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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "I don't want a funeral or any kind of service"
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
This comes up when talking to people and when reading the obituaries. How bound are we to honour this request?
I have a personal connection to the issue as well, having had a relative 6 years ago assert this before death.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Do they mean "I don't want a church/Christian service of any kind" (thus leaving the door open for a secular commemoration of some kind); or "I don't want any kind of ritual, just dump the coffin in the grave and be done with it"?
In either case I'd do my best to accede to the request unless there were overwhelming reasons not to.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I have a friend who says this. In fact, she also seems a bit annoyed that her elderly father would like to have a funeral! Considering that he has far more friends and acquaintances than she does I think he's being perfectly reasonable.
But there's nothing stopping someone from having a quick cremation and then arranging a 'memorial event' at some later date.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
My godmother did the same-- possibly because, as her origins were in the Ottawa Valley where funerals are major events, she preferred a quiet life without fuss. While her children would have liked to have had a memorial service, they were insufficiently organized to hold one, and they did not ask anyone to help.
However, she left me her dining room table and, on the anniversary of my baptism when she made the promises for me, I have a few friends over for a dinner and think of her as I offer hospitality to them.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
In a way its a rather selfish request. Funerals are largely (mainly?) for the benefit of the living, to give them an opportunity to say goodbye and express appreciation for the life of someone they have loved.
If you don't want a religious service, there are humanist funeral celebrants who'll give you a dignified and completely religion-free send-off.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I definitely want a humanist funeral with celebrant, I don't trust the church not to own the funeral.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Funerals are cultural artifacts. Why should the living need them? I would almost prefer to have a memorial service before I die so that I can listen to some great U2 music with my friends.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You could exit at the end like this.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
In a way its a rather selfish request. Funerals are largely (mainly?) for the benefit of the living, to give them an opportunity to say goodbye and express appreciation for the life of someone they have loved.
I agree. The point of a memorial service (to cover funerals as well as gatherings without the body present) is to give a sense of closure for those who are still alive. I have no problem if a person does not want a religious ceremony if that offends their beliefs. But for a person to say they do not want "any kind of service" is selfish and, in a way, cruel to those who survive. The closure for those who survive serves an important emotional/psychological function.
Now if the deceased wants to control some aspects of the service, or institute a theme so that the deceased can be remembered as he/she wants, that is okay. Go ahead and leave instructions that the memorial service should be a drunken orgy if you want to be remembered as a party animal. If you want to be remembered as a simple soul, then instruct that the gathering is to be just people gathering to swap memories with no music or other trimmings. But to deny the survivors the comfort of any kind of a memorial service is just cruel.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Yes, finding out what they =exactly= mean is the way to go. The number of options for after a death is just about infinite. It is worth having other family on hand for this; someone may well say, "But what about me, Mildred? Don't you want to be buried beside me?"
Then, have them write it down. If the knowledge does not exist where it can be found by the survivors, it might as well never have been. (I assume that the bereaved survivors may not know to immediately consult you; if that's the plan then -you- write it down, unless you are immortal.)
If they really truly want to ensure that what they wants happens, it is possible to pre-plan one's funeral. Again, the sky's the limit. You can buy the coffin, organize the service, decree the hymns, all while you're above ground.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I definitely want a humanist funeral with celebrant, I don't trust the church not to own the funeral.
Isn't it more a matter of trusting the minister who performs the ceremony?
In my case, I'd like someone who knew and liked me, and who was willing to mention God during the service. Unless my family were to organise some very original DIY thing the kind of person most likely to oblige would be an ordained minister.
However, the truth is that no one really knows us completely, and most clergy probably don't even know most of their members all that well. You could argue that a 'Christian' funeral inevitably prioritises orthodox theology, to the extent that an unorthodox Christian might have a more honest, if less theologically aware, funeral at the hands of a humanist celebrant....
Humanist funerals are outside my sphere of cultural understanding, though.
[ 05. August 2016, 14:51: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
If the person has ideological/religious reasons for it, I suppose I'd try to follow their request unless there were overriding reasons against it (like a bunch of living mourners who would absolutely freak out psychologically). But if it's just modesty or shrinking from being the center of attention even after death, IMO suck it up and deal. You're dead, we love you, and what you won't know won't hurt you.
