Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Interesting question though, is the Archbish responsible for faculties?

I think the person with overall responsibility is the Dean of the Arches, but presumably the powers are delegated from the Archbishops.

Maybe it is a silly Church Law exam question: could an Archbish overrule the Court of Arches decision?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
If you are in New Malden, then I would suggest your question needs to be addressed to whichever diocese grants your faculties. Not Justin, being head honcho of a diocese in Kent.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Was it tacky?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Interesting question though, is the Archbish responsible for faculties?

I think the person with overall responsibility is the Dean of the Arches, but presumably the powers are delegated from the Archbishops.

Maybe it is a silly Church Law exam question: could an Archbish overrule the Court of Arches decision?

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The usual post responsible is the Chancellor of the Diocese I think. Or whichever post takes their place.

But given the volume of requests, there's usually some support mechanism for them, probably involving a committee to advise.

I'm not sure it is possible to say more at this stage. Was the proposal supported by the PCC? Is there some minority opposed? Does the Diocese have a policy on iconography that this "picture" (what sort?) violates.

And no doubt etc. etc.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
If you are in New Malden, then I would suggest your question needs to be addressed to whichever diocese grants your faculties. Not Justin, being head honcho of a diocese in Kent.

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It would not be a problem here, our archdeacon's quite lovely. Long may he survive.

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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:

quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Was it tacky?

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No it was not, an etching in glass of the vision from the book of Revelation. On a more general note, try to introduce the intercession of saints in any (official, public) part of the liturgy and see how far you'll go if anyone complains.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:

quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Was it tacky?

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No it was not, an etching in glass of the vision from the book of Revelation. On a more general note, try to introduce the intercession of saints in any (official, public) part of the liturgy and see how far you'll go if anyone complains.

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You mean like this? (in subject matter). From a church near here. Clearly the diocese of Winchester didn't object to that one!

Thanks for filling in the subject matter a bit. Not sure I've got any more insights, though. Our requests for faculties have always gone through without any objections so I have no insight into what happens if there is a split in opinions in the parish.

(A faculty, BTW, Golden Key, is simply a permission to do something that requires prior approval. Most commonly to do with the fabric of the church. As churches actually belong to the CofE, then it acts as the ecclesiastical equivalent of civil planning permission, though its subject matter goes beyond that.)

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by BroJames:
Thop0se who want a bit more context can find the sermon here.

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Thanks, Brother James, I wonder who wrote it for him. I'm a voracious reader of the Fathers but I cannot imagine Amphilochios of Iconium is on Abp's Justin's bedside table, heck, he does not even have an entry in Drobner. I'm not even sure he's translated.

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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
If someone donates it, you get the faculty in reverse - right?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
If someone donates it, you get the faculty in reverse - right?

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I don't think there is any kind of pass on donations. I'm sure there are many things in churches which have been donated, but if anyone notices (presumably the archdeacon at very least) a faculty decision can be made that it is taken down and sold/donated/given away.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Not sure it counts for an awful lot, but it would be a bit strange for an Archbishop to encourage asking for the invocation of the saints when at one of the 39 articles that all CofE priests are supposed to affirm their loyalty to with expressly calls the practice repugnant (article 12).

It doesn't bother me really, I think the 39 articles are a load of cobblers and I'm never likely to have to affirm, promise or do anything else to them. It does seem to be rather hypocritical of the hierarchy, however.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Not sure it counts for an awful lot, but it would be a bit strange for an Archbishop to encourage asking for the invocation of the saints when at one of the 39 articles that all CofE priests are supposed to affirm their loyalty to with expressly calls the practice repugnant (article 12).

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
Possibly, but given that even the most snakebelly low Evangelical church probably has images of saints in its stained glass windows, it doesn't seem that an image of a saint is in itself regarded as a filthy rag of popery offered to the scarlet lady of the seven hills. Though if the image also says something like 'Hail immaculate co-redemptrix' you might have something of a problem.

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quote:

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On a more general note, try to introduce the intercession of saints in any (official, public) part of the liturgy and see how far you'll go if anyone complains.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I live there now, but this was years ago in another parish. It's a more global 'problem' though. Officially and on ecumenical occasions, our prelates use language and forms of worship that they disallow on their own turf.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Moo:
I'm another person who doesn't know what a faculty is.

Moo

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
I'm another person who doesn't know what a faculty is.

Moo

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:
A f...in nightmare, in most cases, and an excuse for your ecclesiastical betters to poke their nose into the organisation of your parish.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:

quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
I'm another person who doesn't know what a faculty is.

