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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A revival of Civil Defence?
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
As I understand it, after WW2 there used to be trained 'civil defence' volunteers, who knew what to do and were able to tackle any event before the 'professionals' arrived.
Is it time for every town to have its own 'civil defence' volunteers again, made up of members from all sectors of the community - trained to look out for terrorists, ready to tackle them if necessary, and able to confidently take charge of the situation if anything happens?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Is it time for every town to have its own 'civil defence' volunteers again, made up of members from all sectors of the community - trained to look out for terrorists, ready to tackle them if necessary,
I think we are better off without part-time Walter Mitty types arresting random foreign looking people based on some assumed terrorist threat.
Fighting a well identified enemy during mass warfare, is different from tackling terrorism (which by it's nature is very rare).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
In any event the civil defence forces never had any combat role as such. They simply (!) helped sustain the functioning of civil society in the emergency of wartime. In WW2 they oversaw air raid precautions, formed the auxiliary fire service, were involved in fire watching and assisted with managing the aftermath of air raids, including dealing with casualties. In the Cold War context their role was similar: to be a means of warning and informing the populace in advance of any proposed attack, and to endeavour to deal with the consequences, and to help try and sustain/re-establish civil society after an attack had taken place.
Notwithstanding the winding up of the organisation in 1968, I know there was some kind of skeleton continuance of it into the '90s. I know someone who had a special phone installed in their house in order that they could be instructed to alert their isolated southern counties village in the event that a nuclear attack was deemed imminent. They had for the purpose an old-style football rattle which they were to sound as they walked through the village!
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
Counter terrorism activity is a job for armed professionals. If you are going to train volunteers up to the level where, say, they could have handled the Rouen incident, then frankly you might as well recruit them in to the police and have done with it.
Civil Defence, IIRC, was largely the preserve of air raid wardens and fire defence personnel. It was the kind of thing that could have been done by a civilian with some basic training. It didn't include the use of deadly force in a complicated and dangerous situation with civilians present.
And logistically, it would be an utter mare. There you are in your civilian job, pretending to be interested in accounts whilst composing a post on the Ship about the wearing of Maniples and the balloon goes up. So what happens next? I'm guessing if ISIS hit anywhere in the UK they'll go for London. So you unlock your desk drawer and pull out your automatic pistol and nip to your locker for your uniform, flack jacket and Automatic Rifle. The text on your phone tells you that the bad guys are holed up in Finsbury Park and you work in the City, so you need to get the Tube - it will be a tad expensive to issue every CDV with their own car.
A lot easier to get CO19 on the case, and if things in the UK start getting really nasty to train and recruit a lot more CO19 officers and have rapid response teams on 24 hour emergency standby. If things do get really nasty I have no qualms about casualties; but I would much prefer them to come from the bad guys rather than some ill trained volunteer taking a couple of rounds, or inadvertently shooting a civilian. There are some jobs which remain the province of highly trained professionals. This is one of them.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) While still laughing about the rattle……
The level and quality of training is certainly important - as has been suggested it wouldn't be clever to let ill-trained unstable people loose - but to have people on the ground in every town (or suburb of London), a little like 'first responder' volunteers in the NHS, would surely be better than the current situation in which there is likely to be the mass panic the terrorists aim for.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
While still laughing about the rattle……
The level and quality of training is certainly important - as has been suggested it wouldn't be clever to let ill-trained unstable people loose - but to have people on the ground in every town (or suburb of London), a little like 'first responder' volunteers in the NHS, would surely be better than the current situation in which there is likely to be the mass panic the terrorists aim for.
I'm sure the PTB have plans to reduce panic and I'll bet that social media is on the list.
Personally, I would close it down. All of it. T'interweb is a rumour mill in the best of times and in a time of real crisis I believe it would be way too much trouble so radio, controlled by the government would be the primary channel for communications.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
I think the idea has some merit. Not by giving your average Joe a power trip with 'hat and stripes' status, more a form of specialised training to volunteers like Reserve Firemen without the uniform. Take the recent Nice attack, given hindsight someone trained in the use of a Stinger could well have saved lives.