I've known too many people who just can't seem to get past the grieving without the help of some kind of service to mark off this phase of their life (and yes, they said so, months or years later). If they need it, I say give it to them.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
My father was one of those "no service," people and he left his body to Marshall University's medical school so we really had nothing to do but take in the obituary which he had written himself months earlier.
I really didn't feel that we had less closure than we did at my mother's traditional, open casket service and burial. I had the privilege of sitting at my father's bedside during his final days and last moments, while my mother had gone suddenly with a stroke. It was those lucid minutes together that meant the most to me. Mother's big funeral with people all around that I need to play hostess to was nerve wracking and I couldn't wait for it to be over.
My husband plays trumpet in the local veteran's honor guard and goes to several graveside services a week. He and his fellow old soldiers stand in uniform at gravesides in the 95 degree heat this summer and below zero in the winter. I just know one of them is going to fall in the open grave some day, but they all love giving those final military honors to their fellow vets. What I find unforgivable is the pastors who talk at the graveside for up to 45 minutes while everyone stands in misery. What on earth are they thinking?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
But for a person to say they do not want "any kind of service" is selfish and, in a way, cruel to those who survive. The closure for those who survive serves an important emotional/psychological function.
While I tend to agree with you, I wonder to what extent we have been psychologically conditioned by the fact that a Funeral or Memorial Service is normative? If we had never invented them, wouldn't we have learned to find "closure" in different ways?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
But for a person to say they do not want "any kind of service" is selfish and, in a way, cruel to those who survive. The closure for those who survive serves an important emotional/psychological function.
While I tend to agree with you, I wonder to what extent we have been psychologically conditioned by the fact that a Funeral or Memorial Service is normative? If we had never invented them, wouldn't we have learned to find "closure" in different ways?
Yes but we haven't, and it's cruel to expect our survivors to invent one. And if we had, they would probably have said, "Don't do the Hingblat for me" and we as survivors would be in the same position.
[ 05. August 2016, 16:06: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I'm not actually sure what the definition of a funeral is.
When my mother died, I was the only living relative, she had outlived all her old friends, and the last thing I wanted was to have to arrange a church service when there would only be me and a priest there, and sing hymns by myself in an otherwise empty church and so on.
I did ensure that a priest was in attendance on the day of the burial, so we had some prayers in the funeral parlour and he attended at the graveside to commit her body to the earth. I arranged for two Masses to be said at her old parish church. I knew I wouldn't be able to attend either of them but it gave me some peace of mind to think that they would be said in an old familiar place, and maybe there might even be some elderly resident in the congregation who would recognize her name.
From time to time I still feel guilty that she didn't have a proper funeral service beforehand, but I'm not sure what else I could have done and I know she'd understand why I did it this way.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It does seem cruel to actually forbid a service. I'm not interested in my own, but if they want to get hammered down at the old Bull and Bush, go for it. No, hang on, that's not a service, well, whatever.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
However, she left me her dining room table and, on the anniversary of my baptism when she made the promises for me, I have a few friends over for a dinner and think of her as I offer hospitality to them.
That really is lovely.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
In the situation we had 6 years ago, some of the people (they were relatives, a difficult species of people) were looking at an urn of ashes in the living room and some of them avoiding the room. Not knowing, and having arrived 2 days post-death, I just the idea that something was required, so got the Anglican order for funeral (whatever it's called) and printed out from the internet segments I thought no-one would fight over (don't need the pentacostals, anglicans and agnostics duking it out), and we took the ashes to the lake nearby and I 'led' a service of sorts as a lay person. Overruling the deceased's wishes. No-one family has ever talked about it negatively, nor really positively. Just okay-ish. A priest told me it was a Good Thing to have done. But priests are bred to say Nice Things about Such Things, aren't they? The ethics of overruling the dead never discussed.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Gah, just look at the worrying going on in this thread. Did I do enough or too much or against someone's wishes? There's something to be said for a strict, formal, universal service.
I remember the ship's Ken said that he told his priest that he wanted the traditional service for his church, no changes, nothing modern. (Or something like that, it makes me sad that he isn't here to correct me like he did so many times.) That sounds good to me. Whatever Lutheran ministers usually do if it doesn't take too long. I don't want my relatives to have nervous breakdowns because they think they have to stand up and say something. I've already decided on cremation because, my son, king of all worriers, would worry about worms or whether I was really dead or not if it was a burial.
