rude to you above I apologise; that wasn't my intention at all. I was simply considering previous threads where you've often given the impression of being critical of the churches you've engaged with, and that you in turn have been treated as a sort of 'token liberal' in some of them. IOW, if there's any 'history' between you and the churches in this village, it might have worked against a helpful dialogue in this situation.
But of course, I don't know. I don't know what relationship you have with the leadership in other churches, nor what your status is in your own church. If you'd got your own minister on board first, perhaps he could have used his/her authority to get appropriate assistance from others.
For the record, I do think it would have been Christlike and righteous if 'the [institutional] church' had responded to the need that you discovered.
OTOH, it strikes me that YOU were the church in this situation. I don't envision 'the church' as an institution on one side and individual Christians fighting lonely battles on the other. We're all 'the church'. You're a Christian, you understood the situation better than anyone else because this was your friend, and you responded. Your hands were God's hands, as people sometimes say. So ISTM that God wasn't absent. YMMV, of course.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hey, SvitlanaV2, we cool. You couldn't be rude if you wanted to be. And yeah, I got previous here big time. But I'm guilelessly guileful. The null response by the Church was a nail in the coffin of my expectations, all part of my Great Disappointment.
But as I've said, last week I was away with four charismatic evangelicals and another liberal and nine guys from the edge and it was bloody marvellous. Nobody was saved this year. Hooray!! The worst damnationist volunteer wasn't there. I missed him. He's a former Ratae enforcer.
Last year, when we baptized a guy (a nice BIG lad of 30 with a mental age of about a quarter that) after climbing up a river, the boss asked if I was OK with it, expecting me to be detached at best, I said I thought it was lovely and was moved to be part of it, lay on hands the lot.
My Hooray is about the char evo expectations not being met just like mine ent! And together we had the best time.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I don't always understand what Martin is saying, but when I do, I like him. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The above posts criticise when churches don't help with transport and people in other kinds of need. I can't promise we get it right every time, but here are a couple of suggestions based on what happens at our shack - there is a named person who is transport coordinator. People needing lifts to church are paired up with those willing to offer lifts. There is a long list of telephone information / helpline numbers kept in church so that, in case of need or difficulty, those concerned can find out where best to obtain information and help. Perhaps being proactive in thinking these issues through, and providing relevant contact details, is a good initial way forward.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Something I learned recently. The most effective tool in getting millennials back to church is to invite them. Doesn't have to be to any special event, just tell them why you like your church and then invite them, "Would you like to come?"
The worst that can happen is that they say no.
But it might not be no forever.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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