We should take example from those passengers aboard the fourth 9/11 plane who managed to overpower the hijackers and save many lives.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Jay-Emm
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# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Counter terrorism activity is a job for armed professionals...
Definitely (at least in the level of actively moving to tackle, and in the heroic bystander situation, hindsights wonderful).
There possibly is some room for training to sub the traffic cops, evacuation, first aid. Though need to make sure they are an augmentation not a permanent substitute. That would just require a Hi-vis jacket and staying where you are (and while it would still be bad if the terrorists got the tabard, at least it's better than the gun).
Though again when things are nicely ordered, and your in your place, is when things are less likely to happen.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
...given hindsight someone trained in the use of a Stinger could well have saved lives...
I suspect a lot of hindsight. If nothing else the police were pretty much in the position that the volunteer would have to have got to.
Reading the article we have odd lorry behaviour for 30 minutes, then breaching the barrier, something with a motorcyclist, getting shot and pursued by police, then on for 2k.
So not massives of time to get the stinger out.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Take the recent Nice attack, given hindsight someone trained in the use of a Stinger could well have saved lives.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) yes, someone well trained at using a Stinger plus who has a wealth of experience at threat assessment.
Otherwise (and probably even then) the number of false positives would dwarf the police on civilian incidents in the US.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Take the recent Nice attack, given hindsight someone trained in the use of a Stinger could well have saved lives.
yes, someone well trained at using a Stinger plus who has a wealth of experience at threat assessment.
Otherwise (and probably even then) the number of false positives would dwarf the police on civilian incidents in the US.
Moreover, the kind of intelligence that would result in a Stinger to be in the right place, would have prevented the lorry getting near the crowd in the first place.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Take the recent Nice attack, given hindsight someone trained in the use of a Stinger could well have saved lives.
yes, someone well trained at using a Stinger plus who has a wealth of experience at threat assessment.
Otherwise (and probably even then) the number of false positives would dwarf the police on civilian incidents in the US.
Okay, obviously it's a job for Bond. James Bond.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I can't find the article now, but The Economist recently ran a piece on how Israel deals with terrorism; civil defence is part of the answer.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I can't find the article now, but The Economist recently ran a piece on how Israel deals with terrorism; civil defence is part of the answer.
Quite. That's the people who we need to take advice from.
The Israeli public went through a sustained period of suicde bombing that makes the current ordeal in Europe look small by comparison.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I can't find the article now, but The Economist recently ran a piece on how Israel deals with terrorism; civil defence is part of the answer.
Quite. That's the people who we need to take advice from.
The Israeli public went through a sustained period of suicde bombing that makes the current ordeal in Europe look small by comparison.
yes, and they also have a citizen army, with full conscription which means that you can assume a basic level of military/threat awareness and training in many/most people aged over 20. That and a siege mentality stemming from being surrounded by hostile states. Grafting "Civil Defence" onto that sort of society is a whole order of magnitude easier than it is onto the UK's.
That's not to say we can't learn from Israel of course, but it does probably mean that we can't just do whatever Israel does, the way Israel does it.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Raptor Eye: quote:
a little like 'first responder' volunteers in the NHS...
Which NHS would that be, then? As far as I'm aware all the first responders they send are highly trained paramedics, who don't get paid as much as doctors but are certainly not volunteers.
If you're referring to first aiders, the NHS is not responsible for either providing or training them. The first aid courses I've been on were run by the Red Cross and St John's Ambulance.
