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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Live together, never marry?
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Ooops, no, I kinda forget about the straight folks when thinking about the acronym thing because they are the default and do not need to be represented in the same way.
Most of humanity is straightish,* but those acronyms cover the rest in the manner I wrote.
And straightish because I think many people might be mostly straight, but not be aware of/acknowledge anything other leanings.
*Hypotheses vary, but IMO, this most accurately represents.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Is the ability to think outside of one's own 'box" thought to be lacking in the straightish just because they are straightish?
Most of us are in the minority over something and most of us will have experienced some form of prejudice about us over that minority membership. Those experiences at least give us some sort of a clue about what it feels like to be on the receiving end of any prejudice. But that doesn't give us the right to presume that any member of a majority must be prejudiced, ignorant, or unfeeling simply because some are.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Some say the difference is due to the demographics
Of, bloody, course it is. Societal attitudes will also have had a major effect.
From across the pond, what surprises me is that American Christians should even want more people to get married in the face of the country's high divorce rate. Something needs to be done about the socio-cultural appeal of divorce before more people are encouraged to enter the institution of marriage.
Of course, my assumption here is that marriage followed by divorce and probably another marriage is more theologically problematic than cohabitation arrangements, especially serial ones. But other Christians might disagree.
IMO British church leaders and attenders are increasingly circumspect about this issue. Their own family members routinely cohabit, because that's just what happens in our culture. The evangelical churches hope that couples who enter the church will get married eventually, but even bringing it up drives some people away, and few British churches can afford for that to happen, especially if they spend a lot of effort on evangelism in the first place.
[ 06. July 2016, 13:49: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Is the ability to think outside of one's own 'box" thought to be lacking in the straightish just because they are straightish?
No, of course not. It is simply that many people do not bother to try.
quote:
Most of us are in the minority over something and most of us will have experienced some form of prejudice about us over that minority membership. Those experiences at least give us some sort of a clue about what it feels like to be on the receiving end of any prejudice.
You are a far wiser person than I, but this statement is problematic. There are two main problems that come to mind. One: No matter how many issues a person might face, it is human nature to still lack insight into issues others might face. (See racism in feminism, misogyny amongst gays, etc.) These are major issues with major obstacles and people facing them fail to see, understand or care for obstacles others face. Not everyone mind, but it isn't a rare thing.
Two: Everyone is different from one group or another that they might encounter. But being the only pensioner James Bond looky-like in Norfolk is not the same type of minority as others. You can take off the tuxedo and rumple your hair and drink a Stella and blend. (Yes, you'll still have the will of iron, the reflexes of a cat and the deadly skills of a ninja; but no one sees that unless you show them.)
quote:
But that doesn't give us the right to presume that any member of a majority must be prejudiced, ignorant, or unfeeling simply because some are.
This is true and it does no cause any good to assume those outside of it are blind.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
From across the pond, what surprises me is that American Christians should even want more people to get married in the face of the country's high divorce rate.
Cognitive dissonance for starters. Though this is hardly a unique trait.
quote:
Something needs to be done about the socio-cultural appeal of divorce before more people are encouraged to enter the institution of marriage.
ISTM, it is not the appeal of divorce, but a lessening of the taboo against it.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Something needs to be done about the socio-cultural appeal of divorce before more people are encouraged to enter the institution of marriage.
ISTM, it is not the appeal of divorce, but a lessening of the taboo against it.
This. Divorce doesn't need any socio-cultural appeal. The only appeal it needs is the fact that it's the exit from a hellish situation.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Something needs to be done about the socio-cultural appeal of divorce before more people are encouraged to enter the institution of marriage.
ISTM, it is not the appeal of divorce, but a lessening of the taboo against it.
This. Divorce doesn't need any socio-cultural appeal. The only appeal it needs is the fact that it's the exit from a hellish situation.
Not just Hellish conditions. Many marriages are ended because they were not what was envisioned, have become boring or not exciting enough, etc.
The only thing divorce needs is to be an acceptable option.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
It seems society has decided on a cost-benefit analysis that the cost to you of blurry-line relationships (lack of clarity of expectations, personal longing for a clear term and role) is offset by the benefit of fewer hierarchical, patriarchally-derived, oppressive bright-line relationships.
Do you really think most people who decide to live together WBOC really think in such terms?
You are confusing "couples*" (which I did not say) with "society" (which I did). Of course I do not think the majority of couples* think in those terms. That's why I didn't say it.
