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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The value of good works prior to justification
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
@cliffdweller. Setting the question in the context of God's overall work of redemption is something I find very helpful. @Gamiel - should have said I also found your first thoughts upthread highly pertinent.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Too neat and too simplistic, Lamb Chopped. It seems to me that some of the folks who go around bombing abortion clinics and beating up gays are actually pretty well steeped in the scriptures.
You think? I hear a ton of instances of the same prooftexts, but no more depth than a frog pond in August. In fact I don't think I've ever come across anyone well-versed in the Scriptures who pulled this kind of shit. To be sure, this is just anecdata; but my experience is that those who go off the deep end are usually working from a sheet of proof verses (often out of context) and couldn't find 2 Corinthians, or their own asses, with both hands.
To be sure, being well-steeped in the Scripture is not a cure-all; but I think most people vastly over-estimate the amount of Scriptural knowledge (say) Westboro members have. Certainly the cultists knocking on my door are pitifully armed with the same handful of verses.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
From what I can gather, the Lutheran stance can be even 'bleaker' in some ways on this issue than either Westminster or the 39 Articles - but I might be getting the wrong end of the stick.
Gosh, I really wonder what that's about. I'm guessing wrong end of the stick (sorry), but if you remember more, let me know.
The Lutheran stance is and always was that if you are saved, all glory to God, hurray! and if you go the other way, it's your own damned fault, and why were you such an idiot to choose that, dude? We don't at all believe that God predestines anybody whatsoever to hell. Anybody who gets there does it much against God's will and in the teeth of a ton of interventions, the Cross being the first and foremost. And on the day of judgment, nobody is going to be able to whine "but it's not FAIR" to God, because we will all be self-sentenced.
To be sure, I am hoping that hell will be as empty as possible, because that's certainly what God wants, and that's what Christ deserves--that he should have as many of the people he loves with him forever in safety and joy. But God will not in the end overrule human free will.
[ 21. June 2016, 03:48: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
To be sure, I am hoping that hell will be as empty as possible, because that's certainly what God wants, and that's what Christ deserves--that he should have as many of the people he loves with him forever in safety and joy. But God will not in the end overrule human free will.
This is what I believe. Add to that that I think ultimately God will outwait all of us. But as Screwtape says, "He cannot ravish, he can only woo."
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Quite clear about works having no salvific benefit (we are hopeless lost without God's intervening grace). How would a Lutheran answer the question "What value does God place on works that do not come from faith? Picking up Gamaliel's reference to various Centurions in the NT it would seem that such acts attract God's approval (as opposed to somewhat less disapproval than other acts).
@Mousetheif - not sure from your posts how the Orthodox would answer the same question.
What value does God put on this stuff? Well, we have that bit on Micah (it was Micah, wasn't it?).
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly
And to love mercy
And to walk humbly with your God?
Elsewhere we have Jesus speaking of unnamed "whoevers" who offer his followers a cup of cold water, and says "they will surely not lose their reward." Those whoevers--who are they? I am hoping and banking on them being people like my godchildren's parents, who have opened their hearts to us, Jesus' servants, even if they refuse as of yet to acknowledge him in his own name. That will come, I hope. Right now they seem to be loving him as they see him in us--and sooner or later that veil will tear.
Then there are the sheep (not the goats
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) ) who apparently did habitual acts of kindness without much thinking about why or who they were doing them to. They inherit the Kingdom at Jesus' word, though it is not at all clear that they were conscious, fully catechized believers.
The widow with the two small coins comes in for praise, as does the widow who took care of Elijah by cooking for him and giving him a place to stay. The first, well, we know little about her faith except that Jesus praises her (which is the best testimony there is, so maybe I should leave her out of this list). The second keeps referring to "the Lord YOUR God" when she talks to Elijah instead of "the Lord OUR God." Since she lives near Sidon and is a Gentile, not a Jew, this probably means something. At least that she is not yet a fully-signed up convert.
I could go on and on but I'm too windy already. Suffice it to say that God appears to love this stuff--acts of goodness and mercy etc.--no matter how flawed. But loving it (and rewarding it!) and granting salvation in the basis of it are two totally different things. I may adore the drawing my child brings me, but it's going to hang on the refrigerator--not in the Louvre.