If you *are* talking about first aid, it's not a good comparison. The aim of first aid is to keep the injured person alive until you can get them to a doctor or a paramedic. This is analogous to ducking and running for cover if you hear gunshots. What you seem to be suggesting is having a bunch of wannabe James Bonds wandering around licensed to kill. As many other people have already pointed out, this is going to make us less safe. Heck, even the highly-trained officers of the Met can make mistakes, as the Menezes family could tell you.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
No. I think Raptor Eye has in mind something like this scheme run by the North West Ambulance Service: http://nwas-responders.info/
They are a valuable addition in our rural area, but I guess could be useful anywhere where there might be a wait for a fully trained paramedic.
[ 28. July 2016, 08:37: Message edited by: BroJames ]
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Oh, right. Never come across them before; you live and learn.
It still sounds like first aid to me; the aim is 'keep the person alive until the ambulance gets there', not 'set the bone/stitch up the wound/cure the life-threatening disease'. Some first aiders are trained in using a defibrillator.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Take the recent Nice attack, given hindsight someone trained in the use of a Stinger could well have saved lives.
yes, someone well trained at using a Stinger plus who has a wealth of experience at threat assessment.
Otherwise (and probably even then) the number of false positives would dwarf the police on civilian incidents in the US.
Moreover, the kind of intelligence that would result in a Stinger to be in the right place, would have prevented the lorry getting near the crowd in the first place.
It's the intelligence that is the problem. Most countries have perfectly good armed police forces. But if the first you know about it is when things are kicking off the terrorists have got a head start. If you know that something is about to kick off then you really want to send in CO19, if you are feeling magnanimous, or the SAS, if you are in a really bad mood, rather than some kind of latter day Captain Mainwaring.
The real problem appears to be that ISIS are recruiting from the criminal population. When the Islamists were recruiting unworldly kids from Mosques, it was bad but they did tend to be long on religious fervour and short on any salient skills for mayhem, hence the succession of botched jobs like the underpants bomber, the shoe bomber and the attack on Glasgow airport which was foiled by a mixture of spectacular incompetence and a baggage handler on a cigarette break. The new generation are prepared to kill and die for Allah and know a bloke who for a sufficient fee will sell you a second hand automatic weapon. So there's a kind of balance to be struck by making it clear that if anyone in the criminal fraternity sells someone a gun that gets used in a terrorists outrage they are going down for a very long time and that if someone is a bit concerned about the amount of time their nephew is spending reading the Koran and has been flashing around a shiny new pistol they are not going to discover that they have subsequently been found dead in a police cell if they pick up the phone and share their concerns with the authorities.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
We've got trained first responders who are volunteers, who have to buy all their own equipment, and who turn up following a 999 call and decide when to call the ambulance.
There are aspects of this which I am not entirely happy about.
We also have, which I did not know about until a friend went missing on the Isle of Wight, a local Search and Rescue group, also volunteers, also self funded, from what I can make out, with a lot of regular training and to be called out on the principle of the RNLI. Only on land. This is fairly widespread.
I had a colleague in Dover who was in the Civil Defence, in his twenties, in the late 1960s, who had first aid training among other stuff. He was able to tell me that the tunnels under the Castle were well supplied with tins of baked beans. He had, before I went to the school, had a day in which the whole primary school pretended to be dealing with a disaster, with bandages and so on!
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
I suppose this does rather make one think of Dad's Army, or self important people with a funny hat bossing people about.
But the fact is we already haver all sorts of reserve and volunteer forces and groups, such as Special Constables, the TA & RNR, St John's Ambulance, etc. It doesn't seem to be as barmy as some people seem to think it to me. A volunteer group, maybe more like Neighbourhood watch than armed with tasers, makes a lot of sense. We should all be vigilant and report things to the authorities. Training a group to be especially vigilant and know what they are looking for makes sense.
And besides, I have always fancied a uniform.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
A volunteer group, maybe more like Neighbourhood watch than armed with tasers, makes a lot of sense. We should all be vigilant and report things to the authorities. Training a group to be especially vigilant and know what they are looking for makes sense.
This - which is basically a call for people to "keep 'em peeled" (Niche Police 5 ref there...).