Ariel, you did a fine job. I think I speak for all parents everywhere when I say, No worrying!
(I worry about the worrying.)
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
A friend died, the family put out word there would be no funeral, only a private burial, so don't come. My friend had friends all over the world who would have hopped a trans-ocean flight to be there, a few came in spite of being told not to.
I can understand wanting out of town people to stay away so the locals don't have to deal with logistics of getting info out to out of towners where to be what time, will there be enough parking, field phone calls asking updates on info or vaguely asking "can I help?" when these people are strangers to the family.
Grief is bad enough without having to help a bunch of strangers.
In a small town church community, everyone is local, everyone knows where the funeral home and cemetery are, people who say "I'm so sorry" to survivors are people the survivors know. And no one has to help funeral attenders find transportation and a place to get a meal or stay the night before traveling home.
Cultures change for a reason.
I will undoubtedly have no funeral because I have no family, and family are the people who arrange funerals because the family want one.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My father has said that he doesn't want a full service. No minister, no hymns. He wants 8 named people to gather at the funeral home with the coffin and each of us say something in turn. And that's it.
I have told him that I am deeply unimpressed, and might not attend. My main objection is that in the immediate aftermath of his death someone (and I've told him it won't be me, so presumably my mother) will have to tell various relatives that the funeral is for close family only, and that despite a relationship going back decades, regular phone calls, visits etc they are not close enough to be regarded as close family. I can only imagine the ripples of hurt which this will cause within the wider family. It will probably reduce the amount of family support available to my mother in the early days of widowhood.
If I did go, what would I say to the other seven people? I get on perfectly well with my brother but we are not geographically close and our contact over the last twenty years has been limited. I'm guessing he will lean towards weepily sentimental. I love my father dearly but will probably lean towards humorous anecdote. If it was a room full of people, there would at least be a buffer, a middle ground. As it is I imagine me feeling awkward when my brother spoke, and him feeling awkward when I spoke.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
And a few days later I end up doing a traditional funeral straight from the BCP.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It does seem cruel to actually forbid a service. I'm not interested in my own, but if they want to get hammered down at the old Bull and Bush, go for it. No, hang on, that's not a service, well, whatever.
What's the service like down at the Bull and Bush?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Re. OP I would say such a request is cruel and selfish.
Simply for the reason that we didn't choose to impact on the lives of those we knew who survived us, we just did.
So given that definition of logic how are we to deny those individuals the right to make some formal, and to them appropriate acknowledgment of our death?
It is entirely acceptable that someone, living in a taken-for-granted Christian based society, might make the request that they do not wish to be seen dead in a church. Pun intended.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
A previous bishop of mine used to lecture his clergy on the "correct" way to preach, celebrate etc. When laying down the law on how to take funerals, he made it quite clear that eulogies were nasty modern inventions that should not permitted. "When I die, if any of you give a eulogy at my funeral I will come back to haunt you." It was an effort, but I managed to stop myself saying, "No fear of that, my Lord".
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
As a lawyer involved in drafting Wills, I am sometimes asked to include a direction that the testator does not want a funeral ceremony. Leaving aside the fact that funeral directions are not legally binding (in England), I try to talk them out of it for the reasons that other shipmates have given and encourage them to discuss the matter with their family.
Of course, a funeral ceremony does not have to inolve a religious element. One testator left a sum of money to pay for a "joyous party" to be held in his memory. The family told me that this involved a large quantity of alcohol!
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I think that the funeral is for both the deceased and for the friends and family who remain.
Who knows whether the person who died is, as so many near death experiences describe, able to see the people gathered and hear the prayers being said?
There is hope of eternal life in a Christian service, unlike a 'humanist' funeral for a family member I attended, in which we were firmly instructed to commit him to memory. I still shudder.
I think that the flow of a service with set liturgy has the right pace, it celebrates and says goodbye, smiles and weeps, and helps to move people on rather than leaving them to cling on.
It is cruel to ask those who love you not to hold a funeral service, imv.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
However, she left me her dining room table and, on the anniversary of my baptism when she made the promises for me, I have a few friends over for a dinner and think of her as I offer hospitality to them.