The value of good works is inestimable. But salvation is not an award you can purchase with this value, or any other kind of value. It is a gift of God.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But God will not in the end overrule human free will.
Agreed, but I'm interested to hear it coming from someone who belongs to a denomination named after a man whose On The Bondage Of The Will was the work of which he was most proud.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@Ramarius, I think MT would be better placed to answer this than me. I can have an unfortunate tendency to jump the gun and put words in other people's mouths or answer on their behalf - and I've had Hostly and Admin warnings about tgat.
However, as you have addressed the question to me now as well as to MT I feel I can legitimately venture an answer.
As far as I understand it, the Orthodox don't make the same sort of distinctions that some Western Christian traditions have about the precise mechanics of these things - good works are good works irrespective of whether the person performing them is regenerate or not.
The evaluation lies in the benefit they bring. Only God knows and can judge the purity of motive and so on.
If you were rescued from drowning, would it matter if your rescuer were an atheist, a Hindu, a Buddhist, Pentecostal, RC or Mormon?
From an Orthodox perspective, as I understand it, the question doesn't really arise. It's a non-issue. Not because they don't understand the kind of distinctions that early Protestant Christians - whether Lutheran, Calvinist/Reformed or Anglican - were trying to make in relation to make in reaction to late-medieval Roman Catholicism - but these distinctions don't make sense to them in their particular context.
There are several reasons for this. For one thing, whilst they don't believe in salvation by works - although it can sound that way if you're not used to it - they are synergists and not monergists - and also they see salvation more as a process rather than some kind of crisis experience of regeneration - not that they would dismiss such a thing necessarily.
MT will correct me if I have got the wrong end of the stick.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@Lamb Chopped, I think we're talking past each other to a certain extent. I agree with you that Westboro' types and off-at-the-deep-end people in all traditions tend to have a very wooden, proof-text list approach.
My issue, I suppose, isn't that of the extremists- we'll always have those with us - but the kind of points Cliffdweller is making about the 'unregenerate' being part and parcel of God's Kingdom plan, if you like - often unawares.
You see elements of that in both the OT and NT.
Of course, the Reformed and Lutheran traditions readily ackniwledge that - and as Nick Tamen and Jengie Jon have indicated, there is a more nuanced view across the broader Reformed tradition than can sometimes be found in some forms of evangelicalism.
By and large, I don't see evangelicals carping at good stuff done outside of a faith-context or outside their particular tradition - but it does happen.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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W Hyatt
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# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Quite clear about works having no salvific benefit (we are hopeless lost without God's intervening grace). How would a Lutheran answer the question "What value does God place on works that do not come from faith? Picking up Gamaliel's reference to various Centurions in the NT it would seem that such acts attract God's approval (as opposed to somewhat less disapproval than other acts).
@Mousetheif - not sure from your posts how the Orthodox would answer the same question.
What value does God put on this stuff? Well, we have that bit on Micah (it was Micah, wasn't it?).
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly
And to love mercy
And to walk humbly with your God?
Elsewhere we have Jesus speaking of unnamed "whoevers" who offer his followers a cup of cold water, and says "they will surely not lose their reward." Those whoevers--who are they? I am hoping and banking on them being people like my godchildren's parents, who have opened their hearts to us, Jesus' servants, even if they refuse as of yet to acknowledge him in his own name. That will come, I hope. Right now they seem to be loving him as they see him in us--and sooner or later that veil will tear.
Then there are the sheep (not the goats
) who apparently did habitual acts of kindness without much thinking about why or who they were doing them to. They inherit the Kingdom at Jesus' word, though it is not at all clear that they were conscious, fully catechized believers.
The widow with the two small coins comes in for praise, as does the widow who took care of Elijah by cooking for him and giving him a place to stay. The first, well, we know little about her faith except that Jesus praises her (which is the best testimony there is, so maybe I should leave her out of this list). The second keeps referring to "the Lord YOUR God" when she talks to Elijah instead of "the Lord OUR God." Since she lives near Sidon and is a Gentile, not a Jew, this probably means something. At least that she is not yet a fully-signed up convert.
I could go on and on but I'm too windy already. Suffice it to say that God appears to love this stuff--acts of goodness and mercy etc.--no matter how flawed. But loving it (and rewarding it!) and granting salvation in the basis of it are two totally different things. I may adore the drawing my child brings me, but it's going to hang on the refrigerator--not in the Louvre.