I did say "society has decided", using the analogy of individual decision-making in describing this social change. If you like, you can say "society has advanced" if you're fur it or "society has decayed" if you're agin it, but I tried to find a more neutral term for the change.
quote:
But the syllable soup you introduced is not even on the horizon of their thought. (Nor need it be.)
I did what? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
*Couples being the majority, but there could be three or more consenting adults. I'm using shorthand because I'm posting comments on a website, not writing a policy paper.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
American culture places a distinctively high value on marriage. Several European countries have quite high divorce rates too but none of them, AFAIK, make quite such a big deal out of marriage. Yes, the modern British wedding is expensive, but it's also optional. You don't really have to bother, so there's not much point doing it unless you're going to splash out and have a big do.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Divorce doesn't need any socio-cultural appeal. The only appeal it needs is the fact that it's the exit from a hellish situation.
If (over) half of all marriages in a culture are 'hellish', then it's a certainty that far fewer of its inhabitants should be getting married. It makes no sense to utter marriage vows in such conditions.
Actually, I was interested to read what you said previously about the Orthodox wedding service having no vows. This is something that the Western world in general ought to consider adopting. It's a more realistic approach to the modern marriage, whether secular or religious.
Regarding religious ceremonies, it no longer makes sense to co-opt God into the pretence that our marriages are going to last forever when we and our wedding guests all believe that divorce is acceptable.
[ 06. July 2016, 15:13: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not just Hellish conditions. Many marriages are ended because they were not what was envisioned, have become boring or not exciting enough, etc.
The only thing divorce needs is to be an acceptable option.
Point taken.
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
It seems society has decided on a cost-benefit analysis that the cost to you of blurry-line relationships (lack of clarity of expectations, personal longing for a clear term and role) is offset by the benefit of fewer hierarchical, patriarchally-derived, oppressive bright-line relationships.
Do you really think most people who decide to live together WBOC really think in such terms?
You are confusing "couples*" (which I did not say) with "society" (which I did). Of course I do not think the majority of couples* think in those terms. That's why I didn't say it.
Who are these people to whom you give the sobriquet "society"? Do you think even a tithe of our society thinks in such terms? "Oppressive bright-line relationships"? Really?
quote:
I did say "society has decided", using the analogy of individual decision-making in describing this social change.
Societal change may have resulted in an outcome that could be described in such terms. Perhaps. But society decided no such thing. The analogy is beyond broken here.
quote:
quote:
But the syllable soup you introduced is not even on the horizon of their thought. (Nor need it be.)
I did what?
You created a long string of letters, in the form of words, to describe an outcome which nobody but nobody who brought about that outcome ever before strung together or probably even thought about in whole or in part.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If (over) half of all marriages in a culture are 'hellish', then it's a certainty that far fewer of its inhabitants should be getting married. It makes no sense to utter marriage vows in such conditions.
That much-bandied-about statistic is outdated.
As for "Hellish" I was referring to my own first marriage. lilBuddha has given other reasons for marriages to end.
quote:
Actually, I was interested to read what you said previously about the Orthodox wedding service having no vows. This is something that the Western world in general ought to consider adopting. It's a more realistic approach to the modern marriage, whether secular or religious.
Do you think it makes Orthodox marriages less binding?
quote:
Regarding religious ceremonies, it no longer makes sense to co-opt God into the pretence that our marriages are going to last forever when we and our wedding guests all believe that divorce is acceptable.
I don't see it that way. Knowing there's an "out" (as we all do) doesn't mean you sincerely want God to bless this relationship and hope to shout you never have to use the "out".
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
@ lilBuddha
I did enjoy the James Bond allusions. The photo dates back to when I joined the Ship. These days it's really much more Uncle Albert from "Only Fools and Horses"! I really must update that photo.
You are quite right of course that blind spots about other minorities are not necessarily eliminated by one's own minority experience. But they may be. I'm at an age where repeating myself becomes a danger, but I do believe in Solzhenitsyn's aphorism. "To taste the sea requires one gulp". What might be more accurate would be to say that every experience of oppressive prejudice, for whatever reason, provides those who experience it with the opportunity to relate to the oppression of others. Some get that, can take the opportunity. Others miss it. Not everyone joins up the dots.
[ 06. July 2016, 15:45: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
mousethief
I'm not sure that a 'hope' is good enough if we're talking about vows in front of God. It might be better not to include vows at all and just ask God to help us with out 'intentions' or our 'desires' to stay together.