Until you get to training people to be especially vigilant and know what they're looking for.
As a bare minimum, I would want such people to be signatories of the Official Secrets Act, and if possible Developed Vetted by the Security Services. Otherwise you're spreading knowledge about what we know is possible, and how it works, to the ends of the earth.
It just gets very expensive very quickly, and we'd be better off putting the money into MI5, MI6, the police, the fire brigade and the armed forces. IMO obviously.
Best advice for the general public in the UK? Go back to the 70s, 80s and early 90s. Be vigilant. Report anything suspicious. Above all, to coin a phrase, keep calm and carry on.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Betjemaniac:
quote:
As a bare minimum, I would want such people to be signatories of the Official Secrets Act, and if possible Developed Vetted by the Security Services. Otherwise you're spreading knowledge about what we know is possible, and how it works, to the ends of the earth.
I agree with your general point, although when I had some small responsibility in law enforcement, it was only thought necessary for Counter Terrorist Clearance. I think the same would be probably the case for a hypothetical Civil Defence team.
You're dead right about the money being better spent on the Security Services and the Police, though.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
The US equivalent would probably the the state National Guards, who were formed to step in not only in case of riots or terrorism but also in the wake of natural disasters. Being divided among the states meant that there was always a ready supply of these trained, paid personnel to draw from on a moment's notice.
...Until the war in Iraq when Pres. Bush decided to call them up to serve in the troops overseas-- solely because they were cheaper to deploy than paying out combat pay to active-duty troops (and they had to find $$ to pay Cheney's Halleburton friends for their high-priced "security personnel"). This stripped the states of this valuable on-call local resource in, for example, emergencies like Hurricane Katrina, when these resources were so desperately needed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We certainly need more than what is being circulated in our diocese, which is a booklet about lessening the threat of extremist disruption/ attack in places of religion issued by the Met's Anti-Terrorism division. I won't say its useless, but has whoever took the decision to issue it to churches ever been in a church? Not if they can seriously issue things like this as being relevant quote:
Access control An efficient reception area is essential to controlling access, with side and rear entrances denied to all but authorised people. Keep access points to a minimum and make sure the boundary between public and private areas of your building is secure and clearly signed. Ensure there are appropriately trained and briefed staff to manage access control points or alternatively invest in good quality access control systems operated by magnetic swipe or contact proximity cards supported by PIN verification.
There's much more in this vein, including the need to get rid of rubbish bins around the church, which will go down well with the people tending family graves. And I can just see our DAC accepting that we need to cover our glass with blast-reducing film...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Given that terrorism is a relatively minor threat (though over-publicized) and has declined since the 1970s peak, and that motor vehicle related injuries and deaths are much more frequent, I'd say skip the civil defence and get volunteer traffic enforcement if you really want to get serious about something.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Given that terrorism is a relatively minor threat (though over-publicized) and has declined since the 1970s peak, and that motor vehicle related injuries and deaths are much more frequent, I'd say skip the civil defence and get volunteer traffic enforcement if you really want to get serious about something.
Yes. When I recently told a friend that we were going to Istanbul for part of our holiday, she said, "You're brave!" I replied by saying that, even there, we were much more likely to be run down by a bus than killed by terrorists.
Just 4 hours after we passed through the airport, 46 people were killed there in a terrorist attack, with many others injured. But dare I say that, although that was appalling and hugely tragic, one must also remember that thousands of other people were in the airport and not harmed. Or am I a horrible person for saying that?
[ 28. July 2016, 17:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Actually Civil Defense continues to be alive in the US, it is one of the first responders to natural disasters. It is a part of the Homeland Security Department
The one arm that still is very much operational in my part of the country is the Air Civil Defense. My son was once part of the unit where I live.
It gets called out for search and rescue operations. It actually trains at Fairchild AFB near Spokane.
Helped my son to learn discipline and leadership. Heck, they even taught him how to shave.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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