The value of good works is inestimable. But salvation is not an award you can purchase with this value, or any other kind of value. It is a gift of God.
Yes, good works do not merit us a reward of salvation, and God does not judge our good works based on the pureness of our heart, but it does not necessarily follow from that that good works have nothing to do with salvation. You mentioned the idea that we can choose not to accept God's salvation, so the question is how we go about making that choice. Do we make a choice by what we say? By what we think? What we believe? Is it possible for us to believe something if we never attempt to put it into practice?
If I believe that exercise is good and worthwhile, I will believe it even more if I actually get myself to do it every day. If I believe that treating my neighbor well is good and worthwhile, I will believe it even more if I actually get myself to do it every day.
If God gives us a choice about accepting grace and salvation, then it makes sense if the way we go about exercising that choice is by choosing how we try to live our life. It has nothing to do with merit or the pureness of our motives. Trying to do good works and live according to God's will is simply the way we can most completely commit ourselves to our choice to be faithful. It's how our faith becomes a living faith.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
Perhaps we can think of good works as similar to the sacraments.
In Reformed theology, the sacraments are not symbols, they aren't merit-worthy human action, they are signs-- visible signs of God's invisible action.
So good works aren't earning us anything, but they are visible signs that point us to something-- the presence and power of the Spirit at work. When we see someone overcoming our default sinful urges towards selfishness, greed, self-interest and complacency, that is a sign that God is at work. We can point to it and say "good one, Lord!"
The fact that some show these signs before conversion is again consistent with our sacramental theology. We baptize babies because, as a sign, it points us to the truth that God's gift of grace comes to us prior to our response of faith (Rom. 5:8)-- that God acts first. So we shouldn't be surprised to see that in other people's lives-- that God is moving and working redemptively (setting things right inwardly) even before they respond in faith to call upon his name.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I am however clear that those who are likely to be saved are not those assured that they are saved, but those that have got over the need to know.
I'm unclear as to how anyone who is aware of their need for salvation can be in any way blasé about whether they will get it or not.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm fairly sure that at some point in spiritual growth one does start caring more about God himself than about one's own welfare--but I don't think this stage is a prerequisite for anything. Tons of us are going to die in the faith before we ever get to that point, and that's okay.
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
@W Hyatt. You wrote
If God gives us a choice about accepting grace and salvation, then it makes sense if the way we go about exercising that choice is by choosing how we try to live our life. It has nothing to do with merit or the pureness of our motives. Trying to do good works and live according to God's will is simply the way we can most completely commit ourselves to our choice to be faithful. It's how our faith becomes a living faith.
I suspect Erasmus would say "amen" to that. The more self aware I become, the more I recognise the variety of motives - and their relative purity - for decisions I make. The key point I take from your post is the desire, within those motives, to live before God or to use your words according to God's will.
[ 21. June 2016, 17:19: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
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mousethief
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# 953
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Posted
Well said, W Hyatt.
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
I was reminded this evening of George Macdonald's statement that God is easy to please but hard to satisfy.
I shall reflect on that in the context of this subject.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And would you say those people have ever bothered to read the Bible, particularly the "love your neighbor" bits?
I won't say it's impossible, but I would expect it's very hard to actually read the thing and go on being quite comfortable killing people (as opposed to half-snoozing through a sermon on Sunday or digging through extremist websites that cherrypick your verses for you). There's power in the Scriptures.
But if they fall under "I go to church when the wife drags me, and then I snooze through the readings and sermon, and my pastor is just as much of a prick as I am"--well, I'd class such people as further examples of "doesn't know what the hell Christianity is, doesn't know enough to even be a hypocrite."
And really, I'd be astonished to see much in the way of good works from such a person anyway.
Thank God we are not as other men, eh?
The world is full of people who know their Bible better than you, who love their neighbour better than you and kill.
The other guy you describe doesn't parade his good works for you to see.
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Love wins
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fausto
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# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Perhaps we can think of good works as similar to the sacraments.
In Reformed theology, the sacraments are not symbols, they aren't merit-worthy human action, they are signs-- visible signs of God's invisible action.