I don't know if Orthodox couples see their marriages as less binding, or if they're more likely to divorce than other Christians. I imagine that an Orthodox marriage is as binding as any other depending on the cultural context. What appeals to me is simply the honesty; no vows that can be broken - especially in a denomination that has no clear theology to deal with the implications for a religious re-marriage, etc.
[ 06. July 2016, 15:49: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Who are these people to whom you give the sobriquet "society"?
We can start here, if you like. Skip down to the part about contemporary usage.
quote:
Do you think even a tithe of our society thinks in such terms?
No, I don't think individuals think in those terms.
quote:
"Oppressive bright-line relationships"? Really?
I am not sure what your problem is with this. I am in one of those bright-line relationships, in a legally and civilly recognized marriage. I entered this particular form of relationship (in part) because I believed that the bright lines of defined roles would benefit me more than blurry lines of other forms. Obviously other people assess their own situations differently.
quote:
The analogy is beyond broken here.
You don't like my analogy? Okay.
quote:
But the syllable soup you introduced is not even on the horizon of their thought. (Nor need it be.)
I did what? quote:
You created a long string of letters, in the form of words, to describe an outcome which nobody but nobody who brought about that outcome ever before strung together or probably even thought about in whole or in part.
I take it you didn't like my post. I'm okay with that.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
This is rather insulting and trivializes both the Ship in general and Purgatory in particular. The point is not like or dislike, but agree or disagree. Discussing ideas, not racking up little blue "thumbs up" emojis.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
the Orthodox wedding service having no vows. This is something that the Western world in general ought to consider adopting. It's a more realistic approach to the modern marriage, whether secular or religious.
ISTM, this would make no difference. If one considers divorce "bad", the best strategy to avoid it is to have a realistic understanding of what marriage entails.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ lilBuddha
I did enjoy the James Bond allusions. The photo dates back to when I joined the Ship. These days it's really much more Uncle Albert from "Only Fools and Horses"! I really must update that photo.
Can you keep both? As much as I would like to see an updated pic, I love the current one.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
the Orthodox wedding service having no vows. This is something that the Western world in general ought to consider adopting. It's a more realistic approach to the modern marriage, whether secular or religious.
ISTM, this would make no difference. If one considers divorce "bad", the best strategy to avoid it is to have a realistic understanding of what marriage entails.
That would be great, of course.
My point is that since we all agree that divorce is acceptable in various circumstances, it makes little sense to have marriage vows where we pretend that marriage lasts for life.
What I wasn't saying was that changing the marriage liturgies would make marriages more likely to last. Indeed, it's more a case of recognising current realities.
However, I recognise that most people want to believe in 'true love for ever', and that this romantic ideal is probably even more important in a secular age than in a religious one. We all want to live 'happily ever after' with our sweetheart, even if our individualistic culture and our long lives make this very hard to achieve with one other person.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
the Orthodox wedding service having no vows. This is something that the Western world in general ought to consider adopting. It's a more realistic approach to the modern marriage, whether secular or religious.
ISTM, this would make no difference. If one considers divorce "bad", the best strategy to avoid it is to have a realistic understanding of what marriage entails.
And to provide support at a horizontal level to young married couples. Marriage can be hard, especially in the early bits, but some realistic expectations and realistic, non-judgmental help from friends and family can help people get through rough patches, unless something is more seriously wrong in the relationship (abusive spouse, substance abuse, mental disorder for example).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
We all want to live 'happily ever after' with our sweetheart, even if our individualistic culture and our long lives make this very hard to achieve with one other person.
ISTM, individualism is a substitution for selfish.
Some of the longest lasting marriages I know of are made up of people who are very individualistic.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
mousethief
I've often thought there should be more marriage preparation guidance available - but who would provide it?
In the British case the state would have no money for it and no cultural mandate.
The faith groups don't have much money either - unless you're talking about the kinds of groups whose beliefs about marriage aren't terribly fashionable. And again, I don't think British couples would feel comfortable with religious groups.
Families can and do help, but what made the marriage of Great Aunt Maude successful may not be entirely relevant or possible for a much younger couple facing different challenges. Expectations of marriage have changed. And many families by now have experienced divorce or unmarried parenthood in multiple generations, so there's no guarantee that a given family would be able to provide much advice.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
All true. O for a billion dollars or a magic wand.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
mousethief
I've often thought there should be more marriage preparation guidance available - but who would provide it?