That really is lovely.
And a good example of how creative thinking and good communication can help resolve this dilemma. "Closure" does not have to come thru a formal service-- perhaps the departed doesn't like the idea of lots of people dressed in formal clothes sitting around dourly intoning sad-sounding words in a church or funeral hall. So, perhaps the mourners could remember the departed thru service in a favorite cause-- whether it's clearing trails in memory of an avid hiker, or sorting library books for a reader, or painting inner-city schoolrooms for a retired teacher. And perhaps, after a day of service, the mourners might go out for a meal together.
"I don't want a funeral" should be the beginning of the conversation, not the end.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A friend of a friend had a wife who collected teapots. There were enough of them to fill a rented storage unit. When the lady died, there was a funeral. Too late, the widower realized what he should have done. He should've emptied out that storage unit, and given a teapot to every attendee at that funeral. Then everyone would have had a memento, and he himself would have painlessly cleared out the entire unit in one afternoon.
Yes, originality is highly to be desired.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
If I found funerals distasteful, I'd probably just say to the person likely to be in charge, "Do whatever you want. I won't be around anyway."
My great aunt once was going on and on about the teensy details and worrying about costs to my gran. My grandmother finally said tartly, "Enough! Stop worrying- the family'll plant you!"
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
However, she left me her dining room table and, on the anniversary of my baptism when she made the promises for me, I have a few friends over for a dinner and think of her as I offer hospitality to them.
That really is lovely.
And a good example of how creative thinking and good communication can help resolve this dilemma. "Closure" does not have to come thru a formal service-- perhaps the departed doesn't like the idea of lots of people dressed in formal clothes sitting around dourly intoning sad-sounding words in a church or funeral hall. So, perhaps the mourners could remember the departed thru service in a favorite cause-- whether it's clearing trails in memory of an avid hiker, or sorting library books for a reader, or painting inner-city schoolrooms for a retired teacher. And perhaps, after a day of service, the mourners might go out for a meal together.
"I don't want a funeral" should be the beginning of the conversation, not the end.
Who is the departed to tell the mourners how to find closure?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Who knows whether the person who died is, as so many near death experiences describe, able to see the people gathered and hear the prayers being said?
It is not something that can be easily studied in an ethical manner, so it is currently difficult to have a definitive answer. However, what is known doesn't strongly indicate this is a real phenomenon for people who truly die. So the decedents wishes are irrelevant compared to the survivors.
quote:
It is cruel to ask those who love you not to hold a funeral service, imv.
Those who remain are the ones who might wish closure so it is best their decision. IMO, guidance on how one wishes one's funeral to be conducted are only relevant in how they might help the attendees.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
In my understanding, originally the funeral was an opportunity to remind those left alive to think of their latter ends. So I have more than once had requests from die-hard Presbyterians that nothing personal be said at their funerals. To which we have acceded.
On the other hand I have sat with the dying and planned their services to the last detail. In one case so much so, that we seriously considered holding the service when the man could still come to it himself (alive). But we didn't as a) people would have found it weird, and b) what would we do when he did die?
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
In my understanding, originally the funeral was an opportunity to remind those left alive to think of their latter ends.
Interesting. Looking at the Orthodox funeral service, the purpose is clearly to sing them into the next life. This includes asking for forgiveness for their sins, but if the sins of the still-living are mentioned, it's so brief I don't recall, and I've sung a few.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This comes up when talking to people and when reading the obituaries. How bound are we to honour this request?
I have a personal connection to the issue as well, having had a relative 6 years ago assert this before death.
In my opinion, if that is what the person has stated that iswhat s/he wants, it would be disrespectful and/dor selfish of the living to do something different. If those still living feel a lack of 'closure' or feel some personal hurt, then that is their problem to deal with and not the dead person's, especially if, as I presume, they would have known the dead person well enough anyway to understand.
I certainly do not want there to be any funeral and my family and friends know this. There will be a few unavoidable expenses - fridge space somewhere and cost of (cheapest) coffin and cremation - but otherwise give money to the young.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IMO, guidance on how one wishes one's funeral to be conducted are only relevant in how they might help the attendees.
Not sure I agree. I want an Orthodox funeral, because I'm Orthodox, and that's how we dispatch our dead.