So good works aren't earning us anything, but they are visible signs that point us to something-- the presence and power of the Spirit at work. When we see someone overcoming our default sinful urges towards selfishness, greed, self-interest and complacency, that is a sign that God is at work. We can point to it and say "good one, Lord!"
The fact that some show these signs before conversion is again consistent with our sacramental theology. We baptize babies because, as a sign, it points us to the truth that God's gift of grace comes to us prior to our response of faith (Rom. 5:8)-- that God acts first. So we shouldn't be surprised to see that in other people's lives-- that God is moving and working redemptively (setting things right inwardly) even before they respond in faith to call upon his name.
As you know, cliffdweller, I've got a love-hate relationship with Reformed theology.
This is one of the parts I love.
Can we ever rightly dismiss or deny the signs of God's presence when they are manifested in others, even those who may not be able to fully recognize it themselves? Or does that only reveal our own corresponding inability to recognize it?
God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God in them. 1 John 4:16
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
The whole works v faith thing has always puzzled me.
If one does good for one's fellows regardless of faith, does this not show a true understanding of God, even if one does not believe? And, if one is not drawn to do good for one's fellows, even in the presence of belief, does this not indicate a lack of acceptance of God?
This is how I read Jesus' words and actions.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The whole works v faith thing has always puzzled me.
If one does good for one's fellows regardless of faith, does this not show a true understanding of God, even if one does not believe? And, if one is not drawn to do good for one's fellows, even in the presence of belief, does this not indicate a lack of acceptance of God?
This is how I read Jesus' words and actions.
Shows people understand that God is good and celebrates goodness in action. Doesn't show the people understand that sin is killing 'em and no amount of good works will help them with that. The antidote to sin is grace and forgiveness.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
As you know, cliffdweller, I've got a love-hate relationship with Reformed theology.
This is one of the parts I love.
Right there with ya on both counts buddy.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The whole works v faith thing has always puzzled me.
If one does good for one's fellows regardless of faith, does this not show a true understanding of God, even if one does not believe? And, if one is not drawn to do good for one's fellows, even in the presence of belief, does this not indicate a lack of acceptance of God?
This is how I read Jesus' words and actions.
Shows people understand that God is good and celebrates goodness in action. Doesn't show the people understand that sin is killing 'em and no amount of good works will help them with that. The antidote to sin is grace and forgiveness.
But don't their actions show that grace is working in their lives? What you really mean is that the antidote is, they have to join our team. Because forgiveness has thick black borders.
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
@Mousetheif. Good work doesn't necessarily mean grace is at work. The human soul is like a dirty mirror - God's image is tarnished (not totally depraved). So you'd expect some evidence of the image of God prior to justification. It's only grace that deals with the poison of sin. Sounds thoroughly Orthodox to me.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The whole works v faith thing has always puzzled me.
If one does good for one's fellows regardless of faith, does this not show a true understanding of God, even if one does not believe? And, if one is not drawn to do good for one's fellows, even in the presence of belief, does this not indicate a lack of acceptance of God?
This is how I read Jesus' words and actions.
Shows people understand that God is good and celebrates goodness in action. Doesn't show the people understand that sin is killing 'em and no amount of good works will help them with that. The antidote to sin is grace and forgiveness.
But don't their actions show that grace is working in their lives? What you really mean is that the antidote is, they have to join our team. Because forgiveness has thick black borders.
Yes, exactly. Our problem is too narrow a definition of "grace" and too narrow a definition of "salvation." Sure, "grace" means "forgiveness of sin"-- but it also means transformation, 2nd chances, renewed hearts. And "salvation" means "getting into heaven when we die" but it also means God working and moving in this world to change and transform and recreate it into what it was intended to be.
We take those very narrow definitions and we read it into Jesus' words. So Jesus says "*I* am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but thru me." We hear "*Verbal profession of faith in me * is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but thru such a verbal profession of faith ."
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
@Mousetheif. Good work doesn't necessarily mean grace is at work. The human soul is like a dirty mirror - God's image is tarnished (not totally depraved). So you'd expect some evidence of the image of God prior to justification. It's only grace that deals with the poison of sin. Sounds thoroughly Orthodox to me.