In the British case the state would have no money for it and no cultural mandate.
The faith groups don't have much money either - unless you're talking about the kinds of groups whose beliefs about marriage aren't terribly fashionable. And again, I don't think British couples would feel comfortable with religious groups.
Families can and do help, but what made the marriage of Great Aunt Maude successful may not be entirely relevant or possible for a much younger couple facing different challenges. Expectations of marriage have changed. And many families by now have experienced divorce or unmarried parenthood in multiple generations, so there's no guarantee that a given family would be able to provide much advice.
PCUSA requires premarital counseling. Usually it's done by the pastor, but I think having it done by a licensed marriage therapist is more helpful. At my last position, I was able to arrange to have a trusted therapist provide 6 sessions for $300 (about 1/2 the usual cost). I made that part of the "package" that was presented to couples as what you do if you want to get married at our church-- not an optional extra, it's part of the deal. Many would gasp at the price and tell me they "couldn't afford it." I let them know that I had funds available to subsidize the cost-- so they could pay for the counseling the exact same amount that they were spending on flowers (which after all will be thrown out the next day). In 15 years at that church, I only had one couple that was spending less than $300 on flowers. I gladly covered their costs.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
PCUSA requires premarital counseling. Usually it's done by the pastor, but I think having it done by a licensed marriage therapist is more helpful.
28 years later, we still refer back to that counseling and what we learned about ourselves, each other, communication, families and marriage. There were definitely bumps we hit that might have been bigger bumps if we hadn't been able to say "this is exactly what we talked about in premarital counseling," and then been able to draw on what we had said about it.
Yes, we did Myers-Briggs as part of it, but that too was helpful, particularly in thinking through how to communicate with each other—or identifying areas where communication might be more challenging for us.
And I love the plan you came up with.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
mousethief
I've often thought there should be more marriage preparation guidance available - but who would provide it?
In the British case the state would have no money for it and no cultural mandate.
The faith groups don't have much money either - unless you're talking about the kinds of groups whose beliefs about marriage aren't terribly fashionable. And again, I don't think British couples would feel comfortable with religious groups.
Families can and do help, but what made the marriage of Great Aunt Maude successful may not be entirely relevant or possible for a much younger couple facing different challenges. Expectations of marriage have changed. And many families by now have experienced divorce or unmarried parenthood in multiple generations, so there's no guarantee that a given family would be able to provide much advice.
Nowadays they mandate mediation if you want to divorce, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility it could be made a condition of a marriage license.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Nowadays they mandate mediation if you want to divorce, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility it could be made a condition of a marriage license.
My ex had me go through that -- not because he cared about the marriage, but because he wanted to delay the divorce to make my life more difficult. It was the biggest waste of time and lost pay. Our pre-marriage "counseling" with a clergyman was equally worthless.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Marriage preparation courses are not at all about counselling. At least the best aren't. The aim is education.
One of the success markers of a good marriage preparation course is that a few couples actually postpone or cancel their marriages, because of what they discover.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Who would sponsor "living together preparation"? Can't see too many churches signing on.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Echoing what Nick Tamen said, Josephine and I got an immeasurable amount of good from our counseling, although it could have been better, since it was mostly aimed at 18 year old virgins and not semi-old farts creating a blended family. Part of the counseling really has to be focused on the stage of life the couple find themselves in at the time of the marriage.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Nowadays they mandate mediation if you want to divorce, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility it could be made a condition of a marriage license.
I can't see compulsory marriage preparation ever being acceptable in the UK.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Nowadays they mandate mediation if you want to divorce, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility it could be made a condition of a marriage license.
I can't see compulsory marriage preparation ever being acceptable in the UK.
While I would agree with you that a state-required marriage preparation wouldn't get much popular support at first, the (Canadian) RCs have mandated marriage prep here for over 30 years-- exceptions (usually of very mature or widowed candidates) are normally given at the bishop level. Friends of mine who have been through it speak highly of the process.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I'm not saying that it shouldn't or doesn't work in Canada, though.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My experience of NHS ante-natal classes makes me doubt the efficacy of any form of government marriage preparation class.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
My experience of NHS ante-natal classes makes me doubt the efficacy of any form of government marriage preparation class.
[Tangent] Well yes. I think I was nearly banned after asking a question in the Q & A part of the course. My question was very simple - they kept going on about "discomfort" so my question was "By discomfort do you mean pain?"