Which I guess contradicts what I've been saying on this thread about the wishes of the dead. I would certainly never say, "give me an Orthodox funeral but don't do anything else. No memorial service, no potluck where you kvetch about what a jerk I was, no gathering at the local watering hole to raise a pint in my honor."
I think the wishes of the dead of the "no less than" variety are somehow more reasonable than those of the "no more than" variety, especially if it's "no more than nothing." People seem to need to be able to grieve in company.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Most of the funerals I'm familiar with are of people who are very much a part of a loving church family, well known to the minister, and really are a joyful thanksgiving for a life.
Our minister specifies that if anyone apart from the family eulogist wants to speak, they should give notice of their wish and their tribute should be no longer than one quarto page.
A church service, if a non-member wants it as a formality, must be pretty grim.
I think I see my own funeral as in some ways my farewell to my friends, with Donne's 'Death be not proud' (even if Donne's theology wasn't mine exactly) and Henley's 'Margarita sororae'..
I wasn't able to go to that of a former atheist colleague, who wrote his own death notice on the lines of 'Just letting you know that I'm off...' Come to think of it, I don't know if he had a funeral.
Then there was a dear Scots friend, who dropped out of sight when attacked on many fronts by terminal cancer, not wanting folk to remember his ravaged body, and may have had a family funeral. So a few weeks later the minister got a bottle of Scotch and held a wake in the church lounge. His children paid for a memorial seat by the stream where I go for my bush walk, and in the summer I sit there for a while (not in winter when the seat is wet).
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Wonders will never cease! For about the first time ever, I agree with SusanDoris!
I think it is very disrespectful to go against the wishes of the deceased. There's nothing to stop anyone doing it of course, but how could you get 'closure' (whatever that really means) if you knew you were doing exactly what the deceased said they didn't want? Or, possibly worse, if you hid that fact from other people for your own self interest?
Seems very wrong to me.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm thinking of my nearest and dearest, who are the people I would most need/want to grieve for anyway. They get no respect from me in life, why should death be any different?
(Okay, okay, but you know what I mean...)
More seriously, though, I would tend to honor the wishes of the dead person unless and until they conflict with the needs of the living. The dead are presumably past caring, but the living are not. I'm a bit shy (yes, really) and would doubtless say "no funeral" or "hole in the wall service" if left to my own wishes, but I've seen the pain that causes many people--and so I've already told my son that he can do what he darn well likes, it's all okay with me.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
In my understanding, originally the funeral was an opportunity to remind those left alive to think of their latter ends. So I have more than once had requests from die-hard Presbyterians that nothing personal be said at their funerals.
FWIW, I'm very familiar with the Presbyterian preference for nothing personal—usually meaning absolutely no eulogy—at funerals or memorial services. But I've never heard that attributed to wanting people to think of their own deaths, nor have I experienced any Presbyterian funerals that went that route. I've always heard that the reason for the no eulogies approach is because the focus is supposed to be on the worship of God—to riff off of Marc Antony, we come to bury the deceased, not to praise him or her. We praise God. In the funeral context, that means praising God for the promise of the resurrection and giving thanks for the life of the one who has died.
A practice surviving over time while reasons for the practice have changed, maybe?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I certainly do not want there to be any funeral and my family and friends know this. There will be a few unavoidable expenses - fridge space somewhere and cost of (cheapest) coffin and cremation - but otherwise give money to the young.
In the interests of the OP, let's explore that further...
I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want a religious service. And the notion of not wasting a lot of money on a vessel to hold a decomposing body similarly has a practicality that fits.
To explore it more, though... is it the notion of a typical funeral service you dislike or something broader than that? Would you, for example, object to your friends or loved ones getting together for a simple meal to exchange stories? Or would there be a cause you care about they could contribute (either financially or thru volunteer labor) in your honor?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Most of the funerals I'm familiar with are of people who are very much a part of a loving church family, well known to the minister, and really are a joyful thanksgiving for a life.
Our minister specifies that if anyone apart from the family eulogist wants to speak, they should give notice of their wish and their tribute should be no longer than one quarto page.
A church service, if a non-member wants it as a formality, must be pretty grim.
I've done a lot of funeral services where the deceased is a non-church goer of unknown religious sentiment, but one or more family members is a faithful member of my congregation.