Not at all. That's not how we understand "Grace." What deals with the poison of sin is Christ's resurrection. Not joining a particular team which keeps grace all to itself. The OC is very explicit that membership in the OC does not guarantee salvation and non-membership does not prevent it.
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fausto
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# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
So Jesus says "*I* am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but thru me." We hear "*Verbal profession of faith in me * is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but thru such a verbal profession of faith ."
This reminded me of another internet discussion we both were involved in almost exactly ten years ago now (!) in which you said that the verse, rather than separating those who were "in" from those who were "out",
quote:
emphasizes that we're all in the same boat. The only way anyone "gets in" -- Jew, Christian, non-Christian -- is through the redemptive grace of Jesus Christ. And Jesus is not the sole possession of anyone -- not even Christians. It cuts through that sense of moral superiority where salvation is tied to doctrinal purity…. [T]he text never says a word about beliefs. And my experience of Jesus, both in the gospels and in my life, is that Jesus ALWAYS has more grace than I do. So however wide I might open the door, I can expect that Jesus will open it even wider. It affirms the old evangelical truth that Jesus died, yes, for the whole world, not just a select few. It's not so much that we know his name, as that he knows ours.
And I said,
quote:
If you think about it, this is very good news even for the non-believers among us. Even if ... Jesus is the only way, we don’t necessarily need to know him by name, because he already knows us by name and loves us anyway. For anyone in fear or doubt, knowing that that’s the only consequence of being wrong can be a huge relief.
[ 25. June 2016, 02:17: Message edited by: fausto ]
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
Oh yes I remember that
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The OC is very explicit that membership in the OC does not guarantee salvation and non-membership does not prevent it.
That is the only reasonable interpretation of Jesus' teachings. The only interpretation that jibes with the Christian view of God's nature.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The OC is very explicit that membership in the OC does not guarantee salvation and non-membership does not prevent it.
That is the only reasonable interpretation of Jesus' teachings. The only interpretation that jibes with the Christian view of God's nature.
And it's really just the application of two Scripture passages any Christian would presumably know. The first is the parable of the wheat and the tares, and the latter "I have sheep not of this fold."
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
Since we do good stuff because we are made in God's image then by definition, doing good isn't the preserve of any particular group. Rom 2:14 - Gentiles do good "by nature." According to the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible) "doing good" means working to God's glory and honour and not our own. Gentiles can follow the law written on their conscience in the same way the Jews are guided into what pleases God through the Mosaic law.
Motive is crucial to detemining whether a work is "good." St Maximos the Confessor reckoned that whilst many human activities are good in themselves, they turn out to be "not good because of the motive for which they are done." So self glory is an example of a "not good" motive. Who decides about motives? Only God can make that call. God "searches our purpose."
Although we do good, which is what God created us for, we also act contrary to our nature by doing bad. Resolving the consequences of that needs God to intervene. Cornelius the centurion in Acts 10 did loads of good works - these prepared him for conversion, but he still needed converting. "Even good people need Christ."
Something good works can't help you with is if you reject Christ. That's the basis of our condemnation at the judgement.
So yeah, God has mercy where he chooses to and we'll meet some surprising people in heaven. But we're sent to preach the gospel for a reason - people need to hear it because the only sure path to partaking of the divine nature begins with new birth. Outside of that, you have levels of uncertainty you don't want to be playing with.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
When we do anything for God's glory and honour, we glorify and honour ourselves. I don't know anyone who actually DOES do anything to glory and honour God, so we're selfless!
Can one be quietly, discreetly, consistently kind for the wrong motives? Motive is as motive does. What calls will God make?
Nowt unnatural about doing (good,bad)x(badly,goodly). God certainly needed to intervene. So He did. The vast majority of good people know nowt about Christ. How do they need Him? Would they be gooder if they did?
Who has rejected Christ? How?
So God is arbitrary in who He allows to meet US-all-right-Jack in heaven? What's the good news that people need to hear? This? "...the only sure path to partaking of the divine nature begins with new birth". What does that mean?
[ 25. June 2016, 10:24: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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fausto
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# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Who has rejected Christ? How?
He answered that question pretty directly himself, and it didn't have anything to do with acknowledging him personally by name.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21
"Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." Matthew 25:45
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Aye fausto, but at least one denizen here believes that the least of Jesus' brothers only refers to Christians.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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