Moo

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A f...in nightmare, in most cases, and an excuse for your ecclesiastical betters to poke their nose into the organisation of your parish.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
Everyone knows Justin's diary looks like this:

8:00 Morning prayer
9:00 Finish sermon. NB check Wikipedia - do telegrams count as social media?
10:00 Chat with Akinola - must remind him that excommunicating the C of E on Lillibet's 90th birthday would be rather poor taste. (NB is he one of the corrupt ones? Must ask David.)
11:00 Talk to chap on the Today programme about our wholehearted commitment to positive sounding abstract nouns and utter rejection of negative sounding abstract nouns.
12:00 Lunch with Lillibet. Mustn't forget chew toy for corgis. Bishop of Dover will do.
14:00 Send chaser email to Church Commissioners. Check if they are still investing in Afghan warlords.
15:00 Some chappie from the BBC wants to know if Anglican priests really do have diplomatic immunity from the Vatican.
16:00 Launch reign of terror against High Anglicans in New Malden. Don't forget matches!!! NB don't ask Waitrose for 'bloody stakes' this time - open to misinterpretation.
17:00 Pop into House of Lords to see if there's anything good on.
18:00 Pontius Pilates class (handwashing exercises)
18:30 Choral Evensong. Must remember to vet sermon for Theopaschitist heresy.
20:00 Pub. (Check that ghastly Mr Farage isn't present.)

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I know it's way back in the thread but I only just found this and it's the funniest thing I've read all morning.


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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:

quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
I'm another person who doesn't know what a faculty is.

Moo

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A f...in nightmare, in most cases, and an excuse for your ecclesiastical betters to poke their nose into the organisation of your parish.

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That's one side of the coin - the other might be when your PCC want to "re-order" (ie move) a medieval font which has been quite happily minding its own business since the 14th century. *Then* it's quite good that they can't just go ahead and do it...*

*lest there is any wailing about the incumbent and PCC knowing what's best for their parish it should be noted that the re-ordering I'm thinking of did indeed eventually go ahead - just not in the way originally proposed.

Having to get a faculty and meet stringent requirements meant that the original meeting of the parish "good ideas club" couldn't get away with doing the first thing that had come into their head.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:
A f...in nightmare, in most cases, and an excuse for your ecclesiastical betters to poke their nose into the organisation of your parish.

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The problem here is that the Anglican church is a hierarchical system, so even if one is the incumbent of a parish, there is no sense that it is "your parish" nor that the system is unable to "poke its nose" into the local organising of it.

Indeed, uniquely amongst all the churches in the UK, the law explicitly states that a system of ecclesiastical courts can oversee changes to the fabric of Anglican buildings.

Of course, nobody is forced to work within the strictures of the Anglican church if you don't like it.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
Everyone knows Justin's diary looks like this: 'snip'

11:00 Talk to chap on the Today programme about our wholehearted commitment to positive sounding abstract nouns and utter rejection of negative sounding abstract nouns.

'snip

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Love this. Thank you.

Martin P60 Love that picture. What is the website you got it from? Thank you.

If the picture in question is clearly about the 'Assumption of the Virgin Mary' then I guess therein lies your problem if your Diocesan structures are heavily low church in their views.

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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:
then how come quite a few evangelical churches around me, if not all, can strip their churches bare of absolutely everything. I mean everything. Carpet the sanctuary, have cinema seating installed, a drum kit where the altar used to be and banners a-go-go, whereas it takes me months to simply be allowed to reserve the blessed sacrament of the Coptic community who worships with us, or to be allowed to encase a MU banner, admittedly rather 'assumptionish' looking?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:
then how come quite a few evangelical churches around me, if not all, can strip their churches bare of absolutely everything. I mean everything. Carpet the sanctuary, have cinema seating installed, a drum kit where the altar used to be and banners a-go-go, whereas it takes me months to simply be allowed to reserve the blessed sacrament of the Coptic community who worships with us, or to be allowed to encase a MU banner, admittedly rather 'assumptionish' looking?

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I'm not playing whataboutery tennis. If you have a problem with other parishes and whether the changes they've made are or should be under the faculty regulations, you should take it up with an appropriate person in your diocese. I'm guessing that's the archdeacon in the first instance or possibly the Chancellor.

If you don't like the way the faculty system does things having been through the whole process of appeals, then you have one option left open to you. Don't let the door hit you as you leave.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:
then how come quite a few evangelical churches around me, if not all, can strip their churches bare of absolutely everything. I mean everything. Carpet the sanctuary, have cinema seating installed, a drum kit where the altar used to be and banners a-go-go, whereas it takes me months to simply be allowed to reserve the blessed sacrament of the Coptic community who worships with us, or to be allowed to encase a MU banner, admittedly rather 'assumptionish' looking?

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I'm not playing whataboutery tennis. If you have a problem with other parishes and whether the changes they've made are or should be under the faculty regulations, you should take it up with an appropriate person in your diocese. I'm guessing that's the archdeacon in the first instance or possibly the Chancellor.

If you don't like the way the faculty system does things having been through the whole process of appeals, then you have one option left open to you. Don't let the door hit you as you leave.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Gee D:
... BTW, I'd doubt very much that a faculty is needed any more to bring in drum kits than to take up the hemline of a cassock to suit a new chorister.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gee D:
... BTW, I'd doubt very much that a faculty is needed any more to bring in drum kits than to take up the hemline of a cassock to suit a new chorister.

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It isn't. A collection of drums are not a fixture.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Joesaphat:

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gee D:
... BTW, I'd doubt very much that a faculty is needed any more to bring in drum kits than to take up the hemline of a cassock to suit a new chorister.

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It isn't. A collection of drums are not a fixture.

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No, but removing a stone victorian altar, sorry, communion table, certainly does, and all the statuary, and organs, and pews, and reredos... need I go on?

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