A funeral is imho no time to unpack the thorny issue of universalism vs exclusivism and the ultimate destiny of non-believers.
It is, however, as Nick T suggests, a time to come together and worship the living God. So that's what we do. We usually have a eulogy that simply talks about the person's life and what will be remembered. Then we worship. We pray together-- mostly for comfort for those who mourn.
[ 06. August 2016, 14:26: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
In my opinion, if that is what the person has stated that iswhat s/he wants, it would be disrespectful
Why? How? Especially from your philosophy, the person no longer exists at all. You cannot disrespect something that no longer exists. What you disrespect is the still living people who cared for the deceased when they were still alive.
Even from a Christian or Buddhist POV where death is not the end, the person has done what they have and put themselves into whatever state they are in. We are not changing that.
Now, if one belongs to a system of belief which states that their deity(s) need cajoling or placating to allow the dead person to proceed to the next stage, then I will not tell them they are wrong. For them, the funeral truly is, in part, for the deceased.
quote:
selfish of the living to do something different. If those still living feel a lack of 'closure' or feel some personal hurt, then that is their problem to deal with and not the dead person's,
That is precisely what a funeral is.
I have in mind a ceremony that would represent me. However, the only reason I would write it up would be if I felt those remaining would have no ideas themselves or to make it easier for them.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I want an Orthodox funeral, because I'm Orthodox, and that's how we dispatch our dead.
Your community is Orthodox, at least one of the communities you belong to, so this makes sense for them
I am struggling to see why, from a Christian POV, any service matters at all the the dead person. It can have no benefit, or lack any benefit, to the dead person.
That the living would feel disrespectful is understandable, so a service is to respect their feelings.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
My perspective on funerals runs in the direction of considering 3 parties. The deceased, the living and God. God doesn't need anything from us. The dead doesn't either. The living do. If you're atheist, you still have 2 of the 3.
I recall extremely well the funerals of loved ones. There's a sense I derive of something transcendent. Do atheists do transcendence? Things bigger than the self? I know they do yoga. Perhaps a yoga funeral.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
In my opinion, if that is what the person has stated that iswhat s/he wants, it would be disrespectful and/dor selfish of the living to do something different. If those still living feel a lack of 'closure' or feel some personal hurt, then that is their problem to deal with and not the dead person's, especially if, as I presume, they would have known the dead person well enough anyway to understand.
In my opinion, it is selfish of the person to decree that their survivors may not meet together to remember them. It's disrespectful to the needs of the living. It's spitting in their faces to say, "when I am gone, I am still going to forbid you from doing what you want. I am going to prevent you from using our society's most common form of seeking closure and insist you do it some other way. Fuck you."
[ 06. August 2016, 16:36: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In my opinion, it is selfish of the person to decree that their survivors may not meet together to remember them. It's disrespectful to the needs of the living. It's spitting in their faces to say, "when I am gone, I am still going to forbid you from doing what you want. I am going to prevent you from using our society's most common form of seeking closure and insist you do it some other way. Fuck you."
Supposing the deceased had been brought up in a particular religious tradition, suffered at the hands of it, absolutely hated it, but the rest of the family had not had that experience and still firmly believed in it. Suppose that relationships had been strained with some family members because of it.
Suppose also that the deceased had been quite adamant that s/he would not have a funeral from that tradition. And suppose that the family were equally adamant that the deceased had to have it because the person had clearly misinterpreted the tradition during their lifetime/been unreasonable/would go to Hell if they didn't get a proper funeral (i.e. in the family tradition). And that no secular alternative or anything but a funeral in the specified tradition would be acceptable.
Would you still think it selfish of the deceased not to want a funeral?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Would you still think it selfish of the deceased not to want a funeral?
It would be selfish of both parties, but one of them no longer exists, so it doesn't matter.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
If you can persuade the person before they die that it would be unfair to the living to deny them a funeral, then there will not be a decree 'no funeral', will there?
When my mother died, she left no instructions or desires for a funeral. My brothers and I thought about what she might like, not what we might like. In the end, it probably came to the same thing (brief and conventional), but that wasn't where it started. I wonder how you can purport to remember someone with love and respect when you are doing exactly what they've said they don't want.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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