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
My experience of NHS ante-natal classes makes me doubt the efficacy of any form of government marriage preparation class.
[Tangent] Well yes. I think I was nearly banned after asking a question in the Q & A part of the course. My question was very simple - they kept going on about "discomfort" so my question was "By discomfort do you mean pain?"
I used to get asked that when I worked with married couples, and I usually said that one could expect quite a lot of discomfort, but then as one got older, one got numb to it.
<joke smiley>
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
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Posted
If prenatal (antenatal) classes are poor where you are, then they are taught badly. Same as premarital. There's a local organization, ecumenical (many church denominations have signed on and support it) which offers premarital courses. Well thought out and uniformly excellent.
There is also a "divorce care" program which is church sponsored, and seems to rotate among various churches. I have the understanding that because it is lay led, that it wanes when people leading have moved along.
As for mandatory mediation in divorce, the family courts here will order a couple to attend divorce education classes with risk of contempt if they don't when there are children involved. The educate about the loyalty conflicts children face when parents are splitting up, and the pull in both parents' direction, alienation issues etc. They order commonlaw couples as well.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
While I would agree with you that a state-required marriage preparation wouldn't get much popular support at first, the (Canadian) RCs have mandated marriage prep here for over 30 years-- exceptions (usually of very mature or widowed candidates) are normally given at the bishop level. Friends of mine who have been through it speak highly of the process.
I read this more carefully and realised that you were talking about Canadian RCs specifically. (For some reason, I thought you were talking about Canadians in general!)
Naturally, members of a religious group are likely to be more willing to take up their church's offer of such counselling, although in communities where the religious allegiance is far more cultural than spiritual I suspect there would be more resistance.
It would be interesting to know how much variation there is around the world regarding marriage prep in the RCC. Do couples anywhere in Latin America or in Africa, say, have to go through this process? I wonder if it's even commonplace in the RC countries of Europe.
Here in the UK we often hear about RC priests interviewing religiously mixed couples about their intentions, but as for marriage prep for RCs in general, I don't know how popular that is, nor how many British couples going through any religious ceremony receive counselling before their wedding. It would be interesting to know.
[ 08. July 2016, 19:06: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Naturally, members of a religious group are likely to be more willing to take up their church's offer of such counselling, although in communities where the religious allegiance is far more cultural than spiritual I suspect there would be more resistance.
It's not a matter of being willing to take up the offer, at least not in my denomination or, I think, the RCC. (I think as in Canada, all American Catholic dioceses require premarital counseling of some kind.) For us, it's a condition of the minister presiding at the wedding. No premarital counseling, and no comfort level on the part of the minister that the couple are prepared, then no church wedding and no participation by the minister (if the wedding is somewhere other than the church).
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Certainly for Scotland RC marriages will not take place unless the couple have previously attended a wedding preparation course.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It certainly makes sense for the RCC to make marriage prep mandatory, since it's a relatively strict denomination with regards to marriage and remarriage.
For the CofE the challenge is that many of the couples who request a church wedding will have very little connection to the church, so they may be fearful of attending a meeting and being given an unfriendly religious spiel that doesn't mean much to them. And of course, most couples are already living together and might not think the church can teach them anything they don't know about being in a relationship.
Googling suggests that there are ambivalent feelings about marriage prep in this country, both from the churches and from couples, but that many couples do find it valuable to make time to reflect on their relationship and expectations (as the above link shows).
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
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Posted
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...
quote:
If prenatal (antenatal) classes are poor where you are, then they are taught badly.
This was 22 years ago, but yes, under-resourced and badly taught. E.g. the teacher had a plastic pelvis and plastic baby doll from different sets. The "baby" was too big to go through the pelvis and the teacher's attempts to force it through resulted in its head coming off...
There was a childbirth film from the sixties in which the labouring woman managed to give birth without her mascara running, and without her (admittedly heavily laquered) beehive hairdo becoming dishevelled. My midwife said that it was a problem that that film was being shown because it gave a completely unrealistic impression of childbirth.
And much more; I could go on, but this is a tangent.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...
quote:
If prenatal (antenatal) classes are poor where you are, then they are taught badly.
This was 22 years ago, but yes, under-resourced and badly taught. E.g. the teacher had a plastic pelvis and plastic baby doll from different sets. The "baby" was too big to go through the pelvis and the teacher's attempts to force it through resulted in its head coming off... .
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) Just what you want when you're feeling anxious and nervous! Although perhaps the hilarity of what sounds like a Monty Python sketch would relieve the tension...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Where my step-daughter lives there are no NHS pre-natal classes. Expectant mothers are given a list of NCT classes and told to contact them. The only pre-natal stuff available from the NHS is all medical, other than a briefing that you should take into hospital sufficient nappies for your newborn, otherwise you'll be charged for them (40p each in 2007).
Our experience of NCT was entirely negative: it was run by a coven of pain-is-all-in-the-mind, and in any case labour isn't 'real' of you don't experience pain preachers: when they discovered our twins were going to arrive by C section they were spectacularly nasty, even though there were very good medical reasons for the C section. Needless to say we gave them a wide berth after that.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where my step-daughter lives there are no NHS pre-natal classes. Expectant mothers are given a list of NCT classes and told to contact them. The only pre-natal stuff available from the NHS is all medical, other than a briefing that you should take into hospital sufficient nappies for your newborn, otherwise you'll be charged for them (40p each in 2007).
Our experience of NCT was entirely negative: it was run by a coven of pain-is-all-in-the-mind, and in any case labour isn't 'real' of you don't experience pain preachers: when they discovered our twins were going to arrive by C section they were spectacularly nasty, even though there were very good medical reasons for the C section. Needless to say we gave them a wide berth after that.
IME NCT were middle class earth mothers drinking raspberry leaf tea. Since we lived on a council estate they pointedly ignored us
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
We were required to attend antenatal classes before the birth of our eldest. We found them completely worthless, because they didn't teach us anything we didn't already know. (We both read. Compulsively.)
As far as marriage prep goes, we didn't do a course, but we did get hold of a marriage prep book produced by Relate (the Marriage Guidance Council as was) and worked through it, which was useful.
Neither of us would have been comfortable being invited to do any of that in front of one or more third parties.
We did go to a "young families" course at church early in our marriage, which was one of the most excruciating things we've ever done together. Four or five couples, watch 15 minutes of video, then sit round in a circle discussing our feelings. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Marriage preparation courses are not at all about counselling. At least the best aren't. The aim is education.
One of the success markers of a good marriage preparation course is that a few couples actually postpone or cancel their marriages, because of what they discover.
When I trained to be a marriage & family therapist, one of my profs said he had never had a couple postpone or cancel their marriage, even when he was quite sure they were headed down the wrong path. It just doesn't happen-- at that point, there's just too much stardust in their eyes.
He found it more useful to spend a session getting to know each other and then get them to promise to come in for more extended counseling 6 months after the wedding. He found that 6 months down the road this couple that only a few months before their only argument had been "no, YOU'RE the cutest!" "No, YOU are!" --now suddenly had all sorts of things to talk about and they were able to get down to serious business.
[ 14. July 2016, 02:41: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
As far as marriage prep goes, we didn't do a course, but we did get hold of a marriage prep book produced by Relate (the Marriage Guidance Council as was) and worked through it, which was useful.
Neither of us would have been comfortable being invited to do any of that in front of one or more third parties.
FTR, our marriage prep course was:
1) Everyone watches a short video together.
2) Each couple sits privately and discusses as a couple what we thought of the video.
...times 6 weeks.
There was also
3) Each couple meets with the pastor and discusses any issues that come up.
but, for the most part, it was very private, and couldn't really be described as "in front of" anyone.
[ 14. July 2016, 06:04: Message edited by: St Deird ]
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Macarius and I once (and once only) allowed ourselves to be inveigled into being a 'show' married couple at a marriage preparation class - I think there were 3 or 4 couples being prepared.
The whole thing was profoundly depressing, all about marriage being hard work*, how disagreements were bound to come, etc etc. After a while, I couldn't bear it any longer and burst out that I enjoyed being married, it was great.
I was thanked by several people who said they were beginning to wonder why anyone bothered at all.
M.
*despite hearing this innumerable times over the years, I have never really understood what it means.
[ 14. July 2016, 06:36: Message edited by: M. ]
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
3) Each couple meets with the pastor and discusses any issues that come up.
but, for the most part, it was very private, and couldn't really be described as "in front of" anyone.
Is the pastor not a person? I rather thought that they usually were.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
3) Each couple meets with the pastor and discusses any issues that come up.
but, for the most part, it was very private, and couldn't really be described as "in front of" anyone.
Is the pastor not a person? I rather thought that they usually were.
Hence "for the most part".
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
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